0:20	Torque_	I won't pretend that what I did is unimpeachable, but it was a lapse in judgment that I made once, in frustration over a legitimate concern over the good of the community. I also turned around and gave Bar the image anyways without the obligation.
10:20	flashdrive	I'd support separating strikes from bans. 3 strikes -> temp ban. Only something really bad should lead to a permaban
10:20	Raincoat	I think the internal logic of our current ban system supports that he should be banned
10:21	Raincoat	But I disagree with that current internal logic
10:21	Tangent	And of course Torque promptly lashed out at the mods right after getting punished.
10:21	Tangent	This is clearly not him holding a grudge in any way, something even Rain admits.
10:21	Raincoat	You both love to hold grudges
10:21	Tangent	To put it bluntly, what he did is something that threatens the whole process of system development.
10:21	WhiteMobile	Well ain't this a delicious blend
10:22	Tangent	Because TRUST is what makes that work.
10:22	WhiteMobile	Hear hear, especially community systems
10:22	Tangent	I didn't like Torque much lately but I did trust him to do his job. I've said as much.
10:22	Tangent	That's the real issue, not "are the mods okay" because they obviously are.
10:23		Carmine picks up Aristokitty and moves away from the clusterfuck to pet it
10:23	BarKeep|Laptop	I actually had a, begrudging, respect for him.
10:23	Tangent	Basically, Torque should focus less on trying to mount a palace coup of the channel
10:23	Tangent	and more on fixing his own shortcomings
10:23	Aristocat	pls
10:23	Raincoat	How is calling for a vote a coup?
10:23	Tangent	It pretty much is when the intent is 'fuck the mods'
10:24	Raincoat	No it isn't
10:24	Tangent	And giving one of them the boot when all three are doing their jobs just fine as needed basiclaly is that
10:24	Tangent	Like seriously.
10:24	flashdrive	guys pls
10:24	flashdrive	vote rigging is bad, but it seems pretty clear that Torque was trying to do what he thought was right, not just trying to gain power or whatever
10:24	Tangent	Maybe if we had a larger community, the idea would be justified, but right now we have enough users for a stable userbase of regular RPers and just a bit more.
10:25	Tangent	Read the last paragraph
10:25	Tangent	It's pure salt/
10:25	Gaial	BC: >VBA pinned to taskbar      You my nigga.
10:25	Raincoat	I will stop this dicussion if Tangent stops, but until then I will continue to argue
10:25	Tangent	I think I've said my piece.
10:25	WhiteMobile	Literally the Old Age of DSD Shitposting
10:25	flashdrive	>A: I don't expect to win. I am far too outspoken, I respond aggressively to provocation, and I push hard for changes to happen. I wouldn't be surprised if three of the current mods won the vote, if nothing else because the community is used to them being in that role.
10:25	Tangent	Scroll up a bit.
10:25	WhiteMobile	REPLACE THE MODS AAAAAAAA
10:26	Raincoat	There's nothing wrong with a system for mods being changed to be in place
10:26	Trimangle	there is when there doesn't need to be
10:26	flashdrive	oh. Well, disliking the mods isn't a crime, even if most of us (including myself) disagree with what he's saying about them
10:27	Gaial	Whoops, meant BK. I are an idiot.
10:27	Tangent	To put it bluntly, we don't have the community to justify a pointless turnover and if that's not the intent, why even bother?
10:27	Tangent	None of the mods are incompetent.
10:27	Tangent	None of them have done anything that justifies a replacement.
10:27	flashdrive	I mean, I agree with that
10:27		*** WhiteKnight quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
10:27	Tangent	It really boils down to this
10:27	Tangent	Have the mods done a good job?
10:27		*** Zene|AFK is now known as Zene
10:27	Tangent	I think the answer is yes.
10:28	Tangent	They're good people, tolerant and reasonable.
10:28	Zene	<Torque_> I won't pretend that what I did is unimpeachable, but it was a lapse in judgment that I made once, in frustration over a legitimate concern over the good of the community. I also turned around and gave Bar the image anyways without the obligation.
10:28	Zene	[7 days after the lapse in judgement]
10:28	Zene	<TorqueAFK> I understand this: People can vote against things for selfish reasons, so they might as well vote for them for selfish reasons
10:28	Zene	<TorqueAFK> I don't see how it's any of your business. I have not broken any rules, nor do I agree with your assessment of its rightfulness or not. It is a fact that making deals is a normal part of the democratic process.
10:28	Zene	<TorqueAFK> Bribery is not always unjustified, and you as a mod have no particular authority over the process by which AMGC is advanced.
10:28	Torque_	Ah I see you're here to start selective quoting
10:29	Tangent	And here we go.
10:29	flashdrive	see
10:29	Tangent	I don't think any context justifies that
10:29	flashdrive	this is why monarchy/oligarchy>democracy
10:29	Trimangle	Torque, I have the quote right here -- there's not "nothing wrong" with buying someone's vote when they don't want to vote a particular way
10:29	Tangent	Basically, the thing is that it fundamentally isn't democratic to rig the vote.
10:30	Trimangle	That isn't 'compromise,' that's 'bribery' and 'corruption'
10:30	Raincoat	I would have proposed this myself if Torque didn't, to be frank
10:30	Carmine	I honestly do not give a shit about who becomes mods or how mods are selected, as long as things stay the way they have been
10:30	Torque_	There's nothing wrong with it when it's for the greater good
10:30	Fredward	hai
10:30	Raincoat	And I find that fact the Torque to have attempted rigging to be despicable
10:30	Trimangle	in your opinion, Torque_ .
10:30	Trimangle	In your opinion
10:30	Torque_	but it isn't consistent with democratic principles, that I agree with
10:30	Raincoat	And the greater good is defined differently by different folks
10:30	flashdrive	I'm not actually that angry with the attempted 'rigging' because he's just trying to buy one vote and he failed anyway
10:31	Tangent	This is a PROBLEM when we're designing the system by commitee.
10:31	Tangent	I think it should never have happened and I'm alarmed he still doesn't get that he did something wrong.
10:31	flashdrive	the problem is: Torque, you've got to recognise that the whole reason we're voting is because no one person knows what this community needs best, so we need this kind of peer review
10:31	Tangent	Not just because I can't stand the guy, just on a morality level.
10:31	Tangent	or what flash said
10:31	Torque_	Let's look at the harm caused here: None. Let's look at the potential harm: None. I do recognize that flashdrive.
10:32	Trimangle	the harm caused is not 'none'
10:32	Trimangle	the potential harm was not 'none'
10:32	Torque_	actually it is
10:33	Tangent	Every time a change happens now
10:33	Tangent	we need to wonder if Torque meddled with the vote.
10:33	Tangent	I don't think this is a good thing.
10:33	Tangent	I want Torque to understand why he shouldn't do this,.
10:33	Tangent	Not because I dislike him but because I want to be able to trust him to edit the system neutrally.
10:33	Raincoat	There was more than No Potential Harm Torque
10:33	Trimangle	Torque, by your own admission, you've betrayed democratic principles and tried to unfairly influence someone's vote
10:33	flashdrive	Torque, come on, if you recognised that you wouldn't just see your opinion as the greater good. If other people voted against your proposal, you need to try another proposal rather than trying to ignore why they're voting against it
10:34	Raincoat	We can't have elections decided by whoever has the bigger tangible reward to give
10:34	Torque_	The current reality is that people like Zene and Blind Choir vote against these changes because they have characters who abuse them. That selfish motive is just as wrong, and in my eyes necessitates correction. The ends justify the means.
10:34	Tangent	Oh FFS
10:34	Raincoat	Some ends justify some means
10:34	Raincoat	I disagree with these means
10:34	flashdrive	even if that was true, the people who abuse it aren't exactly the majority Torque
10:35	Raincoat	eh
10:35	Trimangle	Torque, the point remains you betrayed democratic principles and attempted to corrupt the system
10:35	Raincoat	^
10:35	Trimangle	that does -not- make the end justify the means
10:35	Raincoat	If you do stat to bribe
10:36	Raincoat	It means you are ok with selfish voting
10:37	Torque_	My entire direction with all of these changes is to even the playing field between optimizers and normal roleplayers. Seeing the community vote to preserve blood magic was a constant irritation to me because it's blatantly in the other direction, and people voting like Zene don't even play the fucking system.
10:37	Tangent	...
10:37	Trimangle	that's besides the point.
10:37	Tangent	What the fuck?
10:37	Trimangle	that's not the point right now.
10:37	Torque_	And it's not like I tampered with the results, I just offered someone an incentive to change.
10:37	Tangent	That IS tampering with the fucking results!
10:37	Trimangle	Stop trying to justify it!
10:37	Tangent	It shows a lack of integrity!
10:38	Tangent	Of following the rules set down that everyone believes in!
10:38	Tangent	You basically lied to everyone's faces by omission...
10:38	Raincoat	Offering someone a tangible reward for swapping points on an issue corrupts the process
10:38	Torque_	It is justified in fact, just not in principle.
10:38	Tangent	What really, really disturbs me
10:38	Tangent	Is that Torque can't admit he was wrong on this.
10:38	flashdrive	it's not justified in fact either, Torque
10:38	Tangent	He hasn't said that he made a mistake.
10:38	Raincoat	I agree that people are wrong about Blood magic
10:38	Tangent	He hasn't promised never to do it again.
10:38	Raincoat	But trying to strong arm the change will not help
10:39	flashdrive	you can't just assume they're doing it for their own gain
10:39	Raincoat	We have to work with everyone to come up with a fitting compromise
10:39	Tangent	In short, the guy in charge of making sure everyone's voices are heard is ignoring what they have to say because he thinks he knows better.
10:39	flashdrive	they're voting that way* I mean
10:39	Tangent	There are many things I would do differently if I ran AMGC. But I get that I don't.
10:39	Trimangle	Ignoring what people have to say and trying to convince them to say what -he- wants them to say
10:39	Tangent	I sulked. I snapped a bit (sorry 'bout that flash)
10:39	Tangent	but at the end of the day, I get that I don't run AMGC
10:40	flashdrive	oh Tan, I was directing that statement at Torque, not you
10:40	BarKeep|Laptop	Hell, even I get that.
10:40	Torque_	In any case, with my reputation destroyed by BK's revelation I'll go ahead and leave. But you should still vote for moderators, and rules should not be enforced retroactively.
10:40	Raincoat	Flashdrive: Some people are certianly doing for their own gain. But we should expect people voting out of self-intrest. It's a natural part of democracy
10:40	BarKeep|Laptop	Most of the time.
10:40	Tangent	And I have no right to cram that down everyone's throats for as long as I don't make the system
10:40	flashdrive	he assumed Zene and BC were only voting that way for their own gain
10:40		*** Torque_ left #MGCYOA (Leaving)
10:40	Tangent	Sigh.
10:40	Tangent	He'll be back. I just wish he'd...well, learn from his mistakes.
10:40	Carmine	Politics is a bitch
10:40	Tangent	It's pointless.
10:41		Trimangle =_=
10:41		Carmine pats Aristocat
10:41	flashdrive	we piled on him too much I think
10:41	Tangent	It wouldn't have mattered.
10:41	Trimangle	he needed the piling
10:41	Trimangle	he's still convince he's jsutified
10:41	Tangent	Don't feel bad. Torque's issue is that he can't admit he made a mistake and that's what this was.
10:41	Tangent	Yep.
10:41	WhiteMobile	That was some serious cognitive dissonance
10:42	Tangent	Self-righteousness taken to the logical extreme.
10:42	Fredward	dumb campaign idea number 4.
10:42	Trimangle	I don't know how one can feel they're justified as they're actively corrupting the voting process
10:42	BarKeep|Laptop	You know what's funny
10:42	BarKeep|Laptop	He admitted to me before
10:42	WhiteMobile	The end justifies the means even if it undermines our process and leads to a worse potential end down the line
10:42	flashdrive	it was arrogance, really
10:42	WhiteMobile	whoosh
10:42	Fredward	"there once was a mahou named Gold Roger, who was king of the mahous."
10:42	BarKeep|Laptop	that he has trouble admitting that he's wrong
10:42	BarKeep|Laptop	or seeing that he could be wrong.
10:42	Tangent	Pretty much.
10:43	Tangent	Three words "I was wrong."
10:43	BarKeep|Laptop	HE IS SELF-AWARE OF IT
10:43	Carmine	FRED, I'M ALREADY DOING A PIRATE ADVENTURE, PISS OFF
10:43	Tangent	Torque flipped out when someone compared me to him once.
10:43	flashdrive	maybe we should have given him more time to say he was wrong?
10:43	BarKeep|Laptop	To be fair, you flipped out when you were compared to DSD.
10:43	Fredward	Carmine, but is it MAGICAL GIRL PIRATES?
10:43	Tangent	The irony here is that I think they were onto something, but I'd like to think I have a bit more self-awareness.
10:43		*** Raincoat is now known as RaincoatAFK
10:43	Carmine	YES
10:43	Fredward	I want in
10:43	Tangent	WHERE ARE PIRATES
10:43	flashdrive	WOAH WHAT
10:43	flashdrive	I want in too!
10:43	Tangent	Anyway, the real joke is
10:44	WhiteMobile	MAHOU KAIZOKU?!
10:44	Tangent	Torque's rant just now?
10:44	Carmine	THEN GET YOUR CHARACTER TO BE FRIENDS WITH MY CHARACTER THEN THEY MIGHT BE INVITED
10:44	Tangent	Would make an amazing mahou.
10:44		*** Tawa joined #MGCYOA
10:44	Tangent	No, seriously, tell me that rant wasn't a good character scene...only if it was IC.
10:45	Tawa	What is going on.
10:45	flashdrive	sounds like something a mahou who's slipping towards corruption might say