Friendly vs Elick Tad Judgement

####Elick 1:

* Meta busts concrete pillar, projectiles warthog. Takes minigun rounds, scales to Tex. Timestop, has gun, invis.

"Scales to tex" doesn't link to them interacting, it's just meta being pierced by pistol rounds.

* Kumoko has webs. Can make a lot of webs. Can precision guide her web projectiles.

I would have liked to see a claim for how *strong* the webs in question are. There's the scan of a strand blocking a sword, but it's not claimed as web strength, just listed under "can do normal spiderweb stuff."

* Kumoko can sprout stone spikes, black bullets/spears, poison projectiles.

Again---I would cite how sharp the spikes/spears are and how deadly the poison is.

* Bunch of utility stuff.

* Also Kumoko is fast and durable.

* Kumoko shits webs everywhere to boobytrap the island, and then kills enemies who get stuck in them with offensive magic. Has high degree of knowledge of enemy thanks to Appraisal, will find the magic that best counters weaknesses.

* Meta takes point. Kumoko follows him setting up traps.

* Kumoko has high speed parallel thought processing which will help her keep track of web traps & make sure she doesn't do any friendly fire on Meta. Has Panoptic Vision for scouting the island.

* Kain doesn't real. All his feats are actually other people's feats with guesswork he should scale above them.

* RT claims to scale above Raziel, yet Raziel says he surpassed Kain. Contradictory statements.

* Kain's actual showings doing stuff personally is lame boss fight patterns standing still and letting himself get hit.

* Even if Raziel scaling were real, only feat is moving big blocks. Fails to oneshot fodder enemies.

* Friendly needs to prove that Kain doesn't fight like a dumb boss fight, has real durability, has real offence able to hurt Team Elick.

* Zero's power is inconsistent in regards to what he can and cannot predict.

* Friendly needs to take a position on whether team elick's esoteric powers would be too unexpected for Zero to predict.

* Zero dies to a normal man punching him, and his sword gets blocked by axes and riot shields. Team Elick can oneshot, Zero can't oneshot back, and his strikes get blocked.

####Friendly 1:

* The way the Kain/Raziel fight plays out in that game is overwritten by subsequent cutscene. Kain manhandles Raziel, and doesn't take much damage from his blows.

* Raziel & Kain's relationship explains why they weren't fighting all out and taking pauses to listen to each other monologue.

* Kain can turn to mist to dodge enemy attacks.

* Kain shatters large boulders + metal objects & pushes around big stone blocks.

* Kain only takes nicks from soul blade which reduces crowds of demons to gore.

* Raziel claiming he's surpassed Kain is just Raziel being an idiot.

* Raziel's claws stab into metal/stone. Greater piercing force than a .50 cal.

* Kain/Raziel not oneshotting enemies is gameplay. In comic he's shown to oneshot them.

It would do you more credit to link specific pages of Kain doing impressive things rather than gesturing to the entire comic.

* Kain can use TK to rip the blood out of opponent's bodies and immobilise them.

* Raziel vs Kain rematch, showcases Kaim turning to mist to dodge, 66 ms attack animations.

* Kain can use his emblems to set Elick's team on fire, force them to fight each other, debuff them to move in slow motion, rapidly teleport, reflect damage, etc.

* Kain's sword embeds through a human torso into stone and absorbs souls

* Kain elder god scaling - shatters large amounts of stone but by admission can't kill Kain.

* Zero antifeats - contextualised by drug withdrawal, hallucinations, Zero not constantly using his ability. Can only process a few minutes at a time, can't memorise entire level's worth of combat.

* Zero is fast---slows bullet midair to deflect it.

* Wincon---Zero sees the future and evaluates different plans of attack until he and Kain find something that works. Kain berserks Meta w/ flame emblem and forces him to fight Kumoko or restrains Elick's team with TK and rips their blood out. Or just stabs + soul absorbs.

* Threatens, but does not deliver, Meta OOT on the basis of his time stop.

* Kain can use TK to remove Kumoko's webs---strong enough to rip apart chunks of stone ceiling.

* Kain's abilities are all deadly "though a prolonged battle cannot go his way due to the speed disparity."

Selling yourself short kind of undermines you're arguments.

* "I was under the impression slashing, piercing, and blunt feats were counted separately?"

While it's generally true that swords and fists are treated very differently in fiction, I think the difference between stabbing someone with the tip of a sword and slashing with the edge of it aren't significantly divergent to assume there's some special resistance to one but not the other without evidence.

* Meta is hurt by bullets, so Zero/Kain can hurt him with their swords. Kumoko is not resistant to being pierced, just resilient to bodily injuries.

* Kain takes the OST win

Shit's cool

####Elick 2:

* Friendly simultaneously claims we should throw out gameplay feats for weakening characters for the sake of game balance, but also uses gameplay feats of character strength.

* Why should we assume Kain's portrayal in the comic overrides his portrayal in gameplay?

* Many characters do not have their powers arbitrarily nerfed to balance gameplay---MGR Raiden is exactly as fast/strong in game as he is in cutscenes. Why should we automatically assume Kain's physicals in gameplay are inconsistent with his intended cutscene/narrative capabilities?

* Meta & Kumoko will be undetectable until they choose to engage. Meta is stealthy with invis. Kumoko moves silently and disguises her location w/ illusions. Her threads are so thin they're basically invisible.

* Kumoko has a minimap and will always know where the enemy are.

* Kain doesn't get the opportunity to use any of his various abilities, because fights will be decided quickly, and the engagement will be controlled by team Elick.

* Kumoko's hazards will throw the enemy off. Kumoko will have full analysis of them she can communicate with Meta.

* Reiterating all the different ways Team Elick have to attack and kill Kain

Again i would like to have seen a showing for how strong black bullets are, how deadly the poison is, etc. but given no claimed resistance to poison from the enemy team that last one is less important.

* Kain plays with his food, is overconfident, and loves to monologue. He doesn't open with the lethal options Friendly suggests he'll use.

* If Kain doesn't open with his most powerful attacks then he dies.

* Kain's propensity to blab means Kumoko will know even more about his capabilities using remote scrying.

* Big long comparison of Zero's power to King Crimson in regards to how it's inconsistent. It is more likely the authors simply did not plan every detail of this fictional ability than that there is a universal all inclusive complex explanation for it.

* Chronos users should not even be able to fight to a losing outcome, because logically they would just have an endless stalemate

* If we blame Chronos withdrawal for the inconsistencies in the power, then logically Zero just runs out of drugs because he's stuck on a big island with long travel distances.

* Kumoko will know of this weakness to exploit because of her panopticon vision.

* Kumoko could "cure" the effects of the drug and deprive Zero of his powers.

* Zero is still flimsy and gets oneshot.

####Friendly 2:

* Judges should ignore Elick's long discussion of king crimson. Elick should be able to argue these points using the franchises at play instead of appealing outside of them.

I kind of agree. I think Elick has a point but he didn't need to post and dissect a fan theory video at length, coulda just said "that's just a fantheory" and left it at that and I would've been about as convinced.

* Friendly doesn't have to choose between false dichotomy of games or comics. Kain oneshotting human enemies in the comic and having scripted strength that can shatter stone means we should assume he is superhuman. Kain always oneshots any human he deals with in a cutscene.

Yep that tracks. I watched him shish kabob that moebius guy in the "elder god" video

* Burden of proof is on elick to further substantiate Kain's weakness beyond the one interaction.

* Why would Kain spell out why his powers work? He doesn't do that in any of the linked videos.

Actually he does, he talks to himself about what the Emblems he picks up can do, but given that's in the context of him discovering them for the first time I can let that slide

 * Kain's opponents are not humans he would underestimate. Kain would not feel in control enough to monologue given he's been portalled to a multiversal tournament against his will.

* Kain teleports away when caught in a disadvantageous position.

* The bullets in Meta's "bullet timing" feats move considerably faster than anybody in the fight.

* "There's no dialogue saying he's as fast as Carolina"

I mean they're trading blows there so if they were meant to be on completely different levels speed wise, the fight's not showing it.

* Meta's invis would be bad in an environment with constant rain and lots of mud.

* Kumoko had already met the opponents she was shown to track up close. Does tracking magic stick to people if they change their form like Kain turns to mist? No great amount of detail on the range of Kumoko's tracking. Does it function with objects in the way like trees? Not enough info.

* Kumoko's webs are gonna be catching dinosaurs, blown around by wind, lots of false positives on her traps.

* Kain turning into bats or mist (was the bats thing provided a scan? I didn't see one) might throw her off since she's hunting for enemies, not mist

* Withdrawal doesn't weaken Chronos users, it just makes them go crazy

* Zero winning against a Chronos user is because they are hallucinating and off their game.

* Meta cannot do anything against Chronos, he's too slow.

* Kumoko can't cure Chronos, no scans indicating she could purge a body of drugs.

* The match can take as long as it has to because Kain doesn't need to eat and can easily drain blood from wildlife.

* Kain could eat Zero and gain his powers. It's implied Headhunter can get the effects of Chronos out of Zero's blood already and Kain has historically done this.

* Zero would agree to this, because Zero wants to avoid being stuck in time and has a martyr complex already over killing everybody.

* "Kain bolstered by Chronos isn't on a team, isn't the Kain I entered for singular combat, and isn't getting these benefits because of the arena. "

Right but Kain getting Chronos is a result of placing Kain and Zero on a team and the specific interactions of their abilities (blood drinking + bloodstream full of time drugs) so it would still fall under a team OOT.

It's the same logic you couldn't run Bruce Banner + A Gamma Bomb on a team even though technically after the gamma bomb exploded there would only be the Hulk left and not a team of two people.

* Lot of stuff about Kain being immune to side effects of Chronos because he has feats for searching through the timestream without going crazy (CTRL + F)

As creative as this whole thing is, without a linked feat, I have to treat it as though it doesn't exist in-round. It might be annoying to have to link feats every time you want to claim something but them's the breaks.

* Elick believing Zero's power is OOT implies he thinks it could stomp his team.

* Kain's mist form remains uncountered.

* Kain has a strong enough sword that neither Meta or Kumoko could resist his attacks.

* There is also no resistance to Kain ripping their blood out.

####Results:

Okay lot of stuff going on here, and a lot of stuff introduced at the last minute, including a whole new strategy contingent on the fact I forgor to put up the "no team kills" rule but that's not on Friendly.

Let's go over the basics:

**Things I Buy:**

* Meta & Kumoko are faster than Kain
* Kumoko's scouting works as described. In the scans it's clearly occurring across decent distances, and the dungeon is comparably complex as the island.
* Kain can break free of the webs using his TK (the webs had no argued tensile strength and he busts decent amounts of stone using TK)
* Kain's sword/claws are sharp enough to cut through either of Elick's picks.
* Kain's TK could rip the blood out of either of Elick's picks
* Kain could resist the piercing of either of Elick's picks per scaling to the sword turning six demons into paste.
* Zero dies to literally anything!!! :(
* Given the round goes on long enough, Zero gets withdrawal symptoms and hallucinates

**Things I Don't Buy:**


* Kumoko can't "heal" Chronos out of Zero's body.
* I think Zero's power works as intended. Maybe it's inconsistent at times in the story, but he's clearly able to use it productively in combat, which is what matters here. Friendly had enough reasonable explanations for the examples Elick gave.
* Zero's sword can't efficiently kill the Meta. No piercing feats were given for it, so it's stuck as "a sword" where Meta wades through high volumes of minigun fire without significant injury. Even in the feat where the bullets perforate him, he stays upright and fighting.
* Kumoko's earth spikes and razor webs will struggle to cut Kain. See: scaling to the sword that pastes 6 demons. Nothing above that was provided for her webs/spikes.
* Kain probably doesn't explain how all of his powers work lol. However, by the burden of most evidence provided, he does seem to behave haughtily and not rush to his most lethal esoteric options first.
 * I don't buy the "Kain drinks Zero's blood" argument. No scans were provided evidencing that Chronos is transferrable by blood, or that Kain can copy abilities by blood drinking as claimed. Slightly more evidence was provided that it might be in character for Kain and Zero to agree to this strategy, but overall, owing to lack of evidence and the fact all of this was introduced so abruptly in the final inning without a chance for Elick to contest, I'm inclined to consider it less pressing for my analysis of the round than other more established points.

**Elick Wins.**

As argued, Elick's team are the proactive ones here. Meta invisibly stalks & Kumoko sets traps. I would've liked to have seen more evidence that Kumoko's webs are durable/sharp, or that her poison is lethal, but as it stands, neither of Team Friendly have any argued resistance to poisons (Friendly gestured towards Kain being resistant, but did not provide a scan) so it doesn't matter that much.

Zero is undeniably on a timer before he runs out of Chronos and loses his mind, and could be dropped by any of Elick's offenses. Kain has realer physicals, and options that would hurt Elick's team, but an argued effective combat speed of 66 milliseconds per attack and acknowledged reaction time shortcomings.

The simple reality is that Kain does not have sufficient reaction or movement speed to enact his offensive/defensive options before he gets punched and stunlocked to death by Meta or doused in poison by Kumoko.

Owing to the fact that Zero's frailty and lack of stamina means he'll drop first, I have to give it to Elick on the basis that Kain is too slow to handle the likely 2v1.

Elick, going forward, I would like to see more direct claims for the damage output of Kumoko's spells. Also, don't get caught up drafting such elaborate comparative explanations that you lose the plot. Other than that, solid round, your team is functional.

Friendly, while I did have a lot of fun reading your arguments, they ultimately came off as unfocused---like a person gushing to you about this really cool thing they like, rather than an efficiently presented and organised debate. Consider formatting the way Elick did where you present relevant showings in each stat category and then compare those against your opponent.

Also for the love of god get your feats off internet archive lmao I had to wait so long for that stuff to load.