JGR interview

English translation for the video in URL : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwzVkLS5VEI&ab_channel=LibertyTamil

Anchor (A)
Jagath Gaspar Raj (JGR)

comments within square brackets are editorial.

A: Welcome Liberty Tamil viewers. In today's interview,
we have with us the Convenor of Tamil Maiyyam and Political Analyist Jagath Gaspar Raj.

A: Hello.
JGA: Hello, Hello.
A: Rahul Gandhi has given an important statement, I see it as something that should become a topic of discussion at the national level. He has said that RSS agents in Congress should be weeded out/removed. What is your view on this statement by Rahul Gandhi? Such an allegation has been previously made by many, including you - that Congress and BJP are one and the same when it comes to many issues (such as the Ram Temple issue, Reservation, etc.); that Congress is soft Hindutva while BJP is hard Hindutva. Has Rahul Gandhi realized this just now?

JGA: Just as you said, within Congress, there has always been a very powerful 'RSS-force' or RSS-thought process. People with a  'Sanatana' thought process [Sanatana is dog whistle for Hindu] are dominant within Congress. Even Mahatma Gandhi, whom you all adore, was a 'Sanatani'. Many of his activities, be it the Poona Pact, be it making religion a Centre list subject, in many many issues, he was a 'Sanatani'. Let me tell you something more: today Pakistan says India was partitioned. Gandhi was a cunning person - he was a Gujarati Baniya, not a Brahmin. His calculation was correct. He knew that if Pakistan and Bangladesh were to be with India there was no way a future BJP-like government (pro-Hindu government) would be possible. In fact, Gandhi was in favour of (a separate) Pakistan and hence the partition. Gandhi was soft-RSS; he knew that with Pakistan and Bangladesh (and their Muslim majority population) a future soft-RSS government in India will not be likely.

At that time, the foreign-educated Congress leaders, leaders who were barristers/lawyers, were of the view that the post-partition government of India should be a liberal, progressive, modern democratic government.  Nevertheless, sections of the Congress inner circle has always had a soft-RSS standpoint. You could see this in play during the opening up of the Babri Masjid, their bunglings regarding the Mandal Commission report, etc. Take NEET now, was it brought by the BJP? No, NEET was introduced by Congress.

A: Even today, the only opposing voices against such issues is from Tamil Nadu; Congress and leaders like Mamata don't oppose the BJP's policies in NEET or the New Education Policy, as vehemently as Tamil Nadu.

JGR: Now Rahul Gandhi is better able to understand the machinations of BJP. We are all human beings, there is always genuine doubt in one's mind regarding issues unless you are a hard-headed RSS person, hard-headed ISIS idealogue, etc. Every day you think, even if you are a hardcore Periarist, you think, oh, they should not have done this. I am a Christian, even I sometimes think that the Church should not have taken some stand on an issue, that it is not right. I say that, even though I am of the Church. I am able to honestly scrutinize it. This is intellectual honesty. So Rahul Gandhi will also think. He is 47 years of age. He is a seasoned man, a mature person. He will have an understanding of how dangerous an organisation is RSS. I say this usually, it (the RSS) puts up an elaborate front, but it is actually an organization that is against humanity itself, not just against the nation. It has expansionist ambitions...it is in league with Sinhalese majoritarianism, it has absorbed in the Buddhism of Myanmar and Thailand. It wants to dabble in geopolitics in this way. It even tries to coerce Facebook to remove everything related to the Tamil Eelam issue. Linguistic memories, ethno-nationalism...it tries to inject these into the future Empires. By future Empires, I do not mean BJP or Congress, DMK or ADMK. The future empires are going to be Google, etc. The RSS is scheming now to a part of this Empire.

A: The current BJP government is attacking these empires now (Google, Twitter, Facebook, etc.)

JGR:  Those attacking are not those Empires (Google etc.) The attacking party is what we call Renaissance. Today, the Church is irrelevant in the European landmass, honestly speaking. People attend them for namesake, merely as a cultural memory. Like festivals in our place.

Christianity has transformed itself into a progressive, modern vision for humanity. Who is behind this Renaissance? They are the ones who rebelled against the erstwhile Church hegemony. They are the same forces responsible for modern European democracy. If you ask me, whether American or European democracy is more promising for humanity, I certainly think it is European democracy. Because the forces behind European democracy are the ones that made human rights a fundamental right. They established the principle that sovereignity belongs to the individual and the people and not to the government or state. This was said before long back by our Tamil ancestors as well. Today is the era of state tyranny. The European landmass has contributed to this political thought process. What you have in Europe is the fruits of a Renaissance caused by a forward-thinking/progressive Christian thought. So, the attack on BJP/RSS is from this line of thought (the liberal, progressive Christianity of Europe). Take Amnesty International - Facebook did not pin down NSO, the Israeli firm involved in the Pegasus scandal. It was Amnesty that exposed this whole episode of illegal spying. Amnnesty International is an arm of Liberal Democracy. So you should not see it that way (as Google/Facebook attacking BJP/RSS).

Today, actually, in Covid issue, be it Washington Post, Le Monde or Guardian and other Western papers, the forces uniting against Modi today are Renaissance forces, the Liberal democratic progressive forces. It is difficult for people from here (India) to defeat Modi. But, liberal democratic global forces will defeat him! They will fix him, you wait and see. They (BJP and RSS) will call it a conspiracy by foreign forces against India. (To BJP and RSS): say the conspiracy is against you, not against India. It is a conspiracy against the havoc you made. How is it justified? (referring to Pegasus spying). Can I spy on your private life? Just because a person critcises the government, can I go into their bedroom? Can I take your photograph and tarnish you? The discussion has digressed. But, basically it is liberal democratic forces (who are against BJP/RSS and Modi).

A: You see Rahul Gandhi in that mould? (as an usherer in of liberal democracy)

JGR: Yes, I see him as a liberal democrat.

A: Nehru himself criticized RSS. During his time there were people like Sardar Vallabhai Patel, Lala Lajpat Rai. There were people who were in Hindu Mahasabha and RSS while being Congress members. The Congress permitted these double memberships. Even Narasimha Rao is seen by some as an RSS-sympathizer.

JGR: Pranab Mukherjee too.

A: Yes, Pranab Mukherjee as well. There are many such names, what I know are only a few. In that light, do you see a schism within the Congress as a Nehru-family Congress and a soft-RSS Congress? No one apart from the Gandhi family has spoken about eradicating the RSS strain within Congress.

JGR: Well, the 'Establishment' the power centre is always 'Sanatani' and upper caste. In fact, it is the RSS that feels that Modi and Amit Shah are not needed anymore. The RSS feels they (Modi and Shah) are past their expiry date. If they continue to be in power, there will be a bad name for India on the world stage. There are many ongoing conflicts: with China, with Pakistan. Taliban has also shown up now. Even Bangladesh, they have gone far ahead of us in terms of HDI. Therefore, these two people have become liabilities. The 'Santanic' forces needed the Congress (and the Nehru family) till the time they united the 640 princely states, and assuaged the multi-polar caste conflicts to some extent and set up the Indian state.

A: Was Nehru in favour of this?

JGR: Yes definitely. See, today, when it comes to national unity, the RSS and Congress are on the same page. How is this possible? 'Sanatanam' needs the Indian state. The Tamils don't need it (the Indian state). The Telugus don't need it. The Kannadigas don't need it.

A: Bengalis don't need it too.

JGR: Yes, they don't need it. But 'Sanatanam' needs a united India. Many, like the, Menons, Warrier, Namboodris, who are in close relation with RSS may need a united India too. Whereas, the Ezhavas, Pulayars and Paraiyars don't need it.

If Periyar were to be alive today, do  you think he would have been able to freely say what he once said then [secessionist ideas]? You are a Periyarist, you tell me. It is difficult. In Periyar's time, the Indian state was in a chaotic, lava-like state. Because of that Periyar could speak freely [secessionist talk]. However, today the (Indian) state is strong, like a fortress. The State is under the control of 'Sanatanam'.

A: Beyond 'Sanatanam', the need for a strong Central government is not just favoured by BJP or RSS. Even the Congress favours it.

JGR: Congress is 'Sanatanic' too.

A: It was, indeed. But do you think Rahul Gandhi is now stepping out of that mindset? In terms of removing subjects from the Centre list to the State [more federalism], etc. As a followup to his resolve of eradicating RSS (elements in Congress).

JGR: There is an existential crisis in the Congress, if Congress as a party will survive. He has an understanding that the Congress needs to make policy-based firm stands on certain issues, to ensure its survival. All these could be reasons for what he said.

As for RSS, why did RSS bring in Kejriwal (to public life)? It is the RSS that brought in Kejriwal. It is to weaken...I am telling you, according to the 'Sanatana' RSS, Congress has outlived its usefulness after setting up a united Indian state. Now, after 50 years (of independence), the RSS has achieved two things. First, it has 'Sanatanised' [Saffronized or brought into the Hindu-fold] communities that used to be firmly behind the Congress. Take the last West Bengal elections, a big share of BJP's votes came from Dalit, Tribal, and Adivasi communities. This has happened in a number of states. It is just co-option. If someone from a community is made a minister, the entire community is happy. Take L. Murugan. Since he has been made a minister there is this feeling that the entire Arundathiyar community's life has been transformed. This is a tactic of the BJP/RSS. Apart from this, the RSS/BJP tries to pervade the subculture of communities with the goal of inducting them into the larger 'Sanatan' or 'Vedic' fold. They want to bring communities within the Vedic agenda and this social engineering is complete. Secondly, by using Congress, they have strengthened the Indian state as well.

Now they ('Sanatan' forces) feel Congress is useless, so let us just takeover the state. We can take over the state and control it for long.

A: Do you think Rahul Gandhi's statement will strengthen Congress? We think BJP talks about Goshalas and Cow protection in Tamil Nadu. But, in states like Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, it is the Congress that is championing such issues. These are their electoral promises. Given this, how will Congress-men take up this progressive thought of Rahul Gandhi?

JGR: Rahul has not spoken about cow protection. He has only asked RSS-agents inside Congress to exit. In fact, in many situations, these RSS-agents within Congress confuse Rahul Gandhi. I have seen this many times. Long ago, I even tried to meet Rahul Gandhi in Delhi, regarding Tamil Eelam issue. Those who have met him, call Rahul Gandhi a nice person. But there is a circle around him that prevents anyone from meeting Rahul Gandhi. Even if someone meets him, this circle warns Rahul Gandhi to be careful.

A: During Gujarat election campaign, Rahul Gandhi removed his shirt and signed in a notebook [in a temple] that he is from this Gotra and a upper caste Brahmin. We also saw that in the recent West Bengal elections, Mamata Banerjee specifically asked to not mention her caste in some context. From this, one gets the feeling that even Rahul Gandhi is in the "Gujarat model". At the same time, he comes to Tamil Nadu for the election campaign and says he will present Modi with Periyar books.

From all this, are we to understand that he is juggling with two varying sets of thoughts?

JGR:  Definitely. Everyone undergoes changes. What I was at age 25 is different from what I am now at 57 years old. Many changes have occured. Ten years back, I wouldn't have spoken so sharply as today. I will second guess, that if I said something, everyone is a particular community will be worried. I was more carful then. But today, I am not since there is no other way. If an entire community supports RSS, then I have no other way but to oppose you. I am not responsible if you misunderstand me. I feel Rahul Gandhi has also undergone such a change.

A: Do you see his statement as something mature and bold?

JGR: Correct.

A: He has matured but he has also become brave. Has he concluded that this is how it should be? That this is the only way and he has moved from the Right Wing to the Left Wing?

JGR: Yes. Proper mid.

A: He is in the middle?

JGR: Proper mid.

A: Okay, okay. You discussed today's political situation, the happenings behind it. You also spoke richly about the framework underlying the politics and how to understand it all, for the benefit of our viewers. Thank you very much.

JGR: Thanks.

Fin.