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X4 "Argument"

HamburgerSan Apr 5th, 2015 (edited) 347 Never
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  1. Since everyone keeps asking what this X4 "argument" is that is shitting up every stream chat since it makes absolutely no sense, Lazarus_DS attempts to solidify his position as the infamous shitlord of the MMX community by explaining his logically sound argument regarding recent leaderboard changes in this exclusive interview.
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  3. I highly recommend reading it because its absolutely hilarious, but for those who want a tl;dr, I will summarize.
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  5. A while ago, load time conversions were added for versions of X4 faster than console to make them comparable to console, and were later removed for a version that was proven slower than console by further testing.
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  7. Lazarus, who does not even play X4 mind you, says that this slower version "should not receive special time conversions--no wait, I mean it should!!!", because comparing a slower version to console is "idiotic"!! It must receive special conversions to make it even MORE slower than console because people with slower times on faster versions deserve wr!!!
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  9. Here's where it gets really good, lol. He didn't say why he thought this "idiotic" change was implemented in this chat, but he and Albert said it multiple times while talking shit in this skype call from this stream: http://www.twitch.tv/lawso42/b/644945042 (it's somewhere around 2 hours in, but I can't be bothered to listen to turbo nerd hyena laughter to find the exact time). Him and Albert were actually saying that I used my ~star power~ as the ~supreme WORLD RECORD HOLDER of the mmx series~ to STRONG ARM Joka into implementing this idiotic change! The same Joka who has publicly stated his gripes about me and Qttsix on emulator/keyboard SUCCUMBED to my ~WORLD RECORD HOLDING prowess~!!! Rofl. You know, not because I do research and provide objective data for every leaderboard change I propose or anything.
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  11. And despite talking copious amounts of shit while spreading complete and utter conjecture, these individuals(Albert in particular) hide behind the defense that anyone who even so much as mentions said shit-talk/conjecture is causing "drama", and they're not allowed to do that!! Lmao.
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  15. Apr 04 23:55:22 <biggusdickus> laz, explain this x4 argument i've been hearing about
  16. Apr 04 23:56:10 <lazarus_ds> Essentially, what it boils down to is that Hetfield went out of his way to get a rule change on the leaderboards for X4.
  17. Apr 04 23:56:29 <biggusdickus> changing what rule? time conversions?
  18. Apr 04 23:56:54 <lazarus_ds> He argues that since Japanese X4 on emulator has a ton of time loss compared to English X4, they shouldn't have to go through the time conversion that emulator otherwise has to due to faster load times.
  19. Apr 04 23:57:24 <biggusdickus> what is the difference in load times?
  20. Apr 04 23:57:34 <lazarus_ds> I don't know off of the top of my head.
  21. Apr 04 23:58:07 <biggusdickus> cause from what i've been told, this whole argument makes no sense because mopeyjoe's time is slower on a faster version
  22. Apr 04 23:58:32 <lazarus_ds> That doesn't make logical sense.
  23. Apr 04 23:58:39 <biggusdickus> how?
  24. Apr 04 23:58:51 <lazarus_ds> Because they're choosing to purposely play on a slower version.
  25. Apr 04 23:59:00 <lazarus_ds> They shouldn't get some special time calculation because of it.
  26. Apr 04 23:59:02 <biggusdickus> qtt is, and he has a faster time with it
  27. Apr 04 23:59:07 <biggusdickus> there is no calculation being done
  28. Apr 04 23:59:11 <biggusdickus> there is no time conversion done
  29. Apr 04 23:59:16 <lazarus_ds> Yes there is.
  30. Apr 04 23:59:25 <biggusdickus> no there isn't
  31. Apr 04 23:59:28 <biggusdickus> check there timers
  32. Apr 04 23:59:34 <biggusdickus> their*
  33. Apr 04 23:59:51 <lazarus_ds> There should be, I mean.
  34. Apr 05 00:00:01 <lazarus_ds> He's playing on a version that has faster load times than console.
  35. Apr 05 00:00:13 <lazarus_ds> They had a system set in place to increase emulator times based on that.
  36. Apr 05 00:00:32 <lazarus_ds> And Hetfield had that revoked, solely for the Japanese version, because that version is slower.
  37. Apr 05 00:00:34 <biggusdickus> it was removed because it's not consistent
  38. Apr 05 00:00:35 <lazarus_ds> That logic makes no sense.
  39. Apr 05 00:00:51 <biggusdickus> joka controls the boards, not hetfield
  40. Apr 05 00:01:05 <lazarus_ds> Hetfield is the one who suggested it.
  41. Apr 05 00:01:18 <lazarus_ds> And he only suggested it because he and Qtt were butthurt that Mopey got the WR.
  42. Apr 05 00:01:22 <biggusdickus> and joka has to agree to the change based on information by all parties
  43. Apr 05 00:01:33 <lazarus_ds> Also, there are still time conversions.
  44. Apr 05 00:01:35 <lazarus_ds> Go look at the board.
  45. Apr 05 00:01:43 <biggusdickus> look at 100% X, there aren't any
  46. Apr 05 00:01:50 <biggusdickus> for zero there are
  47. Apr 05 00:02:11 <lazarus_ds> Due to lack of submissions.
  48. Apr 05 00:02:23 <lazarus_ds> If there were any emulator US submissions, they'd have time conversion.
  49. Apr 05 00:02:29 <lazarus_ds> Just like the PC version does.
  50. Apr 05 00:02:31 <lazarus_ds> For the same reason.
  51. Apr 05 00:02:37 <lazarus_ds> PC version also has faster load times.
  52. Apr 05 00:03:09 <biggusdickus> is this documented anywhere so that I can see the time difference?
  53. Apr 05 00:03:17 <biggusdickus> I don't see why joka would agree to the change if it didn't make sense
  54. Apr 05 00:03:59 <lazarus_ds> http://pastebin.com/fbiAqSXZ
  55. Apr 05 00:04:04 <lazarus_ds> That's the evidence that Hetfield gave.
  56. Apr 05 00:04:41 <lazarus_ds> His argument is that it would be impossible for X4 Japanese to ever have an advantage over X4 English.
  57. Apr 05 00:05:00 <lazarus_ds> So the X4 Japanese emulator runs shouldn't have time conversions, like the X4 English emulator runs do.
  58. Apr 05 00:05:18 <lazarus_ds> Which is idiotic.
  59. Apr 05 00:05:25 <biggusdickus> did you actually read this?
  60. Apr 05 00:05:26 <lazarus_ds> It's bending the rules that other people have to deal with.
  61. Apr 05 00:05:28 <lazarus_ds> Yes.
  62. Apr 05 00:05:38 <biggusdickus> cause this argument makes no sense based on that pastebin
  63. Apr 05 00:05:48 <lazarus_ds> Because...?
  64. Apr 05 00:06:05 <nrgzam> what's idiotic about letting a slow version be slow while bringing a too fast version down to an official version's speed?
  65. Apr 05 00:06:23 <biggusdickus> because the difference in load time is less than the difference in language differences, so english  on console is faster
  66. Apr 05 00:06:51 <lazarus_ds> That doesn't mean the rule shouldn't exist.
  67. Apr 05 00:07:42 <lazarus_ds> Zam: What Hetfield did isn't letting a slow version be slow. It's giving a slow version an advantage to make it the same as the fastest version.
  68. Apr 05 00:07:51 <biggusdickus> how?
  69. Apr 05 00:07:52 <nrgzam> because then you get one of two annoying situations, an inaccurate emulator is the standard, or you get like 100 different leaderboards
  70. Apr 05 00:08:12 <nrgzam> what are you even talking about lmao
  71. Apr 05 00:08:29 <nrgzam> if emulator jp has an overall disadvantage of time, then theres no need for a conversion because it's S L O W
  72. Apr 05 00:08:41 <nrgzam> which is exactly the case, as you linked
  73. Apr 05 00:08:46 <lazarus_ds> How is there no need for a time conversion if it's still getting load time advantages?
  74. Apr 05 00:08:48 <biggusdickus> what zam said
  75. Apr 05 00:08:52 <biggusdickus> it's not laz
  76. Apr 05 00:08:56 <lazarus_ds> They don't just stop existing because it has another penalty.
  77. Apr 05 00:08:58 <lazarus_ds> YES IT DOES.
  78. Apr 05 00:08:59 <biggusdickus> did you read the pastebin you linked?
  79. Apr 05 00:09:03 <lazarus_ds> Yes. Did you?
  80. Apr 05 00:09:20 <biggusdickus> it says english has a 38 second advantage, which is more than the 36 second load time
  81. Apr 05 00:09:23 <biggusdickus> in emulator
  82. Apr 05 00:09:26 <lazarus_ds> There are 37s of load time advantages.
  83. Apr 05 00:09:31 <lazarus_ds> That doesn't make the advantage stop existing.
  84. Apr 05 00:09:39 <nrgzam> and 38+ seconds of voice clip disadvantage
  85. Apr 05 00:09:39 <lazarus_ds> It just means that they've got another issue entirely that makes it slower.
  86. Apr 05 00:09:45 <lazarus_ds> So?
  87. Apr 05 00:09:50 <lazarus_ds> They're CHOOSING to play the slower version.
  88. Apr 05 00:09:59 <nrgzam> so its slower overall, so you dont need to mess with it
  89. Apr 05 00:09:59 <lazarus_ds> That doesn't mean they get to be exempt from the time conversion from load time advantage.
  90. Apr 05 00:10:00 <biggusdickus> and they get no advantage for doing so
  91. Apr 05 00:10:04 <lazarus_ds> That's idiotic.
  92. Apr 05 00:10:05 <biggusdickus> and qtt does a better time with it
  93. Apr 05 00:10:16 <nrgzam> how is it idiotic? lol
  94. Apr 05 00:10:41 <lazarus_ds> Because you're saying because they choose to play a slower version, they should be allowed to get 37s in free load time.
  95. Apr 05 00:10:56 <biggusdickus> because they lose 38 seconds on the slower version
  96. Apr 05 00:11:02 <nrgzam> that's not what im saying at all, or anyone else
  97. Apr 05 00:11:05 <lazarus_ds> They make that choice, though.
  98. Apr 05 00:11:09 <nrgzam> thats something you've made up completely
  99. Apr 05 00:11:11 <lazarus_ds> They are CHOOSING to play on a slower version.
  100. Apr 05 00:11:11 <biggusdickus> so?
  101. Apr 05 00:11:20 <lazarus_ds> I'm not making that up. That's exactly what you're saying.
  102. Apr 05 00:11:30 <lazarus_ds> That they have one disadvantage, so they shouldn't have to deal with two.
  103. Apr 05 00:11:56 <lazarus_ds> When one of the disadvantages is solely based on their choices on what version of the game to play.
  104. Apr 05 00:11:57 <biggusdickus> if qtt played on english emulator, I would understand your complaint
  105. Apr 05 00:12:02 <biggusdickus> but they don't
  106. Apr 05 00:12:04 <lazarus_ds> Why?
  107. Apr 05 00:12:16 <nrgzam> because then he'd have only advantage with no disadvantage
  108. Apr 05 00:12:16 <lazarus_ds> It's not like a console, where he can't just CHOOSE to download the fastest version and play it.
  109. Apr 05 00:12:17 <biggusdickus> because then they don't have a time loss compared to english console
  110. Apr 05 00:12:24 <lazarus_ds> Like everyone else who plays on emulator and wants a fast time.
  111. Apr 05 00:12:52 <lazarus_ds> Since when do we compare the slowest versions to the fastest one and make conversions to make sure all the other versions don't have a disadvantage?
  112. Apr 05 00:12:55 <lazarus_ds> We've NEVER done that before.
  113. Apr 05 00:13:04 <lazarus_ds> At least not on the MMX leaderboards.
  114. Apr 05 00:13:04 <biggusdickus> there isn't a conversion
  115. Apr 05 00:13:13 <lazarus_ds> Yes there is.
  116. Apr 05 00:13:26 <lazarus_ds> They're skipping out on the load time conversion.
  117. Apr 05 00:13:27 <biggusdickus> dude, are you not looking at the leaderboard? there is no conversion for 100% X
  118. Apr 05 00:13:46 <nrgzam> we don't make sure all the other versions don't have a disadvantage, we make sure other versions don't have an ADvantage
  119. Apr 05 00:14:10 <nrgzam> like if one unofficial garbage version is 400 years faster than another, clearly there's a problem with this one that needs adjusting
  120. Apr 05 00:14:16 <biggusdickus> japanese emulator has a greater disadvantage in time than an advantage in time, why would there be conversions?
  121. Apr 05 00:14:19 <nrgzam> we arent taking all the others and boosting them to match
  122. Apr 05 00:14:27 <lazarus_ds> Because there's still an advantage in load times.
  123. Apr 05 00:14:33 <biggusdickus> there isn't laz
  124. Apr 05 00:14:33 <lazarus_ds> Load times and speech times are completely separate things.
  125. Apr 05 00:14:36 <biggusdickus> the pastebin says there isn't
  126. Apr 05 00:14:38 <lazarus_ds> YES THERE IS.
  127. Apr 05 00:14:41 <biggusdickus> the one you linked to me
  128. Apr 05 00:14:42 <nrgzam> you keep saying that like it matters at all lol
  129. Apr 05 00:14:47 <lazarus_ds> THE GAME STILL LOADS FASTER ON EMULATOR.
  130. Apr 05 00:14:57 <nrgzam> yes they're separate things, but they're concurrent issues
  131. Apr 05 00:14:57 <lazarus_ds> It doesn't just disappear because they ALSO have voice acting.
  132. Apr 05 00:15:01 <nrgzam> as in, they both happen...
  133. Apr 05 00:15:02 <biggusdickus> and loses more time for language differences
  134. Apr 05 00:18:42 <nrgzam> they made the conversions specifically to not need multiple leaderboards for console/emu
  135. Apr 05 00:18:44 <lazarus_ds> Honestly, it pretty much should be that way.
  136. Apr 05 00:18:50 <biggusdickus> as long as emulator is slower than official hardware, people will allow them to be combined
  137. Apr 05 00:19:06 <lazarus_ds> Because the only reason X3 was combined was because Hetfield was able to show that emulator and console were basically the same.
  138. Apr 05 00:19:10 <lazarus_ds> Or close to it.
  139. Apr 05 00:19:18 <lazarus_ds> Emulator and console in this case are not even comparable.
  140. Apr 05 00:19:26 <biggusdickus> emulator lost time compared to console for x3
  141. Apr 05 00:19:39 <lazarus_ds> It's not even that.
  142. Apr 05 00:19:49 <lazarus_ds> They're choosing to play the Japanese version of the game because they can't stand the voice acting.
  143. Apr 05 00:19:57 <lazarus_ds> But the Japanese version is slower.
  144. Apr 05 00:20:14 <lazarus_ds> And it didn't matter until MopeyJoe got decent time on the US version on a console.
  145. Apr 05 00:20:22 <lazarus_ds> At which point Hetfield jumped in and came up with this.
  146. Apr 05 00:20:37 <biggusdickus> so in an equally well executed run with identical rng, the japanese version on emulator is slower than english on console, so why make conversions
  147. Apr 05 00:20:53 <nrgzam> because LOAD TIMES, dont you get it drantt?
  148. Apr 05 00:20:57 <biggusdickus> lol
  149. Apr 05 00:21:16 <lazarus_ds> For the same reason that up until recently, we didn't do stupid conversions for people playing on the English X2 or X3 carts.
  150. Apr 05 00:21:25 <lazarus_ds> They're CHOOSING to play on a slower version. They deal with the penalty of doing so.
  151. Apr 05 00:21:32 <lazarus_ds> That's how it always was up until that point.
  152. Apr 05 00:21:50 <dragonsbeard> If we are going to make things complicated. Then if load times being faster while voice acting makes it slower making time around the same. Conversion seems pointless
  153. Apr 05 00:22:08 <nrgzam> thats exactly the case
  154. Apr 05 00:22:13 <lazarus_ds> Except it's also more complicated than that.
  155. Apr 05 00:22:21 <lazarus_ds> The voice acting is based on RNG.
  156. Apr 05 00:22:26 <lazarus_ds> So it changes every run.
  157. Apr 05 00:22:33 <lazarus_ds> And it can be a lot shorter or a lot longer, depending on RNG.
  158. Apr 05 00:22:35 <nrgzam> yeah, and the best case scenario is still slower
  159. Apr 05 00:22:36 <nesszors> i think there should be a separate category for each possible rng
  160. Apr 05 00:22:42 <nesszors> that way it's fair
  161. Apr 05 00:22:44 <nrgzam> Keepo
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