<TheDuceCat> ^pingall
<CatBot> Wake up! ArrowBot, CatBot, chancez, decatf, Etnoggin, FRodrigues, Suner, tayne, thearrowflies, TheDuceCat, timg
<Etnoggin> hi
<decatf> hello
<Suner> oh
<Suner> hey
<TheDuceCat> i guess we have to continue with no miyako for now
<Suner> all right
<TheDuceCat> what were we planning for today?
<TheDuceCat> we wanted some code out
<Suner> yes, I think we were finalizing a basic design for backend <-> frontend
<FRodrigues> cool
<TheDuceCat> so we storing tiles in a 2d-array?
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<calzone21> Hi, sorry I am late. Had to stay longer than expected at work. Figured the meeting would be at the same time
<TheDuceCat> it's fine
<TheDuceCat> we didn't start yet
<TheDuceCat> so are we going to do a 2d array of tile structs?
<TheDuceCat> hello?
<Suner> sory, was afk for a bit
<decatf> that's how i would do it
<Suner> um, essentially I guess?
<decatf> unless there's a better way
<TheDuceCat> any alternatives?
<Suner> at the moment we're trying to do something simple
<Suner> well
<Suner> the backend isn't actually supposed to return a 2d array of tiles
<Suner> it's supposed to just return a blob of data that the frontend can render
<Suner> (this is the idea suggested by miyako)
<TheDuceCat> how will this blob be kept though
<Suner> this allows the backend to manipulate tiles in the future, without the frontend knowing about it
<Suner> well, I'm guessing just an opaque pointer or so
<Suner> I'm not well versed in what kind of data formats are easily renderable
<TheDuceCat> i've rendered 2d arrays of tiles easily
<Suner> but I'm assuming that the backend will return the map in some form of easily renderable format
<TheDuceCat> not sure what he means by blob of data
<Suner> giant image
<Suner> maybe
<TheDuceCat> i thought the front end would render them individually
<TheDuceCat> why store the data in an image?
<TheDuceCat> i would say
<TheDuceCat> better to store the data as the position and sprite type
<TheDuceCat> and the frontend will draw on the fly
<Suner> well the problem with the frontend rendering the tiles individually is that it makes it impossible for the backend to manipulate the tile images
<TheDuceCat> i thought the sprites would be static
<Suner> for now, but the goal is to do some manipulation on them in the future
<TheDuceCat> how would that work
<Suner> <miyako> one feature I'd like to do (open to voting by everyone of course) is to generate tile image data dynamically; an example would be to blend textures together at the seams so that you don't have obvious tiling
<TheDuceCat> yeah i guess but sounds like some advanced stuff
<Suner> the idea is that you don't want to come up with a base design that won't work in the future
<Suner> haha, and I'd appreciate the input of others here :)
<TheDuceCat> so the backend renders
<Suner> not really..it just provides the image data to render
<FRodrigues> interesting
<FRodrigues> maybe that's better than just giving a basic struct
<FRodrigues> that would give much more power to the backend
<FRodrigues> and if we change entirely the backend we can keep the front end
<FRodrigues> what do you think?
<TheDuceCat> maybe
<Suner> I think this was the general idea
<Suner> Well here's my personal opinion on this
<Suner> let's get started on the frontend, get a basic map rendered (colors), and then extend that into a backend
<Suner> how's this sound?
<TheDuceCat> sounds good
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<FRodrigues> yes
<TheDuceCat> thearrowflies
<calzone21> im down with that
<decatf> don't we need a backend first so the frontend has something to use?
<TheDuceCat> i guess we'll simulate it until then
<Suner> ^
<TheDuceCat> plus it's simple
<FRodrigues> just give images
<TheDuceCat> http://www.mapeditor.org/
<TheDuceCat> i like the gui on this
<ArrowBot> (1/0)[0] "Tiled Map Editor - Free Software" http://www.reddit.com/r/html5gamedev/comments/mlj2r/
<calzone21> yeah, that is a nice GUI. i was checking that site out the other day
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<FRodrigues> it's GTK
<TheDuceCat> the layout
<Suner> whaT?
<Suner> it's Qt
<TheDuceCat> it is qt
<TheDuceCat> but the layout matters
<Suner> okay listen
<Suner> and I just want to make my opinion known here
<Suner> but I think this project is kind of retarded
<FRodrigues> ok
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<FRodrigues> lol
<Suner> I just want to put that out there
<Etnoggin> why?
<Suner> because there are other OSS projects (case in point: Tiled), that do almost exactly the same thing
<TheDuceCat> yeah
<TheDuceCat> but hopefully we can bring more to the table with plugins
<Suner> and the fact that no one here even knows much about graphics anyway
<Etnoggin> fiar enough
<Etnoggin> fair*
<Suner> except maybe miyako, who is a no show tday
<TheDuceCat> even if we dont, hopefully it's a learning experience
<TheDuceCat> i hope we can get it done
<Suner> yeah, but I'm just saying
<Suner> why start a whole new project on a subject matter most of us aren't experienced with
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<Suner> when there's an OSS project available already?
<FRodrigues> to get experience?
<Etnoggin> that was my understanding.
<TheDuceCat> yeah
<FRodrigues> for fun?
<TheDuceCat> that too
<Suner> experience you'd get equally from simply contributing to the already existing project?
<TheDuceCat> just because there is one already doesn't mean we can't do one
<Suner> you're right
<TheDuceCat> choice is key for the end user anyay
<TheDuceCat> anyway
<Suner> the only reason I even bring this up is because: we don't have much interest in this project as it is
<FRodrigues> to enter the existing project is much harder
<Suner> ^false
<Suner> and I mean sure we have quite a few people here
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<Suner> but like I said earlier, no one here seems to have much experience on this topic
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<Suner> and there's nothing wrong with creating an alternative software
<TheDuceCat> i like to learn by doing
<Suner> but what does Tiled do wrong that can't simply being contributed to it?
<TheDuceCat> of course, it is good to have someone with experience
<TheDuceCat> but
<TheDuceCat> if all of us had experience
<TheDuceCat> we wouldn't be here
<FRodrigues> yep
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<Suner> really?
<Etnoggin> I have to go. My car needs to be moved.
<FRodrigues> ok
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<FRodrigues> what do you think we should do?
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<calzone21> should we pursue another idea? :S
<TheDuceCat> can't keep jumping ideas
<TheDuceCat> nothing will get done
<TheDuceCat> although
<Suner> it's not that I think we should be doing some else, only that I feel like it needs to be said that this project doesn't seem all that great to me
<TheDuceCat> nothing is done yet :)
<TheDuceCat> i'm looking forward to learning new things
<Suner> because right now, it just seems like we'll end up with a Tiled copy
<Suner> and if that's the case, might aswell just had contributed to Tiled instead of reinventing the wheel
<TheDuceCat> hopefully plugin support can create a worthy alternative
<Suner> sure...but I could just implement plugin support in Tiled in less time
<TheDuceCat> have any ideas that haven't been done before?
<Suner> depends...how difficult a project are people looking for?
<Suner> I'm aware that there are some people looking to learn who don't have much programming experience
<TheDuceCat> probably not incredibly difficult
<Suner> and I want to be clear, I'm perfectly fine with doing the map editor project. I'm just saying if we're going to do something, why not do something beneficial?
<Suner> and I encourage others here to voice their opinions
<TheDuceCat> i don't know any other options
<TheDuceCat> i suggested a game initially but we decided against it
<FRodrigues> i'm tired of making games for college : /
<TheDuceCat> you going for a game degree?
<Suner> I can't find the logs from the first meeting..
<FRodrigues> no
<TheDuceCat> http://pastebin.com/NJXGKyHw
<ArrowBot> Title: Meeting 1 - Pastebin.com (at pastebin.com)
<FRodrigues> i think my professors love games :P
<TheDuceCat> cs degree?
<FRodrigues> sort of
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<FRodrigues> informatics and computers engineer
<TheDuceCat> ah
<TheDuceCat> if you don't mind, what university are you at?
<FRodrigues> Instituto Superior Técnico :P
<FRodrigues> http://www.ist.utl.pt/en/
<FRodrigues> in portugal
<ArrowBot> Title: Instituto Superior Técnico - Engineering, Arquitecture, Science and Technology (at www.ist.utl.pt)
<TheDuceCat> oh
<TheDuceCat> thought you were at a us uni
<FRodrigues> In portugal we dont value much CS
<FRodrigues> no
<TheDuceCat> ok
<FRodrigues> I'm portuguese
<Suner> lol I think my uni has maybe like 3 CS majors
<Suner> total
<Suner> but anywho, does no one have anything to say?
<FRodrigues> my course have 6 majors I think :P
<FRodrigues> sincerely I like to make tiled map editor
<calzone21> I like the idea of script software embedded into office applications, i use ironspread at work but there is no support for mac os/linux or openoffice/libre but there is alternatives obviously so that may fall in the same boat
<calzone21> http://www.ironspread.com/
<ArrowBot> (1/0)[0] "Scripting Excel with Python" http://www.reddit.com/r/carthageo/comments/ut0q1/
<calzone21> i would still like to contribute to the tiled map editor, it would be a great learning experience
<TheDuceCat> that's pretty cool
<TheDuceCat> i didn't know ms office had plugins
<FRodrigues> we could do that for libreOffice
<Suner> calzone21: what are the alternatives
<TheDuceCat> If you are an extension developer, you can use several languages to develop LibreOffice
<TheDuceCat> extensions. Supported programming languages are Basic, Python, JavaScript and Java.
<calzone21> may have overestimated the alternatives, after a quick search, it seems not many minus Iron Python and Rhino Python but I am not sure if they actually embed into excel like IronSpread does
<calzone21> my bad
<Suner> iron python is imply running python on the CLR iirc
<Suner> nothing to do with excel?
<TheDuceCat> yeah but excel is written in c#
<TheDuceCat> so wouldnt you have to to embed it?
<Suner> er? excel isn't written in C#
<TheDuceCat> oh
<TheDuceCat> i thought it was
<calzone21> sorry,  I just remember IronPython kept popping up when I was searching for how to use scripts written in Python within Excel instead of VBA, basically macros
<TheDuceCat> alright so i don't know
<TheDuceCat> i just thought mso was written in c#
<calzone21> was it written in C++?
<Suner> probably
<TheDuceCat> yeah
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<TheDuceCat> not much libreoffice extension documentation
<TheDuceCat> you pretty much have to use openoffice's documentation
<Suner> well is this a project people are interested in?
<TheDuceCat> yeah but i'd rather do the tile mapper
<TheDuceCat> or both
<calzone21> yeah, I don't want to push something that isn't of interest to everybody
<calzone21> i'm content with either as well. Both sound great. challenging but great
<TheDuceCat> i wish they would put some decent documentation up
<TheDuceCat> ^die