bj broke?

[23:30] <@Hawkstar> also rayjay you should have me on as a guest star on the smogcast once berry juice becomes the topic
[23:30] <%Treecko> lol
[23:30] <%Treecko> aren't you like the only major anti-berry juice guy?
[23:30] <@RayJay> yes he is
[23:30] <@Hawkstar> yes I'm the only correct one
[23:31] <@RayJay> and for a dumb reason
[23:31] <@RayJay> because it forces you to use strategy
[23:31] <@RayJay> ;)
[23:31] <%Treecko> ;)
[23:31] <@Hawkstar> I have many reasons so idk which one you are talking about
[23:31] <%Treecko> I love berry juice
[23:31] <@Hawkstar> oh that one
[23:32] * Nails ([email protected]) has joined #littlecup
[23:32] * FreeFunBro is now known as Salt
[23:32] <@Hawkstar> eventually I'll get around to writing a big tl'dr post on my reasoning
[23:34] <%Treecko> plz no
[23:34] <@RayJay> lol
[23:35] <QuoteCS> I can't wait to hear his reasons.
[23:35] * +fatty ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[23:35] <QuoteCS> I've been wanting to see more legitimate reason for wanting berry juice gone as a whole.
[23:36] <%Treecko> I can if it comes in a tl;dr format
[23:36] <%Treecko> otherwise I'd be all for it
[23:37] <@RayJay> you get rid of berry juice
[23:37] <@RayJay> you get bw 2 meta all over again
[23:37] <@RayJay> there isnt a doubt in my mind
[23:37] <+Nozzle> pls dont let it go
[23:37] <+Nozzle> its nice :(
[23:37] <+Nozzle> sturdy smashers arent too big of a problem imo
[23:37] <+Nozzle> only for new people maybe
[23:39] <@Hawkstar> bw2 meta was caused by there being three big threats that were too good not to have on any particular team
[23:39] <@Hawkstar> also weather
[23:40] <+Nozzle> wait what three big threats
[23:40] <+Nozzle> oh we talking lc
[23:40] <+Nozzle> nvm
[23:40] <@Hawkstar> the three Ms
[23:40] <Caledrith> 3m
[23:40] <+Nozzle> yea i got taht
[23:40] <%Treecko> [01:37] <@RayJay> you get rid of berry juice
[23:40] <%Treecko> [01:37] <@RayJay> you get bw 2 meta all over again
[23:40] <%Treecko> yeah I agree
[23:40] <QuoteCS> I scrubed out earlier in a mini-tour because Shakeitup randomly made a team with 4 Sturdy juice pokes and it fucked me up, lol
[23:40] <+Nozzle> lol
[23:40] <@RayJay> thats not true hawk
[23:40] <+Nozzle> croagunk
[23:40] <+Nozzle> counters all
[23:40] <+Nozzle> js
[23:41] <+Nozzle> cept maybe smash dwebble
[23:41] <+Nozzle> but that one has more counters
[23:41] <QuoteCS> Except for all the pokes that crap on him
[23:41] <QuoteCS> :]
[23:41] <%Treecko> yeah you could say that about any mon though
[23:41] <@Hawkstar> the only possible way we could have BW2 meta in xy lc was if we banned all xy mons and set the banlist to what it was in bw2
[23:41] <%Treecko> that's about the dumbest argument I've ever heard lol
[23:41] <@Hawkstar> and reverted the weather nerf
[23:41] <%Treecko> that's
[23:41] <%Treecko> not what he meant
[23:41] <%Treecko> obviously it won't be identical to BW LC
[23:41] <@Hawkstar> well what does he mean
[23:42] <@Hawkstar> stagnant and unenjoyble?
[23:42] <%Treecko> but it will resemble it
[23:42] <@RayJay> the nature of bw2 is reactionary rather than proactive
[23:42] <+Nozzle> he means
[23:42] <%Treecko> that too
[23:42] <+Nozzle> that it will be
[23:42] <@RayJay> the tendency is to place emphasis on teambuilding and not talented battling
[23:42] <+Nozzle> every team will be consisting of the same 15 mons
[23:42] <@Hawkstar> false
[23:42] <@RayJay> stop
[23:42] <+Nozzle> now there are actually a good 30/40 mons to choose from
[23:42] <@RayJay> listen to me
[23:42] <@RayJay> the problem with bw2 in your words is that there are a few objectively best mons
[23:42] <@RayJay> even though something like mienfoo isnt actually a stand out in stats
[23:43] <@RayJay> this tells us the emphasis is on consistent teambuilding over consistent battling
[23:43] <@RayJay> naturally, the tier will approach a "standard" team in this meta that simply does the job the best
[23:43] <@RayJay> berry juice eliminates this problem for a few reasons
[23:43] <@RayJay> 1.) it allows some Pokemon to set up past the point where they can break these defensive cores safely
[23:44] <@RayJay> 2.) it provides Pokemon without reliable recovery but still decent bulky and offenses a reason to be used
[23:44] * +Artemisa ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 183 seconds)
[23:44] <@RayJay> (over eviolite mons that is)
[23:44] <@RayJay> so if you remove berry juice
[23:44] <Jillian> eviolite city son
[23:45] <@RayJay> i believe the metagame would begin to converge just as it did in bw2
[23:45] <Jillian> (not really though)
[23:45] <QuoteCS> I don't want that :(
[23:45] <@RayJay> towards a select few Pokemon
[23:45] <Jillian> i like having berry juice
[23:45] <@RayJay> that simply fill a teamslot the best
[23:45] <@Hawkstar> thing is, that will happen in the berry juice metagame too
[23:45] <@RayJay> i disagree
[23:45] <QuoteCS> Not really
[23:45] <@RayJay> berry juice adds enough diversity
[23:45] <@RayJay> that convergence is much less of an issue
[23:45] <@Hawkstar> no it doesn't
[23:45] <@Hawkstar> well
[23:45] <@RayJay> yes it does
[23:45] <@Hawkstar> it might, but we can't prove that
[23:45] <@RayJay> any time you add more viable pokemon
[23:45] <@Hawkstar> without
[23:45] <@RayJay> convergence becomes less of an issue
[23:46] <QuoteCS> There's enough diversity in terms of items, at least right now
[23:46] <Jillian> im kinda madd i have to oneshot swirlix
[23:46] <@RayJay> because it is more likely things will have a counter
[23:46] <@RayJay> in a greater pool of pokemon
[23:46] <Jillian> that's really my only complaint
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> so you're telling me, that the only difference between the stale bw metagames and the fresh hip xy metagame is berry juice?
[23:46] <@RayJay> so yes, you can prove that
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> and not any of the new moves?
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> or new pokemon?
[23:46] <@RayJay> no im saying thats a key difference
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> or unbanned old oens
[23:46] <@RayJay> if not the biggest difference
[23:46] <@RayJay> if you ban berry juice
[23:46] <%Treecko> it does make an enormous difference
[23:46] <@RayJay> there are a few things that will be banned after it
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> so you're telling me, that the only difference between the stale bw metagames and the fresh hip xy metagame is berry juice?
[23:46] <@RayJay> so yes, you can prove that
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> and not any of the new moves?
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> or new pokemon?
[23:46] <@RayJay> no im saying thats a key difference
[23:46] <@Hawkstar> or unbanned old oens
[23:46] <@RayJay> if not the biggest difference
[23:46] <@RayJay> if you ban berry juice
[23:46] <%Treecko> it does make an enormous difference
[23:46] <@RayJay> there are a few things that will be banned after it
[23:46] <@RayJay> like no questions asked
[23:46] <Caledrith> Jillian, thast the real issue
[23:46] <Salt> you don't really know if it will turn out that way rayjay
[23:47] <QuoteCS> I wish XY gave us more to work with for pokes
[23:47] <Salt> it's just a hunch
[23:47] <QuoteCS> Oh well
[23:47] <@RayJay> if you get rid of berry juice
[23:47] <%Treecko> that's
[23:47] <%Treecko> all any ban is
[23:47] <%Treecko> really
[23:47] <&elevator_music> petition gamefreak to give bergmite fighting/ghost moves
[23:47] <@RayJay> all counters that can repeatedly switch in because of ebrry juice
[23:47] <@RayJay> now greatly lose that ability
[23:47] <Caledrith> lol em
[23:47] * +Nozzle ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[23:47] <@RayJay> so you lose a number of viable counters
[23:47] <&elevator_music> needs stuff to hit pawnerd/misdreavus with :<
[23:47] <&elevator_music> also it needs ice shard jeez
[23:48] <@RayJay> right now you have berry juice chinchou as a common set
[23:48] <@Hawkstar> and what if that mon relied on berry juice to be effective?
[23:48] <&elevator_music> and not shit ice stab would be nice too
[23:48] <@RayJay> but you remove berry juice
[23:48] <Jillian> !learn bergimite, earthquake
[23:48] <TIBot> "bergimite" is not a valid Pokemon.
[23:48] <@RayJay> and you start to see murkrow becoming more dominant
[23:48] <Jillian> !learn bergmite, earthquake
[23:48] <TIBot> Bergmite can't learn Earthquake.
[23:48] <@Hawkstar> evio restalk chou still works
[23:48] <&elevator_music> only avalugg gets eq (and crunch) :/
[23:48] <Jillian> :(((
[23:48] <@Hawkstar> It's a great set for this meta
[23:48] <@Hawkstar> i use it all the time
[23:48] <Jillian> damnit all
[23:48] <@RayJay> so you see a rise in restalk
[23:48] <&elevator_music> restalk is much better this gen as a whole
[23:48] <@RayJay> this means teams will either a.) converge into murkrow + restalk counter
[23:49] <@RayJay> b.) all need this chinchou set to counter murkrow
[23:49] <@RayJay> whereas now we have options
[23:49] <@RayJay> thats an example of how berry juice adds diversity
[23:49] <@RayJay> notice chinchou doesnt have to even rely on berry juice
[23:49] * Salt squints
[23:49] <@RayJay> it can run other sets
[23:49] <%Heysup> <@RayJay> all counters that can repeatedly switch in because of ebrry juice
[23:49] <%Heysup> <@RayJay> now greatly lose that ability
[23:50] <%Heysup> that's wrong
[23:50] <%Heysup> it will just shift to bulkier eviolite mons
[23:50] <%Heysup> with recovery
[23:50] <%Treecko> no it's not
[23:50] <%Treecko> exactly
[23:50] <%Treecko> and all counters that rely on berry juice to do it
[23:50] <%Treecko> lose that ability
[23:50] <@RayJay> ... thats my point
[23:50] <%Treecko> you pretty much just totally agreed with him
[23:50] <@RayJay> if you dont have recovery and berry juice is gone
[23:50] <@RayJay> your niche is given up to something with recovery
[23:50] <%dcae> Lel
[23:50] <%Heysup> yo ucan just run eviolite and bulkier sets
[23:50] <%Heysup> ie gligar
[23:50] <@RayJay> because youre going to be using eviolite anyways
[23:50] <%Heysup> you dont necessary ditch the pokemon
[23:50] <@RayJay> why wouldnt you use something that also has recovery
[23:50] <%Treecko> right but gligar gets reliable recovery
[23:50] <%Heysup> tou just change the set
[23:50] <%Heysup> to something with eviolite
[23:50] <%Treecko> yes
[23:50] <%Treecko> the comparison was
[23:51] <%Treecko> things that don't get recovery
[23:51] * panamaxis ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: panamaxis)
[23:51] <%Heysup> but in gen 5 every mon was using fucking eviolite
[23:51] <%Treecko> lose viability
[23:51] <%Heysup> gen 5 purely contradicts that
[23:51] <@RayJay> no gen 5 supports it
[23:51] <%Treecko> and notice how porygon, larvesta, staryu, archen, vullaby, slowpoke, etc.
[23:51] <%Treecko> all had reliable recovery
[23:51] <%Heysup> yea
[23:51] <@RayJay> the metagame converged to bulky pokemon with recovery rather than simply bulky pokemon
[23:51] <@RayJay> which is a much smaller list
[23:51] <%Heysup> but notice the other mons
[23:51] <%Heysup> who just all had eviolite on them
[23:51] <%Heysup> anyway
[23:52] <%dcae> That's because
[23:52] <%Heysup> to counter stuff
[23:52] <%dcae> They had nothing else
[23:52] <%Heysup> it's just going to make it more one-dimensional it doesn't make them no longer viable
[23:52] <@RayJay> its not an issue of viability
[23:52] <@RayJay> its an issue of superiority
[23:52] <%Heysup> i would agree with that
[23:52] <%Treecko> the whole idea is that berry juice allows for a munch larger variety in LC
[23:53] <%Heysup> not with ur crazy extremism
[23:53] <%Treecko> much**
[23:53] <%Treecko> speaking of munch tho
[23:53] <%Treecko> lol
[23:53] <@Hawkstar> of course bj adds variety, it's basically a free full health bar back for most pokemon
[23:54] <@Hawkstar> eviolite added variety from gen 4 to gen 5
[23:54] <%Treecko> mmm
[23:54] <%Heysup> no it didn't
[23:54] <%Treecko> idk how much I agree with that
[23:54] <%Heysup> that's backwards
[23:54] <%Heysup> gen 4 was amazing in terms of variety and balance
[23:55] * panamaxis ([email protected]) has joined #littlecup
[23:55] <@RayJay> anytime you have a singular item that most teams should be using
[23:55] <@Hawkstar> such as berry juice
[23:55] <%Treecko> lol
[23:55] <%Treecko> I would say
[23:55] <%Treecko> most Pokemon should be using**
[23:55] <@RayJay> the metagame will being to form around the pokemon that can use that item the best or pokemon that beat those that use that item
[23:55] <%Treecko> rather than most teams
[23:55] <@RayJay> so
[23:55] <%Treecko> because most teams should still have eviolite as well
[23:55] <@RayJay> naturally, banning berry juice
[23:55] <@RayJay> will make that item eviolite
[23:55] <@prem> but hawkstar...
[23:55] <@RayJay> i think we can agree on that
[23:56] <@prem> its not a singular item
[23:56] <@prem> there are 2 items
[23:56] <@Hawkstar> ok
[23:56] <@RayJay> so in order to prove berry juice is broken
[23:56] <@Hawkstar> that was never in doubt
[23:56] <%Heysup> i agree rayjay
[23:56] * %dcae ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
[23:56] <@RayJay> you must, in my opinion, prove that is the single best item to use the vast majority of the time
[23:56] <@RayJay> which right now i dont think you can because eviolite is still superior on a large portion of the metagame
[23:56] <%Treecko> which it's really not
[23:56] <%Heysup> just for the sake of argument
[23:56] <%Heysup> i tihnk that's wrong
[23:56] <@RayJay> now i could be totally wrong
[23:56] <%Heysup> otherwise you gotta ban leftovers
[23:56] <%Heysup> lol
[23:57] <%Heysup> in higher hames
[23:57] <%Treecko> nah
[23:57] <@prem> but lefties isnt the single best item in upper tiers
[23:57] <@prem> outside of like maybe adv
[23:57] <@prem> and lower
[23:57] <%Treecko> you can't just slap leftovers on everything and expect your team to improve immediately
[23:57] <@prem> and gaining all your health back
[23:57] <%Treecko> unless it's stall
[23:57] <@prem> vs 6& a turn
[23:57] <@prem> is a big difference lol
[23:58] <@RayJay> i guess my point is
[23:58] <@RayJay> i guess my point is
[23:58] <%Treecko> passively gaining all your health back, no less
[23:58] <@RayJay> the problem with gen v
[23:58] <%Heysup> the majority of the time
[23:58] <@RayJay> is that we created a balanced meta
[23:58] <%Heysup> esp in like adv and gen 4
[23:58] <%Heysup> it was all lefties
[23:58] <@prem> gen 4 had life orb for days
[23:58] <%Treecko> gen 3 also had a much smaller variety of viable items
[23:59] <@RayJay> but the balanced meta had been funneled down into centering around reactionary playing and eviolite
[23:59] <@Hawkstar> berry juice is superior on a lot of stuff compared to eviolite
[23:59] <@RayJay> and i feel like honestly the number of available lc pokemon wasnt the problem
[23:59] <@RayJay> it was eviolite
[23:59] <@prem> is it really?
[23:59] <@Hawkstar> why else are we seeing stuff like bj chinchou and staryu that almost always ran eviolite in the past
[23:59] <@prem> but
Session Time: Fri Dec 20 00:00:00 2013
[00:00] <@prem> chinchou runs a variety of items
[00:00] <@RayJay> i dont understand how thats a valid argument
[00:00] <@RayJay> we unbanned an item and now things are using it so its broken?
[00:00] <@prem> not just bj
[00:00] <@Hawkstar> I'm talking defensively
[00:00] <%Treecko> so does staryu
[00:00] <@prem> i still use eviolite chinchou
[00:00] <@prem> at times
[00:00] <@Hawkstar> me too
[00:00] <%Treecko> I run berry juice on staryu so that I can run rapin spin + three attacks
[00:00] <@prem> its not like bj is clearly superioer
[00:00] <@prem> superior
[00:00] <%Treecko> but eviolite recover is still viable
[00:00] <@prem> for staryu it is cause you want that longevity
[00:00] <@RayJay> how about this
[00:00] <@RayJay> i think in order for an item to create a problem in a metagame
[00:01] <@RayJay> it has to be at least as common as the superior choice as eviolite in gen v
[00:01] <Caledrith> Well, I'm flipping tired
[00:01] <Caledrith> gnight guys
[00:01] <@RayJay> because that's a benchmark we can point to and say, "yes, this meta was boring"
[00:01] <Caledrith> have fun arguing
[00:01] <@RayJay> and "yes, nearly everything was using the same item"
[00:01] <%Treecko> it's not really arguing :þ
[00:01] <Caledrith> <3 you all, especially jillian
[00:01] <@RayJay> night cale
[00:01] * Caledrith ([email protected]) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[00:01] <@RayJay> right now, i dont think you can say either of those things about xy
[00:01] <@prem> its discussing
[00:01] <@RayJay> and i think if you remove one you RUN THE RISK (but by no means ensure) that the other will happen
[00:01] <%Treecko> berry juice also makes life orb more viable on more pokemon
[00:02] <@prem> ^
[00:02] <%Treecko> because it lets them get OHKOs they couldn't get vs. eviolite Pokemon
[00:02] <@prem> that is a big thing
[00:02] <@prem> bj actually basically made life orb viable
[00:02] <@Hawkstar> tbh the reason why everything ran eviolite in gen 5 was because there was no good alternative, not just because eviolite was a great item
[00:02] <@prem> for the average person
[00:02] <@prem> yes
[00:02] <@prem> now there is a good alternative
[00:02] <@RayJay> so whats the alternative if you ban berry juice
[00:02] <%Treecko> that doesn't make BW LC any less boring because of it
[00:02] <@prem> which also causes another alternative made
[00:02] <@Hawkstar> nothing
[00:02] <@prem> with berry juice beingp opular
[00:02] <@prem> life orb and even choice items
[00:02] <@Hawkstar> so ONLY then
[00:02] <@prem> can become more popular
[00:03] <@Hawkstar> can we compare the two metagames itemwise
[00:03] <@prem> even if we ban evioilte
[00:03] <@prem> there would be more diversity
[00:03] <@RayJay> but youre ensuring that by banning berry juice
[00:03] <@prem> in items
[00:03] <@prem> lol
[00:03] <@RayJay> the metagame would revolve around one item
[00:03] <@prem> cause everything would use juice, and then people can still use life orb and choice items
[00:03] <@RayJay> you are absolutely supporting that
[00:03] <@RayJay> and i think personally that that was a big cause of the gen v problem
[00:03] <@Hawkstar> scarf and life orb still exist
[00:04] <@RayJay> the argument is not that other items dont exist
[00:04] <QuoteCS> If Eviolite was banned, people wouldn't just auto-flock to Berry Juice
[00:04] <@prem> people ran life orb last gen?
[00:04] <@Hawkstar> I did
[00:04] <@prem> i did too
[00:04] <@RayJay> the argument is that gen v evolved to a metagame that revolved around the best eviolite users and that metagame was boring
[00:04] <@prem> but it was much harder to justify lol
[00:04] <@Hawkstar> knock off + lo abra was a fantastic team comp
[00:04] <@prem> like murkrow was easily justified
[00:04] <%Treecko> yeah, and if berry juice is eliminated, knock off becomes far more necessary to utilize life orb
[00:05] <@Hawkstar> now that knock off got buffed I legitimately believe that eviolite wouldn't be as bad
[00:05] <%Treecko> which also means that you're going to see pawniard on like every fucking team
[00:05] <%Treecko> and I already see too much pawniard as it is
[00:05] <%Treecko> @_@
[00:05] <@prem> SCRAGGYYY
[00:05] <@RayJay> so at the very best
[00:05] <@Hawkstar> other things get knock off
[00:05] <@RayJay> youre hoping
[00:05] <%Treecko> yes, but pawniard is the best user of it
[00:05] <%Treecko> lol
[00:05] <@RayJay> the metagame gets centered around the best knock off users
[00:05] <@Hawkstar> same thing with rapid spinners
[00:05] <@Hawkstar> you had two to choose from if you had anything weak to SR
[00:06] <@RayJay> the alternative is dont build a team that is sr weak
[00:06] <@RayJay> the alternative here virtually doesnt exist
[00:06] <@Hawkstar> ok
[00:06] <@RayJay> dont use items?
[00:06] <@RayJay> run thief on everypokemon?
[00:06] <@RayJay> idk
[00:06] <@Hawkstar> then don't build a team reliant on knocking off eviolites
[00:06] <%Treecko> which means you need to run more eviolite
[00:06] <%Treecko> and less Life Orb
[00:06] <@RayJay> you just said the argument against eviolite is buffed knock off tho
[00:06] <%Treecko> which means less diversity
[00:06] <%Treecko> which
[00:06] <%Treecko> brings us back to where we started
[00:07] <@Hawkstar> One thing I must ask
[00:07] <@Hawkstar> when has the resulting metagame ever been a consideration to whether something was broken now?
[00:07] <@Hawkstar> like
[00:07] <%Treecko> uh
[00:07] <&elevator_music> huh
[00:07] <@RayJay> when you can't prove something is broken
[00:07] <%Treecko> in like every suspect ever?
[00:07] <@prem> it hasnt
[00:07] <@prem> it has?
[00:07] <@RayJay> based on current data
[00:08] <@prem> you should ban something if its broken
[00:08] <%Treecko> I mean
[00:08] <%Treecko> I always consider it
[00:08] <%Treecko> lol
[00:08] <&elevator_music> buffed knock off is a reason for eviolite, not against
[00:08] <&elevator_music> tbh
[00:08] <@RayJay> ^ i agree
[00:08] <QuoteCS> ^
[00:08] <@Hawkstar> how so
[00:08] <@prem> not based on if it will fuck up the meta later
[00:08] <@RayJay> you dont take bonus damage from knock off
[00:08] <@RayJay> if you have eviolite
[00:08] <%Treecko> one of the reasons why I was anti-ban on Jynx in NU was because
[00:08] <@RayJay> in essence
[00:08] <&elevator_music> because pawniard ohkoes you if you're a defensive poke not running reviolite
[00:08] <&elevator_music> eviolite*
[00:08] <%Treecko> scarf sets checked offense
[00:08] <@prem> see Treecko thats bad logic imo
[00:08] <%Treecko> well
[00:08] <%Treecko> setup sweepers
[00:08] <%Treecko> rather
[00:08] <%Treecko> I mean
[00:08] <@prem> there are other things that can check offense im sure.
[00:08] <@RayJay> ok hawk
[00:08] <%Treecko> yeah of course there are
[00:08] <@RayJay> heres the reason why i think its valid
[00:09] <%Treecko> that was only one of the reasons though
[00:09] <Salt> use broken things to check other things ?_?
[00:09] <@prem> so why should jynx stay if everything else about it was broken
[00:09] <@prem> so why should jynx stay if everything else about it was broken
[00:09] <%Treecko> I didn't base it solely off of that
[00:09] <@prem> okay
[00:09] <Salt> that's a reason not to ban something
[00:09] <%Treecko> it wasn't
[00:09] <&elevator_music> knock off would be chill if it didnt get the power increase :/
[00:09] <@prem> yeah im just using it as my point
[00:09] <@prem> i know nothing about nu lol
[00:09] <@RayJay> if we identify gen v as a bad metagame
[00:09] <%Treecko> ik, I'm just saying that considering it isn't invalid
[00:09] <@RayJay> and we dont want a bad metagame
[00:09] <%Treecko> considering what the metagame would be like without it
[00:09] <%Treecko> that is
[00:09] <@RayJay> then our tiering should actively take steps to avoid that
[00:09] <@Hawkstar> thing is
[00:09] <@Hawkstar> we didn't last gen
[00:09] <%Treecko> I did
[00:09] <%Treecko> lol
[00:10] <@RayJay> you DO sacrifice some degree of competitiveness for this
[00:10] <@Hawkstar> there were a few players that wanted to take a look at murkrow
[00:10] <@Hawkstar> myself included
[00:10] <@Hawkstar> and that would have been a step
[00:10] <@prem> yeah
[00:10] <@prem> we shouldve banned murkrow
[00:10] <@prem> probably
[00:10] <@Hawkstar> now we already had before, but many still thought it was broken
[00:10] <@prem> but that probably wouldve just lead more into the eviolite shit that was going on
[00:10] <@prem> tbh
[00:10] <@prem> tbh
[00:10] <@RayJay> hawk maybe you can help me with this
[00:10] <Salt> why was that never dealt with btw
[00:10] <@RayJay> i think youve given me some good responses to why i think berry juice should stay
[00:10] <%Treecko> blarajohn
[00:10] <%Treecko> imo
[00:11] <@prem> because "xy was coming out lets just let bw end peacefully"
[00:11] <@prem> shittiest logic ever lol
[00:11] <@RayJay> but i havent heard any actual reasons FOR berry juice banning
[00:11] <@RayJay> if that makes sense
[00:11] <@Hawkstar> ok
[00:11] <@RayJay> like most people dont seem to say "berry juice is overpowered"
[00:11] <@RayJay> or "berry juice is imbalaned and hence makes the game unfun"
[00:11] <%Treecko> well, it's not an offensive tool
[00:11] <%Treecko> I mean
[00:11] <%Treecko> it can be
[00:11] <@RayJay> which those are the typical arguments for something being banned
[00:11] <@RayJay> and i dont see people even who promote bj being banned
[00:11] <@RayJay> i dont see them making those arguments
[00:12] <@RayJay> i see arguments like "you can have 12 pokemon lol"
[00:12] <Salt> berry juice makes residual damage obsolete, which is why everything is so offensive
[00:12] <@RayJay> which just doesn't seem valid unless it's a glitch not intended by gamefreak
[00:12] <@prem> does it really?
[00:12] <Salt> it's mostly to play around it
[00:12] <%Treecko> it doesn't make it obsolete
[00:12] <%Treecko> in fact in some cases
[00:12] <@prem> how does it make it obselete
[00:12] <@RayJay> no it makes life orb users + sr amazing
[00:12] <@RayJay> houndour is the best its ever been right now with sr support
[00:12] <%Treecko> residual damage is even more
[00:12] <%Treecko> uh
[00:12] <@prem> HOUNDOUR
[00:12] <@prem> MY GOD
[00:13] <@RayJay> because some things are foregoing eviolite
[00:13] <%Treecko> what's the word I'm looking for
[00:13] <@Hawkstar> berry juice gives free turns to anything that can take a hit
[00:13] <@Hawkstar> that's my main problem with it
[00:13] <@RayJay> cant say i disagree with that statement
[00:13] <%Treecko> residual damage is problematic
[00:13] <Salt> that too
[00:13] <@RayJay> fail to see what about that is broken
[00:13] <%Treecko> for many berry juice users
[00:13] <@RayJay> or imbalanced
[00:13] <@prem> i mean
[00:13] <@RayJay> or inherently unfun
[00:13] <@RayJay> or unintended by game freak
[00:13] <%Treecko> I mean, let's be real here
[00:13] <@prem> if you can take 2 hits from eviolite
[00:13] <%Treecko> evioltie does the same thing
[00:13] <%Treecko> yea
[00:13] <@prem> and 1 hit from berry juice
[00:13] <@RayJay> or anything else that classifies something as banworthy
[00:13] <@prem> whats the difference?
[00:13] <@prem> i mean i guess priority
[00:13] * Tsunami ([email protected]) Quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
[00:13] <@prem> but priority will do more the to bj more
[00:13] <@prem> mon
[00:13] <Salt> but berry juice makes it a non issue? i mean sr weak mons can switch in more with bj as opposed to just using evio
[00:13] <@prem> so both cases it should be managable
[00:14] <%Treecko> well
[00:14] <@prem> thats good as far as im concerend
[00:14] <@prem> sr needs a nerf lol
[00:14] <%Treecko> that's why I ran it on Staryu
[00:14] <@prem> it should be spikes level of damage
[00:14] <%Treecko> so I could keep switching in on hazards and take fake outs and shit like that
[00:14] <@prem> 19% for x2 25% for x4
[00:14] <%Treecko> and eat up that residual damage
[00:14] <%Treecko> but
[00:14] <%Treecko> some berry juice pokemon still hate it
[00:14] <%Treecko> see: sturdy juice mons
[00:14] <%Treecko> see: swirlix to an extent
[00:15] <Jillian> :(
[00:15] <%Treecko> see: stealth rock weak juice mons
[00:15] <%Treecko> but there really aren't that many of those I guess
[00:15] <Jillian> sturdyjuice mons love defog
[00:15] <@prem> defog loves pawniard
[00:15] <Jillian> there isnt
[00:15] <@prem> everyone hates pawniard
[00:15] <@prem> :D
[00:15] <%Treecko> too true
[00:15] <Jillian> i was getting to that :p
[00:15] <Jillian> lol
[00:15] <%Treecko> I'm getting tired of Pawniard
[00:15] <%Treecko> ~o~
[00:15] <@prem> i dont actually mind
[00:15] <@prem> its just there
[00:15] <%Treecko> it's so hard to switch into
[00:15] <@prem> i dont care about knock off as a move
[00:15] <%Treecko> I mean
[00:15] <@prem> im literally running
[00:15] <%Treecko> I like it, but it's annoying
[00:15] <@Hawkstar> hold on
[00:15] <@prem> gligar without an item
[00:16] <%Treecko> lol
[00:16] <@prem> its fucking hilarious to see knock offs
[00:16] <@Hawkstar> what is unfun
[00:16] <@prem> tangelol in the sun
[00:16] <%Treecko> it's still bulky without it :U
[00:16] <@prem> is not fun
[00:16] <@RayJay> not enjoyable?
[00:16] <@Hawkstar> about giving 1-2 free turns to anything you can't OHKO off the bat?
[00:16] <@RayJay> ie playing against tangela is a good example
[00:16] <@Hawkstar> a lot
[00:16] <@prem> but eviolite does the same thing?
[00:16] <@prem> doesnt it?
[00:16] <%Treecko> yeah you can't KO much off the bat with Eviolite
[00:16] <@prem> you get more turns cause of added bulk
[00:16] <Salt> no ?
[00:16] <@Hawkstar> you can 2hko an eviolite mon
[00:16] <panamaxis> why itemless gligar
[00:16] <%Treecko> I mentioned that earlier
[00:17] <%Treecko> you can also
[00:17] <%Treecko> 2HKO
[00:17] <%Treecko> berry juice mons
[00:17] <Jillian> itemless gligar
[00:17] <@prem> you can 2hko a bj mon
[00:17] <Jillian> lmao
[00:17] <%Treecko> contrary to popular belief
[00:17] <@prem> itemless gligar
[00:17] <%Treecko> in fact
[00:17] <Jillian> that's so stupid imo
[00:17] <%Treecko> you can also OHKO them
[00:17] <@RayJay> you can also ohko a berry juice mon
[00:17] <Salt> b/c with evio, you can't recover off hazard damage and weak attacks like it's nothing
[00:17] <@prem> cause i dont like berry juice
[00:17] <@RayJay> when you can 2hko an eviolite mon
[00:17] <Jillian> bj helps get your hp back :(
[00:17] <Salt> with evio, you can be worn down
[00:17] <@prem> on gligar
[00:17] <@RayJay> so free turn for the eviolite mon by my calculation
[00:17] <@prem> when i wanna use sd gligar
[00:17] <@prem> i just want to spam acrobatics
[00:17] <@prem> and i have to wait when i use bj
[00:17] <%Treecko> yeah, which is why most Evio mons run a recovery move these days
[00:17] <@prem> until i get hit or some shit lol
[00:17] <%Treecko> yeah I feel you prem
[00:17] <Salt> and you won't have to risk using a weak move to activate instant recovery
[00:17] <@prem> its fucking irritating
[00:17] <%Treecko> I might try that tbh
[00:17] <panamaxis> ah i see
[00:17] <@prem> its like how i ran itemless fletchling
[00:18] <@prem> after giving up on normal gem
[00:18] <@prem> lol
[00:18] <%Treecko> I just don't like fletchling
[00:18] <@prem> itemless was fun
[00:18] <@prem> !
[00:18] <@RayJay> i use fletchling
[00:18] <@RayJay> and wish i was using bunnelby
[00:18] <@prem> see
[00:18] <@prem> i havent used bunny
[00:18] <%Treecko> yeah I believe that
[00:18] <@prem> itemless gligar is totally legit though
[00:18] <%Treecko> bunnelby is so good lol
[00:18] <@prem> like people should use it
[00:18] <@prem> it made me love gligar again
[00:18] <@RayJay> yeah itemless gligar is good
[00:18] <@prem> cause like... you cant use sd gligar right now
[00:18] <@prem> as far as im concerned anyway
[00:18] <@prem> and no one sees sd gligar coming
[00:19] <Jillian> i use sd gligar
[00:19] <@Hawkstar> yes you can
[00:19] <@prem> its pretty funy
[00:19] <Salt> bunnelby might be too much after tang leaves or if glgiar goes idk
[00:19] <Jillian> sd/sr/acro/eq
[00:19] <@prem> fuk that noise i always ohko gligar
[00:19] <@Hawkstar> SD Normal gem with return
[00:19] <Jillian> with bj
[00:19] <@prem> LOL
[00:19] <@prem> see
[00:19] <@prem> thats like fltetchling
[00:19] <Jillian> fuck your noise bitch
[00:19] <@Hawkstar> I run that
[00:19] <Jillian> i still set up my sr
[00:19] <@RayJay> that extra turn is annoying
[00:19] <@prem> the thing is i dont want to get hit
[00:19] <@prem> when i use gligar
[00:19] <@prem> i just want to...
[00:19] <@prem> kill them with acrobatics.
[00:19] <%Treecko> 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 84.5% chance to 3HKO
[00:19] <%Treecko> 228 Atk Life Orb Huge Power Bunnelby Quick Attack vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 8-9 (30.7 - 34.6%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
[00:19] <%Treecko> ehehehehhee
[00:19] <%Treecko> Life Orb Quick Attack is stronger than no-item Acrobatics
[00:19] <@Hawkstar> also rayjay I think you misunderstand my definition of free turn
[00:19] <Salt> wow
[00:19] <%Treecko> that's amazing
[00:19] <%Treecko> I love Bunnelby so much lol
[00:20] <@prem> i just run
[00:20] <@Hawkstar> or at least
[00:20] <@RayJay> ok thats possible
[00:20] <@prem> sd eq acro knock off
[00:20] <@prem> its a fun set
[00:20] <@RayJay> care to elaborate
[00:20] <@Hawkstar> What I'm thinking of
[00:20] <@prem> cause they think you are support or something
[00:20] <@prem> when you spam knocko ff
[00:20] <@prem> then its like sd acrobat da fuk
[00:20] <%Treecko> I also believe that Berry Juice causes more smart-thinking and strategizing in the actual battle
[00:20] <Salt> eh
[00:20] <@prem> meh it causes you to want to hit with weak attacks
[00:20] <@prem> then strong ones
[00:20] <@prem> lol
[00:21] <%Treecko> which is strategizing
[00:21] <%Treecko> :O
[00:21] <Jillian> i might change up
[00:21] <@prem> i guess
[00:21] <%Treecko> like
[00:21] <Jillian> just cause prem is sorta right
[00:21] <@Hawkstar> think of something like BJ Pawniard
[00:21] <Jillian> i do like stiring despair
[00:21] <@Hawkstar> compared to eviolite
[00:21] <%Treecko> Eviolite Pawn is better anyways tbh
[00:21] <%Treecko> (imo)
[00:21] <Jillian> pls
[00:21] <@Hawkstar> you can OHKO it either way with a fighting move no prob
[00:21] <Jillian> i like lo pawn
[00:21] <@Hawkstar> but take something like
[00:21] <@prem> stfu let hawkstar finish.
[00:21] <@Hawkstar> unboosted swirlix flamethrower
[00:22] <@Hawkstar> which OHKOes neither
[00:22] <@Hawkstar> the BJ set activates the item and is at full health while evio is at something like 45-50%
[00:22] <@Hawkstar> I'll have to run calcs to make sure I'm not horribly off :#
[00:22] <%Treecko> lol
[00:22] <%Treecko> it's fine
[00:22] <@Hawkstar> then pawny sets up a swords dance
[00:22] <@Hawkstar> which is scarier?
[00:23] <@prem> 204+ SpA Swirlix Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
[00:23] <@prem> ?
[00:23] <panamaxis> and then swirlix gets pawned
[00:23] <%Treecko> I mean
[00:23] <@Hawkstar> +2 pawniard at full health or half health with evio?
[00:23] <%Treecko> well there's that
[00:23] <@prem> ?
[00:23] <%Treecko> either way
[00:23] <@prem> calcs
[00:23] <@RayJay> see hawkstar
[00:23] <%Treecko> I wouldn't stay in on a Pawniard
[00:23] <@prem> say otherwise?
[00:23] <%Treecko> with my Swirlix
[00:23] <%Treecko> but again
[00:23] <@RayJay> that argument proves that berry juice makes sense on a pawniard over eviolite
[00:23] <%Treecko> that's strategizing
[00:23] <@Hawkstar> also who runs modest swirlix
[00:23] <@prem> did i get the set wrong
[00:23] <@prem> i do
[00:23] <@prem> lol
[00:23] <%Treecko> everyone
[00:23] <%Treecko> lol
[00:23] <@Hawkstar> really?
[00:23] <@prem> i thought modest was standard
[00:23] <panamaxis> people who don't want to be pawned
[00:23] <%Treecko> I don't know of anyone who uses timid
[00:23] <@prem> i made the fucking sex
[00:23] <@prem> set*
[00:23] <@Hawkstar> it misses the speed tie on yanma without timid
[00:23] <@Hawkstar> hmm
[00:23] <@prem> see the thing is
[00:23] <Salt> yeah, i thought modest was standard too
[00:23] <@Hawkstar> I always ran timid swirlix
[00:23] <@prem> people should be running timid yanma
[00:23] <@RayJay> modest is what i see
[00:23] <@RayJay> but anyways
[00:24] <%Treecko> it also beats yanma anyways unless it flinches
[00:24] <@prem> anyway
[00:24] <@prem> if they are runnign speed boost
[00:24] <@RayJay> i feel all your argument proves
[00:24] <@RayJay> is that berry juice can be better than eviolite
[00:24] <@RayJay> i dont see why the conclusion is that berry juice should be banned from that
[00:24] <@prem> also less important
[00:24] <@prem> 204 SpA Swirlix Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Pawniard: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
[00:24] <Jillian> they both have their benefit
[00:24] <@prem> but with sr that number is pretty high
[00:24] <@prem> to ohko
[00:24] <Jillian> ew no i'll pass on using that
[00:25] <@prem> how much does sr do to 21 damage
[00:25] <@prem> when its resisted?
[00:25] <@prem> 3 damage right?
[00:25] <@prem> or 2
[00:25] <%Treecko> uh
[00:25] <%Treecko> not 3
[00:25] <@prem> okay then 2
[00:25] <%Treecko> for this particular calc
[00:25] <@prem> yeah
[00:25] <@prem> it does 18 then 20 damage
[00:25] <%Treecko> because I doubt there's a 19 dmg roll on that calc
[00:25] <@prem> it matters
[00:26] <%Treecko> yea
[00:26] <@prem> well 21-3=18
[00:26] <@prem> which means its guaranteed ohko
[00:26] <%Treecko> oh
[00:26] <%Treecko> I saw 18-22 damage
[00:26] <%Treecko> and assumed 22 HP pawn
[00:26] <%Treecko> lol
[00:26] <@prem> lol
[00:26] <@prem> nah
[00:26] <@prem> pawn is 21 normally
[00:26] <%Treecko> anyways
[00:26] <panamaxis> is Treecko any good in LC
[00:26] <@prem> yeah
[00:26] <%Treecko> in that situation, 1. the pawniard is never going to set up
[00:26] <@RayJay> yup
[00:26] <@Hawkstar> apparently
[00:26] <panamaxis> as in
[00:26] <panamaxis> the pkmn
[00:26] <%Treecko> oh
[00:27] <&elevator_music> no
[00:27] <%Treecko> lol
[00:27] <%Treecko> no
[00:27] <%Treecko> the pkmn is awful
[00:27] <@prem> oh the pkmn is trash


HAI SPLASHYSHIT