A conversation about transgender culture

fudge 13:59:34
Yeah, my point was that "being honest" is difficult when there's no real framework for most people to discuss or understand these issues.
euphony_ 13:59:47
probably why so many trans people go with other trans people, similar circumstances
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Forest` 14:00:23
the trans woman in Euphony's story could have been like the one in mine: in denial, hoping her feelings were anything but trans because that's a pretty extreme thing to consider might be what's making you feel the way you feel
so she may not have deliberately deceived her husband
fudge 14:00:53
How can it be deception at all when they themselves don't know?
Forest` 14:02:28
that's what i'm saying, not a *complete* deception, but one would like to think the couple discusses enough about their personal thoughts and feelings and problems that it wouldn't come as a complete surprise
BUT so many couples go into relationships just *hoping* it will work and they and/or their spouse will change
oh hendrin left
innit 14:03:55
I have mixed feelings about transgenderism.
There's a reasonable amount of emotional states and anti-science denial in the community that persistently irks me.
fudge 14:04:17
ya ok
euphony_ 14:04:17
[17:03] <+innit> I have mixed feelings about transgenderism. <-- no one gives a shit
innit 14:04:20
certain emotional state*
euphony_ 14:04:29
cis people need to learn when to go fuck off
anyway, ttyl
innit 14:04:36
euphony_: That's an unhealthy emotional state.
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innit 14:04:41
Might you be transgender?
Imagine being in a mental state where somebody voices their opinion and you just instantly lash out.
Forest` 14:05:11
innit if you are going to trans bash in here you'll have to go
fudge 14:05:12
It's been done before
So there's that
xsnlx 14:05:20
cis-plaining transgender issues
fudge 14:05:27
Not like anything new is being said. It's not enlightening anybody.
innit 14:05:30
Forest`: In what way does that follow from anything I've said.
It does seem like evidence of what I said, though.
I have mixed feelings about transgenderism.
There's a reasonable amount of emotional states and anti-science denial in the community that persistently irks me.
Forest` 14:06:07
a) the word "transgenderism" is a word only used by anti-trans people
innit 14:06:34
Do you have a citation for that?
fudge 14:06:50
A lil' shapiro
innit 14:06:52
I've never heard that before.
xsnlx 14:06:56
does that mean that feminism is only used by anti-feminist people?
innit 14:07:13
This is a highly toxic conversation.
It's a perfect followup to my claim.
"I don't like some things about group X."
These are the responses I've gotten in 4 minutes:
"no one gives a shit"
"people not in group X need to learn when to go fuck off"
fudge 14:08:29
oh here comes the victimhood
innit 14:08:36
"if you're going to bash group X you'll have to go"
"non-group X explaining group X issues"
Forest` 14:09:07
innit is graces us with a demonstration of "sealioning"
fudge 14:09:18
You're saying shit to get a response and not elaborating or giving specifics.
Just "I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A GROUP OF PEOPLE"
Forest` 14:09:24
graces=gracing
innit 14:09:25
"your usage of the term for group X is anti- group X"
fudge 14:09:31
*looks around waiting for a reaction*
xsnlx 14:09:32
Transgenderism is a somewhat dated word meaning "being transgender," which has been misappropriated by transphobic pundits
innit 14:09:39
"here comes the victimhood"
xsnlx 14:09:48
per Urban Dictionary
innit 14:09:52
Forest`: You provided no citation for your claim.
Claim rejected, then.
If you can provide future evidence the term "transgenderism" is "only used by anti-trans people", I will consider modifying my speech.
fudge: I am expressing part of my feelings on a topic.
I am a highly liberal/leftist person who has some problems with transgender people.
Forest` 14:10:57
xsnlx exactly. It was used very briefly by some who counselted trans people 20 years or so ago, but trans people today consider it rude and it is always a red flag that the person using it is a transphobe
innit 14:10:58
Because of the mental states I encounter, coupled with a lot of anti-scientific attitudes.
fudge 14:11:04
As you've stated several times... without any clarification.
innit 14:11:07
My affinity for science is more important to me than anything else.
fudge 14:11:07
Yeah that doesn't say much
You're being super vague
Nobody else cares about your affinity for science though
innit 14:11:37
fudge: I think your response for immediate evidence is criticizable.
Forest` 14:11:39
innit ok, tell us about these "anti-scientific" attitudes?
innit 14:11:58
Forest`: Do you recant your above claim?
fudge 14:12:11
This is super pedantic
innit 14:12:15
I need you to specifically address that before I'll move on with you.
fudge, imagine I said the following:
fudge 14:12:34
🎶 Fuck this shit I'm out. 🎶
14:12:51
* innit is puzzled by the emotional intensity
"I dislike some things about this new movie you people are talking about."
Forest` 14:13:19
innit when a perso's entire being is been invalidated it tends to be a little irritating
innit 14:13:26
Imagine if somebody said "Yeah, that doesn't say much. You're being super vague."
Forest`: Did that occur in this conversation?
Or are you speaking generally?
I am highly leftist.
xsnlx 14:14:04
the "ism" is attempting to paint transgender people as simply having a belief or stance instead of a factual condition or situation
fudge 14:14:06
lol ok
Forest` 14:14:15
only this: <+innit> I have mixed feelings about transgenderism.
<+innit> There's a reasonable amount of emotional states and anti-science denial in the community that persistently irks me.
innit 14:14:25
I said those things.
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fudge 14:14:52
It's kind of amusing that someone is invoking *feelings* and then talking about "emotional states" of their object of criticism
innit 14:14:58
xsnlx: I was using "transgenderism" to point to the entire social phenomenon -- the people who experience transgenderism and all of the culture responding to that.
fudge: I know you're a smart person. I'd like to talk to you if you can slow down some.
fudge 14:15:19
Too Hegelian for me
Forest` 14:15:22
innit ok, i'll believe this one time you used the word innocently. Now you know - it is not nice
fudge 14:15:23
I'm out
xsnlx 14:15:30
innit, yes, again, implying it's not real
innit 14:15:37
Forest`: You haven't given me any evidence it isn't nice.
xsnlx 14:15:47
would you refer to left-handedism?
innit 14:15:55
fudge: I'm going to take a break from your posts for awhile since you don't seem ready to have a discussion with me.
xsnlx: I disagree that my definition of transgenderism implies anything is not real.
How do you get that?
The act of being transgender, from what I can tell, doesn't seem to lead to emotional states and or anti-science attitudes.
pela 14:16:50
[ ( x )( x ) Nippler ]
Forest` 14:16:53
accusing transgender people of being anti-science, the the opposite is true
innit 14:17:01
But, in the broader culture surrounding the personal, transgender experience, it is associated.
I want a word to differentiate that social context from the personal experience.
Forest` 14:17:28
being transgender isn't an "act", it is a state of being
innit 14:17:30
Forest`: You still won't give me evidence.
I don't understand.
I'm a genuinely curious person and will modify my beliefs upon receiving good evidence.
But you won't give me evidence.
I have no reason to think transgenderism should be offensive, but you claim it is.
Forest` 14:18:22
well, you aren't here for me to punch you so...
* Forest` shrugs
innit 14:18:28
xsnlx: It seems far less appropriate to use a word like left-handedism than transgenderism.
I don't understand why you're using violent allusions in your posts.
I have been patient enough with you.
* innit disengages from Forest` at this time
xsnlx: Why do I think left-handedism seems less appropriate than transgenderism? Because of the social context.
Human identity has typically not been too meaningfully related to handedness (though I think sometimes it has), and so there isn't a broader social meaning of this aspect of state.
You just have left-handedness or right-handedness and that's it.
But, gender has typically been an essential component of identity, and so there's a lot of reaction and context based upon one's gender.
And since gender has mostly been seen as an essential, unchangeable quality, a group of humans who have modified or changed their gender is a phenomenon of note.
And that broader context is what I am calling transgenderism.
I have been presented no evidence this is inappropriate.
I find the entire conversation so far to be violative of everything I know about human psychology that's conducive for good exchange, as well as the foundations of English.
xsnlx 14:22:29
that's two distinct sources for the term being outdated
innit 14:22:32
You already proved this, xsnlx.
Can you repeat the sources? I haven't seen them.
pela 14:23:19
[ Sealioning - Wikipedia ]
innit 14:23:41
I don't know who posted that Wikipedia link.
xsnlx 14:23:48
innit, you haven't provided any evidence of your feelings...I don't believe you have feelings
innit 14:24:00
But they're trying to make fun of asking for evidence.
xsnlx: I don't understand.
You just said there were two sources. I haven't seen those sources. I am interested in seeing those sources.
You won't help me see those sources.
And then you ask me about my feelings.
Joel 14:24:30
Forest` would "transgender identity" be better than "transgenderism"?
xsnlx 14:24:42
Ubran Dictionary and Forest's LGBTQ link
innit 14:25:05
I put Forest` on ignore for awhile after he used "punch" in his post about me after attacking me for many posts.
Can you repeat it?
Joel 14:25:25
hmm thanks
xsnlx 14:25:27
https://docs.asee.org/public/LGBTQ/Transgender_Vocab_Handout.pdf
innit 14:25:30
Thank you.
I am looking at it.
I don't like how you handled 'my feelings'.
Feelings are valid.
They initiate conversations and dialogues.
xsnlx 14:26:21
you didn't provide any evidence of your feelings
innit 14:26:22
Then, we respond to those emotions with questions, evidence, etc.
You don't provide evidence for feelings.
You provide evidence for things the feelings are about.
Feelings are a subjective experience and are valid in that sense.
xsnlx 14:26:59
oh, so your feelings are irrelevant, yes?
innit 14:27:06
I already addressed that.
With a clinician's construct.
I believe you're being intentionally difficult on this topic.
Emotions are valid.
In what way are emotions valid?
Joel 14:27:45
innit could you explain what the "anti-science" thing is about?
xsnlx 14:27:49
innit, are transgender peoples' emotions valid?
innit 14:27:51
They represent our current state from which we're having experiences and they represent a summarization of our previous experiences.
xsnlx: I have already addressed that
"Emotions are valid."
Joel, yes.
So, emotions are where we begin a dialogue from.
If a person is in a mental state and you deny that mental state, asking for evidence, that has been shown to be non-effective.
But, emotions aren't the determiner of all reality, just our current state.
And our emotions can misperceive.
xsnlx 14:29:03
and emotions are extremely malleable
innit 14:29:10
So, when emotions are about an outside experience, we can ask a person why they feel the way they do and show them that there are may be other ways to feel.
If you are full of hatred at group X because a friend was raped by somebody in group X, that is real and valid.
But, obviously, not everybody in group X is responsible for that rape.
xsnlx 14:29:36
yes, bigoted
innit 14:29:55
And so a good dialogue will accept that initial state, as it's reacting to reality, and then improve it.
That's the way in which emotions should be integrated into dialogue, and not by asking for evidence of the emotions.
Ask for evidence about the things my emotions reference.
I've already done some of that, and Joel has asked for more.
Joel 14:30:46
well i haven't seen you elaborate on what is "anti-science" among trans people
innit 14:31:12
Joel, I am pausing and reflecting -- just one moment.
xsnlx 14:31:17
bigotry is substituting ignorant, emotional reactions for reason
innit 14:31:49
Ending conversations with our emotions often means the conversation has been ineffective, or our emotions were too strong to dissolve/improve in one conversation.
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innit 14:32:14
Joel, the most important thing to me are norms about truth-telling, as opposed to norms about social behavior.
I don't care about people eat, dress, love, or fuck, but I do care how they approach truth.
So, I'm highly sensitive on that topic.
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innit 14:33:05
In my personal experience, I have seen good-intentioned people who are trying to truthfully explore aspects of the transgender culture as being misrepresented.
I can give you an example from a recent experience.
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innit 14:33:51
On the channel Rational Rules: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqZMgLgGlYAWvSU8lZ9xiVg, the host did a video on transgender athletes.