RS vs Wolf Tad Judgement

####yTiger / Wolf vs R S:

###Wolf Intro:

* Banner is Hypno-Hulk. Joe is Sunshine Joe.

* Both look identical until Banner hulks out.

* Hulks are universally immune to military grade weapons.

###RS 1:

* Baymax scans entire arena, flies fast, closes in half a minute to a minute.

* Rocket Fist hits hard, is accurate, could ricochet to take out both Joe and Bruce together.

* Banner shields are reduced by 50% by a boulder hitting it without shattering.

* Hohoho I have a character with flight and range and Wolf said characters with flight and range win this tier

* Hulk can't sneak up on Baymax like he does other fliers bc scanning.

* Baymax can use rocket fists while flying evasively.

He gets hit in the "dodge grabs" scan, and loses an arm in the "flying and dodging" one.

* Banner does not have the mindset to abuse gear---he's the hulk, he's going to go hulk mode.

I'm amenable to being convinced by this. I definitely see a scenario in which Bruce goes "Sit down Joe I'm handling this" and just immediately Hulk jumps the opponent.

I'd need a little more evidence for this behaviour than just choosing to engage gamma mutates as hulk though.

* Bruce won't have time to coordinate with Joe before Baymax closes---"It takes time for him to discuss with others."

This scan isn't particularly persuasive on this point---he's showing a digital dossier of a known enemy. In this scenario he doesn't know who he'll be fighting so he has neither the ability nor motivation to do a slideshow on them first. I don't know that pulling a gun and a forcefield generator out of his bag and handing them to Joe would take very long.

###Wolf 1:

* Banner hulking out and brawling as his go-to move is contextualised by Hulk being unkillable, where in this scenario, he's tied to a guy with human physicals living or dying.

* RS provided limited scans to evidence his characterisation of Banner.

* The antifeats aren't.

* Hulk keeps getting stronger the longer he fights and madder he gets. Baymax has a ceiling, Hulk doesn't. Can't wear Hulk down.

* Don't use discord scan arguments that's lame.

* Baymax's rocket fist fails to meaningfully damage a brick wall, only dents mental vs Hulk taking bigly concrete busting tank flipping charges.

That's an unarmoured human convict scaling the wall + hiro was right in harm's way if he knocked it down. Idk if he wanted to go all out there. We'll see if RS picks up on that. There's also a scan showing that the Akuma Island facility metal is way stronger than normal metal but I'm only mentioning this to cover my own ass when I use the metal scan again someday.

* The statue feat is worse than Hulk's durability feats because the latter is rebar reinforced.

* Actual Baymax averages weaker than idealised Tier Baymax.

* Hits from Juggernaut that cause earthquakes that split the ground a ways away don't oneshot the shield. The whole point of the shields is to let humans survive engagements with Hulks. The boulder feat is in fact a Hulk throwing it.

* Hulk shields go up quickly enough time needs to be slowed for a bullet to land and can extend to others so Baymax closing quickly isn't a problem. Bruce / Joe can also teleport to buy more time / distance.

* Baymax doesn't fight as described IC. Wolf's team does.

* Reminder this is a 2v1 of both Joe and Bruce vs Baymax. Joe can hurt Baymax and take a hit back.

###RS 2:

* Baymax's rocket fist antifeat is because he's a compassionate caretaker robot who wouldn't just demolish someone's apartment for no reason. Other example of him not going all out with rocket fist intentionally.

Yes, and more pertinently, two humans are right in the way.

* Steel >>> stone. The dent is very impressive given the material.

* Other good feats for rocket fist.

Where are his other physicals? He has them, so why not post them instead of leaving it all up to the rocket fist?

* Baymax uses flight to dodge and when he doesn't there are plot reasons.

I think Wolf's major contention wasn't that Baymax wouldn't fly, just that he wouldn't kite and stay at range forever rather than closing and punching.

* Hulk needs his opponents to stand around gloating to bounce back and hit them after being staggered. Reference to Wolf's tier justification.

* The mausoleum giant is dirt actually.

* Even if Baymax gets Hulk jumped he can use the rocket fists as a get off me tool.

* Banner can't share shields as hulk because it drains gamma to charge.

* Shield downplay. "This is obviously a very small and localized earthquake."

It's indirectly splitting the ground from a solid distance. That's huge.

* Even if Banner teleports Fixit away or shields him that still leaves him tied up using his tech instead of giving it to Fixit.

###Wolf 2:


* Baymax does not close fast enough that Bruce and Joe don't get the opportunity to just teleport somewhere else and pass gear between them.

* Huge list of scans showing Bruce uses teleportation the way wolf describes effectively in fights.

* Rocket Fist is not fast it is a cartoon missile. Hulk catches it and if he does Baymax is amputated.

* Iron Man scaling - way better than anything shown for Baymax.

* Reiterating Hulk physicals. Doesn't matter if Creel is dirt, sheer size is impressive to move with a punch.

* Iron Man sending tanks flying with a charge is equivalent to the shipping container rocket fist feat at worst.

* Judges I'll literally sell you my house look at my tank feat

I see the tank feat Wolf.

* The Bannertech gadgets don't need gamma Bruce was depowered in the arc he was using them constantly. People use Bannertech in contexts they would have no gamma logically.

* You are not stronger than Juggernaut.

Correct.

* Even if Creel had dirt making up his big monster body he also had a concrete/metal building underneath.

* Hulk dominates Baymax in any physical confrontation and it gets more one-sided the longer the fight goes and the madder he gets.

####Conclusion:

It feels odd ruling on a character I have experience running in a tournament, because there are definitely arguments Wolf makes I know there are substantiated answers to, but that I can't factor without RS having made them himself.

As it stands I think this isn't an easy fight for Baymax, and it's even harder given how little RS pressed his physicals outside of the rocket fist in a match that's quickly going to devolve into a slugout. Yes, the rocket fists are Baymax's signature "action feature" that make him appealing to run but they need to function in tandem with his baseline capabilities to be a good combo piece. Putting all your eggs in one basket on them is like if you ran Ryu Street Fighter and spent an entire round posting his Hadouken while forgetting to mention how hard he punches or kicks.

Wolf is right that throwing out a ranged rocket fist is more dangerous to Baymax than it is to Hulk. If it misses or Hulk catches it, Baymax loses a limb. If it lands, Hulk can get back up madder and stronger.

I actually agree with RS that the apartment building feat is better understood as Baymax holding back (because there are two people he doesn't want to kill climbing that wall), but Wolf still has a point that the tiersetter benefits from culling Baymax's lower averages, and Hulk's scaling to Iron Man's rock formation busting / tank flipping charges is just too good to overcome easily with single attacks. The argued route around this for RS is for Baymax to combo off his ranged opening, but combo into what? He only has two rocket fists, and RS did not present any melee feats he could use when charging in to close the distance (which he demonstrably does in character) so there's little to go off of mitigating Hulk's undeniable strength advantages.

And then on top of that the round is functionally a 2v2 with Joe Fixit firing rebar/concrete/metal busting energy beams and wearing a shield that takes hits that split the ground from indirect shockwave collateral. The shield downplay didn't work for me. That's a Hulk throwing a boulder I don't think it really matters they didn't draw it shattering this time for the same reason it's not an antifeat to take Hulk whacking you with a sedan if the sedan doesn't instantly explode in the same panel.

I can appreciate why RS went for the strategy of trying to argue the shield never comes into play in the first place, but even assuming 30 seconds before Baymax arrives I don't think that's too much time for Joe to ask for weapons and for Bruce to hand them over and also yeah they could just teleport to buy space or share a shield to start with.

To recap:

* Bruce/Hulk can take Baymax's ranged opener.
* Joe Fixit can shield Baymax's ranged opener.
* If Bruce dodges or catches Baymax's ranged opener he can't do it anymore.
* If Bruce hulkjumps Baymax or Baymax charges into melee he loses with no showings for his normal punches on Hulk's level.
* If Baymax tries to hang back in the air he gets shot by Joe or hulkjumped or Hulk throws a boulder the size of a large boulder at him.
* Old Man Henderson is a nonentity.

**Wolf wins.**