[12:42 PM] Dusk: Heywro.
[12:42 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Hey.
[12:43 PM] Dusk: How're you?
[12:43 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Phenomenal.
[12:43 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yourself?
[12:43 PM] Dusk: Pretty good.
[12:43 PM] Dusk: What's up?
[12:44 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Veilpiercers later, hopefully finally finishing up Agia's solo segments in the past, other campaign prep.
[12:44 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You?
[12:46 PM] Dusk: Kusoge, probably. Veilpiercers later.
[12:49 PM] Dusk: [12:48 PM] Ay: I never tried it for proper relationship but, found my accountant thru tinder
[12:49 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: ROFL
[3:16 PM] Dusk: (Link: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_ohD4VXUAA_ERx.jpg)https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_ohD4VXUAA_ERx.jpg
[12:19 AM] Dusk: Okay.
[12:19 AM] Dusk: So.
[12:19 AM] Dusk: It's still impossible.
[12:19 AM] Dusk: Because he was raging, right?
[12:19 AM] Dusk: Can't cast while raging.
[12:19 AM] Dusk: So.
[12:24 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah, it definitely was.
[12:25 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Not changing my ruling.
[12:25 AM] Dusk: I don't want to count how many ways that doesn't work.
[12:25 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Deal with it.
[12:25 AM] Dusk: I think it's really funny that this isn't in reverse.
[12:25 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't.
[12:25 AM] Dusk: It's just irritating.
[12:25 AM] Dusk: Shit happens.
[12:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Dusk.
[12:26 AM] Dusk: I don't like the world warping to fix it like a miracle, when we already have defined miracles.
[12:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: How often do I actually prevent shit from happening?
[12:26 AM] Dusk: I know.
[12:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Like.
[12:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't think the world should warp to prevent things from happening either.
[12:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Nor would I endorse such a world.
[12:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You know what else is good?
[12:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Having an enjoyable time at the table.
[12:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You know what prevents that?
[12:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Horrific derailment (depending on the nature, such as by meat grinder PC deaths).
[12:27 AM] Dusk: And?
[12:28 AM] Dusk: Say that all you like.
[12:28 AM] Dusk: But you cast confusion.
[12:28 AM] Dusk: That's an outcome.
[12:28 AM] Dusk: Deal with it yourself.
[12:28 AM] Dusk: If you don't want it to happen.
[12:28 AM] Dusk: Don't cast confusion.
[12:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I did; I allowed the Hero Point to accomplish that.
[12:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Besides.
[12:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I didn't cast Confusion.
[12:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't do anything.
[12:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: anything*
[12:28 AM] Dusk: That's still a gorrific way to look at it.
[12:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: rofl
[12:28 AM] Dusk: horrific*
[12:29 AM] Dusk: I know.
[12:29 AM] Dusk: But.
[12:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I disagree.
[12:29 AM] Dusk: You do determine what kinds of things are in the world.
[12:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Absolutely.
[12:29 AM] Dusk: Not everyone likes to cast confusion.
[12:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[12:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean.
[12:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I considered the possibility that there would be multiple party member deaths there.
[12:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That very easily could have happened.
[12:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Saving Spot was within the realm of reasonability for me.
[12:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: So I allowed it.
[12:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's all there is to it.
[12:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you don't like it.
[12:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Don't sit down at my table.
[12:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The end.
[12:31 AM] Dusk: Let me be clear; you do understand why I'd dislike it?
[12:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: My gut reaction is "Yes."
[12:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I can't say with absolute certainty.
[12:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The argument I would most likely pursue is that the rules exist as a means of establishing and enforcing the reality of the situation.
[12:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The world is horrible.
[12:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Sometimes you're unlucky.
[12:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you do stupid things (even if you don't realize them) and you get unlucky.
[12:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You very well might die.
[12:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And if you die in a world filled with horrible things because you did something stupid.
[12:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's a pretty reasonable outcome.
[12:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: When that doesn't happen, it means that there's unnecessary suspension of disbelief potentially required, and removes part of the inherent risk and danger in the minds of the players.
[12:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Aside from that, you can also interpret it as the GM being irresponsible, by not considering potential outcomes of the encounter they chose to present.
[12:35 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Did I hit upon at least some of the issues you see?
[12:35 AM] Dusk: Somewhat, though I feel like the angle isn't quite correct.
[12:36 AM] Dusk: I guess.
[12:36 AM] Dusk: When that happens, I feel like I'm not even playing the game anymore.
[12:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If I were feeling less generous, I think this is where I'd drop a sick burn.
[12:36 AM] Dusk: Sure.
[12:36 AM] Dusk: "You don't have to be."
[12:36 AM] Dusk: Also.
[12:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: No, no.
[12:37 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "You barely do most of the time anyway."
[12:37 AM] Dusk: "Sure didn't see3m like you were anyways."
[12:37 AM] Dusk: Ah, so that was the right one.
[12:37 AM] Dusk: It's fucking confusing playing without Soul on voice.
[12:37 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Not going to disagree on that.
[12:38 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I know I (and I think PK) have more experience with text RP than you do, so it's at least relatively easy for me to follow even if the mixture is awkward.
[12:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[00:36] duskthanatos: When that happens, I feel like I'm not even playing the game anymore.
[12:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: This is just a really extreme case of.
[12:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[00:34] Avvil: When that doesn't happen, it means that there's unnecessary suspension of disbelief potentially required, and removes part of the inherent risk and danger in the minds of the players.
[12:39 AM] Dusk: No.
[12:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Then I don't understand it.
[12:40 AM] Dusk: We have clear and defined ways to interact with problems.
[12:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Hero Points are inherently not clear and defined.
[12:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Lots of the clear and defined ways to interact with problems are neither clear nor defined.
[12:40 AM] Dusk: They're vague, but they have a pretty obvious fuzzy border.
[12:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't feel that way.
[12:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And in campaigns I GM, there really aren't any fuzzy borders.
[12:41 AM] Dusk: Breaking like three rules at once is more than I think I've ever seen.
[12:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You can spend 10 rounds to Diplo in combat, because the rules say you can.
[12:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I wouldn't prevent someone from doing that.
[12:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But you could also accomplish that much more quickly by just saying the right thing.
[12:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Without even spending an action.
[12:42 AM] Dusk: That's because that falls under character interaction.
[12:42 AM] Dusk: Which obviously is left to the people playing.
[12:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There aren't rules for crushing a swarm of bats with a large flat rock.
[12:43 AM] Dusk: No, but you can figure something out.
[12:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There also aren't rules for instant death to a rock falling on you.
[12:43 AM] Dusk: And you also typically back and forth a bit.
[12:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Also, quantity of rules broken isn't necessarily a good quantifier of strength.
[12:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Though you could argue that a more sledgehammer solution may have been better.
[12:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: For many reasons.
[12:44 AM] Dusk: Literally broke a class balancing feature.
[12:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Breaking three rules at once may seem more egregious to you than.
[12:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "Spend a Hero Point to roll your Confusion save again retroactively."
[12:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which only breaks one rule.
[12:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But is actually a better effect.
[12:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Technically, it doesn't break any rules.
[12:45 AM] Dusk: I don't know.
[12:45 AM] Dusk: He got to cast a spell he didn't have prepared while unable to cast spells.
[12:45 AM] Dusk: The spell worked not like it should.
[12:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: He wasn't casting a Paladin spell.
[12:46 AM] Dusk: It was made to be unparseable.
[12:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: He was casting a spell via the method suggested in Hero Points.
[12:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (Which still doesn't work through Bloodrage, but the logic doesn't parse anyway)
[12:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Hero Points are inherently illogical.
[12:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: By "the spell worked not like it should."
[12:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm assuming you mean operating at CL 6th.
[12:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because everything else about it worked properly.
[12:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Unless you mean Confusion.
[12:47 AM] Dusk: Well, I meant.
[12:48 AM] Dusk: If he's confused, he can't cast it.
[12:48 AM] Dusk: So he must've cast it before then.
[12:48 AM] Dusk: But then it doesn't suppress the confusion.
[12:48 AM] Dusk: It just gives a bonus.
[12:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That definitely was not the case.
[12:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: He cast it during Confusion.
[12:48 AM] Dusk: Yeah.
[12:48 AM] Dusk: So.
[12:50 AM] Dusk: He was raging and unable to cast, confused and unable to cast, then cast a spell he did have access to via pld spell list at a higher CL than he should've been able to.
[12:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The latter is explicitly not an issue.
[12:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because you can cast an L1 spell as a 6th level Fighter via Hero Point.
[12:51 AM] Dusk: Then where was the suggested difficult check?
[12:52 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: He made another Will save against the effect.
[12:52 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (Which did not, in fact, free him from the effect)
[12:52 AM] Dusk: Was he parsed as having the spell bonus?
[12:53 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: No.
[12:53 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The Confusion was DC 21.
[12:53 AM] Dusk: ROFL
[12:53 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If he failed that.
[12:53 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Spot would have died.
[12:53 AM] Dusk: Fucking insufferable.
[12:53 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's it.
[12:53 AM] Dusk: That's actually infuriating.
[12:54 AM] Dusk: Yeah, I knew it was bad, but just seeing you say it like that.
[12:54 AM] Dusk: It does irritate me on the other counts.
[12:54 AM] Dusk: Like.
[12:54 AM] Dusk: Why the fuck play takesies-backsies?
[12:54 AM] Dusk: Just fon't fucking put the encounter there to begin with or let people die.
[12:54 AM] Dusk: It's shitty GMing.
[12:55 AM] Dusk: "Oh, oops."
[12:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[00:34] Avvil: Aside from that, you can also interpret it as the GM being irresponsible, by not considering potential outcomes of the encounter they chose to present.
[00:35] Avvil: Did I hit upon at least some of the issues you see?
[12:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you're just going to reiterate points I've brought up.
[12:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Don't waste my time.
[12:55 AM] Dusk: I know, but that part didn't even irritate me that much.
[12:55 AM] Dusk: Until that.
[12:56 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because I don't believe anything I've done was unreasonable or reality-warping.
[12:56 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And if you don't like it.
[12:56 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Fuck off.
[12:56 AM] Dusk: I honestly think the pig should've fucking died.
[12:56 AM] Dusk: I rolled dice.
[12:56 AM] Dusk: The dice were bad.
[12:56 AM] Dusk: Not even "fuck that was close" bad.
[12:57 AM] Dusk: Literally nat 1 and pretty obvious issues.
[12:57 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Without Hero Points, the pig 100% would be dead (and possibly someone else, though probably not two people).
[12:57 AM] Dusk: Yeah.
[12:57 AM] Dusk: I know that.
[12:57 AM] Dusk: Do you think I feel that pull?
[12:58 AM] Dusk: He cared more than I did.
[12:58 AM] Dusk: I love the character to death, but for fuck's sake.
[12:58 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: This has nothing to do with that.
[12:58 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[00:56] Avvil: Because I don't believe anything I've done was unreasonable or reality-warping.
[12:58 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Like.
[12:59 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I won't say I can't believe you are arguing this.
[12:59 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I understand why you are.
[12:59 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I still think there is a mountain of evidence against you.
[1:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: When Cecille bled to death from a single point of damag.e
[1:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Aftter two spent Hero Points.
[1:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which did nothing.
[1:00 AM] Dusk: I could've done more there, and I knew it.
[1:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: When everyone burned their Hero Points for the enchantment surrounding the Heart Chamber.
[1:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which accomplished nothing even if you succeeded, really.
[1:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And everyone still failed.
[1:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't care about whether they're effective or ineffective.
[1:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Agia is a Paladin of Ryntoril, in the middle of Bloodrage, and was about to murder an ally she genuinely cherished.
[1:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That character, in that situation.
[1:02 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Being able to get a lot of mileage out of a Hero Point.
[1:02 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Seems very on-point to me.
[1:02 AM] Dusk: Then why all that garbage?
[1:02 AM] Dusk: Why couldn't she just collect herself long enough to run away?
[1:02 AM] Dusk: Why wade through the mechanical mire and even give it a semblance of mechanical legitimacy?
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[00:43] Avvil: Though you could argue that a more sledgehammer solution may have been better.
[00:44] Avvil: For many reasons.
[00:44] duskthanatos: Literally broke a class balancing feature.
[00:44] Avvil: Breaking three rules at once may seem more egregious to you than.
[00:44] Avvil: "Spend a Hero Point to roll your Confusion save again retroactively."
[00:44] Avvil: Which only breaks one rule.
[00:44] Avvil: But is actually a better effect.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I never disagreed with you on that point.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That was simply my solution on the spot to lend some semblance of mechanical viability to it.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But in retrospect.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The sledge would have served better there.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't really care, though.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because it's done.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And the outcome would be the same.
[1:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And the intent of my ruling doesn't change.
[1:04 AM] Dusk: There is one other thing worth noting.
[1:05 AM] Dusk: If I can spend a hero point for things very vaguely defined, the value of finding legitimate mechanical solutions that are unique and interesting plummets.
[1:05 AM] Dusk: When I can just not put in effort and ask for DEM instead.
[1:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Doesn't mean you'll always get DEM.
[1:06 AM] Dusk: The mechanically fun part of the game is finding crazy solutions, though.
[1:06 AM] Dusk: Or finding the important thing you might've missed.
[1:06 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I...don't know if I really agree with you?
[1:06 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You've said that before.
[1:06 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I didn't agree then either.
[1:07 AM] Dusk: Maybe most fun is best.
[1:07 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mechanics are an elaborate means of conflict resolution that is played out in a really involved tactical combat style.
[1:07 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's very engaging if you like to get deep into numbers and balance and action economy (which I do).
[1:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But the most valuable element for me is still the matter of its use as a resolution of last resort.
[1:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: When diplomacy, stealth, ingenuity, and all others fail.
[1:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You fight.
[1:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Some parties may skip a lot of those.
[1:09 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But the fight determines who lives and who dies.
[1:09 AM] Dusk: Not everything ridiculous is fighting.
[1:10 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: To put it another way, I feel mechanics exist to serve the story. The fact that I enjoy the mechanics as well does not make them -not- a lesser part of the game for me.
[1:10 AM] Dusk: Never forget escorting a carriage up stairs because floating disc for carrying weight hover slightly above whatever surface they're above, and you can mage hand wood planks.
[1:10 AM] Dusk: etc.
[1:10 AM] Dusk: Those things are fun.
[1:10 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't disagree with you.
[1:10 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Trying to find a way to get the piano out of that fucking ship.
[1:10 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Was fun.
[1:10 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Even if we failed.
[1:11 AM] Dusk: It's a really rich system to try to solve a problem in.
[1:11 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I agree.
[1:12 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't really feel I've prevented that at all (though I reiterate that I understand where your part of the argument is coming from -- just that I think you believe your case holds much more water than I do).
[1:12 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And finally.
[1:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I will first state.
[1:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I acknowledge this statement doesn't solve problems.
[1:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Save for one.
[1:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But it is the bottom line.
[1:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It happens because I say so.
[1:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There is, in fact.
[1:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Literally a rule explicitly stating I can do this within the mechanic connected to the things you are complaining about.
[1:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But even if there were no such rule.
[1:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It happens because I say so.
[1:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And.
[1:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you do not like that.
[1:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You don't need to play in this campaign.
[1:18 AM] Dusk: I'll be sure to keep that in mind, since you do seem to feel like I barely play anyways to begin with.
[1:20 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I never stated that directly to you.
[1:20 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Merely an example of what may have been said.
[1:20 AM] Dusk: Which is why I said seem.
[1:21 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But if you're not having a good time.
[1:21 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm not sure what you're gaining.
[1:24 AM] Dusk: How much do you talk with other people about the state of the campaign?
[1:24 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: None.
[1:24 AM] Dusk: Mm.
[1:25 AM] Dusk: So they haven't expressed any feelings about it to you directly, then?
[1:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Well, PK's gone out of his way several times right after a session to comment on sessions he felt were particularly good.
[1:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Reg never says anything one way or another, aside from asking me a rules question once every six weeks or so.
[1:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Soul has commented on how much he likes the things Kris has been able to do in Verdant Harbor such as build the house, attempt to set up shop, make the contract for the percent gains at the mines, etc., though that's only come up as part of settling things related to things going on in the campaign itself, and not a dicussion about the state of the campaign.
[1:27 AM] Dusk: In general, I feel like Soul has just enjoyed playing Kris.
[1:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: He really has.
[1:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Why?
[1:29 AM] Dusk: I was just kind of curious.
[1:30 AM] Dusk: I have no clue how anyone else really feels about things overall, except that Soul obviously likes playing Kris.
[1:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I know Reg really enjoys playing Nando as well, even if he isn't vocal about it.
[1:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I mean, depending on the player that isn't always obvious.
[1:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Soul is just very easy to gauge there with respect to Kris.
[1:32 AM] Dusk: Yeah.
[1:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: PK has said several times over that he's extremely happy since the switch to Agia.
[1:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: He's liked pretty much every RP scenario since her introduction session.
[1:33 AM] Dusk: I still feel like I'm drowning in plot threads.
[1:33 AM] Dusk: And they show no signs of stopping.
[1:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean...you're not the center of the universe?
[1:33 AM] Dusk: No, I'm not.
[1:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Well, not just Gabriella.
[1:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The party as a whole, too.
[1:34 AM] Dusk: But at the same time, if the campaign stopped here.
[1:34 AM] Dusk: I couldn't actually tell you what I'd miss.
[1:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's unfortunate for me as a GM.
[1:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But it is what it is.
[1:35 AM] Dusk: Err.
[1:35 AM] Dusk: That read wrong.
[1:35 AM] Dusk: I don't mean that like I wouldn't miss the campaign.
[1:35 AM] Dusk: I mean.
[1:35 AM] Dusk: I can't tell what comes next for two shits and never really have been able to.
[1:35 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because it's entirely up to the lot of you to decide.
[1:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: This isn't off the rails.
[1:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There are no rails.
[1:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Never were.
[1:36 AM] Dusk: 800 channels, nothing to watch. 3 channels, always easier to pick.
[1:37 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Then tell everyone to just go into the forest.
[1:37 AM] Dusk: The thing is, it's not like it's presentationally neutral.
[1:37 AM] Dusk: As regards plot threads.
[1:37 AM] Dusk: And naturally.
[1:37 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Sure, of course not.
[1:37 AM] Dusk: Some just feel more important than others.
[1:38 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Doing things with the Marrag may have deeper consequences than checking out the random giant tree northeast of swamps around Tena.
[1:38 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The forest is probably deeply connected to everything, assuming things don't end horribly for you.
[1:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: What does Ivrick matter? Joseph?
[1:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Who knows?
[1:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Will Ellahka be important down the line? What is she attempting to actually accomplish?
[1:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Will Kria find her brother? Does anyone care?
[1:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: What the fuck is Simon doing?
[1:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If Keldric had to choose between Illena and Pitch, who would he save?
[1:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If Goz had to choose between saving anyone and turning into a shark and swimming away, who would he save?
[1:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Is Nelwick ever going to leave port?
[1:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And what is up with those transport issues?
[1:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: None of these things necessarily -need- your attention.
[1:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Though you -could- pursue any of them.
[1:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (But I think we all know who Goz would save)
[1:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If the campaign ended now.
[1:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You'd miss everything that didn't happen in the campaign yet.
[1:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which, to me.
[1:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Is exactly the same as any other campaign.
[1:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: From the most open.
[1:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: To a straight AP from the book.
[1:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It doesn't matter that the things that you haven't done in the AP are written out in advance and follow a set course.
[1:44 AM] Dusk: Tell me, do you already know what events you'd be looking forward to in Common Sky?
[1:44 AM] Dusk: It's a really transparent campaign, to be fair.
[1:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Entering the tower and meeting Pria are the two big ones.
[1:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Obviously, the meetings with all the gear holders are going to be major events.
[1:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Though I'm certainly the most interested in Pria right now.
[1:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Beyond that, can't really say.
[1:46 AM] Dusk: You have an idea of the structure, though.
[1:46 AM] Dusk: It's already kind of signposted.
[1:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah, though if you asked the same in Rise, I'd have no answer until Karzoug's clear reveal as the major villain, and then it would just be, "We're going to kill Karzoug some time."
[1:46 AM] Dusk: I agree there.
[1:47 AM] Dusk: Rise is literally "follow the plot until you get a note that tells you where the next bit of plot is."
[1:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Literally no fucking clue where Curse is going.
[1:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If it weren't an AP.
[1:47 AM] Dusk: Rise also has the horrific curse of being an AP, where you cannot take the risk of having recurring villains.
[1:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'd say Marianne and Niraasi are going to bust up the drug trade in Korvosa for good.
[1:48 AM] Dusk: Well, more accurately, recurring villains that you actually meet.
[1:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[1:48 AM] Dusk: I'd say that there's nothing to necessarily -stop- you there.
[1:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: With that said.
[1:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I assume that at the very least.
[1:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Kris cares about encountering Ivrick again.
[1:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And the entire party has a reason to be looking out for that kitsune bastard.
[1:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Part of Veilpiercers right now is that you -do- lack information in a lot of ways.
[1:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Even the people who you thought might have been able to guide you don't have the answers you thought they might.
[1:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'd hope that part of what you might be looking forward to.
[1:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Would be seeking out answers.
[1:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because if you had answers.
[1:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You might be able to figure out what else to do.
[1:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And once you do that.
[1:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You have goals, and other events you know you'll eventually confront.
[1:51 AM] Dusk: I expected no answers until we did shit and didn't get a chance to see the other outcomes.
[1:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Doing anything means not doing something else.
[1:51 AM] Dusk: Well, yes, but I mean.
[1:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean.
[1:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Do I need to look for that Dresden Codak page?
[1:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (Which is amazing)
[1:52 AM] Dusk: We'd never get a good idea of what we were doing until after we'd done it.
[1:52 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: As of right now, you don't actually have any indication that won't always be true, but it doesn't need to be.
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But if you want to compare Veilpiercers and Common Sky, for example, in terms of anticipation of future events.
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I know we'll enter the clock tower.
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You know you'll (probably) enter the forest (if you choose to).
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: They're at different places along the way.
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But as soon as you hit the continent and dealt with the orcs.
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The forest was looming.
[1:54 AM] Dusk: I guess a mediocre analogy here is that when it comes to sorting information or choosing what to put on the screen, you're asking the players to be the director.
[1:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yes, that's the advantage to this style of GMing.
[1:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It is not inherently superior.
[1:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It accomplishes something different.
[1:55 AM] Dusk: Feels a bit screwy.
[1:56 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: This is literally an entire school of thought of GMing.
[1:56 AM] Dusk: I know this.
[1:56 AM] Dusk: But there's just something odd about the analogy when you think about it that way.
[1:56 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean, I've known for a long time that you are at odds with my style of GMing.
[1:56 AM] Dusk: Since it makes the person viewing the game the GM and not the players.
[1:57 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't understand that statement.
[1:58 AM] Dusk: It's kind of hard to actually put in words, but the mental image is like the direction of the projection of a film image and who's watching it.
[1:58 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I feel like your choice of words is awful, but I can't actually tell because I still don't really understand.
[1:58 AM] Dusk: Ugh, that's so true.
[1:58 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm not sure if you're differentiating players from player characters as part of your analogy.
[1:59 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Or if you mean something different.
[1:59 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Especially since "the person viewing the game" seems equivalent to "a player/the players." But could also refer to the GM, because they are also viewing the game, because everyone is.
[2:06 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Like, consider from the opposite standpoint. You reach the end of Rise (a campaign which is completely scripted, because it is an AP), we get to Karzoug, and everyone dies due to random chance and the party doesn't even come close to hurting him. That's really shitty, but a completely legitimate outcome. But that doesn't really lend itself well to a reasonable story arc. It doesn't fit into how stories are told, or any of the buildup or events leading up to it. But all those such events are locked in place, because it is written that way. But the very nature of the game fights against being directed in such a manner.

Does a style of direction like an AP or Common Sky make more sense in a game that cannot be controlled in such a way? If the challenges presented are so overwhelmingly within the realm of predictability that the chance of deviation is close to non-existent, is there even an actual game? Would not a style of direction in which the party chooses their own allies, their own goals, their own motivations and disasters and triumphs be better-suited to the nature of the way the game is played?
[2:06 AM] Dusk: I didn't mean for this to tie directly to what was said earlier.
[2:07 AM] Dusk: Admittedly, what you say up there first.
[2:07 AM] Dusk: There's a reason a GM rolls behind a screen.
[2:08 AM] Dusk: Behind that screen is witch's domain.
[2:08 AM] Dusk: Though you remove it from there sometimes to keep it stronger.
[2:09 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean.
[2:09 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: We're both GMs, in many different ways.
[2:09 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: We understand that, so there's no reason to beat around that bush.
[2:09 AM] Dusk: As per the second part.
[2:09 AM] Dusk: Okami is one of the easiest games you will ever play and no one cares.
[2:10 AM] Dusk: I prefer to ride a harder line than that.
[2:10 AM] Dusk: And I do leave a lot to chance.
[2:10 AM] Dusk: But I also provide heavy countermeasures.
[2:11 AM] Dusk: What's important isn't how hard something actually is, it's how hard it feels.
[2:11 AM] Dusk: Besides.
[2:11 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Of course.
[2:11 AM] Dusk: At the end of the day, there's no executional difficulty in PF; it's all just decisions.
[2:11 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But a GM screen isn't an invincible wall.
[2:12 AM] Dusk: "Difficulty" is just "relative odds of success."
[2:12 AM] Dusk: Not how hard something really is to do.
[2:12 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Sure, but decisions can get very involved.
[2:12 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The game has enough depth that optimal play (even within the realm of playing your character) isn't often met.
[2:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But as far as GM screens go.
[2:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: So something completely not okay happens.
[2:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And you tell everyone something else.
[2:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you're good.
[2:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You can get away with this.
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But not always.
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And not all players are of the same caliber.
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: How much HP did that opponent really have?
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Did he actually fail that save?
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Outliers exist.
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Ridiculous odds can occur.
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: People know this.
[2:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: So you try to prey on those hopes and possibilities when things don't work out.
[2:15 AM] Dusk: That's bad, though.
[2:15 AM] Dusk: What you want is to normalize the crazy outcomes.
[2:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yes.
[2:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Or be willing to deal with them.
[2:15 AM] Dusk: Yes.
[2:16 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Okami is also a really bad comparison for all points except, "Things don't need to be difficult to be good," as a completely generalized statement.
[2:17 AM] Dusk: I meant to simply point out that feeling a strong challenge does not correlate to enjoyment.
[2:17 AM] Dusk: In all cases.
[2:17 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yes, but it does correlate to immersion.
[2:17 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And considering that this all started.
[2:18 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because you felt your mechanical immersion (if that oxymoron even holds any logical value) was in jeopardy.
[2:19 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I should say, "does correlate to immersion where appropriate."
[2:19 AM] Dusk: I don't believe I once used the word immersion.
[2:19 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You never used the word immersion.
[2:19 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's my interpretation.
[2:20 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: To me, those dots connect.
[2:20 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[00:36] duskthanatos: When that happens, I feel like I'm not even playing the game anymore.
[2:20 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I could say the same of false rolls.
[2:21 AM] Dusk: Sure, but you never see them if it's done well.
[2:21 AM] Dusk: I also haven't actually faked a roll.
[2:21 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's what I was trying to impress upon above.
[2:21 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You never see them if it's done well.
[2:21 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That means it can be done poorly.
[2:24 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Anyway, my point was more, "If your argument for how to keep things on track in a preset layout of things is that you can fake results if absolutely necessary, you don't seem in favor of your own logic."
[2:25 AM] Dusk: I just said that because your statement was very blanket.
[2:25 AM] Dusk: And didn't allow for a lot of fine discussion or talk of how one can subtly handle that.
[2:26 AM] Dusk: Since even with most safeguards in place, people can just nat 1 until they're dead.
[2:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Sure.
[2:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Though that isn't actually very difficult to get around unless your party has no offensive casters.
[2:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: At some point, as long as the thing they're fighting isn't guaranteed immune.
[2:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It will have chances to fail saves.
[2:27 AM] Dusk: I more meant the party can nat 1 until they're dead.
[2:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You just said the same thing again.
[2:28 AM] Dusk: ???
[2:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Casters don't need to roll to win.
[2:29 AM] Dusk: Though they do need to roll to not lose on their opponent's turn, a lot of the time.
[2:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah.
[2:29 AM] Dusk: The situation at the beginning of Rise.
[2:29 AM] Dusk: That random would've-been-TPK.
[2:30 AM] Dusk: In the catacombs.
[2:30 AM] Dusk: That sort of horrific bad luck.
[2:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[2:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which, case in point.
[2:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Could absolutely have derailed the campaign.
[2:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's bad for any campaign.
[2:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Open world or railroad.
[2:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think part of your misunderstanding is thinking that an open world campaign necessarily has such a strong difference of directing style than a railroaded one.
[2:32 AM] Dusk: Well, it definitely does.
[2:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Like everything else, it can be smoke a mirrors.
[2:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: and*
[2:32 AM] Dusk: Directing is literally the act of choosing what's important.
[2:32 AM] Dusk: And how to convey it.
[2:32 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You could have gone to the grove and found what's north.
[2:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (though it wouldn't have made any sense, but I could have simply averted that).
[2:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You could have headed south to Tena, and actually, the Marrag were living in caves under there.
[2:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If I really wanted the Marrag first.
[2:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The Reader of the Waters was actually at the mines.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't do this.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But one can.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's the same as dice rolls.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Ideally.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you plan well.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And have things set up nicely.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And have failsafes planned and in place.
[2:35 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You can allow people to explore as they please.
[2:35 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: While still maintaining an overarching story.
[2:35 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Maybe you land at Verdant Harbor.
[2:35 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But it wasn't being attacked by orcs.
[2:35 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It was being attacked by goblins.
[2:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Who were part of a number of tribes in the area.
[2:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You find out, while you're resting up and enjoying the fruits of victory, that there are actually some caves under the harbor.
[2:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Where there's a statue of some weird guy you don't know.
[2:37 AM] Dusk: And yes, you're playing Rise of the Runelords.
[2:37 AM] Dusk: [2:36 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Who were part of a number of tribes in the area.
[2:37 AM] Dusk: Was when I assumed that where that was going.
[2:37 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[2:38 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: To me.
[2:38 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It isn't like I'm leaving the direction entirely up to the players.
[2:38 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's more like I'm offering to dance.
[2:38 AM] Dusk: A GM always does that, though.
[2:38 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah.
[2:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which is why I say.
[2:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[02:31] Avvil: I think part of your misunderstanding is thinking that an open world campaign necessarily has such a strong difference of directing style than a railroaded one.
[2:39 AM] Dusk: The thing that continuously comes back to me is.
[2:39 AM] Dusk: I can't anticipate or look forward to something I don't know to look forward to or anticipate.
[2:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You don't feel anything toward the forest?
[2:40 AM] Dusk: I don't, no more than anything else.
[2:40 AM] Dusk: Because honestly, I can't tell if it matters that much more than everything else.
[2:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's interesting, and legitimately disappointing.
[2:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But as I said earlier (though to a misunderstood remark).
[2:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It is what it is.
[2:41 AM] Dusk: Sure, I suspect it should by logic.
[2:41 AM] Dusk: But...
[2:41 AM] Dusk: If it were that important, why is there all this other stuff?
[2:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Because the world isn't empty.
[2:41 AM] Dusk: It's not like it's any less pressing.
[2:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Nor full of people with all the answers to everything.
[2:42 AM] Dusk: Sure.
[2:42 AM] Dusk: But let's say you're cropping an image.
[2:42 AM] Dusk: Cropping is equal parts including and excluding.
[2:42 AM] Dusk: This is no different.
[2:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: In the end, what I crafted didn't draw you in.
[2:43 AM] Dusk: I don't know what to look at, because everything is given a similar value.
[2:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's unpleasant, but I'm not going to feel badly about it.
[2:43 AM] Dusk: You have more named NPCs than a long-running fantasy series.
[2:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean.
[2:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You've made it abundantly clear you don't like my style.
[2:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think that's fine.
[2:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: My style is not going to be changing.
[2:47 AM] Dusk: I know this much; this isn't something you'd do with other mediums, right?
[2:47 AM] Dusk: I think CYOA kind of counts differently, here.
[2:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm not even sure what you mean by that latter remark.
[2:48 AM] Dusk: Your CYOAs have had more focus than this.
[2:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Ah.
[2:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Well, that's your impression of them.
[2:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I wouldn't really say that.
[2:48 AM] Dusk: I figured you'd think that.
[2:48 AM] Dusk: But you gave us the pivotal choices to look for.
[2:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Did I?
[2:49 AM] Dusk: We got to choose a girl, good enough.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You have pivotal choices here.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Regarding the CYOA.
[2:49 AM] Dusk: The thing is, they're less obviously defining. It's also less clear what we give up in doing them.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: What if you didn't want a romance-connected route?
[2:49 AM] Dusk: If anything at all.
[2:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The choice is meaningful because you're saying so.
[2:50 AM] Dusk: That's like saying the sky is blue.
[2:51 AM] Dusk: Everything only has meaning if you give it meaning.
[2:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Two of the other three players feel they have meaningful choices.
[2:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The third doesn't make choices.
[2:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That obviously doesn't make your viewpoint wrong.
[2:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Perception is reality.
[2:51 AM] Dusk: Almost all their play is very inward focused, though.
[2:52 AM] Dusk: For that aspect.
[2:52 AM] Dusk: Kris especially.
[2:52 AM] Dusk: Kris is playing the Kris game.
[2:53 AM] Dusk: Kris made choices and had clearly defined goals almost entirely independent of the game itself, it looked like.
[2:53 AM] Dusk: Sure, they tied in.
[2:54 AM] Dusk: But it was more, Kris added this to the list of things he could do.
[2:54 AM] Dusk: Yes, it was "always there."
[2:54 AM] Dusk: But it was rarely something initially highlighted.
[2:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think you have a lot of clusters of puzzle pieces.
[2:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And disconnected segments of the border.
[2:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You've been staring at them for months now.
[2:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And you want to know why I didn't just make the border for you to start with.
[2:55 AM] Dusk: I wouldn't say that's it either.
[2:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I would, though.
[2:55 AM] Dusk: I can imagine certain structures.
[2:56 AM] Dusk: I can think of ways things could come together.
[2:59 AM] Dusk: Maybe the issue is closer to when everything is important, nothing is.
[3:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think the issue is that you have no confidence in the fact that there is actual directing work going on.
[3:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: To me, this is still closer to a prelude.
[3:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Not a prologue, per se.
[3:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But the chapter 1.
[3:01 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (though not as an indicator of total length)
[3:02 AM] Dusk: We're fucking level 6 in a 12 level campaign.
[3:02 AM] Dusk: Act 1 and Act 2 are traditionally the longest, to be sure.
[3:02 AM] Dusk: But christ.
[3:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The thing is.
[3:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Even if the final work is beautiful.
[3:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I get the impression you'd still be annoyed at having to sit through a longer-than-you-feel-was-really-necessary stage of early crafting.
[3:05 AM] Dusk: That's because I edit for brevity, yes.
[3:06 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Brevity isn't really in the script.
[3:06 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And concise is not synonymous with "short."
[3:07 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Though I think Common Sky accomplishes both.
[3:07 AM] Dusk: I also didn't choose something sprawling.
[3:07 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I was going to say.
[3:08 AM] Dusk: There's a clear difference in scale.
[3:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The feeling of Common Sky is entirely different from the feeling I wish to craft with Veilpiercers.
[3:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Even if I craft it well, though.
[3:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If it isn't something you wanted from the start.
[3:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It isn't going to be especially valuable to you.
[3:09 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And I do feel there's a disconnect between what I have to offer, and what you're looking for.
[3:09 AM] Dusk: I don't feel like what you're looking to craft needs to be presented in precisely this way, though.
[3:10 AM] Dusk: Not even significantly different.
[3:12 AM] Dusk: I don't know.
[3:13 AM] Dusk: I think some of this might just be that in your zeal to make your world alive.
[3:13 AM] Dusk: You literally ignored the most common methods of signposting things as important or key.
[3:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You are the second least-appreciative person I have ever GM'd for.
[3:13 AM] Dusk: Jesus.
[3:14 AM] Dusk: I don't want to know the first.
[3:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean.
[3:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you're not having a good time.
[3:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'd still rather know about it.
[3:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But for someone who was infuriated that they felt reality had been warped earlier.
[3:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I am not going to warp reality to accomodate you.
[3:16 AM] Dusk: I fucking told you it wasn't immersion.
[3:16 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: No, but it is -integrity-.
[3:17 AM] Dusk: Integrity of what, specifically?
[3:17 AM] Dusk: Because you could mean of multiple things.
[3:18 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: In your case, integrity of the mechanics. In this case, integrity of the world.
[3:18 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm not saying, "I won't do it because you complained about X."
[3:18 AM] Dusk: Do you think Madoka has less integrity because we don't know the name of everyone in Madoka's homeroom or some shit?
[3:18 AM] Dusk: They're all people too.
[3:18 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm saying, "I acted as I did earlier in the same interests of integrity I do now."
[3:18 AM] Dusk: But they don't fucking matter.
[3:19 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: No one talks to them.
[3:19 AM] Dusk: That's a conscious decision, too, obviously.
[3:19 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: We simply jump over all interaction with them that would exist, yes.
[3:20 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "You are now at the entrance to the forest. Add two levels, don't worry too much about how you got here, the rest of that wasn't -that- important, here's the quick summary of what you need to know."
[3:21 AM] Dusk: I feel like you're kind of missing the point, but I'm not sure.
[3:21 AM] Dusk: It's not like the world has less integrity because you don't highlight certain things or point them out.
[3:22 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There are things that happen all the time that you don't even think about, though.
[3:22 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "We pick up all the random shit lying in the road, go back to town, and sell it."
[3:22 AM] Dusk: I'm not saying I'm on a good place with this.
[3:22 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "Okay, you get 3.2 gp."
[3:23 AM] Dusk: I sit far at the opposite extreme.
[3:23 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "Er. What?"
[3:23 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "That's what it's worth at current market value."
[3:23 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "Since when was there a market value?"
[3:23 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "Since always, you think you're not dealing with shopkeepers when you buy and sell things?"
[3:24 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "They care about margins, supply and demand. That's how much you get."
[3:25 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Does it really matter if the guard who is working at the gate is one you've seen before or someone new?
[3:25 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Probably not to most people (both in and out of character).
[3:25 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Is he that important even if he has a name?
[3:25 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Most likely...probably not really.
[3:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But he still knows you.
[3:26 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: He cared enough to even share something of real value you with you.
[3:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Is Jelnok's scribe important?
[3:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Did you need to know Mellin's name?
[3:27 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If Jelnok's scribe isn't important, who did he write the note for?
[3:28 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Was the istril who Valmeric raped someone who needed to be named?
[3:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Honestly, not really, aside from the fact that people often introduce themselves when meeting.
[3:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You don't know the name of any other of his victims.
[3:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Could the random miners have been left as blank faces?
[3:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Absolutely.
[3:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But people remember Julius blowing up the rock, and PK certainly had a time with Murgbar.
[3:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Kris still thinks Nathaniel is scum, and Harriet's varying degrees of luck with rocks was certainly...something.
[3:31 AM] Dusk: I probably would've only had Astrillig.
[3:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:31 AM] Dusk: I'm not saying there's no value ever.
[3:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Let me put it like this.
[3:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I care about the family who spent the time researching a Ray of Frost variant for making abnormal ice cream in Irisvale.
[3:34 AM] Dusk: For me, it's enough they exist.
[3:34 AM] Dusk: You don't need to know more than that; it adds enough by itself.
[3:35 AM] Dusk: Adding more than that would be worse than, well.
[3:35 AM] Dusk: Godawful comparison.
[3:35 AM] Dusk: But essays on buckets and mating habits.
[3:35 AM] Dusk: At least those get re-referenced.
[3:36 AM] Dusk: It'd be an interesting side discussion, sure, but it'd ultimately serve no purpose.
[3:36 AM] Dusk: It's clutter.
[3:37 AM] Dusk: Because I know what I want to be memorable there.
[3:37 AM] Dusk: Besides, that detail isn't just about that.
[3:37 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Have you considered it doesn't matter if your players don't agree?
[3:38 AM] Dusk: This isn't really about asking you to change, because I've not once thought you would.
[3:38 AM] Dusk: I'm basically talking limyaael-style shop instead.
[3:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There's a difference between writing and games, though, and how much game you want in your writing and how much writing you want in your game.
[3:39 AM] Dusk: I agree, but games get extra devices for showing things off.
[3:40 AM] Dusk: And obviously lose some.
[3:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I actually don't agree with that.
[3:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'd say it's pure gain.
[3:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: At that point.
[3:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It just becomes a matter of sacrifice.
[3:40 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: A kinetic VN with no art is a digital novel.
[3:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: no art or music*
[3:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's also debateable if a kinetic VN is even a game (even with art and music).
[3:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Visual novels represent an interesting place in the continuum from games to literature.
[3:41 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And kinetic VNs obviously an even more bizarre grey area.
[3:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But if we just call them all "games" of some kind.
[3:42 AM] Dusk: The vagueness of a novel is an important part of its presentation, honestly.
[3:42 AM] Dusk: VNs make almost everything crisp and vivid, whereas text is all about choosing what to make vivid.
[3:43 AM] Dusk: Well, that's not right.
[3:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's an overgeneralization.
[3:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Based on high-budget mainstream VNs.
[3:43 AM] Dusk: Shit, it's not like you even need to go far.
[3:44 AM] Dusk: Still, I think it's fair to say the level of detail is just naturally higher in a VN.
[3:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Since the "V" does strive to signifiy "visual" even if it's hilariously no longer true in a textbook sense.
[3:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't think that's entirely unfair.
[3:45 AM] Dusk: A single background picture includes multitudes of details you'd never bother with in text.
[3:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:45 AM] Dusk: The most glaring instance is character appearance.
[3:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Spriteles.
[3:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: s*
[3:46 AM] Dusk: Well, yes.
[3:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm out.
[3:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Night, Dusk.
[3:46 AM] Dusk: Night, Avvil.



Session Start (duskthanatos:avvilgarrant@gmail.com): Sun May 14 14:21:16 2017 -0400
[2:21 PM] Dusk: Heywro.
[2:45 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Hey.
[2:45 PM] Dusk: How're you?
[2:46 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Magnificent.
[2:46 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yourself?
[2:46 PM] Dusk: Good.
[2:46 PM] Dusk: What's up?
[2:47 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: We'll be out at some point today, uncertain if I So Pledge will be running later or not.
[2:47 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You?
[2:47 PM] Dusk: Probably kusoge and cleaning, I think.
[2:55 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I would like to hear your opinion on the series of events described in this blog, and the conclusions drawn (this is from the same blog as that one Evil party).
[2:55 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (Link: http://taking10.blogspot.com/2016/10/that-one-time-sorceress-rogue-and-bard.html)http://taking10.blogspot.com/2016/10/that-one-time-sorceress-rogue-and-bard.html
[2:59 PM] Dusk: What about it, specifically?
[2:59 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Anything.
[2:59 PM] Dusk: The impression I get was they were never given the intended rails and then they just did whatever the hell they found most entertaining.
[3:00 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:00 PM] Dusk: After that, when the GM tried to rerail, it was way too late.
[3:00 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: My stance as GM is.
[3:01 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "Seems like a good campaign; it's unfortunate it wasn't what that GM was actually attempting to accomplish."
[3:01 PM] Dusk: Well, the players were enjoying it.
[3:01 PM] Dusk: At that point.
[3:01 PM] Dusk: The GM kind of needed to just suck it up or be really clever.
[3:01 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:02 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: In your scenario.
[3:02 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: As far as I can tell.
[3:02 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: What you enjoy is the kind of campaign you run (this makes a lot of sense, of course).
[3:02 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But that's never going to be the kind of campaign I run.
[3:02 PM] Dusk: Sure.
[3:03 PM] Dusk: But at any given time, I don't feel much of any direction, even just the kind of direction of logical necessity (we're stranded, so don't die).
[3:03 PM] Dusk: Different direction from last night; I mean pointing, plot line, etc.
[3:04 PM] Dusk: What that ends up meaning to me is I'm given a bunch of places I could go, and there's rarely a strong indicator of why to go to one over the other, or what's smart to hold for later and what's better to do now.
[3:04 PM] Dusk: I guess I feel like Buridan's ass.
[3:05 PM] Dusk: Given the choice between doing a lot of things with similar valence, I end up preferring to do none of them.
[3:05 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: What is it like to be alive for you?
[3:05 PM] Dusk: Life doesn't have things with similar valence.
[3:05 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: What about for your character, then?
[3:06 PM] Dusk: I don't actually have anything I'd consider a lead to follow.
[3:06 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I actually agree with you there.
[3:06 PM] Dusk: So I'm just following everyone around until I have something, which means it's the same shit as before right now.
[3:06 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I considered one possible situation the party just holing up for winter in Verdant Harbor (pretty sane decision).
[3:07 PM] Dusk: I need to be valuable enough to have people be willing to go along with me later while not dying.
[3:07 PM] Dusk: And that's pretty much all I've got.
[3:08 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean, I think it's a given that as things proceed, things will open up for you.
[3:08 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But you've also chosen to put your character in a spot where she isn't actively pursuing what she's after (though that's partially due to party comp hilarity).
[3:09 PM] Dusk: Yes, because it was extremely stupid to directly pursue it, since find a group to do so with that would actually deal with me would've been... something, to say the least.
[3:09 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:09 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I was more thinking Nando directly.
[3:10 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Since pursuing anything called the "Legacy of Fire" can't possibly be a good thing.
[3:10 PM] Dusk: Nando is an issue, yeah.
[3:10 PM] Dusk: Though I'm not sure why he hasn't been more antagonistic towards me in general.
[3:11 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's just...Reg being Reg, if I had to guess.
[3:11 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I can all but guarantee he would be if this were all in text.
[3:12 PM] Dusk: That means I'm losing out on relevant stuff just because of how people are playing.
[3:13 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean, that's just reality.
[3:13 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I can't play his character for him.
[3:13 PM] Dusk: Yes, I know that.
[3:18 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't know that there's really anything left to say.
[3:19 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It isn't as if it isn't a valid criticism, since your experience is your experience. It just isn't a criticism I'm accustomed to dealing with.
[3:20 PM] Dusk: You've stated your players have typically been more aggressive about accomplishing character goals.
[3:20 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah.
[3:21 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean...it isn't as if I'm incapable of railroading. It would just be...railroaded.
[3:22 PM] Dusk: How did the other players typically handle people aggressively pursuing their goals?
[3:22 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's fundamentally undesirable to me.
[3:22 PM] Dusk: I mean, time spent with one person accomplishing their thing is time spent with another person not accomplishing theirs in most circumstances.
[3:22 PM] Dusk: With the kind of setup you describe.
[3:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There are things called talking to your party in-character.
[3:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And bonds.
[3:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And caring about someone other than yourself.
[3:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Often people invested in initial setup, which helps.
[3:23 PM] Dusk: This party doesn't do well on this count except Agia.
[3:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Two friends come to me and are like, "We want to play siblings."
[3:23 PM] Dusk: Reg cares about nothing because he's Reg.
[3:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: "Can we all start as part of a group?"
[3:23 PM] Dusk: Kris just wants to run a shop.
[3:24 PM] Dusk: I mean, Reg's character cares about things, but they don't come through heavily in how Reg plays him.
[3:24 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:24 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I agree with you on that.
[3:24 PM] Dusk: So you end up with the only person actually directing the party.
[3:24 PM] Dusk: Playing Recettear.
[3:24 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Maybe this combination of four people is just doomed to lack chemistry.
[3:25 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't really believe that.
[3:25 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But it's certainly been true up to this point.
[3:25 PM] Dusk: I mean.
[3:25 PM] Dusk: There are latent conflicts to be played out, etc.
[3:25 PM] Dusk: But it's really hard to tell if they -will- get played out.
[3:25 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm not sure what you mean by that.
[3:26 PM] Dusk: Nando basically ignoring me is an example of that.
[3:26 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Ah.
[3:26 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: So it was what I thought you meant.
[3:26 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think Agia/Kris will happen.
[3:27 PM] Dusk: I mean, I was set up to be a foil to Kris in some ways, though not all.
[3:27 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think it's still possible.
[3:27 PM] Dusk: But it's been largely irrelevant in the situations we've been in.
[3:27 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:28 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I do have a lot more insight into your being so quiet based on what you said earlier, though.
[3:28 PM] Dusk: In what, specifically?
[3:29 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[15:07] duskthanatos: I need to be valuable enough to have people be willing to go along with me later while not dying.
[15:07] duskthanatos: And that's pretty much all I've got.
[3:29 PM] Dusk: I mean... do you see anything different?
[3:29 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You don't need to just be the fourth wheel.
[3:30 PM] Dusk: We followed up on plot lines I wasn't involved in and didn't have a lot of reason to be invested in.
[3:30 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Would she just kind of orbit the party as a satellite, or would she more actively engage with the things they're brining up, since she's decided to stick with them anyway?
[3:30 PM] Dusk: It depends, generally.
[3:31 PM] Dusk: But most of what's been going on is stuff she doesn't have any reason to understand the relevance of at all.
[3:31 PM] Dusk: Specifically lately.
[3:31 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[3:32 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I do wish I knew what the party intended to do next after the conclusion of last session.
[3:32 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm -assuming- you're actually going to go half a day north now.
[3:32 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I don't -know-.
[3:32 PM] Dusk: rofl
[3:32 PM] Dusk: That.
[3:32 PM] Dusk: That was always the thing I would kill myself over not getting clarified.
[3:33 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm actually surprised the message in front of the grove was that unclear to everyone.
[3:34 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That would legitiately have been TPK/BAD END scenario if you went there early on.
[3:34 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: legitimately*
[3:34 PM] Dusk: Was it ever put in text?
[3:34 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yes, twice.
[3:34 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That session.
[3:34 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I literally posted it before you entered.
[3:35 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: When I asked what you were doing after leaving the camp.
[3:35 PM] Dusk: Chat was a fucking mess that session.
[3:36 PM] Dusk: Oh, yes.
[3:37 PM] Dusk: Yeah, I remember that.
[3:38 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think in conclusion, my long response to your problems is, "Things may improve for you eventually, but it does seem like you just don't like how I do things. I have heard your complaint, and decided to proceed unchanged. I would rather not have this discussion every six to eight weeks, even if in six to eight weeks you still feel this way."
[3:38 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: My short response remains, "If you really don't like, don't play."
[3:38 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: like it*
[3:39 PM] Dusk: If I feel like this every six to eight weeks.
[3:39 PM] Dusk: Then I'd be baffled if you think the problem is still on my end.
[3:39 PM] Dusk: But okay.
[3:39 PM] Dusk: "Things will change eventually."
[3:39 PM] Dusk: >Things still don't change
[3:39 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you weren't the only one who felt that way.
[3:40 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You may have a point.
[3:40 PM] Dusk: This is why.
[3:40 PM] Dusk: I asked.
[3:40 PM] Dusk: Who talks to you about meta.
[3:40 PM] Dusk: You gave me the straight impression the answer was, ""no one else."
[3:40 PM] Dusk: Meaning.
[3:41 PM] Dusk: You should actually have no clue how anyone else feels from direct testimony.
[3:41 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't feel a need to send out surveys.
[3:41 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: We are all adults.
[3:41 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Most of us seem competent at communication.
[3:41 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You have no issues bringing up problems.
[3:41 PM] Dusk: You say that, but I always asked people how they felt about things.
[3:41 PM] Dusk: Less so with Rise.
[3:42 PM] Dusk: But always moreso with TT (in either iteration) or Common Sky.
[3:42 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean, if there's something I really didn't like or felt was horribly done, I would say so.
[3:43 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I'd do that whether you asked or not.
[3:43 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If there's nothing I feel strongly enough about to go out of my way to say so anyway.
[3:43 PM] Dusk: Yes, but there's always more subtle or useful things.
[3:43 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm not going to strongly criticize your work.
[3:44 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: With tabletop games, as with anything else, I have a very broad range of things I enjoy.
[3:44 PM] Dusk: I mean, I do understand if you feel like my work is too heavyhanded; that's a valid criticism, I think. I'm not good at the invisible hand.
[3:44 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't though.
[3:44 PM] Dusk: Mhm.
[3:45 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The GM puts in the majority of the work.
[3:45 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It requires a massive investment of time in comparison to playing, and certainly requires more work during the session itself.
[3:45 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Aside from that, players have a large amount of control over pacing and direction.
[3:45 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: This is true even in your campaigns.
[3:45 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Even if you don't think so and feel very heavy-handed.
[3:46 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If a player isn't capable of having a good time for himself/herself from the angle of direction, I'd honestly suggest another tabletop game, or a CYOA.
[3:47 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (From the standpoint of GMing myself. Others could GM 3.5/Pathfinder just fine in the style you do -- I simply don't think it's a strong point of the mechanics).
[3:49 PM] Dusk: I consider the system flexible enough to handle multiple approaches.
[3:49 PM] Dusk: The system is fairly neutral with regards to that.
[3:50 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Flexible enough is not "ideally suited for."
[3:50 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's a robust system.
[3:50 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: We talked about this.
[3:50 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: PF is basically setting itself up to be d20 GURPS.
[3:50 PM] Dusk: I don't really feel it's ideally suited for a sandbox, because I don't feel like it's "ideally suited" for any approach over another.
[3:50 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: No, I meant the opposite.
[3:51 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There are systems much better-suited to railroaded storytelling.
[3:51 PM] Dusk: I was about to say.
[3:51 PM] Dusk: That is true.
[3:53 PM] Dusk: But I don't feel like I lose much using the system (and I gain a lot in terms of build variance and mechanical integration into character playstyle).
[7:15 PM] Dusk: Seems like the login authentication sevrers are derped and ranked is down as a consequence?
[7:15 PM] Dusk: servers*
[7:15 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's unfortunate.
[7:16 PM] Dusk: I mean, it only says something about the authentication servers, but that's the only reason I can think that ranked would be down.
[7:17 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: So I never actually looked at the Mindblade archetype before, but the enhancement bonus progression is really wonky.
[7:17 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I understand what it's compensating for.
[7:17 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And honestly, as is usual, normal Magus is probably better in normal scenarios.
[7:17 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But progressing to +5 enhancement at L12 is so bizarre.
[7:18 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: (Since they can't stack weapon enhancement with their psychic weapons)
[7:19 PM] Dusk: I So Pledge still up in the air?
[7:21 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Was just checking.
[7:21 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I So Pledge is actually happening.
[7:22 PM] Dusk: Mhm.
[11:23 PM] Dusk: Session end?
[11:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah.
[11:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It happened.
[11:23 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The conversation finally ended.
[11:23 PM] Dusk: YOU GOT OFF THE BOAT
[11:24 PM] Dusk: I wonder if that'll actually be a community metaphor for years to come.
[11:24 PM] Dusk: How long was the conversation?
[11:24 PM] Dusk: In real life time?
[11:44 PM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: About an hour and twenty minutes.
[12:04 AM] Dusk: Err, I think you got the wrong meaning fo in real life time.
[12:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Oh.
[12:05 AM] Dusk: I meant it like, "the fight against that one espada guy took over a year"
[12:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I want to say nine months, but I'd need to check.
[12:29 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Any interest in kusoge?
[12:30 AM] Dusk: Sure.
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If I were to pick a reason I don't go out of my way to ask people how they're feeling about a campaign the vast majority of the time.
[1:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's because I have no doubt about the responses they would give.
[1:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: For example, I went out of my way to ask PK after the first several sessions, since while we had technically known him for a long time, he was never a major part of the Grail War chats.
[1:55 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: [17:53] Avvil: As a player, how do you feel about Veilpiercers right now?
[17:53] Regaro Ukiera: In what sense?
[17:53] Regaro Ukiera: I mean, I'm definitely enjoying it
[17:53] Avvil: Just on a very general level.
[17:54] Regaro Ukiera: I think the most specific/in-depth thing I've got to say about it is that the whole thing feels so much more alive
[17:54] Regaro Ukiera: than basically anything else tabletop I've ever played
[1:56 AM] Dusk: I honestly think a lot of it feels dead.
[1:56 AM] Dusk: It's not vibrant.
[1:56 AM] Dusk: It's deep.
[1:56 AM] Dusk: But not vibrant.
[1:56 AM] Dusk: There's a lot of thought.
[1:57 AM] Dusk: But it lacks the final quality that pushes it over the edge.
[1:57 AM] Dusk: I have no idea what it is.
[1:57 AM] Dusk: And couldn't tell you.
[1:57 AM] Dusk: But it's good but not great.
[1:57 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: [17:52] Avvil: As a player, how do you feel about Veilpiercers right now?
[19:52] SDNasura: Hmm, how to answer...

Well, I'm personally a fan of the protagonists not being main or only major factor behind a lot of things happening, such as the various leaders of the spirit tribes trying to get shit done their own ways or Ivrick? doing what he's doing. It's a bit tricky at times figuring out as a party what we should be doing or what our next course of action should be but we seem to be doing a decent enough job. Kris doesn't really have this problem, though.

Encounters seem to be constantly on a razor's edge. There are a lot of times where it feels like we're just one bad roll away from total party wipe and other times where we have one good roll that ends up making things not trivial per-se but a hell of a lot less scary. Sometimes both in the same encounter (Getting glitterdust to negate invisibility but nearly getting stomped by confusion being the most recent one). It keeps things tense and exciting, at least.

All the NPCs are fine. I really don't have much to say there. World building is pretty great too.

Aside from that, I guess the only other thing I'd say is that loot is pretty uncommon/rare to come by. Kris has gotten some thanks to his connections, but for the most part, we haven't gotten much in the way of improving ourselves. That could be part of your balance, though, so this is more of a comment of that than anything else.
[2:01 AM] Dusk: I suppose I'll have to accept that my worlds are dead in comparison, though only Common Sky has anything resembling a focus on setting.
[2:02 AM] Dusk: So what's the line here; "you're the odd one out, so the problem's with you"?
[2:02 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't really think there's anything you or I would gain if I were to comment on things I think could be better in response.
[2:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The problem isn't with you.
[2:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But you're one fourth of the people playing the campaign.
[2:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It isn't, "The problem's with you."
[2:03 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's, "Everyone else likes what we're doing."
[2:04 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That doesn't invalidate your not liking it.
[2:04 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But as I mentioned above.
[2:04 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Tabletop gaming is a disproporionate activity.
[2:04 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Due to the nature of GMing.
[2:04 AM] Dusk: Hm?
[2:05 AM] Dusk: Do you just mean your investment vs. player investment?
[2:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The GM is already investing more work to do literally everything.
[2:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yes.
[2:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It isn't a matter of, "You're wrong."
[2:05 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's, "I acknowldge you said that. We will proceed with no changes."
[2:06 AM] Dusk: Mhm.
[2:07 AM] Dusk: Oh, I checked the replay to see why I thought that trade was fine/that wouldn't have happened.
[2:07 AM] Dusk: I went in immediately after Morg missed q.
[2:07 AM] Dusk: That was probably why.
[2:07 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Do you agree they could have still collapsed back onto you?
[2:07 AM] Dusk: No, because.
[2:07 AM] Dusk: The issue is you went in late.
[2:07 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[2:07 AM] Dusk: And on the wrong person.
[2:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Well I couldn't get to the right person.
[2:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm saying, in the position you were in that point.
[2:08 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I don't think you had a way out.
[2:08 AM] Dusk: You had flash.
[2:08 AM] Dusk: To go on morgana.
[2:08 AM] Dusk: Who was literally level 1.
[2:09 AM] Dusk: Even if you weren't in the right place you could've gotten there.
[2:09 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I honestly wasn't expecting you to go after Morg.
[2:09 AM] Dusk: Juicy asf L1 Morgana.
[2:09 AM] Dusk: Who just missed q.
[2:09 AM] Dusk: Can't pass that up.
[2:09 AM] Dusk: That's a trade you're basically guaranteed to win.
[2:10 AM] Dusk: So I'm going to take that -fast-.
[2:10 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mm.
[2:10 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Anyway.
[2:11 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: As-worded, I hilariously don't actually disagree with your criticism of the world of Veilpiercers in response to what Reg said in response to me.
[2:11 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I doubt you meant it like that.
[2:11 AM] Dusk: Hm?
[2:11 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Of course the world is dead.
[2:11 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I drew the greatest inspiration in crafting it from Dark Souls.
[2:12 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which is literally a dying world.
[2:13 AM] Dusk: I see.
[2:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Do you?
[2:13 AM] Dusk: That you're just playing with words to spin things around on me, yes.
[2:13 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com:
[02:11] Avvil: But I doubt you meant it like that.
[2:14 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Either way, if that wasn't the intent, then I strongly disagree.
[2:14 AM] Dusk: Of course you do, you made it.
[2:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[2:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Well, I don't think that's automatically true.
[2:15 AM] Dusk: Only I'm neurotic enough to think things I put effort into are shit unless they're perfect.
[2:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But usually, one only reaches that point after significant growth.
[2:15 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's unbelievable arrogance to say so.
[2:16 AM] Dusk: ?
[2:16 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: To think that only you possess the humility to second-guess your own genuine work is incredibly arrogant.
[2:16 AM] Dusk: Err.
[2:16 AM] Dusk: No.
[2:16 AM] Dusk: That's not what I meant.
[2:16 AM] Dusk: To second-guess is one thing.
[2:17 AM] Dusk: Have you forgotten that I never know if anything is good or shit until it's run?
[2:17 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mm.
[2:17 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah, I definitely am not with you there.
[2:17 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That, I don't entirely understand.
[2:19 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Either way, I wouldn't consider myself a virtuoso GM, since GMing encompasses such a wide range of skills, some of which I know I don't excel at.
[2:19 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But it also encompasses many areas I do excel at, so I focus on those.
[2:21 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I have no interest in getting into a debate about the quality of my work with you, though. At best, I could shed a bit more light on my perspective, but it's still unlikely to greatly change how you feel about what you've already seen.
[2:21 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Nor do I care to disparage your work.
[2:21 AM] Dusk: I probably do it enough myself for a lifetime >_>
[2:22 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I should rephrase that.
[2:22 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The calm, withdrawn side of me does not wish to disparage your work.
[2:22 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: But I'm a very petty person.
[2:22 AM] Dusk: It's not hard to, anyways.
[2:22 AM] Dusk: TT has a paper thin veneer of a setting.
[2:23 AM] Dusk: It could occur anywhere.
[2:23 AM] Dusk: With almost no change.
[2:23 AM] Dusk: And I can think of many, many more things very easily.
[2:24 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Pursuing this is only going to result in loss.
[2:24 AM] Dusk: Well, I think there is a tangent that might be interesting.
[2:25 AM] Dusk: Though you could swat it down quick.
[2:25 AM] Dusk: I think Kris has probably been an easier character to play in most situations the game has provided.
[2:26 AM] Dusk: Because of who Kris is.
[2:26 AM] Dusk: Some of that is obviously no coincidence, since Kris guides a lot of events.
[2:26 AM] Dusk: But in general, Kris just has major character aspects the slot well into most of the events we've taken part in.
[2:26 AM] Dusk: that*
[2:27 AM] Dusk: He has natural opinions or contributions to make in many cases.
[2:27 AM] Dusk: I have definitely played characters that have not had that sort of all-encompassing fit.
[2:28 AM] Dusk: So that could easily skew my perception to some degree.
[2:29 AM] Dusk: It's not really about having something to pursue or not having something to pursue, in this case.
[2:29 AM] Dusk: It's more that showcasing aspects of Kris's personality has been easier.
[2:30 AM] Dusk: Do you think that makes any sense?
[2:30 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yes, though I'm not sure what the end point is.
[2:30 AM] Dusk: There's not really one.
[2:31 AM] Dusk: I don't think that's bad by any means.
[2:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: On three separate instances, Gabriella was directly forced into the forefront.
[2:31 AM] Dusk: I don't mean forced plot interactions.
[2:31 AM] Dusk: It's more things like.
[2:31 AM] Dusk: Kris has X interests.
[2:31 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Well, I don't even mean forced in that way.
[2:31 AM] Dusk: Kris likes to negotiate things.
[2:32 AM] Dusk: Kris has defined opinions on things that obviously affect his goals.
[2:32 AM] Dusk: And a lot of things obviously affect his goals.
[2:33 AM] Dusk: And that manner of having those opinions -itself- is very Kris-like.
[2:33 AM] Dusk: Not so much the opinions, but the attachment and kind of involvement that's displayed.
[2:33 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Sure, just as Kamiyo's uninvolvement with everything is very Kamiyo-like.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's part of her character, how she expresses herself.
[2:34 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Or in this case, lack thereof.
[2:37 AM] Dusk: Hm.
[2:38 AM] Dusk: Actually, Kris would be the character you most sympathize with based on what I'm allowed to see.
[2:39 AM] Dusk: I don't mean that to imply any favoritism.
[2:39 AM] Dusk: But I more mean that.
[2:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: No, you're absolutely correct.
[2:39 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That's 100% right.
[2:39 AM] Dusk: In a campaign made by you, a character with those traits would naturally fit better.
[2:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Absolutely unrelated, but I just discovered that it's possible to soft lock FTL in the version after the major patch.
[2:42 AM] Dusk: That's... awkward, for sure.
[2:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Well, it isn't a bug.
[2:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's an unrecognized fail state.
[2:42 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: There's an augment that functions in conjunction with the Clone Bay system.
[2:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Which is Backup DNA Bank.
[2:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Even if the Clone Bay is depowered or destroyed, the crew resurrection queue doesn't get cleared.
[2:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: As long as the crew resurrection queue exists, you don't lost.
[2:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Even if the Clone Bay is destroyed and all your crew are dead.
[2:43 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Meaning there is no one to repair the Clone Bay.
[2:44 AM] Dusk: rofl
[2:44 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: lose*
[2:44 AM] Dusk: Oh, I realized a really fucking intuitive way to think about that attempted trade (that may actually make playing the game easier for me, honestly).
[2:45 AM] Dusk: Literally.
[2:45 AM] Dusk: A whiff punish.
[2:45 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Mhm.
[2:45 AM] Dusk: Wish I'd thought like that earlier rip
[2:46 AM] Dusk: What happens if you softlock in FTL, though?
[2:46 AM] Dusk: Do you just end up unable to take any actions while you drift endlessly in space?
[2:46 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Just need to manually restart.
[2:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Yeah.
[2:47 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: You can't warp without a pilot.
[2:48 AM] Dusk: Ahh.
[2:48 AM] Dusk: So clearly, they should patch in space AI instead.
[2:48 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Psh.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: AI has existed since the original.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It is horrifically broken.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Scariest thing in the game, by far.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I think I even mentioned it before.
[2:49 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: It's the "get fucked" mode of the final boss.
[2:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Since they didn't want it to be possible to win just by eliminating the entire enemy crew.
[2:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: If you kill all the crew of the final encounter.
[2:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: The AI activates.
[2:50 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: And the AI is much, much scarier than the whole crew combined.
[2:51 AM] Dusk: So you kill everyone but one person. :3
[2:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I mean.
[2:51 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: That is actually literally the strat.
[2:51 AM] Dusk: rofl
[2:54 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I do think it's amazing that the game has a robust enough set of mechanics to support twenty-eight extremely different starting ships with alternate strategies, strengths, and weaknesses.
[2:54 AM] Dusk: Damn.
[3:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: I'm out.
[3:00 AM] avvilgarrant@gmail.com: Night, Dusk.
[3:00 AM] Dusk: Night, Avvil.