[20:28] Minority Suspect: can't you condense to the main ideas
[20:30] Disaster Area: ok basically
[20:31] Disaster Area: the tier where we start doing usage-based tiering
[20:31] Disaster Area: would be what's currently ubers but with a handful of bans
[20:31] Minority Suspect: why
[20:31] Disaster Area: something like the pp oras ubers thing I've been doing (but maybe slightly adjusted)
[20:31] Minority Suspect: what reasoning supports that
[20:31] Disaster Area: well
[20:31] Disaster Area: OU is a mess ubers is a mess is the first thing
[20:31] Minority Suspect: not really
[20:31] Disaster Area: it's mainly to do with in OU how the
[20:31] Minority Suspect: you can't prove that
[20:31] Disaster Area: well
[20:31] Disaster Area: have a read of the thing
[20:31] Minority Suspect: and a lot of people would disagree
[20:31] Disaster Area: I am bad at
[20:31] Disaster Area: explaining stuff
[20:31] Disaster Area: but I did it pretty well
[20:31] Disaster Area: in the log imo
[20:31] Disaster Area: =/
[20:32] Minority Suspect: just give me the thesis of the log
[20:34] Disaster Area: gah too much effort but basically it boils down to OU is too diverse cos megas is approximately in a way like having
[20:34] Disaster Area: one uber per team in a sense
[20:34] Disaster Area: and redoing the tiering from the top
[20:34] Disaster Area: makes more sense
[20:34] Disaster Area: owel either way I've managed
[20:35] Disaster Area: to get m dragon to agree to
[20:35] Disaster Area: read it later
[20:35] Disaster Area: :)
[20:35] Disaster Area: fwiw
[20:35] Disaster Area: shrang agrees
[20:35] Disaster Area: fireburn disagrees
[20:35] Minority Suspect: just put it in a readable form
[20:35] Minority Suspect: like its not that hard
[20:35] Disaster Area: one of the mods in the ubers room, the only I've thus spoken to, sharpteeth, agrees
[20:35] Disaster Area: ye I guess I should
[20:35] Disaster Area: try and work out a summary
[20:36] Minority Suspect: wait how is OU too diverse
[20:36] Minority Suspect: and why would that be a problem
[20:36] Disaster Area: OU is too diverse to the point where
[20:36] Disaster Area: you can't check every top rank (see like A rank) thread
[20:36] Disaster Area: using only 6 pokemon
[20:36] Disaster Area: like almost whatever you do, some high ranking pokemon will probably 6-0 you, etc
[20:36] Minority Suspect: in general you want a diverse tier or the game is solved
[20:36] Disaster Area: yeah I'm not saying
[20:36] Disaster Area: shoot for zero diversity
[20:37] Disaster Area: but this is diverse to the point where
[20:37] Disaster Area: you can't teambuild properly -> matches become hugely based on matchup factor
[20:37] Disaster Area: without any way to resolve it internally i.e. within the given ruleset
[20:37] Minority Suspect: what did you propose?
[20:37] Disaster Area: that we make the first tier with which we do usage
[20:37] Disaster Area: be something akin to pp oras ubers, rather than current ou
[20:37] Disaster Area: ie ubers w/o primals mega mence shadow tag evasion maybe geo/evasion too
[20:38] Minority Suspect: top usage mons would simply be Ubers
[20:38] Minority Suspect: + a few non-Ubers
[20:38] Disaster Area: i know but
[20:38] Disaster Area: well yeah
[20:39] Disaster Area: and the problem is..?
[20:39] Minority Suspect: how is the definitevly better than the current system
[20:39] Minority Suspect: *that
[20:39] Minority Suspect: all it does is further undermine the allure of the top tier
[20:39] Disaster Area: because you no longer have the matchup based issues, the tier below it would have a reduced number of megas and thus less matchup issues
[20:40] Minority Suspect: thats all assumption
[20:40] Disaster Area: and the flagship tier would no longer be one which is plagued with those issues
[20:40] Disaster Area: well
[20:40] Disaster Area: I've started testing pp oras ubers
[20:40] Disaster Area: that's as much as i can do atm
[20:40] Disaster Area: to bring assumptions from theory into actually evidenced ideas
[20:40] Disaster Area: =/
[20:41] Minority Suspect: problem seems to be that you are continually fracturing subsets of brokenness
[20:41] Minority Suspect: which I don't see how it can solve the core problem
[20:41] Minority Suspect: since how broken a mon is, is relative
[20:41] Disaster Area: well the thing is that
[20:41] Disaster Area: the whole
[20:41] Disaster Area: mega thing
[20:41] Disaster Area: doesn't always
[20:41] Disaster Area: lead to a meta being broken but
[20:41] Disaster Area: as it stands
[20:41] Disaster Area: the meta is broken
[20:41] Disaster Area: and a ban or two or a drop or two
[20:42] Disaster Area: won't fix it
[20:42] Disaster Area: it's worth noting though
[20:42] Disaster Area: that xy ou at the end was
[20:42] Disaster Area: generally considered balanced
[20:42] Disaster Area: by the playerbase
[20:43] Minority Suspect: why are you even talking about Megas being Uber in OU
[20:43] Minority Suspect: aren't the S rank threats
[20:43] Minority Suspect: not even all Mega
[20:45] Disaster Area: yeah that's true but it doesn't change the fact OU is in a bit of a mess from the viewpoint of most talented players involved
[20:45] Disaster Area: and the amount of megas is a significant contributor
[20:45] Minority Suspect: I think people just like to complain about current circumstances
[20:45] Disaster Area: yeah I get that but you can definitely compare
[20:45] Disaster Area: volumes of complaining
[20:45] Disaster Area: e.g. there's loooooads more complaining now
[20:45] Disaster Area: than end of XY
[20:45] Disaster Area: as in outside of because
[20:45] Disaster Area: new stuff was about to join
[20:45] Disaster Area: meaning a drop in complaining
[20:46] Disaster Area: yeah sure there'll always be complaining but there's tons and tons of top players all complaining, and generally they're complaining about slightly different things each time
[20:47] Minority Suspect: I think just because "top" players are bitching doesn't neccesarily mean there is a problem
[20:48] Minority Suspect: I think the most important thing is to stick to the truths of game theory