Ecosystemic Futures Podcast 69: Beyond Conventional Physics Transcript

00:06
Hello and welcome again to Ecosystemic Futures podcast, presented by NASA Convergent Aeronautics Solutions Project in collaboration with Shosham Works, a global firm that helps organizations and nations navigate ecosystemic transformation. As our world is increasingly digital and interconnected, ecosystemic models are reshaping society, industry, economy, and policy, and reframing how we build for resilient futures.

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investigates this expansive and hyper-connected paradigm and explores frameworks to help us achieve more beneficial futures. I'm Diane Fickhausen, CEO of ShoshumWorks, and I'm honored to introduce a very special session today. We're joined by a panel of leading global experts in aerospace energy and advanced technologies to explore disruptive technologies and extended electrodynamics, including energy,

01:04
Propulsion, Communication, and Bio. And we're joined here today by some of the world's leading experts in these domains. First and foremost, I'd love to hand it over to my co-host, Anna Brady-Estavez. Anna, would you mind introducing yourself? Hey, everybody. I'm Anna Brady-Estavez, and I'm active in funding innovators. And that's something that I've done in the private sector, also at the National Science Foundation.

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while leading the space technology, energy, digital assets and other national portfolios. And also I'm over at SBA as an investment officer, senior investment advisor and partner over at SBA in their venture capital programs. And co-chair at the Space Economy Interagency. So I've had the opportunity to really get to know people through the range of these roles.

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and work with them and a number of tremendous colleagues, really from across the interagency that are highly interested in these areas. Amazing, thank you, Anna. And we're excited to welcome a number of your collaborators here this morning. Would you mind just walking through some of the introductions and kicking off the conversation for the day? Thank you, yes. I think we're gonna have a number of amazing colleagues join over the day, so I'm gonna introduce them.

02:26
kind of in different segments, because I want to make sure that we get everybody. But starting out, as we talk about this field, I'd like to introduce the co-host, Larry Foresley, who's with NASA and also Global Energy Corporation, and then introduce Hal Putoff and also Lou DeCherro. Larry, would you share your introduction? Sure. I'm Larry Foresley. I'm Chief Technology Officer for Global Energy Corporation in Virginia.

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And I've been working for the last decade or more with NASA Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio, where we've been working on a variety of advanced fusion and fast-fishing technologies for deep space. Thank you, Laurie. And Hal, I mean, you've been active. We're going to be covering a broad range of technologies today, and certainly you've been active across many of them as one of the leaders, if not the leader, in the field in some of these areas.

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I'm Hal Puthoff. I'm CEO of Earth Tech International. We pursue advanced ideas and laboratory developments in energy, propulsion, communications, primarily targeted towards spaceflight applications. So it ranges all the way from quantum systems for communication to evaluating potential general relativity models for advanced propulsion for P phenomena.

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in collaboration with a number of government institutes. So it's great to see you today. And so just wanna note that in this field of extended electrodynamics, quantum phenomena, energy, as Hal mentioned, also UAPs, because there's an expected tie there, just that Hal's been very active in building out the theory and the work, how this phenomena behaves, how to utilize it.

04:22
Larry has been increasingly active in this area. And then Lou DiCerro, who's also on the line, is one of the other leaders who's been highly active in this space on the theoretical buildout. Lou. Yes, hello everybody. I'm Lou DiCerro. I'm currently employed by the Naval Surface Warfare Center at Indian Head as one of the staff scientists. And we've been doing a lot of work with low energy nuclear reactions research.

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I'm also very interested in extended electrodynamics, and in particular, in what we would call the coupled Maxwell heavy side equations, which apparently, according to some of our Russian theorists, may establish a link between electrodynamics, spin, fields, and gravity, offering some very interesting possibilities. Uh-oh, you'd like very much to have an opportunity to get into those.

05:18
and perhaps use them to describe quantitatively how some advanced propulsion systems could operate. Over. Yeah. And each of you is really active in building things. And then I know that we don't have Lee Hively on the line today, someone else who's also very active building out the understanding, one of the leaders in this field. But I know several of you are also in very close contact with Lee Hively.

05:43
So just, and then as we go forth in the call, we have a number of entrepreneurs who are actually building out, as many of you are, applications in this field. So Larry, we've known each other for many years on the disruptive technology side, and you had come to me and to others who I know very well, probably a year and a half, two years ago, on the field of EED.

06:13
as we call it. So instead of saying extended electrodynamics, we'll call it EED, probably from this point forward. But walk me through, so I was in those early meetings and then we really broadened out this group to increase the participation. But what would you share with people, like in terms of those early meetings that you were pulling together on EED? Yeah, thank you. The meetings grew out of another set of meetings that had been held, including Lou DiChiaro and Lee Hively.

06:42
mostly addressing how do we go about communicating through dense media, water, things that we can't propagate radio waves through. And we wrestled with this, we wrestled with various people who were trying to develop antennas and to both transmit and receive. As we got deeper into this, we found out that a number of pieces of what we thought were well-known electromagnetic equations, maybe we're missing some pieces.

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And some of those pieces had been noticed as early as the 1920s, but they came to the fore in the mid-50s and then proven in the 1970s. The idea that everything is a field. What we were beginning to wrestle with, which Hal has done a great deal of work in, is instead of the fields, an electromagnetic field like light, you have what's called a potential. And there is no field. So this is where we are now in the EED section.

07:40
Lou addressed is the possibility that electromagnetics and extended electromagnetics extends into general relativity. Russian colleagues that Lou has been looking at in depth have purportedly used this to move objects at distances and this all kind of comes together when you look at what is it that drives UAPs both in terms of condensed very compact energy sources

08:09
and what provides them with the mechanism by which they can move around. I think Hal was what it pointed out in a question and answer earlier on another podcast. It's not that the science that they may be employing goes beyond ours, it just goes beyond our current engineering. So a number of us on this podcast are, if you will, working on that engineering. So as I'm listening to Larry talk about the energy implications here, also the UAP implications,

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I mean, I think this is really something that the level of interest right now in advanced technologies, certainly with space technology, appears to be, from my perspective, having worked in this the last 15, 20 years, appears like it's at an all-time high. And then the level of information that's following fields of technology like UAP, which historically was not as openly discussed.

09:08
say 15 or 20 years ago, there's really an acceleration in terms of more being shared, more that's public, more that leaders have brought up and certainly ongoing discussions with Congress, investors, entrepreneurs. What do you see has changed in terms of the openness to these advanced energy topics and then also the UAP side?

09:37
On the UAP side, in the past, people claimed to have seen unusual craft or whatever, but it was just eyeball descriptions and can you accept what someone says, a farmer out in the field or whatever. But as our technology has gone forward, we've developed more detailed and very sophisticated sensors. So now our ships and our planes have unbelievable sensors.

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And so these sensors are recording observations of what we call unidentified aerial phenomena. And so it can no longer be kind of set aside because pilots, for example, who have near misses have to report these phenomena. And because of the increased sensor capability, we had extremely excellent visuals, infrared, electromagnetic radar signatures and so on.

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So this jump up in technology over the decades has gotten to the point where finally you can't dismiss the UAP area. And so that's why it's come more into focus. And as it's come into focus, there have been a couple of congressional investigations where they brought in pilots and so on to say, what is it they're observing? So the tinfoil-haft crowd kind of approach to this has faded away.

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because now you have real people who are interested. And then based on that, you've had major legislation proposed in Congress to get to the bottom and to reveal them to the public. So that whole subject area has taken a giant step forward. Now back on the electromagnetic aspects, if you make a Venn diagram, let's say a large circle, and in there you put vector and scalar

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a smaller circle in there as electric and magnetic fields associated with it. But that means there's a large part of electromagnetism where you can have vector and scalar potentials that don't have any electromagnetic aspect to them. So if that's the case, well, how can you detect that? It turns out that when you drop from the classical level down to the quantum level, quantum wave functions of course have their phases and that's how they interact.

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potentials affect the phases of quantum wave functions, even in the absence of fields. So if you're willing to drop down a level and get into quantum detection where you are measuring the phase of quantum waves, then you have a possibility of detecting vector and scalar potentials even if there are no EM fields associated with them. And so in fact, we have a large program going with a defense contractor.

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several million dollars worth of investment and a couple years down the road here, where quantum detectors for this kind of extended electrodynamic concept are being pursued. And so just the whole new area. Thank you for sharing Hal. And I see as you're talking about quantum and quantum sensing, I'm seeing our colleague, you just wanna say that this group, this extended electrodynamics group and people who have been exploring,

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this advanced physics, this quantum and the ties between anomalous phenomena and UAPs has included also tremendous colleagues across the government. And many of them weren't able to join today. It was a very short notice, but I see Rima here from who's very active in the quantum side. Rima, would you like to share anything with regards to your interest in these areas? Sure. Thanks for hosting and for allowing me to be a part of this. My name is Rima Kasha-Owey, and I'm with the U.S. Department of Energy. I'm the Senior Commercialization Executive.

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working on trying to commercialize quantum technologies and also helping to build a space economy. And I think this is an area that we need to be tracking. We are looking at trying to develop quantum sensing technologies to protect our critical infrastructure. And we're also interested in secure quantum communications and also supporting the development of quantum computing. So anything that reveals new information in terms of how we should understand quantum mechanics.

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is important and relevant to our understanding of how to apply these technologies for day-to-day purposes and for protecting our society and the critical infrastructure that we need every day and the ability to be able to harness energy in an efficient and secure way. So this is an area that I think we need to pay attention to and continue monitoring. We're also realizing that sometimes we have to go back to the fundamentals, and we realize that sometimes through the applied work that we're doing.

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And so the fundamental science, the basic science, and the applied science need to work hand in hand and create a feedback loop. And I think a group like this allows us to do that kind of thing. You've got theoretical physicists out there talking about, well, like the European Union, for example, is investing in new theories of physics, like decorated permutations and positive geometry. And so that all complements the kind of things that we're doing here today. And so we need to be paying attention to it.

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Thank you for having me, for having this conversation, and we're very interested in following these developments. Here, Rima, and so much of this, in terms of these areas of inquiry, really did, from this group, stem from some of our interests in advanced energy, right? So Larry's active on the fusion side. I mean, I've been very active with both the space and energy portfolios where I've worked.

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But so I think this piece, and I wanted to give Hal the opportunity to just now to have brought forth that UAP piece, because I think for people who have been staying in a specific field of energy or communications, they're not always aware of all the changes in terms of what's been released recently with.

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the acknowledgement in Congress of whether it's data programs with UAPs or with crash retrievals and things like that. So it's a very different state of on the pilots, they've been seeing these things with advanced energy characteristics multiple times a day. So it's a very different period of time than it was certainly five, 10, 15 years ago. So if we think about what was being openly discussed 15 years ago, small fraction.

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of what's out there today, but there's still calls that scientists could perhaps be doing more to break down across silos and to really explore advanced physics. And in some cases, that ties into the anomalous phenomena. So getting back to the energy side, which is where many of us kind of stepped into the conversation, I know that we are going to be getting into, we have a number of entrepreneurs on the call.

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who are working towards advanced propulsion, advanced transport, advanced communication. Larry, could you share what you were initially seeing from the fusion side or some of the ways that you got invited various meetings to look at a few of these topics in parallel or interlinked? Sure, when I became aware through Lou DiCherro of the

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equations behind extended electrodynamics, I had him under our NASA contract look into extending what's a standard piece of modeling code for molecular dynamics, which is a density functional theory code, to incorporate and see whether or not modified Maxwell's equations would change the probability that you might be able to do fusion within a solid lattice. And lattice confinement fusion is what I've been working on.

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literally for about 35 years now. What we were surprised to find is it does make a difference under certain conditions. And these conditions may actually appear in conventional hot fusion Tokamaks. So we're trying to work all of that out too. So there's a convergence of understanding, experimentation and modeling.

18:04
That's helpful. And just not everybody listening is familiar with lattice confinement fusion. So can you give us kind of a few bullet points on the what's different and what's expected to be advantageous? Sure. Much as Louis Hal was mentioning that the whole business of a propagating potential is a quantum mechanical effect. What we also rely upon in a metal lattice, typically of say titanium or

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is reloaded with hydrogen isotopes so instead of just regular hydrogen we put in there a deuteron which is a heavy hydrogen it's got a proton and a neutron and under normal conditions if you want to make these fuse you've got to get them to temperatures on the order of say fifty million degrees what we find is because of quantum mechanical conditions within the lattice you have an effect called electron screening and it turns out that you are also confining these

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So they end up effectively being at a temperature very close to 30 to 50 million degrees. So you have a metal lattice you can hold in your hand, which when parts of it undergo fusion, you have temperatures that far exceed even 50 million degrees, that heat then dissipates. So then the problem is not to get it started, then the problem is how do you control it so it doesn't fall apart? And basically enabling smaller fusion.

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which is important for a wide range of applications, including in space, and potentially much cheaper fusion production. Is that fair to say? Very fair, because I come out of the hot fusion community using lasers here in the States, magnetic mirrors that deliver more tokamaks in Germany, and every one of these is from the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor in France, is now well over $25 billion and is the size of a six-story building.

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cannot be commercialized and certainly will not go into space. The current project I'm on through the NASA Innovative Advanced Concepts is to use this as an alternative power supply to melt through 25 miles of ice on icy worlds like the Jovian world Europa and the Saturnian world Enceladus. And it turns out there may be far more of these icy worlds in our solar system and other solar systems than just plain bare rocks.

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Thank you for sharing. That's some very exciting work, Larry. And I realize, again, talking with some of the most technically in-depth experts in the world, it's easy for us to go really deep into the science. But before kind of diving into the science, I think stepping back and saying, okay, we're talking about insights into a field of physics that has not been readily or broadly understood and acknowledged, right?

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and the ability to build things in ways that we haven't seen as much of a public exploration of those fields of development. So as we've had these conversations in the EED group, that's in this quantum energy, advanced physics, anomalous phenomena type areas, so many things have come up in terms of areas of faster, better, cheaper.

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capability that doesn't exist or isn't understood to exist or perhaps is observed but not readily harnessed. So communications have come up, energy storage, propulsion, biology, biosignaling, advanced materials. Hal, I know you've provided us in other meetings a tremendous list.

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of the types of technologies that you've worked with. But if you were to share, what are, if somebody's listening and saying, why do I care about EED or quantum or anomalous phenomena? What would you take to them and say, you're looking for better and here is a key to making better? Okay, I would start with saying, what are some of the things that we sort of can't do with our present technology? And so,

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You'd ask the question, well, I can't communicate to submarines with ordinary electromagnetic means. If spaceships are out there and they're surrounded by plasma, I can't communicate to them with ordinary EM because electromagnetic fields induce responses in water or in plasma that prevent a signal that you're trying to send to get through. So I start with that as a question and say, well,

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How can I fix that? And so when we get into our EED, our extended electrodynamics, we say, OK, well, why is it we can't get through those barriers? Well, it's because an ordinary electromagnetic signal, when it reaches a barrier like that, it induces responses with currents and charge distributions that basically prevent you from getting through the barrier. So you say, OK, well, how can I get around that?

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Well, if I didn't have any electromagnetic component to my signaling system, then I wouldn't induce these responses that prevent me from doing what I wanna do. Well, is there a way of doing that within electromagnetics? So that's when we look into extended electrodynamics, which includes looking at dropping a level deeper and looking at the vector and scalar potentials, which in addition to being

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ordinarily useful in electromagnetism. It also has additional aspects to interactive quantum systems. And so you could strip out electromagnetic waves and then you have just pure potentials. Potentials can get through plasmas or they can get through conductive seawater. So that's a nice route to go by. Take a look at what the problem is. Why, what do you have to do to fix it?

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Can we fix it with any technologies we have available today if we push them in a new direction? And so the EED is like an example of that. Thank you, Hal. That's really helpful. And it kind of brings us back to why we need to really thoroughly do the research, have also the funding to do the research in these areas, is many of these things are not

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it's not a luxury, right? So we experience, if we're experiencing real-time communications on Earth and then it's over a second to the Moon, right? So in terms of real-time to the Moon, if we're talking about speed of communications to Mars in terms of 20-40 minute round-trip communications as we go out to Mars and even beyond.

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So I think this need for alternative modalities in communications are very important, and obviously the ability to go through mass as well, in terms of achieving the communications. So this is a good, so very much a difference between, particularly when you're communicating through planetary mass, through whether it's an actual planet, whether it's bodies of ice, miles of ice.

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where there's communicating through oceans, very much a need to have here. And then the speed at which those communications can be attained, very important as well. I feel like this would be a good time to bring in Phil Lentz, if Phil's on. Yeah, my name's Philip Lentz, and we founded UnSpace about five years ago to investigate, now that I've met these guys, the intersections of gravitational physics.

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and an EED. We certainly hope that they are related. Our experiments suggest that they are. Walking through the use case, I could repeat those. Certainly, ice occluded bodies in space, situations where plasma from the sun interferes with communication signals. I think we've covered those scenarios pretty well. But what we found in the last five years is experiments have shown that space-time, it can be modified. When we look at UAPs, we certainly see...

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Phenomena that's that defy anything that we can understand regarding materials that could stay together Life that it could exist 90 degree turns at Mach 10 Just should not be possible. So if you look at explanations Warp space time curve space time certainly allow those things to be possible There's a handful of other phenomena. We look at

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pulsars with neutron stars, we see anomalies there that just don't make sense. Those things should be flying apart and they are not based on their spins. When we use gravitational assist to accelerate spacecraft or probes to get to a location at a faster speed, we see anomalies with their accelerations. And there's a handful of other anomalies. We could talk about dark energy all day long. But as we start to look at those things, pressure starts to come into play.

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and kinetic energy, centripetal pressures related to spin, those types of things are very much electrodynamic in nature, could very well be tied to EED. And when you start to look at how waves need to propagate over some medium, we start maybe seeing an intersection between Einstein's special relativity, general relativity, and EED, because space-time might very well be the medium that these longitudinal scalar waves travel over.

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So that's what we're doing. We are taking a curved space time, we're sculpting it. We're creating a higher energy gravitational waves by curving space time, kind of like a lens where a lot of you guys have heard of gravitational lensing. Well, we are doing that not with light, but we were doing it with gravitational waves to create a higher energy level. Gravitational waves, courtesy of LIGO, we have learned they're very weak, but they certainly are a great opportunity for multi-signal.

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science, astrophysical science, and communication screams for it. So if you can concentrate these waves at a higher energy, you don't need a four kilometer long leg of an interferometer at LIGO. You can do this over 30 centimeters or so. So then you've got a receiver that's an interferometer, and you've got a boosted higher energy gravitational wave as a transmitter, and then we oscillate those as a function of acceleration changes and vibration modes.

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So that's where we are today. We've got the experimental data that shows that these things are possible. It's happening. We are sculpting space time. We are now generating gravitational waves using what we call wave guide to create those at a higher to magnify those or concentrate them at a higher energy. And now we're building a custom interferometer at a small scale that's able to do what LIGO does in support of communication. Thank you, Anna.

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That's great. Thank you so much, Phil. And I noticed that while I was speaking on the comm side, it looked like Hal, I don't know if Hal had something further to say or not, but if he did, I was kind of watching your expression, Hal. Was there something that you wanted to add to my or Phil's comments? No, I think it covered it pretty well. You're welcome to correct if I said something incorrect. It's better for you to correct it.

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But one thing I can add is, which chimes right in with what he was talking about with curved space, is that as part of the EUAP program for the Defense Intelligence Agency, you hear pilots say, oh my God, what we're seeing is just way beyond our physics. But it turns out that's not really a true statement. It's, as Larry said, it may be beyond our engineering, but it's not necessarily beyond our physics. And so I had the...

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experience of making a list of all the weird things that had been claimed to have been observed on one side of a piece of paper. And then on the other side of the piece of paper say, if I could engineer Einstein's equations of general relativity the way we engineer Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism, what kind of effects would I would see? And it turns out that across that piece of paper, you can get a one-to-one correspondence. So I think that

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actually our understanding of some of the far out aspects of observations of UAP fall within a realm that we can understand. And so then that provides motivation for saying, okay, well then how can we find a way engineering wise to move into that band? Well, we've got a long way to go, but at least we have a direction to go. Now, if you wouldn't, I mean, obviously,

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So many people who have seen a wide number of really interesting observations that pertain to any, a whole expanse of things in terms of advanced, whether you want to call it advanced physics, anomalous phenomena, some of that would fit in the UAP side of things with advanced craft or other energy phenomena. Other would be in different realms, right, of what's interesting. I kind of think about

31:51
Well, it's almost like if we were experiencing static electricity before electricity was harnessed or if there was some phenomena that so many people were seeing pieces of it, but maybe not the whole thing and there wasn't that fully understood and acknowledged explanation of this is just how it fits into our framework of the universe or physics or chemistry, whatever it is. When you talk about those weird things on the left-hand side that then sync up.

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with engineering Einstein's equations, what are some of those weird things on the left-hand side that are discussable? Well, for example, someone approaches a craft that's of a certain size, and then when they get inside, it's as big as a football field. Well, how does that happen? Well, it turns out that one of the predictions of your engineering Einstein's equations, you can have that happen. Another example would be...

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When a person on the ground sees a craft come along and suddenly do a 90 degree turn at Mach 10, you say, how could anybody survive that if there were many beings inside? However, if you look at the engineering of general relativity, you find out that under certain conditions, time is running much faster in the ship that's being engineered than it's running outside. And so they just take a leisurely turn.

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course when they look out at the people on the ground they all seem to be in slow motion. So what looks like an unbelievable turn to us can be rather leisurely turn from those who are inside. Other aspects, military people who've gotten too close to powered-up craft will often get, or worse yet, radiation sickness. And so it turns out that when again you're looking at the equations of general relativity

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under these conditions of having advanced propulsion, it turns out you get a blue shift in all the frequencies. And so ordinary black body radiation coming off the heat of the craft, which ordinarily would not be particularly harmful, if it gets blue shifted up into the UV and even beyond that into soft x-rays, well then suddenly you can be harmed by that. So again, there's an example where

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we see an observation and we can link it back to the physics. And there are just a whole number of those. Yeah, and those are really, are there any others that you think are, I mean, I think it's a good part of the reason that we're discussing this so much now is that not everybody has had all these observations that you've mentioned are public, right? These are all things that I've, we've heard so many people.

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who have been there, seen it firsthand, and there's books, there's podcasts, there's testimony to Congress, all these things. Those three examples you just gave are shareable, but at the same time, it's not something that's in Physics 101. It's not something that most, many people haven't actually been exposed to it. So considering that there are engineers, scientists, people who...

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frame out whether as investors or as funders, what should we be digging into? What are some of these other things on the left hand side of the sheet of paper, the unusual things that you think scientists or investors should be taking note of? And this is the one you've shared. Well, in addition, for example, strength of materials. And it turns out that the material bonds get blue shifted also.

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So that means that a craft like that with material bonds blue shifted could go into the water, go into land, and not come apart because to those that are there, the rest of the world looks like butter. And so you're able to go right on through. So hardening of materials under these warped space-time conditions is another element that you could...

36:06
So, all these fall in line in a very straightforward way. And by the way, it has been accepted in physics. I put together a whole list of all of that and what the consequences are in general relativity. And I published a paper in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society. So, this stuff is making it into the physics journals, if you know where to dig.

36:33
I'm sure this is going to be a go-to read for anybody listening who cares about things like transmedium interactions or non-interactions with mass. So that ability of something to, I think what you're referring to on the observational science side is when we hear about these crafts that are going from 80,000 feet to sea level in less than a second on some of these things, and I'm not sure what the speed is.

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when they're going into water, but they're not hitting it. They're just, there's not that impact one would expect based on speed. So that kind of transmedium transport. So what is that journal? What's the date on that? Journal of British, what is it? Journal of the British Interplanetary Society. Lily, seen it? If I could dig that up in a hurry. We can always get back to you on that. We can, you can get back to you after. I have to dig it up, yeah.

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Asarine from Larry. I think I'll pop Diana Shonox so that the listeners have access to that link. It's great. There's another area that I saw that MK had put up a little question about, or what about the consciousness, for example, and interacting with materials and so on. Well, it turns out the, as I mentioned in the EED approach where you're concentrating on potentials rather than fields.

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you interact with quantum systems. And we use Josephson junctions, because they're the perfect sort of quantum detector that's used in quantum computing and quantum communications and so on. Well, it turns out there's a whole field of research being pushed by Roger Penrose, who's a Nobel Prize winner, along with Stu Hameroff, in which they've said, now wait a minute, there are actually quantum detectors in the human body.

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in the form of so-called microtubules. And those microtubules operate like Josephine junctions. So the idea that you might actually have that kind of an interaction between quantum communication systems and even the human body is not off the charts. A lot of work needs to be done. And of course, they've been working hard on trying to show that correlation,

38:58
So even getting into the idea that there might be communication processes involving the human body and vacuum scalar waves is not off the charts. It all needs exploration. And so that's another area that based on MK's question could be pursued.

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And I do want to give MK an opportunity to introduce herself. I mean, she's been very active in this EED group and we're grateful for her work and her participation. MK, did you want to share your work in advanced technologies and energy and provide any additional color on your consciousness question? Well, I don't have much of a voice, but if Larry can, I think Larry? Okay, if I have something to contribute, I will. And Larry, I saw that earlier you had...

39:47
You were ready to weigh in perhaps on an earlier point before we got into the bio side. Yeah, I was just going to point out that one of the problems with developing advanced technology is at what point have you moved from proving it in science to proving it as a technology. And the lattice confinement fusion got tarred and feathered much as UAP and UFOs did back in 1989 with what was called cold fusion.

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And of course the question always is, well, if it's real, why doesn't someone sell a product? And it turns out we published two papers in the physical review journal back in 2020, and colleagues of ours in the United Kingdom have now turned into a commercial product. They are gonna be generating medical radioisotopes potentially in every hospital in the world using lattice confinement fusion. So that's one. The second one is Hal's point about

40:44
the potential blue shift of the radiation that would normally just be emitted as heat. And the blue shift implies that obviously there's a very strong gravitational field. One of the side effects that he points out is people have gotten burned from these things, from ultraviolet that'll give you at best a bad sunburn, and the soft x-rays that will do considerably more damage. One of the side effects which has never been used to my knowledge is to optically look with a spectrometer.

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at the emissions when somebody comes close to these devices. The reason it's important is that if you've got soft, far UV, soft x-ray radiation, you will actually light up nitrogen in the atmosphere. And since it's 80% nitrogen, there's plenty of nitrogen around you. So if these things are happening and someone has a cheap optical spectrometer, specifically looking for the nitrogen line, you'll say, I've passed something that is

41:41
doing amazing things with the local gravity. And the second thing that's related to this is I was tapped by the Navy, oh, probably eight years ago to come up with means to how could we tell this happened and directly play into this is the idea to look at the time base on the flight recorders, which is nominally about one nanosecond accurate. And if you compare the time base, when they take off with what they have, when they come back, if it's been shifted.

42:10
And provided it's not canceled itself out by having come close and moved away from a UAP, you would see a time-based shift indicative of a relativistic change as they came close to the device. So the idea is in each of these areas, and many of the people that Anna's funded are building devices whose properties may in fact be encompassed by UAP.

42:35
some of the UAP observables. So it's kind of this getting back to the, cause when we think about what is a UAP, I mean, there's, there are others who could better describe it on the call. So I'll open it up to others. But if you think about, there's these ultra advanced craft. And when we think about our own terrestrial craft that are advanced. So if we think about, if you're putting up the ISS or if you're going to put

43:05
put use any of our ships that are going out further, like a starship, or what do you put on it? You're putting on your most advanced materials, you're putting advanced comms, advanced you're using what you see is the most efficient energy, energy storage. When you have a movable lab like the ISS, you've got advanced biology and you're going to be putting medical on it. So it's really this convergence of when we think about, you know,

43:35
Aspirationally, what we're going to send further out, these vehicles, when they're going further out, if there's humans, it's a bit more like an RV where you bring your best stuff. So how you or Lou or Larry or others might have other definitions of on a UAP, there's all these systems that we would expect or that we know are present from what they're doing.

44:01
Well, let me first say I can give you that reference in J-Biz, Journal of the British Interplanetary Society. It's of IAM 63, pages 82 to 89 in 2010. And the name of the paper is Advanced Space Propulsion Based on Vacuum Spacetime Metric Engineering. Thank you. Let me get back to what Larry had said.

44:30
see somebody go to the trouble of doing is just simply set up a broadband spectrometer to look at UAP and see if you get a blue shifted black body spectrum from their heat signature. I mean, one measurement would like settle it as to whether this space time metric engineering approach is in fact the technology that's being utilized. So, that's what we're going to experiment to do.

44:59
Sound like data worth acquiring. Yes. In one fell swoop, you'd say, aha, we're right. We know what they're doing. They're manipulating a spacetime metric in accordance with the rules of general relativity. MK is asking in the chat, and I do just wanna, cause I think MK lost her voice.

45:20
She just kind of some background on MK. So she's been funding a multi-year research project Through MK advisors to determine the effects of observation and intention on outcomes utilizing scientific methods applied by Hal at SRI with controlled remote viewing this so that's that's MK's background from the chat, but then separate which she had put that in the chat earlier But I think MK also wanted to say okay, so this blue shift

45:51
Why hasn't this experiment, which seems like it makes sense, everybody on this call probably wants to do it. Why has that experiment not been done? Or not to say that it hasn't, I don't know if it's been done or not, but that was MK's question. Why hasn't that been done if it hasn't? We're running into the usual problem, that is the people that are in the field aren't interested in UAP, and the people that are interested in UAP don't have the technical expertise. We just have to get these people together.

46:17
It is a point in time where the observational side on the sensing of where these are, where they're showing up. And certainly in some cases, I mean, we have another gentleman who's been active in the EED group, Ryan Graves, who's been on this podcast before, who's one of the pilots who is seeing some of these advanced craft from the, on the UAP side.

46:42
on a daily basis. So there are both entities that have long-term data on that, but then from a citizen science standpoint, there's so much with regards to sensing now that there are private organizations that have access to that type of data as well, from what I understand at this point. So it's kind of a... I think so. It's beginning to come out now.

47:05
does require resources. So anyways, that's what do we think it would, so we would need to find one of these craft that, you know, that presumably is operating in the mode where the shift occurs. So then what does this cost to do? So if, okay, a craft are showing up in this location, what is this a pretty simple thing? This sounds like it sounds to me like it's pretty simple. Is there something complicated?

47:32
Larry, sounds pretty simple. Let's get this done. For example, you can buy for this purpose, a reasonable spectrometer that can see into the near UV. You can observe things in the area where you might get a sunburn. And even if you only looked at a few lines, if you see the nitrogen line, and what's nice about this is this propagates for miles through the atmosphere. This is not like you have to be right close to it. So you don't have to be on top of the spacecraft, if you will, or the UAP craft.

48:00
when you can see it from a distance. And that means that you could potentially put these on, let's say a ship that's supporting aircraft and potentially pick that line off because that line will not light up unless there's something with sufficient wavelength, short wavelength to light up, for example, a couple of the lines in nitrogen. To give you a case in point, I had suggested this when the Russians began heading in towards Chernobyl region.

48:28
which is the exclusionary zone and in touch with my friends whose responsibility was to keep an eye on these things, to remind them that over 40 years ago, the Naval research lab had discovered that you could detect radiation, which would not normally propagate very far through the atmosphere by the excitation of the nitrogen molecules. Oh, so it's the same game. Yeah. It sounds like this is one that is, that does require.

48:56
citing a UAP, but this is something that would be very doable. And so this is a, let's get it done type thing. And so, so maybe some of the people on this call will get it done. Maybe somebody listening is going to get it done and they're going to, you can reach out to Hal, Larry, and I, and others on the call to let us know what happened. Did you validate this? Did you see something different? Uh, cause this, this feels like it's a get it done. Now on the.

49:23
On the bio side of some of this, how you and others, I know there's been quite a bit published and I'm trying to remember if it's Kit Green, if it's published by Kit or if it's published by others. I feel like it might, I'm trying to remember if it was in the book by Lakatsky or if it was in another book, some of the medical side of this, but there's certainly been quite a bit put out on the medical side. Some of that focused on Brazil, some of it other places.

49:53
but they're both documented cases that there's been damage to humans, damage to tissue. We also know a number of people who have seen these craft and have not been, from what they can tell, adversely affected at all while the craft are in operation. So, and I don't know if it's maybe, I don't know if that's inside.

50:19
the body of what is known and shareable. But do we understand why there are cases where it seems like it's safe or people are not adversely impacted? Is it a distance thing? Well, it's a distance thing and it also depends on the mode that the craft is in. I mean, if the craft is landed and not powered up, then there wouldn't be a problem necessarily. So it just depends on circumstances.

50:49
Interesting, because I mean, I've both seen advanced craft and then I know people have seen them who have not, while they're under operation, who have not experienced some of the detriments. Now that does not mean coming up within five feet of something or 20 feet of certain elements. But it is interesting to kind of get both the sense of what what those detrimental impacts are. And then obviously there are people who we know well, very solid.

51:19
people who've described really some extraordinary performing craft who don't speak to those detrimental impacts as well. If they're just seeing them in the atmosphere and they're moving around, but they might be a hundred meters away or whatever, then you wouldn't necessarily experience anything untoward. It's really getting quite close would be where the problem area was, like a few feet, say.

51:48
That's helpful. So you can be somewhat close in terms of realm of a craft. Like when you think about how far you are from an airplane, when you're not getting on it, you don't need to be within a few feet. So it's really much, it's potentially much closer range. And I've heard on the orb side, both people say that, both people come in very close contact with orbs and then others that they're further away.

52:16
I've heard both people where there's been tissue damage upon contact, and other people who have gotten pretty close and not had any issues. How do the orbs connect with all this? That's still an area that's, we haven't figured it out, other than there appear to be some connection. That appears, and that is something that appears to be a subset of the advanced energy side of all of this, oftentimes.

52:45
It's accompanied by light. It appears to be accompanied with sentient control. The sentient control as in a drone is not just random behavior. It's something that, and not to say that these are drones, but things that are behaving as if they are directed or directing themselves either way, non-randomized movement. So that's an area that

53:12
perhaps is not as tied down on the energy and the light side of things. Yeah, there's a lot of mystery there. I mean, there have been attempts to, well, let's capture a drone with a net. And so then the orb comes, it sees the net and it just bobs around it. So, I mean, these are obviously under, or you would say quality control. A fairly lengthy paper, perhaps I can call it a short text.

53:42
book written by the Russian theoretician Vyatvitslav Dyatlov, which can be publicly available. All you have to do is Google the last name D as in Delta Y A P as in Thomas L O V Dyatlov and the words in homogeneous vacuum domain. And that will get you to his paper.

54:09
And the topics such as orbs are among the many things that the hot law discusses in that paper. That paper came to our possession through one of the staff members of the United States Senate Armed Services Committee, by the way. So it does have some, but has achieved some creedings within the intelligence community. Was that Kirk's McConnell? Well, I'd rather think, Potts, share.

54:37
the name, but yet it was among that community. Well, actually, Kirk gave me permission to use his name. So, the answer is yes. And I'm sure there are others as well, because I think this, the interesting thing is there's been such widespread visibility of some of both the craft and the phenomena that, and there's also been access that how a number of the papers that you worked

55:07
on are now in terms of the DERD documents are now public. But when those were still classified or confidential, there were thousands of people that were going through that before they were FOIA'd and released. So there is also just a large number of people who have either seen things, experienced things or been eligible to.

55:32
go through any range of documents that are now public or not public. So there is definitely, I've spoken with people who have literally on their phone, it looks like dozens or hundreds of images of the orbs, which are not always easy to capture on film or for whatever reason visually. Sometimes they're easy to capture, sometimes they are not. But so Lou, what was the your...

55:58
telling us to go to a paper, but for those who are listening to the podcast while driving, or people that don't necessarily care to go into scientific papers, what are the top line bullets to the extent you remember from that paper on the orbs? Well, one of the main thrusts of his argument is to discuss what I had mentioned earlier of a coupled Maxwell heavy-thigh equations.

56:28
These are a set of equations that are very similar to the standard Maxwell's equations that every student of electrical engineering and physics and many other disciplines are taught at the undergraduate level nowadays. The fact that these Maxwell's equations are not simply a standalone edifice, but they may be coupled with another set of very similar equations

56:57
known as the Hedy-Feyd equations, which do involve a coupling between gravity fields and spin fields, tells us that there is a possibility that all four of these fields may be coupled together. And that may not be just scientific speculation, because at least one inventor by the name of Thomas Count and Brown has been experimenting with the coupling between large electric fields and gravitational fields or at least

57:27
trucked fields. And there is even some reason to believe that some of this work of Brown, Townsend Brown, may have found its way into some of the aircraft currently in service in the United States Air Force active inventory. The difference, though, is that Townsend Brown and of course Nikola Tesla were neither of the two of them particularly fond of the discipline of vector calculus.

57:57
Unfortunately, if you want to get into either Maxwell's equations or the coupled Maxwell Heaviside equations, you have to use principles derived from vector calculus in order to reduce the equations to practice and produce a set of development and design equations that practical engineers can use to develop a real product that can be put to market. And so, there is, I think, a lot of opportunity here.

58:24
to do some really great engineering and to significantly improve the state of the art in transportation, medicine, many other areas as a result of this coupling that Vyacheslav Gatlov has apparently brought to light. He also mentioned that the heavy side equations were first published prior to the year 1900. And that came as quite a shock to me, a classically trained physicist.

58:53
Though there are, I think, a lot of changes looming in the fairly short to near term. Thank you for that context, Lou. And I want to see if Phil has anything else that he wants to share with us, because I know he's going to need to jump off in about nine minutes. But didn't mean to put you on the spot, Phil, if you're good. Oh, well, thanks for asking. Now, I'll just say this has been very exciting. I love the intersection of all these different disciplines. And the work that's happening here is amazing.

59:23
The collective is not as exciting but necessary. And there's a lot of other areas of phenomena that are not well-defined, and the Standard Model is one of those. And we may be opening the doors to a good many sets of new physics that apply in ways we can't even imagine. That's it, Anna, thank you. That's great, and is there anything else that, I mean, you've already shared quite a bit in what you just shared, but...

59:47
Just as you think about entrepreneurs and innovators coming together, I mean, you've been, this group has been number of people getting together, some of them over a year, others have joined more recently, and there's been sharing of some of that data now with hundreds of other entrepreneurs and innovators, folks in government. Is there anything else that you would share with what that process is like? What's been additive, what's still missing?

01:00:17
touched on chance for a minute and that's one area that really surprised me. I had not thought of a burst of energy or basically cathode-annual methods as a way to generate gravitational waves and that was new to me. So I don't want to say that's a very myopic answer to your question, but from a broader point of view, the gaps are pretty simple. Engineering where engineering meets physics is the gap and we're collectively, I think all of us are inventing, creating opportunities for new engineering.

01:00:46
And for example, most of us are using interferometers, and interferometers have a noise floor. And because all of us need quantum level measurements and the noise floor for interferometers occurs at the quantum level, I think we're all collectively finding ways to make interferometers better. So that's just one example. And that's where we have to get better with engineering across the board. Great, Phil. And I know you're really, we have a number of people on the call with capabilities.

01:01:15
in communications, but you are certainly one of the experts in our group who's one of your primary focuses is the communication side. As you think about the potential for communications more broadly of understanding these various forces, the anomalous phenomena, the extended electrodynamics and beyond quantum communications and sensing, are there any things you would leave us with in terms of the…

01:01:43
the vision or what might be possible and some of the big questions. Yeah, the reason all these things are coupled is because communications, ultimately in EED, holistically, is certainly doing something with space-time, that is the medium. And all these things come together to not only result in communications, where the opportunities are great. We know relay satellites take way too time, too long to relay information.

01:02:11
We know that bodies occlude communication with space probes all the time. We know that we have to make adjustments to gravitational assist models because they're not working exactly right. So I think I'll just leave it at that. Everything we're doing relates to the unknowns and ultimately moving forward. I hope that we continue collaborating and sharing information because having an open door for information is key.

01:02:37
And I think that's what you've taught us, Anna, is you've taught us not to be so protective with maybe even our IP, even though you always say, hey, protect your IP. The fact that we are sharing things here today in ways and in open ways that I've really haven't seen anywhere else, I just like to tip my hat that this process needs to continue and get better. For that, Phil, we really appreciate your bringing your expertise and your leadership into the group as well. And I do think that this...

01:03:05
MK had referenced earlier some of the programs that HAL had worked on previously, which one of the things that actually initially brought us to make these ties between advanced propulsion, advanced comms, one of the things that led us back to UAPs was the potential for faster than light communications. So I don't remember what the exact question was that a number of us were exploring together.

01:03:33
But then we got back to, well, actually on the advanced communication side, we do have documented, declassified materials from, I don't remember if it was a Stargate program or some of the subsequent programs. And certainly there's many cases of this, but that ability of information to travel. So as we think about sending a huge ship, that's a lift. Sending information packets.

01:04:01
I don't want to say that they aren't both as achievable, but sending the information packets is something that there's observational data of whether the mechanism is fully understood or not that it's been done. I don't know if MK or Hal wanted to speak further to that. Well, if we really want to sort of go out on the limb on things that should be pursued, you can ask the question, why does EM propagate at the velocity of light?

01:04:31
Well, there's a series of papers by Urban, U-R-B-A-N, in which he addresses that issue and says, well, it's because the background that electromagnetic signals are propagating through is of course the vacuum that's full of its fluctuations. So we can look in the vacuum as being kind of a sea of electron positron plasma.

01:04:57
And so he did calculations and said, okay, when an EM signal goes propagating through this background, electron, positron, virtual plasma, it induces effects and it takes a certain amount of time for that effect to occur and then the wave goes further and once again it induces. And so there are reasons why C happens to have the value C. Well, that raises the issue then. Okay.

01:05:28
let's say an EED signal where I have gotten rid of electromagnetic fields, then they won't induce these intermittent steps. And so is there a possibility that some of the EED signals propagate faster than the speed of light? Well, that's a laboratory thing that needs to be pursued when you start asking such questions as why is the speed of light C

01:05:57
And that's something else. So anyway, there's a whole new research area I'd like to see somebody pick up and follow. And that's very thoughtful of you to suggest that people should pick it up. I agree with you on that side. But then I'm also remembering that there was, in terms of one of the programs that you were involved in, that, so just public data, there was...

01:06:24
the attaining of information of, I forget which planet it was, but the probe hadn't arrived yet? Well, I think you're talking about, for example, looking at eclipses of the moons of Jupiter. Detect that it was 80 light minutes away. So after 80 minutes, we can see what were the times of eclipses of the moons of Jupiter, and they're not.

01:06:51
that accurate in astrophysical books. So we had, quote, remote viewers see if they could say when the eclipses of the moons of Jupiter occurred and it appeared that they were 80 minutes in advance of the EM detections. So that raises the issue, okay, if that's the case, what could that

01:07:21
with no EM components, could it be tackions? I mean, the questions are all there laid out on the table. Just, you need to have very creative people. But that also means you have to have creative funders because these kinds of ideas are so out there that if somebody's only interested in what they're gonna be able to market in five years, they're likely not to put money into this kind of thing. So.

01:07:49
There are a whole raft of issues like that could be pursued, should be pursued, but it takes funding to pursue them. And so that's one of the reasons that I so appreciate, Anna, the kinds of activities that you engage on trying to open this up to potential funders and potential forward-thinking scientists, because that's who we need to get involved to resolve some of these issues. The issue of the speed of light actually,

01:08:18
entered into that over 400 years ago with Romer, who cited the fact that it was, everybody knew that the speed of light was infinite. And as a consequence, when you looked to where the moons were, their orbits weren't right because they hadn't taken into account the speed of light. Well, he used that to calculate a speed of light 400 years ago, and he was roundly dismissed for it, in fact, left science because of it. Oh my, I didn't know that. Interesting.

01:08:48
I think the point, I appreciate that's a great piece to share, Larry, and I appreciate that Hal's also making the call for increased activity in these spaces. And I know that there was a lot of, even on the publicly visible side in terms of just the exceptional level of depth, and it wasn't a one-time thing. The Jupiter situation was really compelling.

01:09:16
But there were so many of these cases in the remote viewing programs that you were involved in. But just this point that when we really look, at least from a United States perspective, to build out an area, it's never that we have one entity doing something, a few people in a lab. If we were one of the things that I've shared many times, and I don't know the exact number now, but...

01:09:41
Over at NSF have funded dozens of companies, for instance, in the battery space, in energy storage, have funded dozens in hydrogen. And that's just one person. So as we think about the number of clean tech companies that we have supported, the number of companies right now that are being supported in AI, and I do think that there are ties to AI, some of these things here, and certainly the consciousness side.

01:10:08
very much ties to AI and to NHI. So maybe that is something where the market has the interest on the AI and the NHI side. But this point that we really need to do a lot more. And I want to make sure that we keep Lou and Hal on to the extent that they have time along with Larry. But I'd like to give Chance and Anker an opportunity to share their work.

01:10:38
Chance, could you share a bit on your work with advanced propulsion, alcubierre drive, other areas of work? Thank you. I really have been chasing this for a little bit, but it really is all about trying to link energy and energy density to space-time curvature and to do it in a way that, in an experimental way, and to then

01:11:06
be able to consider ways that this could be used for propulsion and advanced propulsion, a la what Miguel Ocubierre first kind of cited as a way of kind of known colloquially as warp drive, but it is skating on curvatures of spacetime as a way to even suggest that you could travel beyond the speed of light.

01:11:34
because we do know that gravitational waves have the capability of moving beyond that speed. And also that, I use a good example, I often use that, if you're sitting in your car and you press accelerator, you lean backwards because of inertia. But if you instead, when you press the accelerator and all of the road moves around you,

01:12:01
would still get to a destination, but you wouldn't feel the inertial forces. So if you were able to manipulate space and time, and I do emphasize time as well, you could do something like this. Now as I began looking at it, my main goal was to understand that through Einstein's equations, energy density is a key to doing this. And then the next step was that in order to get very high energy densities and I've

01:12:29
I sought out some papers that kind of suggested certain thresholds that you needed to be at in order to observe some sort of effect. In order to increase the energy density, you could either have a lot of energy or a very small volume. And that's what I elected to do through a spark gap type of experiment. And as others have mentioned, I did utilize interferometer.

01:12:58
to determine whether or not the observations I made were indeed gravitational waves. Now I've done a lot of work to eliminate some of those factors and those other methods that might be causing the fringes in the interferometer to actually move, which is what I have observed. And the biggest thing to consider was index of refraction.

01:13:28
And I've done a couple of experiments, one using different laser wavelengths, two to use different orientations of the laser in consequence to the spark itself to see if there were changes due to those different orientations, as well as others using different gases such as helium. Yes. So, the bottom line is one that I believe that I'm...

01:13:56
generating very small gravitational waves in the laboratory. And number two, I am putting all my observations and hypotheses together in a paper that I'm about to try to publish in one of the physical review letters, as will be my first attempt. But I'm working on that now. I'm pretty excited about what I'm seeing so far.

01:14:24
I'm very encouraged by things, particularly that Phil has said in regard to his observations, as well as also the connections between electric fields, electrodynamics, and gravitation. I think we might be scratching a surface on that kind of stuff. With that, that's the main portion of some things that I've done.

01:14:49
been funded by the National Science Foundation, and we're looking to continue to build upon that work. So much for sharing that chance. I think the work that you're pursuing is really cutting to how do you achieve that ultra-fast transport, that ultra-efficient transport. So it's just really an important area of work, both that you're doing and hopefully more and more people will get active in this space. And I see both anchor.

01:15:18
and Richard are also very focused on the advanced propulsion aspects anchor. Do you like to share? Sure. Hey everyone. My name's Angkor Bhatt. I'm the founder of Hover Incorporated. I founded this company back in 2022 and I'm the CEO and CPO. My background is in electrical engineering and experimental physics, and I have a master's in a double E from UCLA. So basically the concept of the hover drive, which is what we're calling it.

01:15:47
is a propellant-less vacuum thruster. So it's kind of a quantum thruster. And I have it patented back in 2018 with Frank Becker, who actually proposed the idea to me. He actually had done some testing back in 1990 as a student, and he was trying to replicate another effect that's famous and well-known, and he thought he saw something and approached me in 2017. And I actually started a lab, and I started doing the research on it.

01:16:15
So basically, I would just describe what it is. It's pretty simple. It's a capacitor. So for people who don't know, a capacitor is just two plates, a cathode and an anode. And you get these plates really close together, and you get an extremely high voltage on them. Now, the difference is here is a lot of people have done tests with high voltage and capacitors. But we propose the idea to get these plates very close together and hyper-accelerate the electrons from the cathode, the negative side, to the anode.

01:16:44
And we would accelerate these electrons to on the order of 10 to the 23rd meters per second squared. So immense accelerations and from what I know, from what I think that hasn't been really done before, especially that immense acceleration. So we thought that, hey, perhaps that when you do this very high acceleration, this might actually do something. And the reason why we thought that is because we were both...

01:17:11
interested in Professor McCulloch's work. It's quantized inertia. It's controversial, but it's an interesting theory saying that inertia and mass is actually tied to the Rindler horizon. So the Rindler horizon is an information horizon, meaning that if you accelerate something to an extreme level, you can bring this information horizon locally and close by. So we can bring this Rindler horizon to about two millimeters. And we found that when you bring this very close by,

01:17:39
and you also have this high field with these two plates together, you can actually get a net force on this capacitor. So you can think of it as a type of quantum wind that happens between the Rindler horizon and the cathode. It's kind of this region of space. And basically we said, OK, we've got to eliminate all the artifacts and whatnot. And so in 2018, we wrote a technical paper. It's on the archive and you guys can look for it online. Hopefully the link will be on this podcast. And you can see what we did.

01:18:09
But the problem was for years we could do it once in a while, it wasn't reliable, and not till probably July of this year is when I could get it pretty reliable, almost on demand. So we were pretty excited about that. Basically the force is proportional to the current, accelerated current, divided by the distance between the plates, so the electro distance, squared. So if you can imagine, if we can get these plates very close together, we can get an immense amount of force.

01:18:36
Right now we're getting forces on the micro newtons into low millinewton range, so a small amount of force. But in theory, if we can get these plates very close together and we can scale it up, we can get into significant amount of force on the newtons range. And yeah, that's basically what we've been working on. We're pretty excited about it. I would say we're about a TRL 4, meaning we can show it into a laboratory test. And our goal is to get to TRL 9 eventually. But TRL 6 is the next.

01:19:06
next goalpost and we are an NSF SBIR phase one funded project under Anna Fradi-Estavez. And yeah, we're excited with where we're at right now and we're hoping we can keep pushing this technology forward and we're excited about it. It's exciting what you share, Ankur, and just I know at the early stage sometimes it's helpful to share both that here's what we think is readily achievable if it works out

01:19:36
will it'll be used for this. So kind of just if you can share that vision in terms of the application and then if you can go a step beyond I also want to create this space too and if this goes much better than we would commit to then what? You know what's the boldest potential with that interim kind of what are you telling potential investors that you're really aiming for in the midterm? Absolutely. So right now in the micronutrient millinewton range so

01:20:05
low thrust, it could automatically hopefully be used in satellite maneuvering in space, so orbital adjustments, things of that nature. Even right now in this region, we think that has promise there, which is already exciting, especially when you have this propellant-less propulsion, meaning no fuel, and you can power it by solar panels or whatnot. So it could have a potential infinite ISP in theory, so it could last forever in theory. So that's exciting already.

01:20:33
Now if we can get that force to newtons per kilowatt, so immense forces, we can talk about getting to interstellar travel, going to the speed of light, because this object can keep accelerating slowly and get to a high velocity. We can talk about asteroid mining, things of that nature, which is a huge market. And yeah, I mean, the possibilities are endless if we can really scale this thing up and get these immense amount of forces. So yeah, I mean, eventually if we could use it in space.

01:21:02
There's no reason why we can't use it here on earth as well. So why not use it for cars, trains, planes, anything? So it could be really exciting. The future could be exciting. So, Ankur this piece is so transformative and it is, it is a stretch that we need to build like that many orders of magnitude, like something that we should be stretching for, right? So I do like the

01:21:28
power of what you're saying. I'm kind of going back to this. If it was a question of, Anna, can you swim the English Channel? The answer is gonna be no, I don't plan to do that. If it was, can you, and are you gonna canoe from the US to Europe? The answer is I wouldn't be going. But so the difference between how far out we're gonna travel in the galaxy versus if we're going at a slow speed versus something approaching just higher speeds in general.

01:21:57
versus approaching the speed of light or going faster in the speed of light. So I do think that this steady goes acceleration piece is something that I appreciate you're bringing up and I wanted to give others the opportunity to speak up on this as well because it is an important concept that I know a number of engineers and researchers want to get there and you don't go from

01:22:24
You don't go from the horse to hypersonics without like a lot of hard, like a lot of work and plenty on getting it done. So for others that want to share some of the serious endeavors for terms of the more constant acceleration, also just want to make that space. And I certainly can affirm that there are various serious people, a number of them working on that in addition to your self-chance. I see you've come off.

01:22:49
I did want to add something and I was excited to hear what uncle was talking about. I do have a white paper, a concept on the board for interstellar probe that could get to Proxima Centauri in about seven years if you constantly accelerate for a couple of weeks and get to about 0.7C before the relativistic of...

01:23:17
effects overwhelms your electronics, but you could do something like that with a power source like some sort of radiothermal source or some other that could allow you to constantly accelerate fairly low level, but you do it for a long time and you're at those kind of speeds. So that's the kind of thing that is possible for us today if we really have this kind of technology at our fingertips.

01:23:45
And one of the colleagues with our company, Morningbird Space, one of the colleagues that worked on the first SBIR that we worked with also has a type of constant acceleration type of concept in mind as well. So it's some interesting stuff out there for sure, and it would definitely make something like this very much possible. Thank you, Chance. Hal or Lou, have you done any, have you done work on kind of some of these?

01:24:15
probably done a lot in this space, but I'm trying to remember the details. And Lou, I'm not sure, do either of you have anything you would share further on the constant acceleration or the attaining speeds that are not acknowledged terrestrially that have been attained? No, I've not pursued that other than looking at the equations in general relativity and if we can manipulate them, what could we get to? I mean,

01:24:44
there you could get beyond the speed of light once you engineer the space-time metric. But we haven't done anything like that in the lab yet. So you've been involved on the theory side of travel faster than the speed of light, and you've contributed, I think, quite a bit to that. Is there anything that you would share with regards to that theoretical work that, like you said, has not been reduced to practice yet?

01:25:12
Well, one thing I might say when we say, what is the speed of light? Well, to an engineer, it's C equals one over the square root of mu zero epsilon zero, the permittivity and permeability of the vacuum. So if you can do any engineering to reduce mu zero and epsilon zero, then one over the square root of mu zero epsilon zero gets to be a very high number.

01:25:39
And so actually aiming in that direction is looking to get you beyond the speed of light. You're actually not beyond the speed of light. It's just you re-engineered the speed of light. So, I mean, those are areas that are worth chasing if you can figure out engineering ways of getting from here to there. So those are like ideas on the table, but we haven't done any work in the lab on that. I might add to this. We gave a presentation at the American Chemical, no, the American Nuclear

01:26:09
on basically emerging prospects for space and technology. Looking at a very high ISP, just doing this quote conventionally, but using a deuterium lithium fusion reaction, you produce two alphas that are going out at about six million electron volts. And what you end up with is an ISP, which is essentially comparing the efficiency of your thrust going out to the gravity of Earth.

01:26:37
9 centers per second squared. And what that turns into is an ISP of 10 million. Conventional rockets have an ISP of about 400. And if you've got a nuclear rocket, it's about 900. And if you've got an ion drive, you can get up to about 1,000 to 20,000. So if you can get an ISP of 10 million and you can do this for a long period of time, you actually get a lot of acceleration.

01:27:06
I like non-conventional means better though. I haven't done any experimental work on it directly. However, I can report a controversial paper from the literature. There are two physicists, perhaps I should call them physicists slash engineers, one Russian, one Italian. The Russian's name is Dmitry Podkletnov and the Italian is Giovanni Modanese. They published a paper in which

01:27:34
It's a very controversial paper. I will preface this with that caution. They took a Mark generator, a Kletnoff Mark generator, which I think could generate up to a few million volts. They discharged it into a cylindrical hockey puck made of a very high-quality high-temperature superconductor, better known as YBCO, Yttrium Barium Copper Oxide.

01:28:04
and they claim that produced a gravity pulse. So we are not talking about a traditional Hertzian transverse electromagnetic wave. They believe is the different type of wave. They bought themselves a pair of, I believe, rubidium quarks, separated them by a couple of kilometers and did an experiment on a couple of mountain tops separated by a few kilometers. The pulse propagated.

01:28:32
was picked up at the receiving end, which consisted of an accelerometer, and they calculated their propagation velocity as the 64C. Now that is, as I say, a very highly controversial paper, but we are starting to see some things like that appear in the technical reference literature. It's really useful to hear, Lois.

01:29:01
in this group. And like you said, it's a broader group of people. And there's been the opportunity to interact with hundreds of leaders across government and industry in the broader group as well. But much of that group is kind of of the mind full speed ahead. So whatever is attainable, let's go get it. Let's develop this. Let's use it for the highest uses possible and for advantage, abundance, security, etc.

01:29:31
missing, right? So if we were to say, so obviously everybody has, as individuals, we all have bandwidth issues. So there's reasons that, I mean, you're all doing so many extraordinary fields of work on the research side, many of you on the theory side, and just so many other areas of business and building and outreach like this. So if we were to say full speed ahead, if you're saying, well, I haven't done the work.

01:29:59
But what are the things that would really accelerate this space? What should we do more of? I'm looking at a number of faces, I don't know, on the video that people are thinking through it. That's a big question. I mean, my answer typically is let's get more. I say if you want to do something fast or.

01:30:21
generally put more capital into it. And sometimes people have this approach, well, oh no, let's just do a little bit and test. My experience with disruptive technology, and I've funded dozens of these that have gone from zero to billion plus or multi-hundred million dollar companies, is you really need to increase your surface area if you wanna see things happen quickly. So...

01:30:48
There's a big difference between one really smart person trying something, limited resources versus robust communities of dozens of individuals and or companies trying different things, competing that ecosystem energy is just totally different thing. And from the money side, because sometimes there's so much capital that's being underutilized, it's sitting on the sidelines today.

01:31:16
So that capital could be doing so much more in terms of disruptive technologies and innovation. Many of my passion is capital formation. It's getting resources to innovators, but just at the end of the day, it's the amount of time and the amount of people that are doing this work. I mean, there's the materials, there's the infrastructure, but there's also just, we're talking about people who are feeding their families, who are paying mortgages.

01:31:45
having more of those people doing great work and not in a way that it's 10% of their time and something that they're stealing away on the weekends while they're doing their day job, but like full on with extensive collaborators and then the ability to.

01:32:03
Share information or not. Not to say that any one innovation model is the best innovation model. I say bake it off. You can try as many different structures, as many different ways of getting at acceleration. You can go meditate in a cave without materials, see if that's the way to get it done. You can go, you can have open source type collaboration, open science. You can do D-side, decentralized science.

01:32:33
DeFi, decentralized finance, you know that I'm also active on the digital asset side. Or you can have these programs where you have selected people that are working in a highly secure environment. These are all models and there are many others that I haven't mentioned, right? But a number of you are familiar with a percentage of those models, but this is something that I've heard a number of you speak about.

01:33:01
these different innovation models and the resources required. So does anybody want to speak up and share their thoughts? Well, I'd like to add something to that in support of it because doing diagnostics, falling around UAPs, trying to develop the diagnostics like the interferometers, each of these gives rise to other capabilities that somebody else can pick up on, which goes back to what you were saying. One of the classic examples is

01:33:30
and this is right up Hal's area, the laser was thought to be thermodynamically impossible. You couldn't have what's called a population inversion. And it was not that many years later that somebody looking at the spectra from Mars and realized that the Martian atmosphere is CO2 and it has a population inversion. In fact, it says that if you put some big mirrors around this planet Mars, you could have yourself a CO2 laser. Now...

01:33:58
Here's the funny part about it, which goes back to what this discussion is. If we had not invented the laser and we saw a population inversion, you can imagine scientists to say, well, that's impossible thermodynamics rules it out. It will never happen. And the question would be what would happen like to Roemer with that person just say, well, okay, I just going to go off and do something else, or would someone take that data and event the laser. So each of these things that we're doing here.

01:34:26
They give rise to something else. And unlike managers desire to say, well, you're going to have this time limit. You're going to have this product at this time, and you're going to make this discovery at this time, neither life nor science works that way. So it's patience on the part of government agencies and investors, but the return is phenomenal. And in fact, your work shows that.

01:34:49
If I can add something to what Larry just said, this is chance. I kind of wear two hats and from a company standpoint, also, I'm a professor at a university in both situations. We love money, right? Well, but you got to really ask the question, what is the money for? And if we have the ability to build teams and have people.

01:35:13
chasing after these threads that, for example, that Larry alluded to and others without fear of recompense and failure, a lot of these answers could be found. And so by being able to build teams of people with the right skill sets around these particular areas is probably the most important tool in the tool case because...

01:35:42
The equipment, yes, that's a big part of it, but being able to spend time and to go after things and try this and try that and try something else and then work with other people, as you mentioned, those are the things that accelerates ideas and turns ideas into actions and actions into technologies, in my opinion. Thank you, Chance. And I know we didn't do as much of a warm up.

01:36:11
It feels like 75 to 80% of the call is warm up, kind of, is this a thing? Here's why I think it's a thing. And so we've kind of more, we've more gone with the dive strain and approach, which I think is appropriate here, from really trying to explain how might you build things and what can you build aside from UAPs, or is this watching the most advanced craft, like watching the UAPs, reverse engineering, whatever it is.

01:36:41
Something, but the point that you're bringing up, Chance, about community is so important. And I know we're definitely gonna wanna get to Richard next, but this piece that I think so many of us can weigh in on, including Richard as well, is we've seen tremendous interest. I mean, certainly there's interest on the what are the new energy forces that are out there. That's something that's of interest.

01:37:10
The highest level of interest that we have seen from disruptive innovators, scientists, and engineers has actually been on the UAP side. So it's reached a point that, you know, and these are conversations that in some cases it's well over a hundred highly qualified, advancing the state of the art in their field, engineers and scientists who weren't, to be frank, invited into this space.

01:37:39
15, 20 years ago. And now there's that shift to people being able to add in and build things really if they're invited and if they're not invited, right? So this kind of, this ownership, this transition to this being so integrated in a significant percentage of the people that we interact with in terms of scientists, successful business people, it's a large percentage of people

01:38:08
have seen or experienced an almost phenomenon that will speak to it. That doesn't mean that they're speaking to it broadly, but in a relationship with trust, so we're not going to say everybody can share their personal story or not type thing. We're not going to share other people's stories, but we're finding that there's groups where it's 50% of people, there's 30% of people. In groups of pilots, from what we understand from Ryan Gray's, it's well over 50% of people. So this, when it's part of...

01:38:37
the broader human or innovator experience just you say, well, do I wanna build the highest performing craft or not? And there are a lot of people that wanna build the highest performing craft on the most advanced technologies. And there hasn't always been a playbook on how to do that. And increasingly we're seeing, so we've had calls where it was just extraordinary because we put it out to a broad group of innovators and then we would have every field of critical technology.

01:39:08
a hundred or so people on a call, every single field of critical technologies would be represented. We expected, okay, there's so many energy people, so many space people, we know that it would be heavy those fields. We had, I mean, those people definitely showed up and were grateful for their participation, but we had people in advanced computation, robotics, biology, advanced materials, quantum.

01:39:32
Every AI, digital asset, we have blockchain people who are engaging on this, physicists, chemists, we've really every single field of science or engineering that we've been involved in, we see people are coming forth and there's a certain percentage of people that are just intrigued. And there was previously a stigma there and there are still people, there are still going to be people in terms of investors.

01:40:00
that it's the first open conversation they've had, they're entrepreneurs, many of whom have had experiences a long time ago or recently, but there's that, we're turning the corner on the science and on the community. So, can anybody else share on that experience? Because obviously you're in so many of these conversations and these broad groups. And some of you have been doing it recently, which is important.

01:40:28
And some of you have been doing this for many years. Well, certainly on the internet, there are chat groups. And what people with are willing to talk about these kinds of ideas with the agreement that whatever is talked about in the chat group won't leave the chat group. And so I'm involved in a couple of those. And I'm sure other people here are as well. So that's something to encourage.

01:40:56
It definitely sounds like something to encourage. And then there's kind of this, so it's a blended environment. It's normal in technology, any field of technology, that there are going to be things that you keep to yourself until you... Even outside of technology, some would say we still don't know what's in Coca-Cola, right? How do you make Coca-Cola, right? Just drink billions of them and then you don't really know how it's made. Fine. But so commercially, it's normal to have the things that are held as trade secrets

01:41:26
things you share and when you share them versus when you don't. So there's always going to be that piece of what gets, if you're developing something, maybe you share it at a certain point, maybe you don't type thing. But there was that time which whether it was some of these groups are, I'm sure, still very active, but whether it was kind of the invisible college years of a number of top people coming together and building things out and experts who are known and appreciated today.

01:41:56
But some of that being, some of that's visible in terms of those experts who are engaged in this topic over time. It's possible there are others that weren't visible, but that kind of shift of people being engaged, but they're totally, it's not something that's discussed openly versus today we're on a podcast sponsored by NASA with multiple interagency participation.

01:42:23
and tremendous entrepreneurs and innovators, and this will be public, right? So what, I know you've been in this space for decades and I don't know, I don't know, Lou and Larry have been in, in other fields and perhaps this one for quite a bit of time, but what would you share in terms of just that information, sharing the vibe, the level of openness, and you've spoken in some cases about the potential. Well, I think I pretty much have said.

01:42:52
my viewpoints on this, one other area that might be worth pursuing, for example, would be if there were a traveling individual or group of individuals who would go from university to university to give talks on thinking out of the box and then giving examples. In other words, to make it seem safer.

01:43:20
to people who are just getting started in technical areas, that it's okay to push toward the edges. Because in many universities, you don't get that. It's very conservative. So I can imagine that that could be a real contribution to kind of moving things along in a bit of a faster clip. We do see that non-specific to some of these areas like UAP, we do see that

01:43:49
new disruptive technologies often get attacked from all angles. And it can be a very, I use the battery example, because of having funded so many energy storage companies, that a disruptive battery people do still say, or they used to, six, seven years ago, they used to say, well, this is never gonna work. This is about some of the more, in some cases, these are some of the more successful battery companies now. They would say, oh no, this is just.

01:44:16
Oh, there's all these reasons that this isn't going to work. So some of that, that there's not a safety net of when you're doing new and when you're doing step change better, regardless of whether it's something that you have like in your phone or in your pocket that you're using every day, you can still expect to come up against some hesitancy or disbelief on anything that's orders of magnitude better. And that's not specific to.

01:44:43
to UAP or to Advanced Energy or any of these fields, that's kind of more something that we observe across the board. Lou, I see you're kind of shaking your head and smiling. Well, with regard to the degree of conservatism and learned circles, I guess the most extreme example that popped into my head is the reaction of the power structure of the time to Giordano Bruno.

01:45:08
back to some many hundreds of years and he was actually burned at the stake for making proposals that went counter to the prevailing logic at the time. Fortunately, I think we have improved at least somewhat in that the burning at the stake occurs only verbally in election committees and this sort of thing. Nevertheless, though, it remains true that novel ideas

01:45:37
often must go through a very rocky path before they can be finally put into, shall we say high volume manufacturing and give rise to a product that becomes useful to the public at large. Yeah, Lou, I think the only difference between then and now is they just leave out the steak. All right. This is, you're making me really not excited about it. Well, let me help you out a little bit. And our professor had.

01:46:07
now in that I'm actually teaching a graduate level course this semester, and it's a special topics course, but it is for advanced space engineering. And I'm able to put some of these ideas and topics into that class and infect, and I use the word infect, some of the students' thoughts and minds on some of these things, and also help them to understand that this is not just

01:46:36
some esoteric tinfoil hat type stuff, but there's some real science behind it that you can chase. So there is, I think there is some light at the end of the tunnel in that regard. And I think if you put it together with the kind of things that we are all so used to, like Larry mentioned Maxwell's equations, but now you start to add, well, what would happen if you did this and you did that?

01:47:02
and start to put some of those ideas out there. So I do think there is some cause for some optimism in every regard. There's so many different layers here. So for instance, I often, as somebody who's been an investor and who funds, I often think from the investor at one. So I often think.

01:47:23
Well, if you're a successful investor, if you can make a portfolio deliver, like the portfolios I've worked with, they're well over 10x in terms of number of these companies in a high performing deep tech portfolio, they'll go over 200x. They might go a thousand x. And then there are others that much more modest and you average it out. Some end up doing extraordinary things. Everybody's adding to the community and the progress of science and innovation and solutions.

01:47:51
But all in all, you put a dollar in what we've seen historically as a lot more comes out. So people who have that ability to craft high performing portfolios, they can make, I would like to see more of them make moves into these areas of really extraordinary impact because they can underwrite it. They're going to be able to deliver 8X, 10X.

01:48:16
100 X right on a portfolio level. So if they go from 10 to 9, maybe they could actually there's a probability weighted average that maybe they're going well beyond 20 X or 100 X on portfolio and just the medical value, the environmental value, the exploratory abilities, the human capabilities. There's so much that's possible. But on you brought up, so I think about the investor side and I'd love to have other people chime in on the investor side. But as we think about

01:48:46
the professor side, the academic side, I mean, you shared some examples, Chance, as we think about the individual entrepreneurs versus the community of entrepreneurs, as we think about the different, if others want to speak in to what government can do, what are some of the ways to really get actionable on moving from, well, people don't talk about things that are different from what is evolutionary.

01:49:15
we're going to take on things that are several orders of magnitude beyond what has been acknowledged to be achieved and controlled. So how do we bridge that gap? It might be that the introduction of UAP is a way to force it because once you acknowledge that UAP exists, regardless of whether they're from out of town or not, you have at the start national security issues. But you then, as Lou has been pointing out,

01:49:43
There's a lot of issues here that if we can resolve these as chance and Hal point to that these are enormous technologies of use to the planet. So if you get someone scared that either a it's a national security issue or B I'm an investor in one area, and if this impacts me, I had to be looking at it real closely, this may be a way to bridge that gap between what they feel and what they're willing to do.

01:50:10
I see both MK and Remus, I want to also make space for them. But this point about who holds it and who's active, right? So we just see there's a percentage of people who are just curious and they might be curious, but the ones that are builders, they want to build. And like we said, the engineers and scientists from all these different fields, they're coming in.

01:50:37
And sometimes when I've been in different inter-agencies, so outside of this field of technology, which people have been so active, so supportive, so energetic, the folks that we've engaged, so we actually had an inter-agency meeting that discussed UAPs, had over, probably had, it had over 120 participants, three hours, public and referenceable was how we framed it. Many of you were on it.

01:51:03
And probably about half of those were government folks, half of them were entrepreneurs. And there's certainly many more entrepreneurs that were invited, but there are people that showed up on short notice. So this kind of, but when I think about other areas of innovation from both the government sense and in the market sense, so outside of UAPs, oftentimes different entities have different impetus, they have different mission, they have different mandates.

01:51:29
So the impetus for why they move forward and the level of responsibility. So the responsibility of entities that are focused on science or exploration, there might be some overlap with those in health or defense or like all these areas or economic growth. But you think about when you have these different pushes forward, along with the constraints various organizations have, there are gonna be different places where

01:51:58
different actors have the impetus to move forward and the responsibility to move forward, that upside downside calculus, I've seen in other fields of technology can be very different across different actors in the government and inside an ecosystem in the private sector. So sometimes the speed ahead can actually be faster when you see more of those participants coming forward. Great.

01:52:25
Interagency participant that we have here, Rima's got her hand up from DOE. Rima, what would you share? I was just gonna say that, kind of going back to the earlier point about how the government's role is really ideal for de-risking technology, but we can't de-risk technology if we don't lean in on new technology and innovation. And so going back to my earlier point, this is why I think that feedback loop between...

01:52:52
basic science and applied research and commercialization really needs to be there. Meaning that we can't, we have historically as a federal government done our work such that it was, it followed a linear process, right? From basic science to, to apply to commercialization. But here we're being inspired by things that are already maybe being applied, right? And so now we have to back engineer. I mean, that's what, that's been the bulk of the conversation today is, I don't know, how do we back engineer into something?

01:53:22
And I don't think that's the way we've operated generally in the government, right? It's been more basic science leads into applied and now we're doing the reverse. And that makes people uncomfortable. And that's okay. We just have to acknowledge that maybe there's a paradigm shift that's needed. And that's essentially what we're trying to do here is kind of going along the lines of what you all have been talking about, which is having this vision about what the end state is and then back engineering into it. And that...

01:53:51
kind of requires us as federal investors to do things very differently. So I applaud you, Anna, on everything that you've done because you've really leaned in and we have a lot to learn from here. So thank you. That's kind of you to say, Rima. I really applaud your leadership in this area and just would also wanna acknowledge we have so many tremendous, so just as context, we kind of invited, this is coming after the holidays. So we had a few of the presenters who are building things.

01:54:20
we had invited kind of right before the holiday, which was a week ago. And then in the broader group, some of our government colleagues, I just sent out the invite really within a day. So we also wanna, so you're amazing in terms of how active you've been in the space across all these advanced fields, the advanced energy, the anomalous phenomena, the UAP, so many fields of space economy. But also I wanna acknowledge we have many other colleagues that couldn't get in on this fast a turn.

01:54:50
But who are really there, like inquisitive folks at Department of Health and Human Services, NASA, so many parts of DOD, SBA, NSF, really so many people across the interagency are and we've got folks that we engage with frequently who have worked at DARPA in the past and who are in the Army, we've got Navy, Air Force, so many great people who are eager.

01:55:18
to really expand what's possible. And I'm very grateful to have you here today. We should also, I'm seeing some things in the chat. I'm seeing Diane, did you wanna get something in here? Yeah, absolutely. I love this discussion, Anna, thank you. And really as one of those folks on the enterprise side of the equation who have actually as an innovator and an operator, I was in kind of

01:55:46
in the camp of some of those folks that generated those thousand plus returns on new model deployments. And really that was only possible because we were able to bring together an ecosystem of folks that were aligned in vision and effort. And everybody had their own kind of motivation for how they engaged with those, those work streams and opportunities. And, and they derived.

01:56:14
the benefits that they were looking for, but it was the ability to kind of approach to these collaborations with an open mind for what is possible and to help others achieve maybe non-traditional benefits and bring in non-traditional kind of means of collaboration that really made those exponential gains possible. And I think that's what I'm seeing here. And if we...

01:56:43
To Rima's point, if we imagine what's possible and kind of work our way back into new systems of collaboration, then we can perhaps find ourselves in very non-traditional kind of operating relationships to get those really exponential outcomes. The UAP is just a really nice archetype, just the category of UAP gives us

01:57:10
a new vision for what is possible. We don't necessarily need to understand everything about it. We just need to understand that some of the general principles of the way we have perceived the world may no longer be completely true or may need some re-imagination, which is really why we're all here. That's where we get to massive unlock. So this is, I think, this is the right conversation to have and we just need to expand it. Yeah, I know it's a...

01:57:38
continuing ongoing conversation. And I wanna make sure that we bring in Richard, who's really got some exceptional work in this space and exceptional levels of experience. So Richard, just grateful for whatever you're able to share today. Thank you, Anna. Oh, and sorry. And then the other thing is Chance didn't introduce himself. Chance is Chance Glenn from Morning Bird Space.

01:58:03
So that's who Chance is. And then Richard Bandura from Field Propulsion Technologies. So Richard. So I'm CEO of Field Propulsion Technologies. My background is electrical engineering and mathematics. And 40 years ago, I was involved in a company, the partner owner that used to do reverse engineering. And one of the things that came out of there is some of the NGOs that were trying to reverse engineer advanced technologies that think us to look at some of the stuff they had.

01:58:33
That got me really curious because this stuff was definitely way more advanced than we actually have. So one of the things that ended up is I ended up getting pulled into classified programs. And there, one of the things I wanted to look at was to see if the U S government actually was using these technologies. And it turned out that my conclusion was the U S government was not. So from there, I ended up working in a number of different companies. I had a project with DARPA for a while.

01:59:00
And what we were trying to do was some of the things we observed that you could have longitudinal forces inside of composite conductors. And these composite conductors weren't actually conductors. They were something in between a conductor and an insulator, and they were usually a very complex structure. And some of the things that we explored was if we had very small particles that were very closely spaced and we had an accelerated charge that would go from particle to particle, we could generate an external force or a very large force.

01:59:29
And that was like real similar to what NCAR is working on. He's seeing the same effect when they accelerate charges, a very short distance, they can generate an external force. Our application that we pitched to the NSF that we worked with Hanna was that we could probably use these forces for propulsion. And where in our case, we're not using a, say a large capacitor disk, we are using very small nanoparticles.

01:59:56
And then we have the charges accelerate inside the particles and then tunnel to the next particle. And then so Anna, we're under phase two right now. Now some of these other materials that we'd looked at, some of the other strange properties that they have is real similar to what Hal's doing. It's even had some of these materials that were built similarly and you had them set up instead of being a long thin antenna, you could put them into a cylinder. So all of a sudden now for the ends of the antenna.

02:00:24
Now you have a significant amount of area. And in electromagnetics, what they do is they have something called the gauges. And when the electromagnetics, what they say is there's no radiation coming out of the ends of an antenna. So in our case, we're pretty sure because some of the experiments that we had done in some of the places I've been, I'd actually seen what we call electroscaler radiation, which is similar to what PAL is working on, HALR is working on a type of radiation that has no fields.

02:00:51
But in our case, we're pretty sure that what comes out of the ends of an antenna, instead of being absolutely nothing or just being potentials, if you were to have an antenna of the right length, you could actually see an electric field associated with these potentials. So at that point, instead of using an electromagnetic squid to detect these potentials, now you could probably follow this one potential using an electric field meter. And that came out of work that some of the stuff that we observed when I was working with these NGOs,

02:01:21
is near some of these craft electronics would always shut down. And some of the measurements we had done, it indicated there wasn't an electric field associated with these types of radiation. And that's where my work has basically gone to today. We've talked to the air course and we think we could probably replicate these types of effects. And some of the things that comes out of this is that we really do have some kind of radiation coming out of the ends of an antenna, which would be a longitudinal radiation.

02:01:48
And having an electric field and an oscillating scalar potential also implies there might be another field out there that we can't measure right now. And one of the things that the air forces wanted us to do was to see if we could try to measure this other field. And this other field is kind of similar to what Chance is observing with some of his effects. It's worse, we assume that this field will do things like put a pressure on something or like take a some other device that's measuring say

02:02:17
a diffraction pattern and be able to move it a little bit. So a lot of our research is really confirming what everybody else seems to be working on here. And for the NSF, our real objective is to be able to take these new metamaterials and try to generate an external force. And internally right now, when we are able to apply a DC current to these materials and we're observing these accelerated charges in these nanocomponents, we can see pretty large forces inside these materials. We're using relatively low currents.

02:02:46
And a lot of these materials have somewhat of a high impedance. So they do take high voltages. So this is really where a lot of our work's been going on. Oh, and then some of the things with Larry, some of the places I've been, there are organizations, these NGOs did get a lot of that data that you were looking for. But when I looked at the data, I didn't see anything like a nitrogen. So the ones that I worked with were trying to figure out how these rather large craft, which would people call triangles.

02:03:14
would be able to disappear on a dime. So when we were set up looking at these triangles, when they decloaked, and they recloaked, we didn't see anything like that. What we really saw was it appeared to be that these triangles were taking whatever was an example of whatever was behind them and actually project projecting it in front of them, which might be equivalent to taking the light rays and bending it around the actual triangle. Um,

02:03:41
And so our conclusion, they were doing something along those lines. They were probably doing it with a lot less energy. But some of the conditions we observed them on was a lot of times where they were observing behind them would be a little different than what we would be observing. So what they would do is we would assume would be projecting what's behind them in front of them, but it really wouldn't be quite what we would be seeing. And then we had an idea that we could probably track these triangles because

02:04:07
their cloak or whatever they're using to bend the light around them was never going to be exactly the same. So some of that work that I was doing with NGOs was really exciting. But one of the other things that comes out of this is these individuals or whoever this group is that has this advanced technology probably does not want us to reverse and share what they're working on. So they're probably making, using their methods or their technologies to try to keep us from doing

02:04:35
things like reverse engineering or exploring how they work. Just because of the fact that gives them an advantage over us. So a lot of my work really comes out of the work I do with NGOs. And I think we are on the cusp of actually developing new technologies because I think we're all here on this group. We're all working all on kind of the same direction to where I think within five or 10 years, a couple of us, or hopefully us.

02:05:00
We'll have new technologies out here that will change the world. And I think propulsion is one of them. I think we're really on the cusp of actually being able to develop all this propulsion. Richard, so many exciting things that you bring up and I'm just grateful for what you've shared already. And you've already shared quite a bit and eager to hear more where it's shareable and understand where it might not be shareable. But I guess we've kind of talked about.

02:05:27
If you talk about motives or you bring up the point of, well, maybe the owners of this technology, whoever they be, don't want this scene. And so that's definitely a view of that's possible. Another view is this feels a lot like controlled technology release. It's like, you just like all these amazing engineers and scientists and business people keep seeing this stuff and they...

02:05:53
But it shows you, wow, like how brought up on another podcast, the bending of light or even the orb light behavior is just, it's different from how we expect some of these. You've seen similar things that are that behaves differently. So it's almost like a show and tell of like, wow. And then you present this technology or this phenomenon and see how can these

02:06:17
Can you figure it out as an individual, as a group of scientific peers? So I kind of feel like there's a lot of this that is being made visible by whoever is making it visible. And certainly humans are sharing the information more than they had been. So there's a range of possibilities. It's also possible that some want to share, some don't want to share. That's definitely something we see from humans. So if there's off planet, then it's possible there's a diversity there as well.

02:06:46
But you spoke of so many really interesting things and you spoke about reverse engineering these technologies with NGOs. The reverse engineering programs, some things definitely been coming out from a number of sources and it has been for years, but just now more recently those congressional testimonies, multiple congressional hearings where people are saying under oath.

02:07:11
that they've been involved in formal reverse engineering programs, and I don't mean by NGOs. It's a time when certain elements of these things are definitely being discussed more. So I'd shared with us kind of some of his what's on the left-hand side of the page. So in terms of what we should be looking at, that maybe entities say, we want you to see this or we don't want you to see this. But the things that engineers and business people and physicists need to know, kind of that.

02:07:40
low level strangeness, high level strangeness, what's on that side that's shareable on the left-handed sheet of paper and respected there are things that maybe you can share, maybe you can't, but is there anything you would add to what Hal shared? And you shared the cloaking, which Hal's also spoken to cloaking research in another podcast, but are there others that you would share? No, so I'm kind of limited, but you know, one thing I did notice is looking at some

02:08:09
They were smart materials. Like one of the things is when these materials, you'd be looking at them and you try and reverse engineer them, that they would turn to dust and then so, and he would do it within a minute or two. And then, so you could take the dust and then set it off and get the isotropic analysis done on them. And they did, they were extraterrestrial, but these materials, I mean, we're looking at something that's hundreds of years ahead of us, when you look under a microscope or an electron microscope, you're looking at something that's

02:08:37
composed of very small particles that seem to be communicating with one another. So those are the things that I've been involved in that we can talk about, but I think that's one of the reasons why extraterrestrial materials are not really available to most people is because most of them are set to disintegrate if they get in the wrong hand. That's really interesting what you shared. So the smart materials that then turn to dust within a minute or two.

02:09:06
I've heard from a number of people who have spoken to how material is terrestrial versus extraterrestrial. I've heard people share a variety of ways that you can tell that. But Richard, are you able to speak to how it was extraterrestrial versus terrestrial origin? No. Well, the isotropic analysis of the dust that's left behind tells you it's extraterrestrial, at least where it was manufactured. But...

02:09:32
So we're looking at materials that can reconfigure themselves. There are almost small subunits. So the type of things I looked at were something as small as a sliver of metal. The head would reconfigure itself depending on where it was. We'd cloak itself and it would try to blend into the environment. So the ones that this one NGO used to get hold of were the ones that were technically broken, I guess, the ones that didn't really function very well. So then you could collect them every once in a while and then try to analyze them.

02:10:00
You could do things like split them apart. They would attempt to find each other or reconfigure. Some of the experiments they did was we took one of those and we put it on a very hot surface of about 3000 degrees. And what it would do is it cool the surface around itself. And then when we took the device off and then waited again, we would find that the mass would be reduced by a certain amount. So these are really curious types of materials.

02:10:26
So that's how we could kind of tell they were extra terrestrial because these things weren't like decades ahead of us. They were probably hundreds of years ahead of us. Yeah. We found that they were layered alloys at the micron levels and none of our technologists, even in the big aerospace corporations could make these layers bond together. So just by their physical construction.

02:10:56
we could tell it was way beyond anything that could have been manufactured in our ordinary technology here on Earth. Yeah, that's what I saw too. You were looking at the outside of a craft or materials that came from a crashed spacecraft or something? Yes. Yeah, so we were looking at very little things. They seemed to deposit all over the world. We were investigating there's probably trillions of these things that are deposited, and they have all sorts of functions, which really kind of implies that maybe this group is actually manipulating

02:11:26
our species. But you can still acquire those. You know where to look for them. We know how to find them. Well, if you find a hat full of them, why don't you send them our way and we'll take a look at them. Yeah, that's it. So the group I used to work with, I don't talk with anymore because they got upset at me for talking. So, but I have an idea where someone could get them.

02:11:49
Sounds like we've got, how it sounds like we've got some sources in the chat. So I think we've got a number. I don't want to call out the person who's telling us sourcing, but I think we do have, I guess what you're saying, Richard is they are, they're ubiquitous, right? And so there's a variety of sources in terms of where to get these. Yeah. No, we were assuming that they're everywhere, right? Even the ones that would work, we would never be able to find because they would cloak themselves or reconfigure themselves to be something, but not all of them are functional, right?

02:12:19
Oh, as Diane is saying in the chat, there's a nice list of experiments and potential collaboration. So I think one of the things that, so for the listeners, we appreciate your participation with us and your patience as we bring together all these extraordinary people who we've had the benefit of discussing with.

02:12:45
And I think there is very much the question of how do, as builders and engineers and physicists, how do we have the conversations that help people move forward, really develop new things. And I appreciate this point of when you say, Richard, okay, this is hundreds of years beyond where we are today. And from the timestamp of today, I can see how it might feel like it's hundreds of years beyond.

02:13:14
the extraordinary levels of what's been achieved in the last hundred years, in the last 10 years, it's just who would have ever thought 200 years ago we'd be where we are today, or 20 years ago? There are a lot of things that have happened in the past 20 years. So my question is, how do we pull this into 20 years? How do we pull this into 10 years? And I believe there are ways that, I just feel like we are not hitting the gas on so many lovers with disruptive animation right now.

02:13:42
It's almost in many areas of disruptive innovation. It's like, oh, this is disruptive. Okay. Like keep that package outside. We don't want to pull that in. Don't talk about it. Don't fund it. Don't share it. There hasn't been information shared in some of these areas. So I'm hopeful that there are new ways of moving forward that might enable us. Maybe there's AI, there's quantum. There's so many generations of people working together right now. There's so much energy, interdisciplinary convergence energy, even just.

02:14:11
Even as the fact that we pull people together on a Zoom, that's not something we would have done, or a teams, that's not something we would have done before that pandemic, which in some ways is so horrible, it's made collaboration so much easier, you know, in terms of getting people on around, you know, the country and around the world. So a lot of interesting things going on. MK has had some very interesting, and she has lost her voice, so she's got some very interesting points in the chat. So...

02:14:38
referring everybody to a documentary, which I'm not familiar with, I don't think, called The Program, which speaks to the topic of reverse engineering, as well as recent events in CONUS. She's asking about, she wants to ask Richard about programmed materials. Do these feel like programmed materials to you, Richard?

02:15:04
these subunits probably were pretty, had computational functionality, right? Because they knew what their neighbors were all about and they knew they could reprogram themselves to be something different, right? If they needed to change themselves. Thank you. And then the other question that MK had, so it's like, MK, you have us asking all your tough questions for you. You're saying, have we created a de-closking device, which is coming out soon? And I know, I know we've had others speak to the research in cloaking.

02:15:33
But does anybody know the shareable state of the art with cloaking? I know that's an active area. Yes, the key word is cloaking at what frequency? In other words, there is one set of technologies that will cloak a vessel at radar frequencies. There is a whole different set of technologies required to cloak something at optical frequencies.

02:16:02
So you have to define what frequency you're talking about. That would be probably the very first parameter to contemplate before really getting into how do we design the meta material, et cetera, et cetera. So, Lou, thanks for sharing that. And I mean, obviously we've gone through a number of really interesting areas in this call. And I think that the way this group comes together is we've really looked to, and have in the group.

02:16:30
such as yourself, some of the leaders nationally, internationally, in the theory of the end up and how. Many of you on this call, and obviously Lee, who's been in the group, Lee Hively, I know Larry, you're working to advance the theory. So many have made contributions that there's leaders on the theoretical side who are also active in building in many cases. So many, like in almost all cases, I mean, there's probably some that are not building.

02:16:59
but I know how you're building things in your company. I know Lou and Larry, you're also building things. I can't speak to all of these activities, but so there's leaders on the theory who are also in many cases leaders in the practice. Then there are so many entrepreneurs and innovators, Richard, Anchor, Phil, Chance, so many people who are

02:17:25
actually building things, right? That the primary focus is, as Richard, whether it's reverse engineering, as Richard said, creating de novo, there's so many builders. So we've got this mix, but it's always, so back to Rima's point on the multi-speed, I always think about it, it used to be, as Rima was pointing out, it used to be fundamental, and then you get to translation applications later.

02:17:52
What I'm seeing and what we're trying to support more broadly is, well, if you're going as fast as you possibly can, it's all in parallel. And there's that interplay between the fundamental, the applied, the curiosity-driven. It's all back and forth, very dynamic. But from somebody, my focus has been on the application side and the solution side. And there's so many solutions. And we've also had...

02:18:20
People using directed energy for removal of viruses. We have a company that has a publicly visible abstract on that inactivation of viruses. EPROS, that's a very successful company. I mean, they really have been more focused on counter drone, but they've also have an NSF project that was focused on using directed energy for health benefits. So there's...

02:18:44
We said that there's health detriments on some of the waves and phenomena and energetic interplay, if you want to call it energy or forces. There's also potential for biological benefit on some of these controls of various forces or even existing earthly energy sources. We've got the advanced communications, like we're saying, go through ice, go through occluding bodies, don't get blocked. The potential of

02:19:14
Can you achieve faster than light? Or was Hal saying, can you accelerate the speed of light? Whether that's for information and comms or whether it is actually for travel of craft, right? We've heard, we know people who have seen these craft move very fast, Ryan speaks to it. We've also seen, we've also have others in the group who have seen them flash in. So that implies a different, one of us has video of it, right?

02:19:43
So I've seen craft of whatever origin flash in, so kind of a different type of transport. So this ultra fast, ultra efficient, and Ryan speaks to it as, well, wow, we had basically hours, many hours of energy storage. I don't want to call it energy storage, but when you think about something that rather than having a return, it's expected energetic burn after an hour.

02:20:12
They're spending, they're out there all day. They're out there as long as they want to be out there. So there's so many of these fields of value that whether it's health, whether it's communication, whether it's energy, and I know Larry will, is gonna mention Sunny and Charles' work as well. But before we go into Sunny and Charles' work in the group, we talk about enhancements to fusion to make that more efficient.

02:20:38
But what other, we talk about directional force, right? And how, and what that means for propellant was propulsion, gravity, anti-gravity, we call it directional force. You, others, they're working on gravitic control or control of different forces. I'm sure I've missed many things, but it's kind of value solution, helpful, needed, better, modification of time in some of these forces. What...

02:21:07
are some of these valuable things that maybe we haven't touched upon. It's okay if you don't have it. Did you want me to address it? Yeah, please, Larry. Oh yeah. Okay. The way I begin this is by essentially thinking you're sitting next to a fast flowing stream, you can dip your fingers in, you can feel the water moving, but there's clearly energy associated with it. You can't harness it until you invent a paddle wheel.

02:21:34
And so there is what's called zero point energy, which gets a lot of poopa, except that the Lamb shift, which describes energy in electron shells of hydrogen is in fact attributed to zero point energy. Another one is known as the Casimir force, which is if you take two metal plates and put them very close together, the closer they are, the energy pushing them towards each other goes up by the distance of the fourth power. Now this is kind of self-limiting because at some point

02:22:03
the radiation around them and in them can just go right through the plates. But what's important is these are two sources of energy that various people, including Sunny White on Casimir and Charles Chase over at UnLab are trying to tap into and build devices that can do it. Sunny is looking at generating electrical power from this that would just run forever as a forever battery tapping into the zero point energy of wherever the device happens to sit.

02:22:32
Charles, on the other hand, is looking at this as a means to provide propellant-less propulsion. And it may even be that some of these apply to some of the other devices that Richard and Chase have talked about. But the real point is there is now effects that we recognize as real, that we are now getting to the point of moving from science to technology. Now whether we can scale it, that's always the question.

02:22:58
Both, just to add to what you're saying, you've gone into some of the technical specifics quite well. So, Sunny White, also previously funded by DARPA, released some very interesting work on the work bubble. So that's kind of more on the fundamental research side of the house. And then we funded both Sunny and Charles over at the NSF. And Sunny, I know, won a number of awards while he was over at NASA.

02:23:28
The Snoopy Award that's a really big deal and others. So that's Sonny White who's very active in the group. And Charles Chase has really had such an extraordinary career. And they've both been very active in supporting disruptive innovation and bringing and supporting larger group with innovators and entrepreneurs. And Charles did some of that with a, I think it was an advanced propulsion course or seminar over at MIT. He was-

02:23:57
Notably, Charles also spent many years working in one of the leadership roles over at Lockheed Martin Skunk Works. And I know Hal knows him from some of those days. Like some of the early funding for my vector scaler potential stuff was with a contract with Skunk Works that Charles oversaw as part of his moonshot program. Which is great. So just some additional context.

02:24:25
on these other leaders in the group who are also forwarding all this. And Hal, what better person to have on a zero point energy call than dear Dr. Hal Putoff, who you kind of wrote a number of the seminal areas of that. So yeah, I investigated it from the standpoint of is there a way for us to get some technology out of it that actually runs something?

02:24:55
So we published a number of papers looking at it from different standpoints. And one of my colleagues, Bernie Haish, took all the ideas and even patented it. But he's having trouble getting funding to actually do the work. So he's one of the people who at least has an approach that we recommended that might actually lead to tapping the zero-point energy. But he's stuck at this point not having the funding.

02:25:24
So when did you, I mean, cause you've been, I mean, I know, I started reading some of your work in this area more recently, but I mean, I know people that I'm close with who were following your work in Zero Point Energy, probably these are people that were very young in the nineties, right? So they were to say that they were following it, probably your work broadly. And I think the Zero Point Energy work in the nineties, I suspect you were active well earlier than that.

02:25:54
when did you first get active in the zero point energy field in the 80s? So what would you share? I mean, and obviously these publications came out at different points in time. So if you were to kind of walk us through zero point energy then versus now, what would you share? Well, where I started was, and I started with a very simple case, and that is the hydrogen atom. You've got the electrons zipping around the proton.

02:26:24
And so any undergraduate kid in a science class would say, well, it's accelerating, why doesn't it radiate its energy away? And the usual answer is, well, it's quantum mechanics, don't worry about it. But I, since I was interested in the zero point energy idea, I thought, okay, well, maybe in fact it does radiate its energy away, but it also has the opportunity to absorb energy from the vacuum fluctuations from the zero point energy.

02:26:53
So I just worked out the mathematics of it and lo and behold, it turned out that there was a balance for one orbit and that is the known ground state orbit in the hydrogen atom. So eventually I wrote another paper where I showed that basically all quantum ground states are sustained by radiating energy away but absorbing at a compensating amount from the underlying zero point energy fluctuations.

02:27:23
So it's really a fundamental kind of thing. I mean, somebody pulled the vacuum fluctuations zero point energy away, the whole universe just claps down to nothing. So I mean, this is really a very fundamental thing. So then secondly, okay, well, what other effects are caused by it? Well, of course, the Casimir effect is a major one. And I've developed work showing that you could come up with a model for the electron.

02:27:51
based on its interaction with the zero point energy. And so, I mean, one of the things that has been a puzzle is, well, the electron is said to be a point particle, but why doesn't its Coulomb field then cause it to have an enormous mass associated with that energy? Well, it turns out if you take into account the vacuum fluctuation energy, which is a negative potential in that situation, they balance out. So just solving little...

02:28:21
pieces as I went along. But the main thing of course was to try to figure out something to get the energy out. And of course the Casimir effect shows that energy can be extracted from the zero point energy fields. It's only that in the case of the plates and the Casimir effect that's great you get you a puff of energy but if you're pulling apart to do it again you've got to put in as much energy as you got out so you got to find some other way.

02:28:49
So we looked at some plasma potential aspects. Those are now being pursued in a number of labs around that are taking that to be their critical thing. So when we talk about the UAP having all this energy seemingly not running out and running all day, well, that's one potential source of energy that could well be likely the source. So it's a case of trying to figure out,

02:29:19
mechanics and the structures that would let us pull out that energy. So that's an ongoing area that a number of different labs, Modell at University of Colorado is pursuing something. He thinks he's made a little bit of progress in showing little amounts of energy that seems to come out at a useful rate, very minuscule. So anyway, that field is moving ahead with other people.

02:29:48
We even did a model for, well, maybe that's where gravity and inertia comes from. So the experience that was brought up earlier about, well, you're in your car and it suddenly takes off and you push back in your seat. What's pushing your back? Well, it turns out that we figured out that, okay, you're accelerating through the vacuum fluctuations and they're putting a force on you. So there's a relationship between inertia and vacuum fluctuations.

02:30:18
So it's, we tried to work out a model to have gravity and inertia, a hundred percent coming out of actin fluctuations. We got some good publications out of it, but there are some sticking points that we didn't resolve. So it's not a completed piece of work. But anyway, that's the kind of thing that once you get onto an idea like that, and you start looking at all the potential places that could be applied, every, a lot of things pop up and come to mind. So.

02:30:46
That's the kind of experience I had pursuing the vacuum fluctuations. We gave up in our lab trying to come up with ways of, we just, we couldn't think of a good system for doing that. But other people are carrying that work on, so we may get there. That's really exciting to hear about. And it's obviously, I mean, you've worked with tremendous people throughout the years and currently.

02:31:13
And then one of the things that really made us want to bring together this group of people, which is a broader group of people than those assembled on a call in the EED group, and certainly in other groups that people are active in, was just kind of this experience that there were these amazing people that were trying these really divergent approaches. I mean, there's kind of...

02:31:39
There's information sharing, there's things that come on a peer review or non-reviewed type publication, but just really the value of bringing a mix of really extraordinary people with exceptional expertise who are trying different things in a different way. So one of the reasons that we kind of kept trying to build bringing new people, new expertise into this group was I was kind of thinking, I always just viewed it as, wow, it's like

02:32:07
being an amazing artist somewhere versus you're part of the Impressionist movement or like I said digital assets there was like the Satoshi Nakamoto the 50 people that initially got that so kind of that the building of these communities where you go from extraordinary individuals and teams.

02:32:29
to just that ability to really continue to iterate. And obviously the work that you did, like you said, your lab decided to move forward in some other directions as opposed to that particular one, but that it's really carried on, that other people are trying to get it done. So I guess just, if I know we've, it's always an extraordinary conversation. I think that there's gonna be opportunity to continue.

02:32:55
to share and build the discussion. Obviously, this is public, unshareable, it'll be recorded, everybody can share it with whoever it's useful to. But is there anything that anybody wants to, I mean, so first of all, just wanna take a timeout and say, Hal, you're one of the leaders in Zero Point Energy, so we've got so many technical experts on the call. So if anybody wants to ask you a question or pull more of that Zero Point Energy out.

02:33:24
certainly want to make space for that, rather than not giving you the zero point energy question that is, so many good ones. Reema, did you move? I covered all that I can. You covered it beautifully. And I know that we know where you are, so we'll know where to follow up on all that. But certainly that whole field, very exciting in terms of the transformative potential to the extent that we get to control over such energetic access.

02:33:54
and zero point energy. So everybody, thank you so much for your time. We've got a little bit more time to close this out properly, but just I want to invite anybody who has them to share any closing comments and their thoughts, whether it's on extended electrodynamics, quantum energy, zero point energy, disruptive innovation that is so different from the state of the art, whether it's building communities like

02:34:22
Increasing resources, decreasing stigma, acceleration, going fast. Whatever you're excited about or whatever you think is missing. I just want to offer anybody the opportunity to close out and then we'll have Diane fully close us out. One thing I might offer and it's a little weird. I mean, the two major areas that I did a lot of work in, one being the remote viewing that we did for CIA and DIA and one being the UAP.

02:34:52
These are both areas that had lots of stigma and your ordinary scientists would turn up his nose if you brought up ESP or UFOs. But as it turns out, in the secure community where they recognize that these were areas of major potential concern from a security standpoint, as it turns out, it's the deep

02:35:22
programs that actually drove the initial research in both of these areas. So that's something to think about. So you want to read, if you find an area that has stigma, you'll probably find an area that behind it, there's a black program reason for it to be thought of more seriously. So I would say we, we should not let stigma be.

02:35:52
an issue in pursuing advanced ideas because you can be sure that if there's stigma associated with it, some of that stigma might be being generated on purpose. That's very helpful. Yeah, and I think what we're seeing, I wonder sometimes if the stigma is just, do I have the ability to do my job and do the work, right? Because what we're seeing now is that the...

02:36:18
This is the highest level of interest that we've seen with scientists and entrepreneurs. There's no topic out of the, I've covered every topic in the critical technologies list, a couple of them lighter than others, but I've worked with, in most cases, lots of entrepreneurs on each of these areas. One of the list is 14 critical technologies, the other one, the list is longer. But this is the thing people are most interested in. Now that doesn't mean that they think

02:36:46
they can get money to do it, right? So that's the difference. Whereas I think if people said, no, we'll support you and we'll respect you for trying to advance the state of the art in these fields, we see people showing up. Now, what we do see, some people have a tentativeness based on they're just not sure that the market's gonna like it, whether the market is bosses, whether the market is money agencies, whatever it is, but.

02:37:14
when there's that openness, we see people, I think, right now. I mean, others might speak out on that. I mean, what would others say in terms of the levels of interest that you've seen in this? Because, Lou, you look like you're about to say something. Yes, actually. I wanted to react to something that Hal had said earlier, particularly with regard to the ground quantum state of, let's say, a hydrogen atom.

02:37:43
and the implications that may have for zero-point energy. The argument, I think, can be made that the proton and the electron in a single hydrogen atom have to spend a lot of time very close together, specifically about half an angstrom close together. And the argument can also be made as a result of that close proximity. The two can be said to have developed

02:38:13
some degree of phase coherence in what we would call their quantum wave functions. Now, as it turns out, a number of the methods for achieving what we used to call cold fusion rely upon similar kinds of ways to get particles to get atoms to be quite close together, even if only for brief periods of time.

02:38:42
For example, the model that my colleague and I have been developing for what we call parametric pumping of systems to get nuclei close together for a brief period and to build up large amplitudes of molecular vibrations in order to achieve this close separation between nuclei may be capable of being exported to cover a wider volume.

02:39:11
of atoms so that perhaps if quantum coherence can be achieved among the nuclear wave functions for a collection of atoms that could involve trillions of them, perhaps that might make it easier to extract energy from the zero point. So I think Hal's suggestion has a lot of merit, and I see that leading to some significant energy technologies.

02:39:41
So much flow, that's amazing. Really appreciate you getting into the technical depth there. Do others wanna add in? I'm seeing Richard Anchor, Larry, I'm seeing Rima, I'm seeing MK, who I know we would have to read through on the chat if she wanted to add in, but did anybody else wanna share anything further? MK brought up the fact that this film is coming out called The Program by James Fox.

02:40:09
So that, I think, is going to be launched in December. There was an advanced showing of it at the Seoul conference at Stanford that took place last week. So where a number of senators and congressmen and technical people and whistleblowers are all presenting their viewpoints. So I think it's going to be a dynamite presentation that your average person on the street will really be surprised to see.

02:40:40
how much is going on. Great, do we know the release date of that? I heard it was in mid-December. Cause we have more space technologies events coming up in mid-December, so I'm wondering if that'll be before or after that, but very exciting time. So we'll look forward to both that and really just in general, all the great things people are sharing in this space and seeing that fresh energy.

02:41:07
of both participants who have made this a multi-year or multi-decade part of their career, and then people that haven't been here who are infusing their expertise and their energy. We like to get involved in things that are about to be huge and tremendously impactful. I feel like this is a big moment where there's a lot that's going to come very quickly. How quick is quick? I don't usually get...

02:41:35
heavily active in something 10 years before it happens. So it's probably not too far off. It sounds like it might be December, it might be soon. So did others have anything to share? Larry, did you want to add anything? Nope. I think we covered a lot of ground and I really appreciate all of the participants adding onto this. These EED meetings have taken on a much larger life now that we've actually got a record of one of them. Thank you. That's right.

02:42:05
Well, really appreciate everybody and Diane, thank you so much for hosting us. And would you like to share anything closing? Yeah, absolutely. I just like to echo the gratitude here. Just wow. Many thanks, Anna, for convening and orchestrating this conversation. And Hal and Larry, thank you for co-hosting this as well.

02:42:31
To our guests, amazing. Thank you for joining us today and for the work that you're leading. And also many thanks as always to the NASA Convergent Aeronautics Solutions Project, who have sponsored this series. And to our listeners for joining in. This is just honestly another great example of the deep and brilliant work that's being led within and across.

02:42:57
synergistic ecosystems and this is exactly why we're trying to drive conversation, collaboration and community in order to advance more beneficial ecosystem and ecosystemic futures. So for our listeners, if you've enjoyed this and would like to stay connected, please subscribe and let us know what you think at all of your favorite podcast sources and as always at Shoshamworks.com. Thanks everyone.