#reddit-geb Discussion, 01/18/12, part 2

[2012-01-18 21::09:40] » Topic changed to "Tonight, we discuss the first two sections of the introduction. At the moment, we are only doing scheduled discussions Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays at 7pm UTC+1 and 7pm UTC-8. We can follow the reddit schedule more closely if people want to, however." by ChanServ.
[2012-01-18 21::10:15] » GErBils joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::10:22] FoglyOgly: Alright. So how is everyone finding the introduction so far?
[2012-01-18 21::11:32] nillacat: Liked the connection between the rising cannon and the rising staircase
[2012-01-18 21::12:06] Mr_Donk: rising staircase?
[2012-01-18 21::12:21] FoglyOgly: That's an Escher painting, I believe.
[2012-01-18 21::12:37] nillacat: yes, the print in fig 6:
[2012-01-18 21::12:50] nillacat: staircase seems to always be ascending. can't be.
[2012-01-18 21::13:02] colo: so we won't be discussing Godel?
[2012-01-18 21::13:29] kateyphi: i hope there's enough to talk about in the first two sections without people skipping ahead....glanced at the transcript from the earlier discussion and there seemed to be a lot of skipping ahead
[2012-01-18 21::13:56] kateyphi: i dont know what the plan is, though, if that's ok
[2012-01-18 21::14:46] nillacat: musicians here? I started piano recently. working on some baby bach - but not fugues or canons
[2012-01-18 21::15:10] colo: for me, it's kind of hard to relate to the music references, so I didn't quite get most of it (have a CS backgroud)
[2012-01-18 21::15:24] FoglyOgly: kateyphi: There's not a whole lot in the first two sections. That's kinda why I think it's ok to not have IRC discussions every day. However, the concepts Hofstadter develops here are pretty important so it might be worth taking it slower. Just depends on what people want to do.
[2012-01-18 21::15:33] Mr_Donk: the stair case is descending and ascending depending how you look at right? how is that related to the endlessly rising cannon?
[2012-01-18 21::16:14] GErBils: I have been finding Strange Loops everywhere
[2012-01-18 21::16:34] nillacat: the canon changes key - ends a step up from where it starts. if you keep going, you come back to initial pitch. like the staircase
[2012-01-18 21::16:49] nillacat: GerBils, what sorts of Loops?
[2012-01-18 21::17:28] kateyphi: i remember the author using a phrase like "upside down" in describing how a melody can be changed in a fugue, i think. related to an upside down staircase but with appropriate gravity?
[2012-01-18 21::19:05] FoglyOgly: kateyphi: Bach liked to use inversions in his fugues, where the steps up and down in the theme are inverted. I believe the staircase in Bach's painting was more closely related to the endlessly rising canon, though.
[2012-01-18 21::19:59] kateyphi: yeah, i remember....let me find it
[2012-01-18 21::21:29] Mr_Donk: nillacat: Sorry I am confused maybe you understand this better. The cannon begins in one key and comes back to that key but the pitch of the key it returns to is an octave higher?
[2012-01-18 21::22:08] FoglyOgly: Mr_Donk: I believe the canon's key modulates one step higher each time, not a whole octave.
[2012-01-18 21::23:20] deadling: 1 step each time, if you play it 8 times (8 steps) you are back to the same key (1 octave hight), right?
[2012-01-18 21::23:31] deadling: higher*
[2012-01-18 21::23:35] FoglyOgly: I believe that's correct.
[2012-01-18 21::23:39] kateyphi: after his description of canons, "a fugue is like a canon, in that it is usually based on one theme which gets played in different voices and different keys, and ocassionally at different speeds or upside down or backwards" i suppose 'upside down' just refers to inversion but it's a more colorful description i guess, ....visual description
[2012-01-18 21::23:45] FoglyOgly: Except, it wouldn't be one whole step each time.
[2012-01-18 21::24:19] » Boriss joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::24:20] » Boriss left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::24:20] » Boriss joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::24:42] Boriss: Hello!  I am late, I'm afraid
[2012-01-18 21::24:55] deadling: you missed it, we explained everything
[2012-01-18 21::25:03] deadling: ;)
[2012-01-18 21::25:20] FoglyOgly: could swear he's heard that one before...
[2012-01-18 21::25:28] deadling: heh
[2012-01-18 21::25:31] deadling: shhhh
[2012-01-18 21::25:43] Boriss: hehe
[2012-01-18 21::25:55] Boriss: there wasn't a hell of a lot in the first 0.2 sections
[2012-01-18 21::26:03] Atterall: Where would one look for information about music theory if he/she didn't know an octave from an octet ?
[2012-01-18 21::26:19] Boriss: wikipedia's back up
[2012-01-18 21::26:42] FoglyOgly: uses Wikipedia for music theory... and it's not back up for me.
[2012-01-18 21::26:51] FoglyOgly: But you could just turn off JavaScript
[2012-01-18 21::26:55] colo: either way, I think the "gist" of it is that you'd expect tones to be hierarchical; that is, you'd expect one tone to be always "higher" or "lower" than another one, but Bach somehow figures out a loop
[2012-01-18 21::27:15] Boriss: Was anyone else constantly thinking back to Zelda's Majora's Mask in the sections about Bach's play on a theme - backwards, slower, up/down etc?
[2012-01-18 21::27:27] Boriss: sorry, don't want to meme-inize everything, just curious
[2012-01-18 21::27:47] » tictacaddict joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::28:03] FoglyOgly: Boriss: I think others have mentioned being reminded of MM. I've never played it myself, unfortunately.
[2012-01-18 21::28:09] deadling: atterall: http://www.teoria.com/reference/c/countersubject.php?l=C has a lot of music terms
[2012-01-18 21::28:38] Atterall: deadling: thanks.. looking up chrome settings to trun of JS as well
[2012-01-18 21::28:59] » racksonracks joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::29:00] koolkalang: If wikipedia is still blocking you just press esc before the message pops up
[2012-01-18 21::29:14] koolkalang: faster than turning off javascript :)
[2012-01-18 21::29:18] Atterall: that worked
[2012-01-18 21::29:33] deadling: or put ?banner=no at the end of the url
[2012-01-18 21::30:02] » tictacaddict left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::30:02] nillacat: sry all, RL interrupted. I hope to chat with you at the next one.
[2012-01-18 21::30:05] FoglyOgly: colo: Tones are hierarchical, but repeating. This is kind of strange in itself, since it basically means that two different pitches are the "same" note, in a sense.
[2012-01-18 21::30:18] » nillacat left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::31:38] Mr_Donk: I bet those monks have great asses
[2012-01-18 21::31:52] » tictacaddict joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::34:03] FoglyOgly: Also interestingly, an octave isn't a set interval in terms of frequency.
[2012-01-18 21::34:05] Mr_Donk: on another note I feel like you need a preaty good understanding of theory to see how the endlessly rissing cannon is analougus to escher staircase
[2012-01-18 21::34:14] colo: this seems relevant :) a shepard tone: a continuously descending tone that never gets any lower :)
[2012-01-18 21::34:16] colo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfJa3IC1txI
[2012-01-18 21::34:21] Atterall: Hofstadter says that Bach's compositions are not formulaic but isn't this inversion and changes to patterns somewhat formulaic ?
[2012-01-18 21::35:05] FoglyOgly: colo: That's very relevant. The endlessly rising canon is pretty much like that but going up, and more complicated and slower. The whole key modulates up continuously.
[2012-01-18 21::35:24] » waitwhat joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::35:34] greqrg: Atterall:  The canons are formulaic, but the fugues have a looser structure.
[2012-01-18 21::35:37] FoglyOgly: Atterall: The canons are formulaic. (In fact they have to be, because most of them were written incompletely)
[2012-01-18 21::36:14] » GErBils left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::36:20] colo: <Atterall>I think what he means is that there isn't a very "mechanic" way to write a fugue, since the rules for a composition being a fugue are less strict than a canon
[2012-01-18 21::36:43] Mr_Donk: FoglyOgly: can you explain to me waht is being done to that tone to make it seem like its pitch is getting lower?
[2012-01-18 21::36:46] colo: whoops. I meant "Atterall: "
[2012-01-18 21::38:15] FoglyOgly: Mr_Donk: In the Shepard tone, one note is played at multiple octaves and then all the voices descend in unison, with higher and lower octaves added quietly at first and then increasing in volume gradually, I think.
[2012-01-18 21::38:20] greqrg: Also, it may be interesting to note about the "unevenness" of intervals between octaves:  instruments are tempered differently today, but during the days of classical music, the inteverals between notes changed gradually, so the intervals between the notes of C major would be different than D major, giving the composition a different feel.
[2012-01-18 21::38:23] Atterall: ah, that makes more sense.. he was drawing the distinction between the fague and canon
[2012-01-18 21::39:01] greqrg: It made much more sense to compose something in a specific key back then than it does today.
[2012-01-18 21::40:23] FoglyOgly: greqrg: Is that right? I've never heard that before.
[2012-01-18 21::40:30] colo: FoglyOgly: right ;) it's kind of like one of those tubes in front of barbershops that seem to be "descending" http://theger.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/barbershop.jpg
[2012-01-18 21::41:08] greqrg: FoglyOgly:  Yes, read further: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_temperament?banner=no#Well_temperament_and_Equal_temperament?banner=no
[2012-01-18 21::41:27] greqrg: I only have a casual understanding of it.
[2012-01-18 21::42:01] greqrg: "This phenomenon gives rise to infinite shades of key-colors, which are lost in the modern standard version" is the gist of what I was getting at.
[2012-01-18 21::42:15] colo: gotta go :P be back in about a half-hour :P
[2012-01-18 21::42:30] Mr_Donk: So the notes being plaed at the highest and lowest ocatves never change the "voices" in between do descend?
[2012-01-18 21::42:30] » colo left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::43:48] factotvm: Here one of the Canons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A41CITk85jk
[2012-01-18 21::44:59] factotvm: And the Crab Cannon (nice illustration, too): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36ykl2tJwZM
[2012-01-18 21::45:08] factotvm: *Canon.
[2012-01-18 21::45:14] factotvm: Ahem, my ignorance is apparent :)
[2012-01-18 21::45:35] Boriss: very cute :)
[2012-01-18 21::45:49] Boriss: and it illustrates the point well
[2012-01-18 21::46:05] greqrg: Mr_Donk:  Here's a visual representation of the Shepard Tone from the wiki article: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Shepard_tone.jpg
[2012-01-18 21::46:32] » commanda left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::46:37] greqrg: You see as the top voicing ends, it gets picked up from where it started by the voice beneath it
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[2012-01-18 21::47:34] Mr_Donk: greqrg yeah I can kind of hear it now.
[2012-01-18 21::47:37] greqrg: Nothing ever changes as a whole (the entire interval), but at a lower level (note by note) nothing really changes.
[2012-01-18 21::47:45] greqrg: whoops--
[2012-01-18 21::48:03] greqrg: I meant note by note everything is constantly changing
[2012-01-18 21::48:13] FoglyOgly: greqrg: So were the different temperaments just due to limitations of the instruments?
[2012-01-18 21::48:14] waitwhat: hey is someone recording this
[2012-01-18 21::48:19] waitwhat: er..
[2012-01-18 21::48:24] waitwhat: whats the word
[2012-01-18 21::48:27] FoglyOgly: waitwhat: I'm logging the discussion, yes.
[2012-01-18 21::48:34] waitwhat: ok cool...hi mom...
[2012-01-18 21::48:44] Mr_Donk: go to bed son
[2012-01-18 21::48:51] waitwhat: =o
[2012-01-18 21::49:15] Mr_Donk: I'll come up to tuck you in ; *
[2012-01-18 21::49:23] FoglyOgly: applauds Mr_Donk for his(her?) use of nontraditional gender roles.
[2012-01-18 21::50:38] » Michael joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::50:46] » Graeme joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::50:47] » Michael is now known as MichaelsBurns.
[2012-01-18 21::50:55] Graeme: Hello
[2012-01-18 21::51:06] FoglyOgly: Hi there.
[2012-01-18 21::51:15] Graeme: Are we still discussing GEB?
[2012-01-18 21::51:16] greqrg: FoglyOgly:  I'm not fully sure, at this point I would just be regurgitating wikipedia--but from my understanding you are correct.  It was a "flaw"  in early instruments, and since then instruments have "evolved" to compensate for this.
[2012-01-18 21::51:31] Graeme: aha
[2012-01-18 21::51:34] Graeme: we are
[2012-01-18 21::51:54] FoglyOgly: greqrg: So people would compose in certain keys to suit certain instruments.
[2012-01-18 21::52:09] Graeme: talking about the old tuning system?
[2012-01-18 21::52:39] BurnoutPriest: Ah, I understand
[2012-01-18 21::53:05] Graeme: certain keys would be dissonant on a piano would they not
[2012-01-18 21::53:26] Graeme: in equal temperment
[2012-01-18 21::53:32] greqrg: Oh yes, absolutely.  But each key would even have it's own "feel" to it.  Today you can play C minor or D minor, and they are the same, unless you play them relative to each other.  Back then there would actually be a tiny difference in the range between note to note.
[2012-01-18 21::53:54] greqrg: (that was in reply to FoglyOgly)
[2012-01-18 21::55:13] » koolkalang left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::55:45] Graeme: they still do have different feels due to the frequency resonating at the tonic, but they wouldn't have different intervallic feels
[2012-01-18 21::56:02] » commanda joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 21::56:05] Graeme: i modern temperment
[2012-01-18 21::56:08] Graeme: in*
[2012-01-18 21::56:40] BurnoutPriest: Anyone have a suggestion for a more comprehensive music theory tutorial site than the one posted on the subreddit?
[2012-01-18 21::57:26] greqrg: Right, the intervals are equal.  And since pitch changes logarithmically with frequency, you can see why the intervals between the frets of a guitar become smaller as the pitch rises.
[2012-01-18 21::57:58] Graeme: Burnout - you can try this site http://www.jacmuse.com/Default.htm
[2012-01-18 21::58:10] greqrg: Or rather, pitch is *perceived* logarithmically with frequency.
[2012-01-18 21::58:51] Graeme: did anybody listen to the continuously rising canon of bach?
[2012-01-18 21::59:14] Strafe: So if i wanted to get Musical Offering from iTunes, which recording is recommended?
[2012-01-18 21::59:15] FoglyOgly: Because the value in Hz of, say, a half-step, approaches zero as the pitch increases.
[2012-01-18 21::59:29] BurnoutPriest: Thanks Graeme
[2012-01-18 22::00:43] Graeme: gotta shrink your fingers to play a 62fret guitar
[2012-01-18 22::02:47] Graeme: so was it early harpsichord that could only play in one one intensity of note until the piano-forte came along?
[2012-01-18 22::04:12] » commanda left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 22::05:23] Mr_Donk:  bye peeps
[2012-01-18 22::05:30] » kateyphi left the chat room.
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[2012-01-18 22::06:59] deadling: graeme: harpsichord strings are plucked, instead of hammered... it's hard to pluck something louder or quieter
[2012-01-18 22::08:24] Graeme: ah i see, and piano-fortes are hammered? were normal pianos are at the time aswell?
[2012-01-18 22::08:51] greqrg: I was under the impression that the piano-forte *is* the modern piano.
[2012-01-18 22::09:01] kateyphi: same
[2012-01-18 22::09:11] greqrg: It's obviously been improved, but it's the same instrument.
[2012-01-18 22::09:27] Graeme: they have a different body shape and less keys
[2012-01-18 22::09:41] deadling: Wikipedia says: The word piano is a shortened form of pianoforte
[2012-01-18 22::09:42] » acadavid joined the chat room.
[2012-01-18 22::10:21] Graeme: so the piano is derived from the harpsichord? my world is upside down
[2012-01-18 22::10:28] deadling: here's a pretty cool harpsichord 101: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71x4MSlpGUk
[2012-01-18 22::10:43] deadling: you can tell the guy is a middleschool music teacher or something
[2012-01-18 22::11:34] » Flowersofevil left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 22::11:57] greqrg: To bring my tangent back to our central discussion, I'll share this fact that I just read on wikipedia: "J. S. Bach wrote The Well-Tempered Clavier to demonstrate the musical possibilities of well temperament, where in some keys the consonances are even more degraded than in equal temperament."
[2012-01-18 22::12:45] greqrg: The Well Tempered Clavier is mentioned often throughout GEB.
[2012-01-18 22::16:19] FoglyOgly: greqrg: Were the piano-fortes that Bach played in Prussia well-tempered or equal-tempered?
[2012-01-18 22::18:10] FoglyOgly: Also, are there any modern recordings of these pieces that recreate the key-color faithfully?
[2012-01-18 22::18:59] » acadavid left the chat room.
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[2012-01-18 22::22:38] greqrg: I'm really starting to step out of my expertise here, but I would guess they were equal-tempered.  Equal-temperment gained a lot of popularity during the second of the 18th century, and became standard during the early 19th century.
[2012-01-18 22::23:41] greqrg: Carl Philipp Emmanuel Bach composed with equal-temperment often, which I believe is Bach's son mentioned in GEB?
[2012-01-18 22::23:55] Graeme: try searching YouTube, I'm sure you can find some recordings using equal temperment
[2012-01-18 22::26:43] FoglyOgly: greqrg: I believe so.
[2012-01-18 22::27:38] FoglyOgly: Pianos are usually close to equal-tempered these days. Wikipedia says it's difficult to know what temperament a given composer used for a given composition.
[2012-01-18 22::28:01] greqrg: Anyways, I have work in the morning and--as insteresting as this discussion is--I must leave to get some sleep.  I'll definitely be reading the logs in the morning.  Happy reading!
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[2012-01-18 22::29:17] Graeme: it would be interesting to hear some bach compositions in the original temperment
[2012-01-18 22::30:22] deadling: I'd bet money I wouldn't notice the difference... not even a little
[2012-01-18 22::30:46] FoglyOgly: I'd be willing to bet The Musical Offering was composed with well-temperament.
[2012-01-18 22::31:01] » kateyphi left the chat room.
[2012-01-18 22::31:20] Graeme: you should look up some quarter tone music...that is really quite bizarre
[2012-01-18 22::31:33] Graeme: they add a note between every note on a keyboard
[2012-01-18 22::33:04] deadling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxrfoar3HfQ that is bizarre
[2012-01-18 22::33:21] deadling: it sounds like what they have playing during nightmares in cartoons
[2012-01-18 22::33:23] FoglyOgly: http://pianopedia.ptg.org/index.php?title=The_Bach_Temperament%3F
[2012-01-18 22::36:27] FoglyOgly: So as you can see, there's a considerable amount of debate as to what temperament Bach used.
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[2012-01-18 22::44:08] FoglyOgly: Well, seems the discussion has died. I'm going to get off here, and I'll see you guys again on Friday.
[2012-01-18 22::44:25] » You left the room.