Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
OK, we need to discuss this whole 'Shoggoth can't shoot' thing.

Blinkks09/28/2019
Ok so, looking at the power document, do you see how that is the case as written?

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
There's the long version and the short version.
The short version: Limiting a broad class of actions, such as holding a weapon, is the kind of thing that needs to be explicit. It's a flaw, a drawback in the power like the secret weakspot. It'd be like you forgetting to mention the Always On downside to the required transformations and  butting in a fight to say 'oh, you should actually have a -2 on that'. It's a significant enough detail that you have no excuse for plead ambiguity. By not stating the Shoggoth's limbs did not have the capability to hold a gun, or any other weapon, I'm free to interpret that absence of information very broadly.

Blinkks09/28/2019
I’m not saying it’s ambiguous I’m saying it’s very clear
I don’t know what rules previous servers you’ve been on have had but in Grand Haven we make it the number 1 rule to ask about any and all unclear or ambiguous aspects of the power. Things are genned by people who write in English, which means extremely often things will have to be clarified, hence our rule. Does that make sense?
However, the issue here is not that the power is unclear, it’s that you assumed something despite what the power said.

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
Let me get this straight: You always meant to have the Shoggoth be unable to shoot. You didn't think explicitly saying the shoggoth didn't have hands was needed. I did not ask whether the shoggoth had hands. Ergo, I am at fault.

Blinkks09/28/2019


I don’t see anything written about firearms in the shoggoth section

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
The shoggoth section also says it has limited movement. If it said that and only that, would I be out of line in saying it had a movement of six? No. But because it says it has a max movement of five, I'd be breaking the rules if I made that extra square of movement.
At best, a lack of any detail in the shoggoth section concerning ranged combat means I don't get those three pips.
But you didn't put anything. So that's not my problem.

Blinkks09/28/2019
If you’re getting upset about this I recommend you take a short break and we can continue discussing another time

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
Nah, this ain't me being upset. I don't mind having to shut the fight down to  hammer this out. I don't mind having to come back and fix something because of an ambiguity. But you coming out in public and telling me I am at fault for not heeding a significant mechanical flaw that was never communicated? That leaves me disappointed in you.

Blinkks09/28/2019
Well I’m sorry if I bothered you but that’s common practice on this server
Nobody thinks less of you for it, everyone’s had it happen before
People make mistakes all the time, but being upset with your genner for pointing it out and trying to iron out uncertainties isn’t gonna help anything
Let’s return to your logic on the ranged combat
Does the human also have limited movement?
By your understanding

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
I'm very sorry to hear there's what, I don't think I'm out of line for saying, regular and significant levels of miscommunication between staff and players. If your approach to these discussions will always carry the inherent burden of proof and consequences on myself alone, then I don't find that to be in the spirit of cooperation and accountability.

Blinkks09/28/2019
There’s absolutely significant levels of miscommunication between staff and players, it’s a part of the game that people struggle with, but we’ve come to mostly accept and work our best with. If you aren’t comfortable with the way this server works then you’re more than welcome to suggest improvements

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
Depending on how much further this goes and if I have opportunities to talk with other Genners and GMs, I would gladly submit my findings and suggestions for the staff to evaluate.

Blinkks09/28/2019
The reality is that we’re a server that accommodates English speaking people from all over the world with any level of fluency. Miscommunication or misunderstanding is inevitable.
Sure, if you think you’re better off being run by someone else, feel free
I’m not trying to be the enemy here so I’m sorry if it feels that way

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
I'd very much prefer to not be having this conversation either. I'd rather be discussing what to actually change the sheet to in order to reflect what direction things are taken. But it's like diplomacy: If both parties don't have common and fair agreement on who has what responsibility and what terms mean, then there's no chance of any talks being productive and we're just worse off.

Blinkks09/28/2019
I completely agree, the problem is that you’re assuming a set of rules with regards to that responsibility that are not correct. I’m trying to inform you of what the rules are here in Grand Haven but I’m not sure I’m being understood

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
Let me just ask you these two questions: Is the outright inability to use an entire class of skills considered a flaw? Not the capital f Flaw, but a main  fundamental function of the power that's a negative impact to the character. And is it common for such hard and far-reaching flaws to be explicitly written in the power description or left implicit?

Blinkks09/28/2019
In order:
1) No
2) Depends on the power
There are very many capes on this server who are locked into using only melee attacks or using only ranged attacks
Ignoring basic weaponry of course
Let me ask a question of my own: Have you noticed the Errata tab on your character sheet and are you familiar with its purpose?

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
Yes, I am aware of the Errata tab, It's for recording player questions and GM answers to any questions about anything concerning the character. Flaws, powers, perks, etc.

Blinkks09/28/2019
The errata tab exists because we believe it’s so important it deserves its own tab on the character sheet template that everyone uses. Asking your gm questions and recording the responses for future use or to fill in the gaps is so core to our experience here that if it’s not done, then yes, it’s the players fault
The player is accountable for making sure everything they’re doing is kosher, the gm is accountable for deciding what kosher is

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
So there exist characters who are unable to use melee or ranged weapons or skills without it being an illegal move. And their players are unaware of this unless they correctly interpret the genner's remarks. While I obviously haven't had experience with Grand Haven for long, but I hope you can understand how such a... state of affairs is not the norm or even acceptable to many gaming circles on or offline. I'm not disputing the need for errata or that I need to communicate with you to resolve issues. Rather, that the magnitude of this situation should not be considered a part of the 'core' of 'player is automatically blamed and genner is never at fault'.

Quite simply Blinkks, I have only a few ways I can view such a system. Either that such inability to maintain fundamental standards by the staff absolves the player of all but deliberate foul play, that your statement of this being commonplace is a gross misrepresentation, or you withheld key information as a test of character. I know the latter's false, I sincerely hope the middle is the case, and the former I know would be unacceptable to you.

Blinkks09/28/2019
You’re still basing your entire point off the assumption that the shoggoth being unable to shoot is unclear
Aside, I’m not saying that the player is automatically blamed and the genner is never at fault, what I’m saying is that the player is responsible for making sure what they’re doing is within their character’s abilities
If you feel like you’re the only person who has to put up with these weird rules and expectations I’m putting on you, you’re free to discuss your concerns with other players and get their input. Everyone else seems to manage just fine.

Always Late To The Party09/28/2019
I think we've gotten to the point of full-circle in this discussion. I had sincerely hoped we'd be able to come to a solution without any claims of absolution. Obviously I made a mistake by doing an illegal move and doing so for almost a month now. But like I hinted at before, if having an unwritten flaw or one never disclosed is considered acceptable then working with such a system, whether you as a person or GH's staff as a whole, is rather difficult to have an equal conversation with. And I'm quite familiar enough with internet staff effects to know the difference between "getting by" and "getting by when under observation".

Blinkks09/28/2019
Alright let me tackle this piece wise.
1) I’m not everywhere always, it happens that I was browsing through channels while you were fighting today and spotted the mistake.
2) The shoggoth being unable to shoot is very clear. I can run you through how it is that way again if you’d like. Since you seem to be keen on logical argument, this one is very logically clear.
3) you’re more than welcome to talk to the other players privately in their pms, obviously being respectful of the fact that you’re sliding into their pms.

Blinkks09/28/2019
Ping me if you have more you’d like to discuss or clarify. Obviously you can’t continue to use the character until we’ve worked through this and some other misassumptions

Blinkks10/06/2019
@Always Late To The Party please see the above.

Always Late To The Party10/06/2019
Right, so you are owed a 'final statement', and it should've been given sooner. For that I do apologize. But my silence has been me choosing the option I think will ultimately work out better for you, me, and everyone else. Because we've both made our positions very clear on this, your last comment made it clear it was time for one of three things: Submission, Escalation, or Denouement. I don't think it will come as a surprise what route I've taken.

Neither of us are backing down. Escalation on my part to try and overturn you I considered carefully and found lacking. With no formal mechanism or culture, I'd be making polls and conducting interviews for a considerable amount of time just to make a long shot gamble. That the higher GMs would see that my outlook is not an isolated personal opinion. Even the result of such an agreement is nebulous.

So the best option available to me was clear: Walk away from the table. The timing of the Lambs de-facto disbanding and the Skaven cluster demanding I do chargen just made it even more convenient. So in short: I've washed my hands of all this, and we're both moving on. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Blinkks10/06/2019
Have fun :)  I hope you have better luck communicating with your next gm