<TheMadman> Way and I have been bouncing around an interesting concept for an overdone mechanic: Item pipes.
<Emoniph> Yeah?
<Emoniph> I noticed he was doing liquid pipes
<TheMadman> The idea is you store any items to be moved in capsules. The capsule is them sent into a pipe and moved around with water pressure.
<TheMadman> Instead of item filters, you have color filters that can stop the wrong capsule from moving through a pipe. But if it is stuck, and has no where else to go, water is unable to flow and the whole system can clog as a result.
<Emoniph> (tis still an overdone mechanic ;) )
<TheMadman> Yes, but were trying a new approach to it with the risk/reward of "You can build it fairly cheaply, but you had better of the skill to back it up or you'll have the whole system shut down". In addition, the water flow acts as the power source for machine. Which means if you mess up, and it clogs, your entire infrastructure can shut down.
<Emoniph> How does this fit with the dimensional tech we were speccing out?
<TheMadman> And with capsules, the idea is "It doesn't care what is in the capsule, just the shape of it". So you can't just say "Only allow ore to go here", but you can say "Only allow red to go here" and only ever fill red with ore.
<TheMadman> The idea is the water that you are pushing around is laced with aether. Any machines that use aquatic aether drain it from the water as it flows through the system. That means if the water flow stops, the machines run out of power.
<Emoniph> This is the water dimension effect?
<Emoniph> That you need a flowing source of water near a dimensional join to actually get at the "aether" there
<Emoniph> If so, this is an interesting concept, that you need a "relevant" catalyst to extract the aether near the rplanar join
<TheMadman> My thought is you have a machine near the rift that takes normal water and enriches it with aether, that is then pushed out into the system.
<Emoniph> and that catalyst drives the unique flavor of tech
<Emoniph> indeed so you are using water laced with aether to drive the water dimension tech tree
<TheMadman> Right. You need to move it around to power things, and these same tubes can also move item capsules around.
<Emoniph> I wonder if power things is thinking too inside the box
<Emoniph> I challenged way to make each of the four dimensional tech trees unique, not doing anything major mods do, and not requiring you to pursue any of the others to have a full experience
<Emoniph> I wonder if enriched water could be shaped in some way
<Emoniph> kind like the magic of this dimension is in the shaping of water
<TheMadman> Well, you also have the idea that you need to be very careful when designing the system. Don't have enough aether going into the water, you can't power everything. Have too much aether going in, rifts can spawn. Don't have enough pressure, and the water can't reach the end. Mess up the logic of the piping, and the whole system can fail.
<Emoniph> why use pipes when the water can be shaped into a stream
<TheMadman> Hmm... That might be good, for later in the tree. At first, you use pipes as a bit of a crutch. Later on you are able to do the same, and more, without pipes but with new rules.
<TheMadman> Ease the player into it with something familiar, gradually going into the magical.
<Emoniph> well, it was just a challenge for Way
<Emoniph> Everybody wants to implement a pipe system
<Emoniph> I could imagine steam pipes fitting better with the mechanical dimension
<TheMadman> Well, this is still early concepts. We at least have something to work towards. One of our goals was to make it different in the challenge it offers, having a simple set of rules and devices to use to build a large scale system. The water isn't going to think for you, it is only going to move according to set rules and logic. It is up to the player to use this to his advantage, while keepin in mind
<TheMadman> the limitations and working around them.
<TheMadman> Water was going to be more the "Small parts to make a greater whole" play style. Mechomagical was going to be the steam punk "Big and bulky machines to do big and dirty jobs".
<Emoniph> This was the idea I had in mind when the mechanomagical was being evolved: http://torment.wikia.com/wiki/Modron_Maze
<Emoniph> Ths is the cutscene that I think summarizs the spell you get in there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKZZEPoVb4c
* TheMadman nods
<Emoniph> not really steam punk something else (and not been done in MC)
<Emoniph> Immersive Engineering is going to have the main grid on steampunk/petrol punk/etc.
<TheMadman> Sort of feeling I was thinking of. Steam punk-ish with the use of piping, brass, gears, and the like, with the concept of approaching magic in a technological fashion.
<Emoniph> yep, but more about cog driven robots than steam/petrol/etc.
<Emoniph> Aether power
<Emoniph> perhaps a little skyrim drawves
* TheMadman nods
<TheMadman> I'll note this now to pass onto Way.
<Emoniph> (I already discussed it all with him, (but not the video).
<Emoniph> I anted to give yo ua flavor of what we were discussing
<TheMadman> Still, I might as well write it down in our design and lore folder, lest we forget it.
<Emoniph> sure, not saying not to ;)
<Emoniph> the idea for the mechanical dimension is more or less a 1:1 copy of the modron maze generator
<Emoniph> makes visiting the dimension a repeatable process
<TheMadman> Came up with names for three of the authors for when we write Docs. Dues Nu, Ferro Vulcain, and Flunt Rube.
<TheMadman> Their names are clearly references to their respective subjects.
<Emoniph> still need a forth dimension
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<TheMadman> Way, Arc, and I bounced around a few ideas for the forth dimension. One of the more interesting ideas was "Perception".
<Emoniph> Oh?
<TheMadman> Changing and tricking senses. Seeing things that aren't there, not seeing things that are there. Masking, changing, and utilizing sounds. Lowering or raising the amount of pain you feel. Idea was this was going to be a more player focused branch with minor branches for base work.
<Emoniph> But what is the dimension
<Emoniph> We have a plane made by mechanoids
<Emoniph> One which is like the elemental plane of water
<Emoniph> And one of Chaos (like from Warhammer)
<Emoniph> Each is a phisical embodyment, which I hoped would inspire the tech that could be created
<Emoniph> What plane could represent the idea of perception?
<Emoniph> Hmm, I wonder if this could be something like a realm of the senses, with biomes representing the senses touch, hearing sight, smell and taste...
<Emoniph> Probably a bit hard to do in MC
<Emoniph> Taste and smell
<TheMadman> That is one of the tricky parts. While mechanically we could so a lot with it, finding something that "Fits" is tricky. One thought is Smoke and Mist.
<Emoniph> I think exploring the actual dimension is kind of the culmination of that branch, making it actually the most fun part of the mod
<Emoniph> Getting a modron maze generator for example, and requiring all the tech to actually beat it on hard mode
<Emoniph> The water world
<Emoniph> All of the crazy chaos effects with gravity and time
<Emoniph> and mutation
<TheMadman> One of smoke and mist might actually be cool. Can barely see anything, can't trust any of your senses. You need to use some of the tech you creat just to work out what is real.
<Emoniph> Just checking some fantasy sites that have the concept of planes
<Emoniph> Actually, plane of shadows is pretty interesting
<Emoniph> Allows an entire tech built around the concept of shadows, and casting light
<TheMadman> Trees that change every time you look away. Terrain that changes from time to time, so you always feel lost. Torches that randomly form and fade from nothing. Buildings you can't see until you walk in them.
<TheMadman> A dimension of shadow could also be cool. Nothing in it exists unless it is in the light.
<Emoniph> I'm mor ethinking the tech this could bring too
<Emoniph> I mean the shadow realm is an obvious travel between shadows type concept
<Emoniph> and shaodw type mods are also a given here (important to render them 2d on the ground though)
<Emoniph> But the tech can be really interesting about making shadows permenant or something
<Emoniph> it plays into the perception idea somewhat, but I feel has a more cohesive base to build on
<TheMadman> But instead of "Dark magic", shadow magic could be more illusion based. Bringing out the ghostly shadows of blocks that look real, but aren't.
<Emoniph> Core goal was to get the plane and then evolve tech from it rather organically
<Emoniph> Not having some predefined (been done before thing), but rather to make a new experience for tired old modded MC
<TheMadman> I'll bring this up with Way. Mind If I share a pastebin of our last two conversations with him?
<Emoniph> I would say so far bringing modron mazes and modrons themselves as tools, is probably new to MC. The water sculpting (if realizable) would be unique. And a world of shadows with shadow magic (more than just travelling between shadows) sounds pretty cool. Finally gravity/time based effects should be awesome
<Emoniph> Sure, you should proabbly pull him tnto the conv ;)
<Emoniph> A really cool effect I have prototyped recently is rendering the world differently on the client than on the server (it actually changes the world but only visually for 1 player)
<Emoniph> The player actually saw the current state of the Witchery SpirtiWorld in an area, instead of the overworld
<TheMadman> Oh, that reminds me. Way liked the idea of later on in the water tree you move the water itself, without pipes. He does want to keep the item transport system, since both of us like the idea we have on paper to do a tired old thing in a new way(That doesn't need pipes that think for themselves.). We plan on having water streams as a point around the same time as you get into rituals with witchery.
<TheMadman> "You've gotten familiar with a few mechanics, now let's show you a new way to use them."
<TheMadman> Item transport would still uses pipes later on, but pressure and aether moving wouldn't.
<Emoniph> Its only ideas, like I say the original goal was to do unseen things, create new experiences. I am not against doing stuff that has gone before, and I know that modders want to have a crack at certain things (cause its fun), just trying to get ideas that meet the oiginal challange
<Emoniph> its cool if they (or variants of them) get done, coll if they don;t most important thing is to get the ideas out there, get them thought about, and finally make cool stuff.
<Emoniph> I tihnk for every idea that makes it, 10 must fall by the waysode
<Emoniph> hehe way-side
<TheMadman> And since we can never assume players have mods that offer some things, like item movement, and we want to balance around item movement we would want to have some form of item movement in the mod itself so a player doesn't feel like they've been given the shortend of the stick for not adding anything else. A complete experience withing the mod itself.
<TheMadman> within*
<Emoniph> I would argue that that is the trap that we all fall into
<Emoniph> rather than taking and odd starting point and see where it goes (creating interesting, sometimes pointles, dynamics) that players ultimately find a use for
<Emoniph> We look for complete tiered things that have everything
<Emoniph> MFR-like if you will
<Emoniph> Its not wrong to do this, but it *may* result in just another samey mod with a different flavor
<TheMadman> I can see your point. The problem ends up being "If we add it, only a hand full of people may use it. If we don't, people will complain that we designed around something we don't have or didn't design for something everyone has."
<Emoniph> Hence the original challenge, no (or lets say less than 20%) of tech seen in other major mods
<Emoniph> Consider instant item access, this was pioneered by Applied Energistics
<Emoniph> Vazkii was looking fo something new to add to Botania, so he added this
<Emoniph> In the past I had a great time making sorting and receiving machines using the lower level tech
<Emoniph> I could argue that a mod focussed in massive depth on adding this instant access is a great idea, it also allows modpack creators to add it or not depending if they want this major feature
<Emoniph> But adding it to a major mod that does not need it, I feel seems a little wrong
<TheMadman> And, well... Item movement automation is a staple in many mods for a good reason. Ours is going to be far more build craft low tech style then the thermal expansion and AE style. A lot of mods add auto-thinking piping, not many go for the logic heavy style.
<Emoniph> you could argue tech vs magic, but I am not convinced this is correct in the world of mod packs
<Emoniph> Not trying to focus on that specifically, just trying to show how big mods that do everything is probably a bad design choice
<TheMadman> Fair enough.
<Emoniph> its a natural progression of bored modders to not stop
<Emoniph> and to want to do something someone else has done, cause they can do it better, its more interesting, etc.
<Emoniph> Which there is nothing wrong with, btw, just that if a mod gets super popular, it kinda means other mods don;t get included so often etc.
<Emoniph> I mean Intangible may have a couple of unique things in it, but there is so many overlapped concepts with both botania and Thaumcraft
<TheMadman> Fair enough, again. With a mod like ours, you need to strike a balance between adding old staples and new innovation. Enough old stables to give them something they already know and understand, and can use as a benchmark when learning the systems and mechanics behind it. once they have a grasp of the system, they can apply their newfound knowledge to what they have never seen before.
<Emoniph> Item crafting with added souls, is just infusion crafting frmo Thaumcraft (sad I did not spot this untill the actuall hard machine was already done)
<Emoniph> Its certinaly a valid goal, and its inline with the initial challenge, although my take would be to set the old staples to a 20%  limit
<Emoniph> Indeed, it could be that each dimension represents a further shift from predictability, where the mundane water one, my only have 50% innovation, whereas the shadow one represents 100%
<TheMadman> That is part of why I wanted this piping system. Everyone knows what item transport does. Everyone knows what a pipe looks like. This gives them a stable foothold for learning about pressure and Aether transport, while we still add something new with the capsule system.
<Emoniph> i.e. nothing that has been seen before
<Emoniph> A candle that turns blocks to shadows is an interesting take on doorways
<Emoniph> combined with lokcalised gravity reversal causes blocks to float upward, turn to hshadow and then back again
<Emoniph> I wonder if machines made of moving blocks is a thing?
<TheMadman> My thought was that, from both a game design and lore standpoint, T1 and a little of T2 progression has stables of mods where the player is learning about how everything works, what they can and can't do with they system, what works and what doesn't. At T3, we see more and more invasion and things that are new as the player. From a lore stand point, the creators and getting comfortable, using what
<TheMadman> they already know and have heard of to test something completely new.
<Emoniph> Check out this, gravity defying blocks I did a while back: https://youtu.be/5fXaxB65rCc
<Emoniph> The shift from the overworld to the planar world though the tiers is certainly a desireable concept
<TheMadman> Right, and that represents a gradual shift from the familiar to the strange.
<Emoniph> I also believe its possible to successfully doing time reversal on a server
<TheMadman> Start off strange, and you might easily lose the player. Start with something they already know, and move it at a pace they can keep up with.
<Emoniph> nono, that progress was always in my mind
<Emoniph> I'm just starting with the dimension and evolving ideas from there (not saying at what tier they could sit)
<Emoniph> But not having any fixed tech in mind, not rooting myself to what ha sbeen done before.
<Emoniph> Take shadow travel, how could that work
<Emoniph> can't be just stand here and go there (e.g. normal teleporter), that has been done before
<Emoniph> could be something like the witchery spirit world
<Emoniph> but perhaps the dimension is compressed, so you take the overworld, shrink it to 25%, render it in black and white, and then allow point to point transfer, but in effect you travel 4x as far
<Emoniph> perhaps the shadow world is always in sync with the overworld, so that blocks get added and removed in the same way
<Emoniph> but entities in the shadow world are pehaps visible to a shadowmancer
<Emoniph> or perhaps the shadows in the real world that get rendered in 2d, are actually 3d entities at the sam etime in the shadow world
<Emoniph> how can this dual plane existance be explointed with dynamics in MC
<TheMadman> Hmm... What if the shadow world is changed by the overworld? The only blocks that "Exist" in the shadow world are thos ethat are dark in the over world.
<TheMadman> Day and night would make a drastic change to the shadow world.
<Emoniph> That could also be interesting, the shadow world is all of the blocks i the overworld, plus blocks that only exist in the shadow world, but must be placed in the overworld
<Emoniph> Not sure how this could benefit players, but it is certainly new
<TheMadman> You could also have the dynamic of "Stay to the black". So long as you are in the black, you can freely move through the shadow world. Enter the white, and you pop out in a relitive location in the over world.
<Emoniph> This is an idea I like very much
<Emoniph> Perhaps not so much random pop out, but some effect that is not good
<Emoniph> So the shadow world is just the overworld but in dark grayscale
<TheMadman> Right. And i like the thought that you can only shape the shadow world by changing the overworld.
<Emoniph> however sometimes light can bust through leaving beams of white accross the ladscale (perhaps these come though the boundray points with the overworld), touiching this white patches does interesting things
<Emoniph> Or rather at day in the overworld, light can leak though the weak points between worlds
<Emoniph> This shadow world is getting pretty interesting and unique :)
<Emoniph> This also allows the perception concepts to pcome into play
<Emoniph> I would allow all 4 tech paths to be unconstrained in how they may have tech derived from the initial dimensional concepts (moving from mundane ish to fantastical)
<Emoniph> Shadow world, light and dark, there and not there, hidden and visible, the shadow, what happens if the player hids their shadow
<Emoniph> or steals the shadow from another player/mob
<Emoniph> Egyoptions had the concept that your shadow was part of your soul
* TheMadman now has the urge to make a reference to anime
<Emoniph> Hiding your shadow away somehow made you immortal
<Emoniph> I say get inspiration from as many sources as possible, but bring it back to the ground rules, and make the whole thing cohesive
<TheMadman> Perhaps not hiding, but BECOMING your shadow. Hide away your real body, and take the form of your shadow.
<Emoniph> That would be what Intangible does
<TheMadman> Ah, drat.
<Emoniph> Did yo unot see the video?
<Emoniph> sec
<TheMadman> I might not have.
<Emoniph> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFtyjp5wUbI
<TheMadman> Neat.
<Emoniph> When yo uleave your body you can construct a new one, then use them as waypoints for fast travel
<Emoniph> You can also possess andy creature (or player) and take over a bit
<Emoniph> Oh an dyou can build battle robots to inhabit
<Emoniph> of and walk though smaller walls
<TheMadman> Idea. What if part of the shadow line is able to build machines designed to effect the shadow world. In the over world, you need nothing but a hole. In the shadow world, you see a bridge over that gap.
<Emoniph> The out of body / possession dynamic is one of the unique parts of the mod, admittidly travelling to another body instance is somehwat like sync, although only a bit
<TheMadman> s/need/see
<Emoniph> I think the placing blocks in the shadow world being done from the overworld is pretty interesintg
<Emoniph> Or perhaps the other way round that you build in the shadow world, to make the construct s in the over world that only get activated when you use the candle thingy
<TheMadman> Being able to create blocks that look normal, but can't exist in the shadow world. Secret doorways and paths become avalible.
<Emoniph> Imagine you make a big hole in the overworld, then in the shadow world you bridge it
<Emoniph> now in the overworld to see and use the bridge you must use you shadow tech
<TheMadman> Why not both? Something need to be in the over world to effect the shadows, other need to be in the shadow to effect the overworld. Something have different effects in both, with candles being able to act as toggles.
<Emoniph> yeah sure
<Emoniph> This also creates a lot of practicality in server world
<TheMadman> Oh, that might be neat. A block that can only be placed in the shadow world, but creates and invisible copy in the over world.
<Emoniph> othe rpoint is how it can benefit the single player
<Emoniph> Yeah that was the idea, make a big construct that only becomes real with th eright goggles, attunement, candle etc.
<Emoniph> or perhaps this effect can only occur near shadow rifts
<Emoniph> so the player must get to the point of rift manipulation/movement to get realy flexible with it
<Emoniph> just how can it benefit th esingle player
<TheMadman> That might be one of the single player perks. The shadow world is barren, so it is relitively safe way to move from A to B, so long as you don't hit a light beam.
<Emoniph> Well shadow travel yes
<Emoniph> basically a way to make it feel like the overworld, but you travel much faster, wothout actually going faster
<TheMadman> Hmm... What if part of shadow is a system of light, and light reflection? Using prisms and mirrors to beam light around to both effect the shadow world and use redstone signals.
<Emoniph> yep, it could start that way
<Emoniph> just gotta stay away from botania mana beams and chromati craft whatever them beams are
<Emoniph> I mean some really cool dynamic lighting effects alone would make people ant to do this, colored spotlights, colored light glows, etc. Disco room
<TheMadman> This would less be fore power and more for function with a decorative element. Being able to build the movie classic of "Light hits this mirror from noon till one, bouncing the beam around the base and causing things to happen".."
<Emoniph> Could even be that light that passes from the overworld into the shadow world (where it becomes wierd) and then back out retains the danger
<Emoniph> Perverting th elight if you will
<Emoniph> (also, new challenge, no use of the blindness effect in this tree, too easy and clichee ;) )
<Emoniph> Perhaps something along th elines of cloacking yourself in darkness, an dthat cloak can become other things
<Emoniph> perhaps this touches on the idea of pulling tools/weapons/armor sets stuff into existience
<TheMadman> You could, in theory, build a quite elegant system using mirrors that toggle where they face on every redstone signal, cycling through what a player sets. Imagine a machine, controlled by a mix of Redstone and light. Beams moving across the place, being redirected through prisms that change the color. Set light beam colors that can then bounce around and only trigger set things.
<TheMadman> It would be a marvel to watch at work.
<Emoniph> it would be something like a redstone signal system, just not exactly
<Emoniph> Since it is generated by aether
<Emoniph> kinda 3d light circuits
<TheMadman> Oh, it would also be neat if only half the machine is in the over world, and the other half is in the shadow world.
<Emoniph> well i would say that is how you make the light dark
<Emoniph> I gotta go to bed now. Pehaps catch you for more tomorrow ( from around time now - 3 hours)
<TheMadman> Well, this has been productive. I thank you for your time and imput on this.
<TheMadman> o7
<Emoniph> cu