unnecesarily long zelkov pontificating

Let me preface *this* with the fact that I have never, ever heavily streamlined an Engage playthrough. As such, I don’t recycle everything, I don’t micromanage EXP or SP, I don’t focus on “optimality” unless it’s in regards to thinking about what units I’m using and how much effort it’ll likely take to get them off of the ground. I have no idea what makes a forge “more” or “less” necessary outside of the context of a given map (eg I’m not exactly forging weapons a few maps early to hit specific benchmarks).

Does this make me unqualified to talk about what is “low investment” and “high investment?” After reading your post, yes. Absolutely. You cover a lot of things that I glossed over because you’re clearly thinking about this a level or two deeper than I am.

I’m not advocating for Zelkov to be artificially level limited. I’m arguing that you don’t have to give him much attention to hit level 21 by chapter 17, and because of that he’ll hit it in the background instead of requiring heavy use or attention to get there. If you want to use thief Zelkov more aggressively and actually get more things done with him instead of using him for filler combat and chip in the midgame, more power to you! My argument was that, because you didn’t have to push him that hard, it’s easy to get him to the levels he needs with minimal effort. I thought that was “low cost”. Maybe I was wrong.

After that, I saw that I had all the tools I needed for him to get there just sitting in the convoy. You get spears the chapter before you reclass him so you have no chance to recycle them. You get Represailles and literally can’t recycle it. Hey, look at that, I can pivot him out of thief and he’ll be able to use top tier weapons that I just *have*. I thought that was “low cost”. Maybe I was wrong.

The spear penalty being referred to as “livable” is in stark contrast to someone like Amber or Goldmary who end up even slower than Zelkov, enough so that a decent number of enemies start doubling them if they use them. Stat fixing is cheaper for Zelkov than it is for them in that regard. I thought that was “low cost”. Maybe I was wrong.

The argument about lances was 100% me being reductive and I’m glad you called me on it. That being said, I think lances kinda suck compared to swords and axes because many units will likely specialize in one of those instead for their low weight or high might and leave lances hanging out to dry. This isn’t helped by the fact that the levin sword is so good, so hybrid classes will likely go the way of the sword. My first and second playthroughs both had exactly one unit using lances before chapter 21 rolled around. (Chloe had been benched on my blind run and pivoted to sword griffin on my next one because, as mentioned above, the levin sword is so good). This wasn’t even intentional! It just happened naturally! The idea that nobody will be using lances isn’t *entirely* unreasonable, though it’s definitely much more unreasonable than I made it sound.

The argument about having weapons like silvers and steels hanging around was because I never really wanted lots of SP past Canter. In the early game there wasn’t much I wanted (though I guess someone could’ve grabbed sword power or lance power) and in the midgame I was now being kneecapped by bond crystals keeping me from just tossing Speed +5 on everyone rather than being limited by SP. As such, I wasn’t hurling literally all my unused belongings down there, especially because I’m not a fan of throwing away something I might use later. Gambling may be fun, but not having enough gear to properly function off of is not, and I was worried about ending up in that situation. I was unaware that incredibly heavy well use was considered the standard. I guess now I know.

That’s why I mentioned the steel and silver lances, by the way. I just had them lying around because I never felt a need to recycle them. Calling out the monetary cost of letting them rot in the convoy is kinda just making a mountain out of a molehill when the game hands you so much money that you’ll probably never run out unless you max donate for an S weapon. I never ran into money troubles even on my first playthrough when I made a bunch of dumb decisions. The relative SP cost of not recycling them is a bigger deal, though. I guess. I clearly do not know enough to say with certainty (THIS STATEMENT IS NOT FACETIOUS I SWEAR PLEASE BELIEVE ME).

I’m definitely stupid about forges and will happily admit it. I don’t *know* what the thought process behind viable forges is; I just put investment into key stuff like effective weaponry before I put a level into a unit’s main weaponry or more if it’s cost-effective (or immediately relevant for benchmarks). These questions are therefore borne of confusion rather than trying to poke holes in logic. When I add a unit to the team, their forges will be on the grocery list whether they join in chapter 7 or chapter 17. If you were to start using Saphir, for instance, would the fact that you don’t already have forges for her make her more costly in your eyes? If everyone wants a number of forges, what does it matter how late someone starts wanting them? I guess if you’re worried about abandoning a +3 silver dagger from the midgame this could be an issue, but is a +3 silver dagger or even a +3 steel really necessary for the midgame? I’m so far removed from the forging metagame that I didn’t realize those kinds of heavy forges in the earlygame and midgame were considered necessities. I’m sorry about that.

I’m still a little lost on the “twice as many forges as other units” part, though. If you’re counting silver daggers, that’s one forge when you mentioned that many units need more than two already, so twice is a drastic overstatement. If you’re not counting silver daggers, Zelkov wants exactly as many forges as another Halberdier would, except he wants them later, which seems like it would be an upside because the higher-priority forges would’ve been done already and competition would be lower (putting him at slot, I dunno, 5/15 on the queue rather than 10/20 were the top five forges already done). Plus he only needs one weapon type. Given my track record, I’m probably just missing something obvious.

Also, just for the record, I think forging killer weapons is a waste of resources outside of dedicated crit builds due to their relatively low might, but at that point we’re reaching plain playstyle differences and actual discussion will break down.

Calling thief a class that “doubles with low investment” is true for the midgame, but it’s sidestepping the issue that enemies get really fast and really physically bulky lategame, and thieves end up having to invest in heavily forged daggers in order to hit the damage numbers that other units are pulling out with much less costly forges. Going Halberdier is almost an upgrade in that respect, because at that point enemies are either getting really bulky or really fast, making thieves struggle to do much to either, so doubling down on strength and abusing an ability to force doubles seemed like a better and less costly way to get lategame value out of Zelkov than throwing all my strength boosting stuff on him and having him about on par with someone who isn’t using a strong lategame forge. Maybe I’m salty from Fixed Maddening Yunaka having pitiful damage, or maybe I’m just unaware that thief is actually a great lategame class and I’m just an idiot. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised by this point. But that’s at least where I’m coming from in terms of getting Zelkov out of thief. It’s a way for a midgame unit to meaningfully contribute in the lategame.

I legitimately considered the cost of Zelkov to be the bond crystals required to get him lance proficiency and the second seal he needs to get out of thief (which I thought he would already want because his build is great and thief seems like a terrible lategame class). Everything else is just sorta already available. You already have Represailles and a spear that you haven’t had the time to throw away yet, and depending on your level of well usage and alternative unit usage you might still have two lances from earlier recruits lying around. Getting him to reclass level is incredibly low effort and extra levels past that point don’t necessarily harm the build because he can still contribute somewhat before getting Pincer, and the heroes in chapter 18 came to mind as an obvious example of that. You’ve brought up a lot of good points about the costs of forging and other auxiliary factors, *and I don’t want to discount them because they’re important factors and you’re right to point them out*, but can you really blame me for looking at this information and thinking “low investment”? In any other FE, I don’t think you could, and I feel that’s where the disconnect comes from.