YUANY SEMINAR 2016

[22:35:44] DSS [45cf0975@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.207.9.117] has joined ##ursoul
[22:35:48] *XJR-9* All right, starting now
[22:35:54] <@SilverCrono> ohi
[22:36:00] <XJR-9> Oh, good timing, DSS~
[22:36:08] <Eight-bit> that burgundy text
[22:36:26] <DSS> hello
[22:36:40] <@NeoZEROX> Why was that text look different?
[22:36:48] <@SilverCrono> ?
[22:36:50] <XJR-9> It should ping everyone, I think?
[22:36:57] <@NeoZEROX> Nope
[22:37:07] SilverCrono saw no such text, & was not ping'd
[22:37:28] <XJR-9> I forgot the command, then 8D
[22:37:35] <Eight-bit> the end result was similar
[22:37:44] <@NeoZEROX> Allow me
[22:38:49] <@NeoZEROX> SilverCrono Armageddon11 Cluna DSS Eight-bit Technobliterator Xepscern:  PING!
[22:38:50] <@NeoZEROX> SilverCrono Armageddon11 Cluna DSS Eight-bit Technobliterator Xepscern:  PING!
[22:38:52] <@NeoZEROX> SilverCrono Armageddon11 Cluna DSS Eight-bit Technobliterator Xepscern:  PING!
[22:38:53] <@NeoZEROX> SilverCrono Armageddon11 Cluna DSS Eight-bit Technobliterator Xepscern:  PING!
[22:38:55] <@SilverCrono> why
[22:38:55] <@NeoZEROX> SilverCrono Armageddon11 Cluna DSS Eight-bit Technobliterator Xepscern:  PING!
[22:38:57] <DSS> gah
[22:38:57] <@NeoZEROX> :3
[22:38:59] <XJR-9> lol
[22:39:08] <@SilverCrono> u probly woke arma up >_> gg
[22:39:09] <Eight-bit> hue
[22:39:11] <@NeoZEROX> FUFUFUFU
[22:39:17] <XJR-9> He told me to wake him up
[22:39:20] <XJR-9> When I was starting
[22:39:39] <XJR-9> All righty
[22:39:40] <@SilverCrono> o tru
[22:40:01] <XJR-9> So unlike Xepscern's specific "do nots", I'm going to be talking about principles of character writing instead
[22:40:40] <XJR-9> This isn't a "fill in the blank" for every character template, but essentially ideas to keep in mind when doing character writing (mostly focused on character conception this session)
[22:40:56] <XJR-9> A couple of things to go through before I get into the principles
[22:41:03] <XJR-9> 1) Interrupt at any time / ask for examples 8D
[22:41:42] <XJR-9> 2) Strength of writing breaks any rule. However, you need to know the effect of the rule first, so you can understand the effect of breaking it.
[22:42:25] <XJR-9> 3) EVERYTHING you write related to a character must relate back to the purpose of the character. The character fits in the story, both plot and effect.
[22:42:46] <XJR-9> 3a) The overall purpose of a story is not to bore the reader. Cardinal rule. DO NOT EVER BREAK.
[22:43:12] SilverCrono raises hand
[22:43:18] <XJR-9> Yes?
[22:43:43] <@SilverCrono> mrs. yuany! are you saying we should make characters expressly for their purpose in the story, rather than makin cool dudes??
[22:43:52] <XJR-9> Cronopls
[22:44:05] Eight-bit throws a paper ball at Crono
[22:44:06] <XJR-9> Yes, story and characters should be woven together.
[22:44:13] <XJR-9> And now I will shoot you.
[22:44:15] <@SilverCrono> ._.
[22:44:17] XJR-9 sprays with a watergun
[22:44:21] <@SilverCrono> [hissss]
[22:44:32] NeoZEROX cast down cold water on Crono
[22:44:37] <@SilverCrono> [HISSSS]
[22:44:51] <XJR-9> 3b) Purpose is further subdivided into Doylist and Watsonist purposes/explanations.
[22:45:01] <XJR-9> This basically means out-of-universe and in-universe reasons.
[22:45:14] <XJR-9> Ideally, every action of your character has both explanations.
[22:45:32] <XJR-9> For example, in the Lord of the Rings, they don't call up the eagles to fly them to Mount Doom and chuck the ring in.
[22:46:05] <XJR-9> The Watsonist, in-universe explanation, is that the eagles are proud and don't want to be used as a taxi service (alsoo mind-corruption of thing carrying you in the air = bad)
[22:46:15] <XJR-9> The Doylist explanation is there would be no effing story.
[22:47:11] <XJR-9> Murder your darlings, children. If you write a bit of character fluff and it serves no purpose in the story, then heavily consider cutting it.
[22:47:14] <Eight-bit> Would you say that the Doylist necessity often prompts a Watsonist explanation?
[22:47:24] <XJR-9> Yes.
[22:47:50] <XJR-9> And if it makes your Watsonist explanation stretch too much, altering the way the characters act, then you'll probably need to change it.
[22:48:14] <XJR-9> Ideally, character and plot should not be subservient to each other.
[22:48:56] <XJR-9> If your plot requires your characters to all suddenly become idiots, it's really bad.
[22:49:20] <@SilverCrono> !!!
[22:49:31] <XJR-9> Whether that means conflict created because they stop communicating, or if they randomly start getting along well for no reason, or they don't notice really obvious things.
[22:50:07] <XJR-9> All right, that's the pre-ramble. Any questions so far before I move onto the principles :?
[22:50:23] <@SilverCrono> no from me
[22:50:37] <Eight-bit> nope
[22:50:53] <@NeoZEROX> When you said murder your darlings, I get idea actually people off. .-.
[22:50:59] <@NeoZEROX> *kill
[22:52:37] <Cluna> Sorry. I was eating dinner.
[22:52:58] <XJR-9> Cluna: Want a few minutes to read what I've posted so far?
[22:53:10] <@NeoZEROX> Cluna late for class!
[22:53:55] <Cluna> Reading through it now.
[22:54:25] <@SilverCrono> NeoZEROX: sometimes that is what that means
[22:54:25] <XJR-9> Let me know when caught up
[22:54:50] <Cluna> Caught up.
[22:54:52] <@SilverCrono> often times though, it can just mean that you need to introduce problems and conflicts to the characters you like
[22:55:01] <@NeoZEROX> I have slight problem killing someone off, it make me feel guilty
[22:55:03] <@SilverCrono> (bc u like them so much u might tend to make them succeed and become Mary Sues)
[22:55:10] <Cluna> I already know that no Goku or Sephy ripoffs are allowed. :3
[22:55:20] <XJR-9> It actually means chop the writing you like most :P
[22:55:24] <XJR-9> KILL YOUR BABIES
[22:55:28] <@SilverCrono> introducing problems / conflicts not only moves plot but can also provide tests / growths to characters
[22:55:40] <@NeoZEROX> I can't kill Clair. ; ;
[22:55:55] <DSS> i have a lot of deleting to do
[22:55:55] <@NeoZEROX> Everyone would hate me.
[22:56:10] <Cluna> At least Clair has a purpose.
[22:56:10] <XJR-9> So the five principles I'm going to talk about are: Arc, Agency, Tension, Coherence and Relatability.
[22:56:37] <XJR-9> When you think about each of these principles, remember to consider it in the framework of your purpose, which I'll keep going back to.
[22:56:43] <@NeoZEROX> DSS delete? .-.
[22:57:50] <XJR-9> Firstly, Arc. Your character should evolve over the course of the story. This should be an emotional arc, not just a physical one.
[22:58:00] <XJR-9> (Obviously, this applies mostly to major characters)
[22:58:11] <@SilverCrono> tru
[22:58:28] <XJR-9> Questions to ask are: what does your character want? Do they get what they want? How do they struggle to get it?
[22:58:40] <XJR-9> They should change *during* the story. Backstory is not a character arc.
[22:59:01] <XJR-9> How does this fit into the story? Events will happen in it - how will they respond and grow to this?
[22:59:36] <XJR-9> You should have an idea of how the character begins and ends, and then work out how, organically, they might get to that position.
[23:00:04] SilverCrono raises his hand
[23:00:12] XJR-9 aims the watergun. Yes?
[23:00:25] <@SilverCrono> what do you think of killing / messing with characters before their arc is concluded?
[23:00:40] <@SilverCrono> pointless exploration of characters, or well-done application of unpredictable and realistic tragedy?
[23:00:50] <DSS> good question
[23:00:58] <XJR-9> I think it can be done effectively in order to create tragedy.
[23:01:19] <XJR-9> "They die" is a possible ending for their arc.
[23:01:56] <XJR-9> Also tie it back to purpose - do they fail because of their inability to overcome flaws? Do they die because your story is about helplessness, a ruthless world, failure?
[23:02:17] <XJR-9> If the latter, be careful not to make it too contrived.
[23:02:25] <Cluna> Game of Thrones is the answer for the latter.
[23:02:28] <XJR-9> If they fail because you wrote yourself into a corner, tough luck 8D
[23:03:26] <@SilverCrono> olos
[23:04:27] <XJR-9> Agency: probably the most important one for writers to learn, imo. It's not as intuitive as the others.
[23:05:31] <XJR-9> Agency is the ability of the character to influence their world, plot, direction etc. It's their way of effecting change.
[23:05:53] <XJR-9> They don't have to succeed in what they want to do - failures and conflict can arise in the story.
[23:06:16] <XJR-9> The key question to ask yourself is this: does the story just happen to the character?
[23:06:43] <XJR-9> Do we ever see them act, and do those acts have consequences, negative and positive?
[23:07:01] <XJR-9> If your main character has no agency, then the story is unlikely to be strong.
[23:07:22] <@SilverCrono> gg ff12
[23:07:50] <XJR-9> Vaan is not really the main character due to this, no :p
[23:07:53] <@NeoZEROX> I dunno what you talking about Vaan isn't main character. fufufu
[23:07:58] <XJR-9> This also applies equally to villains
[23:08:03] <XJR-9> Sauron is a terrible villain in LotR.
[23:08:21] <XJR-9> He does nothing directly. He sits in the tower and is scary, essentially.
[23:08:29] <XJR-9> The plot is all driven by the heroes acting towards him.
[23:08:46] <@NeoZEROX> I don't even remember him tbh
[23:08:51] <XJR-9> ^precisely :P
[23:09:01] <XJR-9> Sorry, Neo, but this is also the failure of Cynthia in TC
[23:09:10] <XJR-9> She does nothing. She's passive and is dragged around by the plot.
[23:09:29] <@NeoZEROX> I know. I fail horrible in TC
[23:09:48] <@NeoZEROX> I try not make that mistake with Clair >>
[23:09:54] <Eight-bit> it perhaps doesn't help that I went and possessed her for a good three chapters or so
[23:10:36] <@NeoZEROX> I can fix in TC2 hopefully!
[23:10:42] <@NeoZEROX> I hope. ; ;
[23:10:42] <Armageddon11> or that time Avec kidnapped her...
[23:11:01] <@NeoZEROX> So not complete my fault!
[23:11:04] <Armageddon11> but hey, learning experiences
[23:11:14] <Armageddon11> just mostly
[23:11:29] <@NeoZEROX> people just grab her or Oracle with out asking me anything.
[23:11:30] <Armageddon11> Neo. just mostly
[23:11:57] <XJR-9> I think key to this is also allowing your characters to make mistakes and then deal with them.
[23:12:16] <@SilverCrono> (i am very happy that so far Victor is checking all these boxes xD)
[23:12:19] <XJR-9> It's knowing what your characters want. All your characters should want something.
[23:12:57] <XJR-9> SilverCrono: Yeah, Victor's great. I think TL didn't appeal to me partly because the plot just kind of happened to the characters.
[23:13:01] <XJR-9> Especially Cher.
[23:13:41] <Cluna> TL?
[23:13:50] <XJR-9> Crono's sci-fi story.
[23:13:51] <Eight-bit> The Liberator
[23:13:53] <Cluna> Oh
[23:13:57] <@NeoZEROX> So has Clair been go with this so far, just like know >>
[23:14:01] <@NeoZEROX> *good
[23:14:19] <Cluna> At least you haven't gotten very far yet.
[23:14:32] <XJR-9> Haven't read enough of EoD to know about arc.
[23:14:37] <@NeoZEROX> ; ;
[23:14:41] <XJR-9> Agency OK so far.
[23:14:56] <XJR-9> But like I said, these aren't really criteria to fill out, checkboxes to tick
[23:15:03] <@SilverCrono> fair point, yuany
[23:15:04] <XJR-9> They are principles to think around
[23:16:34] <XJR-9> Next point :?
[23:17:05] <DSS> these aren't checkboxes, but they aren't exactly really optional either ?
[23:17:40] <XJR-9> You can break the rules. You just have to know what that's going to do, and to have a damn good reason for doing so.
[23:18:13] <XJR-9> I also mean that you don't have to write a sheet for each character with: arc = , agency = , tension = etc and grade each of them from S-F.
[23:20:53] <XJR-9> Does that make sense?
[23:21:01] <DSS> Yes it does thank you
[23:21:26] <XJR-9> Third principle: Tension. I've talked about this a little in relation to Irina.
[23:22:02] <XJR-9> To me, this means understanding the central tenets of the character and/or the world, and how they oppose each other.
[23:22:34] <XJR-9> So first the tenets: what is the character's purpose? What do they want? What is their identity?
[23:23:00] <XJR-9> Tension can be between the character and the world: what the character wants is not what the world wants, placing them in conflict.
[23:23:11] <XJR-9> It can be between a character and another character.
[23:24:12] <XJR-9> And it can be within the character themselves. Two parts of their identity. Irina as artist and Irina as destruction, as in my initial example.
[23:25:03] <XJR-9> Emile and Osric are both examples of the first kind of tension. They know who they fundamentally are, and this is in conflict with the nature of the suffering world. The tension is generated by how they react to that.
[23:26:16] <XJR-9> Between characters: well, this is the fundamental of the buddy cop genre.
[23:26:34] <XJR-9> It's also how Fencing Lessons works. The tenets of the Pelharms which relate well to each other and which conflict.
[23:26:47] <Eight-bit> "They know who they fundamentally are" - is there a danger with limiting a character's arc by being too rigid with their intended function of tension? Or is that alleviated by a resolution in that tension?
[23:27:10] <XJR-9> Yes. It can affect their arc.
[23:27:39] <XJR-9> Emile's development is largely over. He's an older man. So his character is pretty rigid - the arc is more to do with the audience's discovery of his character, seeing more nuances to it.
[23:28:02] <XJR-9> However, a person who knows who they fundamentally are can also be challenged strongly by the story and be forced to change - or break in the process.
[23:28:29] <XJR-9> An example of this is in Sandman. Dream tries so, so hard to change. But eventually he cannot, so he commits suicide and is reborn, essentially.
[23:29:22] <Armageddon11> rip
[23:30:53] <XJR-9> In most cases, at least one part of the tension should arise from the character themselves.
[23:31:26] <XJR-9> This personalises the conflict which occurs in your work, minimising the likelihood of the plot happening around the character, or the character being interchangeable with another one.
[23:31:58] <XJR-9> You can have multiple types of tension occur in the same story and involving the same character, of course.
[23:32:42] <XJR-9> Having the character be in conflict with themselves is a great way to introduce variation in their character so they don't feel so one-note, and establish a possible character arc to resolve that.
[23:33:12] <@SilverCrono> >the character being interchangeable with another one.
[23:33:13] <@SilverCrono> !!!
[23:33:16] <@SilverCrono> big concern
[23:33:34] <XJR-9> I am a big fan of the idea of plot and character being deeply intertwined.
[23:34:17] <XJR-9> Which I will talk about a bit more with the next principle: Coherence.
[23:34:36] <XJR-9> ...it's a stupid name for this principle and I couldn't think of a better one, so pls help X_X
[23:35:02] <XJR-9> By Coherence, I mean that the character makes coherent sense as a person.
[23:35:08] <Eight-bit> are you referring to consistency? Unity?
[23:35:10] <@SilverCrono> Believability?
[23:35:13] <XJR-9> This covers several ideas, yes.
[23:35:21] <Eight-bit> something disparate from relatability
[23:35:21] <XJR-9> Are they portrayed consistently?
[23:35:43] <XJR-9> Do they feel "complete", with ideas, goals, principles, emotional variability.
[23:36:15] <XJR-9> This principle is about having a strong, coherent idea of the character in mind.
[23:36:55] <XJR-9> You want to get to the point where you know how they would react to other characters and plot, because they are like a a real person.
[23:37:20] <XJR-9> The ideal is, as I hinted at above, the plot could *only* happen that way because that character is the way they are.
[23:37:43] <XJR-9> The way tragic heroes fail because of their unique flaws.
[23:38:08] <@SilverCrono> truuuu
[23:38:33] <@SilverCrono> Eight-bit: i would say this is about a character feeling real, wheras relatability would be if their choices make sense
[23:38:38] <@SilverCrono> i thincc
[23:39:17] <XJR-9> When the audience reads the way a character acts in your works, they should think, "yes, this makes perfect sense that this character would act in this way"
[23:39:34] <Eight-bit> so this is a logistic sort of view
[23:39:53] <XJR-9> It's kind of two main ideas in coherence - completeness and logic.
[23:39:55] <Eight-bit> whereas relatability is more of an emotional lens?
[23:40:33] <XJR-9> Relatability is about understanding the character and emotionally connecting to them in the context of purpose.
[23:41:09] <XJR-9> So when you think of the character, you should be thinking about how you want the audience to feel towards them.
[23:41:21] <XJR-9> Hate them? Sympathise? Roll eyes at? Admire?
[23:41:40] <XJR-9> Should we loathe them for their flaws or support them anyway, wanting them to overcome them?
[23:42:33] <XJR-9> This is what I was talking about with Alice. She's crazy and unlikeable by her personality. So you need to be clear whether the reader is supposed to end up liking her/sympathising etc. - and then how you're going to get there.
[23:43:49] <XJR-9> A tragic backstory where the character is endlessly crushed is never a substitute for arousing the audience's sympathy through writing.
[23:44:07] <DSS> I like Alice because she is the way she is...idk how realisitic it is to try and make everyone feel a certain way about X character? People have different tastes after all
[23:44:09] <XJR-9> If you want the audience to care, you have to work for it. You need them to relate to the character in some way. You need them to be invested in the character's struggle.
[23:44:34] <DSS> That's why you love Oavyce and I do not
[23:44:41] <XJR-9> DSS: As I said, it depends on the purpose.
[23:44:59] <XJR-9> And yes, you definitely should think about the effect on the audience.
[23:45:41] <XJR-9> Back to the cardinal rule: don't bore the reader.
[23:45:49] <XJR-9> Don't do things for no reason. Always keep effect in mind.
[23:46:05] <@NeoZEROX> So on that note I should be doing good job with Coatl as he is plan to be hateable
[23:46:17] <XJR-9> Of course you can't make everyone feel the same way about the character. That's not the point.
[23:46:30] <XJR-9> The point is to try for a particular effect and to get people invested. It won't always work.
[23:46:40] <XJR-9> But you should know your audience and how to affect that target audience.
[23:46:46] <DSS> I'm already invested in alice and coatl though .-.
[23:47:00] <@SilverCrono> bc youve known about them for years lmao
[23:47:07] <@SilverCrono> every reader aint gonna do that
[23:47:26] <XJR-9> Neo is the author. We're talking about his purpose here.
[23:48:19] <XJR-9> The difficulty with unlikeable characters is to write them in such a way that the audience still wants to read them.
[23:49:46] <XJR-9> The point of this exercise is to think more critically about your own work and what effect it has.
[23:50:00] <XJR-9> So say I want a particular event to sadden the audience.
[23:50:11] <XJR-9> If 3 out of 5 people tell me they weren't sad, then I want to know why it didn't work.
[23:50:19] <XJR-9> And then I can adjust my writing based on that.
[23:52:08] <XJR-9> Ultimately, it's all a big balancing act with all these principles in mind...and this is even before you think more closely about execution!
[23:53:46] <Eight-bit> The situation we're in with DCI is pretty unique, as we do have character concepts floating around for a while before they are attached to a story
[23:54:01] <XJR-9> To make a character relateable, we have tools such as flaws, shared humanity, verisimilitude...
[23:54:09] <Eight-bit> it's a different viewpoint than someone picking up a Twilight Crystal book and reading it all the way through
[23:56:44] <Armageddon11> a blessing and a curse, really
[23:57:08] <@NeoZEROX> I feel worry if I could do all this, but could just be my low self esteem fucking with me again >>
[23:57:55] <XJR-9> I guess with relatability, it's about characters making sense based on the audience's experiences, whereas coherence is about characters making sense within their own (the character's) logic
[23:58:57] <@SilverCrono> well neo most of these apply to main characters lol
[23:59:07] <@SilverCrono> i dont think you would have to go through this whole gambit for every single character
[23:59:14] <@SilverCrono> (though that couldnt hurt)
[00:00:10] <XJR-9> One sec gu ga interruption
[00:00:55] <@SilverCrono> gu ga = newfangled way of saying gg ?
[00:01:00] <@SilverCrono> league is evolving
[00:01:38] <Eight-bit> le aunt
[00:02:34] <XJR-9> Le grand aunt #4
[00:02:56] <XJR-9> After a while, it becomes automatic
[00:02:58] <@SilverCrono> o :[ rip league
[00:03:23] <XJR-9> So that's the character principles. To finish off, a brief note on execution.
[00:03:53] <XJR-9> Characters should have distinguishable voices
[00:04:06] <@NeoZEROX> And yeah the thing with Alice is, I do feel there this wall I don't know how get around is, I guess I feel in way Alice is this child who suffer through abusive "parent" (in way) And doesn't have any good human contact with anyone else beside Max in her childhood. So for her she just doesn't know herself how to react to without being violent herself, and can't figure who is willing help her,...
[00:04:07] <@NeoZEROX> ...only person who does understand her is Max and he worst off then Alice from what I'm getting.
[00:05:34] <XJR-9> The most obvious expression of voice is in language
[00:06:04] <XJR-9> Formality, eloquence, how they speak, what they would express
[00:06:25] <XJR-9> Silence. What they don't say. That's very important
[00:06:30] <@SilverCrono> ooo ^
[00:06:39] <XJR-9> (Imo Ace does this well)
[00:07:05] <XJR-9> Does it make sense for your characters to randomly declaim their feelings in super structured ways?
[00:07:20] <XJR-9> I am constantly on Crono's back for this 8D
[00:08:15] <XJR-9> Catchphrases are really lazy ways of characterising voices
[00:08:27] <XJR-9> Would not recommend as a crutch
[00:08:33] <Eight-bit> s i l e n c e
[00:09:05] <@SilverCrono> forgive
[00:09:07] <@SilverCrono> i am weak
[00:10:16] <XJR-9> Think of other ways as well
[00:10:20] <XJR-9> Body language
[00:10:27] <XJR-9> Who they would talk to
[00:10:34] <XJR-9> How their thoughts are expressed
[00:10:42] <@SilverCrono> inb4victonlytalkstosuzuri
[00:10:51] <XJR-9> Facial expressions. How they express feelingsm
[00:10:56] <XJR-9> How they react.
[00:11:32] <XJR-9> All these things contribute to making your character feel unique, complete, effective.
[00:11:42] <XJR-9> And more than just a bundle of tropes.
[00:11:57] <XJR-9> Thanks for reading my ramble
[00:12:07] <XJR-9> Questions?
[00:13:03] <@SilverCrono> im gucci
[00:13:29] <@NeoZEROX> So silence is best way go with Alice or am I missing something? >>
[00:14:46] <Armageddon11> facial expressions i find tricky, i run out quickly
[00:16:05] <Eight-bit> me gusta
[00:16:28] <Eight-bit> i have a question relating to that bit on expression
[00:16:56] <Eight-bit> I find it hard sometimes to appropriately preface or shape a character's spoken word when they do actually have to say something
[00:17:49] <XJR-9> By that you mean the verb used?
[00:18:05] <Eight-bit> yesss.
[00:18:25] <Armageddon11> im going back to sleep now, ty for all this Yuan, ill take away what i can
[00:18:36] <XJR-9> Night Pocky
[00:18:44] <Eight-bit> byearma
[00:18:45] <XJR-9> Thanks for listening
[00:20:20] <Eight-bit> it's part of the reason why I am hiding behind talk bubbles for EN. But in that case I sometimes have the desire to frame the quote in the "normal" way, because it can be effective
[00:20:22] <XJR-9> Mmm, the advice I've heard is that one should aim to write in such a way that the tone of a character's voice is obvious without having to use adverbs or tags excessively
[00:20:33] <Eight-bit> I also spam the ellipsis a lot to try to capture pace
[00:20:34] <XJR-9> You don't need a tag for everything
[00:21:04] <XJR-9> So often I try to write freely, then subtract what is unneeded
[00:21:31] <@SilverCrono> i have been making an effort to cut down on tags / adverbs recently
[00:21:44] <@SilverCrono> the walls of descriptive actions i have in my early writing is disgusting
[00:22:52] <XJR-9> You don't have to write how they say it directly. You can also describe what they are doing.
[00:23:06] <XJR-9> David fidgets a loooooot >_>
[00:24:14] <XJR-9> I think the three main uses of tags would be:
[00:24:16] <Eight-bit> icic
[00:24:21] <XJR-9> To emphasise that tone
[00:24:35] <XJR-9> Because the tone and words create a contrast
[00:24:48] <XJR-9> Or because the tone/action is changing
[00:26:35] <XJR-9> Or because you have more than 2 speakers and riiiip 8D
[00:27:48] <XJR-9> NeoZEROX: These were more general principles.
[00:27:58] <XJR-9> You will want to relate them to Alice and develop her according to your desires.
[00:28:34] <DSS> what's a tag?
[00:30:29] <@NeoZEROX> Ah I see.
[00:30:33] <@SilverCrono> "Of course not, my lord," Vainia said, shaking her head in false disbelief. "All is as you say it is," she continued, mockingly.
[00:30:40] <@SilverCrono> tags bolded for elucidation
[00:31:17] <@SilverCrono> that could be simplified with: "Of course not, my lord. All is as you say it is," she lied.
[00:31:28] <@SilverCrono> or even removing any additions to the dialogue at all tbh
[00:31:45] <XJR-9> Attribution / tag / verb describing the way people say things
[00:33:28] <XJR-9> There's nothing wrong with using "X said".
[00:33:34] <XJR-9> Use a more descriptive word as necessary.
[00:33:42] <@NeoZEROX> I still feel this a lot taken in, but don't really want give up, just wish easier for me learn things. ; ;
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[00:34:42] <@SilverCrono> NeoZEROX: take logs and study them when u write bby
[00:35:19] <XJR-9> Practice bby
[00:35:58] <@NeoZEROX> Oh okay >>
[00:36:21] <XJR-9> NeoZEROX: In summary:
[00:36:23] <XJR-9> Characters change
[00:36:25] <XJR-9> Characters act
[00:36:29] <XJR-9> Characters have conflict
[00:36:32] <XJR-9> Characters make sense
[00:36:37] <XJR-9> Characters make the audience care
[00:36:39] <XJR-9> 8D
[00:37:15] <@NeoZEROX> lol that make little more sense to me.
[00:37:29] <DSS> so, how many tags is a good amount? when writing I get stuck because I feel the need to add tags to be more descriptive, because more descriptive is better than less descriptive
[00:37:47] <XJR-9> More descriptive is not always better than less descriptive.
[00:37:50] <XJR-9> No hard or fast rules.
[00:38:32] <XJR-9> I think as above, use them when needed for clarity, emphasis, contrast and change.
[00:53:43] <@NeoZEROX> I kinda wanna bring this up again but is there trick of write for someone you wish be hate able?
[00:55:38] <DSS> I feel its easier to write a character to be hateable rather than writing one to be likeable, which is what I struggle with
[00:56:03] <Cluna> Can I make up another rule? Like no more male main characters being so oblivious to love as is common in animes?
[00:56:36] <Eight-bit> who breaks that rule?
[00:57:11] <@NeoZEROX> Well there two ways I see that work they could just hate them for poor they're written is which is bad
[00:57:22] <@NeoZEROX> I'm more aiming for actions they did
[00:57:40] <XJR-9> NeoZEROX: Don't make it too easy for them to win. Don't make their evil too contrived.
[00:58:14] <XJR-9> Use their evil selectively.
[00:58:25] <XJR-9> A character who kills puppies constantly loses effect.
[00:59:27] <@NeoZEROX> Ah, well least say with Coatl as only one has nothing redeemable, even May has something you can forgive her for but it hard.
[01:00:27] <XJR-9> I think they should have something to them other than pure eviiiiiiiiil as well
[01:01:03] <@NeoZEROX> Coatl something I wanna is person that want push something beyond edge either breaking them or having them become something like him, and just something of a game for him something he enjoy
[01:01:19] <@NeoZEROX> And I don't really wanna call him evil chaos fit him fine.
[01:02:57] <@NeoZEROX> He really doesn't know what he what really want he just does things because looks fun for him.
[01:03:02] <@SilverCrono> [00:58:25] <XJR-9> A character who kills puppies constantly loses effect.
[01:03:06] <@SilverCrono> Dio tho
[01:03:20] <@NeoZEROX> Pretty much push something and see what happens
[01:03:21] <@SilverCrono> best char in jjba and he literally kills puppies
[01:03:55] <Cluna> Eight-bit: Schroeder (though he's not main), Eren Yeagar, Guts (though he gets over it), Ichigo, Lelouch, Grey Fullbuster, Gajeel, Edward Elric (until the end)... There's quite a lot.
[01:03:58] <@NeoZEROX> Like he just convince Divina to rule as goddess she is just see what she would do and abuse her power
[01:04:16] <@SilverCrono> thats enough of me being distracting for tonight, im gonna sleep
[01:04:18] <@SilverCrono> night guys
[01:04:21] <@SilverCrono> thanks yuany
[01:04:29] <@NeoZEROX> Night Crono
[01:05:54] <@NeoZEROX> Cluna I fill a lot thos have more important things worry about then notice someone loves them.
[01:06:46] <Cluna> Oh
[01:07:15] <@NeoZEROX> Like Ed really work hard and research how restore his brother body back, so you can forgive him for that.
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