Ridtom vs Ame judgement

Okay, to preface: Rid, you **really** need to cut down on the length of your scans. Judges have multiple rounds to get through, and it can take several hours to do this if the scans are (in some cases) over 6 pages in length. I understand that what you're doing here is lumping in context and consistency into one source (ex. "here are all the times an Endbringer is commented on as being super durable"), but this isn't necessary. Unless your opponent is going to press antifeats, just 2 or so examples are needed at most, and I don't need to several paragraphs to get the gist.

As it is, opening a scan and seeing my scroll bar shift to a quarter its original length doesn't like, tell me I'm about to see a juicy feat, it tells me to just skim it and close the tab. Even if "judges are lazy" wasn't a stereotype, this still would still risk people forgetting arguments and growing dismissive towards what may be important points just on account of the cognitive load being put down.

Furthermore, the whole "including tons and tons of scaling-context" thing is skirting the rules. Ame isn't able to just go "Spider-Man punched Rhino, which is good" and then have the link just be a full compilation of Rhino's durability feats followed by Spider-Man punching him. There aren't strict rules here or anything, of course. If someone said "Orion armwrestles Superman, who lifts cars consistently" and then linked "lifts cars" to an album of like 250 images of Superman lifting cars, I would think this is pretty funny. But this isn't something you should be doing with nearly every scan to demonstrate a point as foundational as "Does my character have piercing".

To give a concrete example, if you want to say "Love has good speed", and this relies on scaling, you need to format it as "Love is fast, being able to keep up with X [link] who is as fast as a plane [second link]". You can't just say "Love keeps up with fast people all the time" and then link an album of every time Love fights a fast guy. While this saves characters, it's not fair to your opponent, nor is it fun to read.

***ANYWAYS.***

As Ame puts in his R2, this fight seems to come down to the following contentions:

1) Lost having claws that can hurt Miles
2) Lost being fast enough to dodge Miles (I will also addend Ame's statement to include "Lost can run faster than Miles")
3) Lost being able to absorb or otherwise "deal with" Miles' electricity
4) Lost being able to sense Miles and Gordon with her emotion powers
5) Lost being able to impact Miles and Gordon with the aforementioned emotion powers

I agree with Ame's assessment here and I thought it was a good idea for him to post this. I think this accounting is basically unbiased, helps center the debate, and makes it clear what he's arguing. Since Rid doesn't really contest this line-up (and since I was basically picturing the debate this way anyways), I'm going to talk about the fight through this lens.

On 1), I buy that Love's claws are able to hurt Miles. I don't know if I buy the Endbringer scaling (if they all have their own "personal touch", is it not possible her "personal touch" is just doing damage through a different vector?), but I think that the demonstrated capability against mechs and forcefields is "good enough".

That said, Ame's A1.1 section like, more or less just demonstrates as an obvious point that Miles is much, much stronger than Love. He describes Miles as being able to one-shot her, and I think this is basically a given. As far as I'm aware, Rid doesn't even really contest this point. I also do think that webbing is a big issue, even if Love can burn it off. How long does this take? What's stopping Miles from applying more? Can't he just run up and KO her while it's burning away? I don't think this is like throwing a bucket of water at the Human Torch, the theoretical capability to burn off restraints doesn't mean that it's no longer an issue.

On 2), I again buy that Love is comparable in speed to Miles. I'm not really able to comprehend the scan where she's supposed to be running at 100+ miles an hour (again, ***this is a problem***), but Ame doesn't really contest it, and scanning through it a couple times it *seems* to say she's keeping up with an 80-100+ mile an hour flier with "run augmenting tech", so I'll buy it. I'll also buy, for example, that she can "blitz soldiers" (this scan is much easier to read) and that she can jump around big swords and do mid-air parkour and stuff.

Conversely, I don't know how fast Miles can run. Ame links a scan where he's supposed to be catching up to a plane in takeoff, but I know neither how much the plane had moved (it's not like they go from 0 to 60 quickly), and it also seems that the scan literally shows Miles failing to catch it (even with webbing being added to his vector of motion). I think the "does a bunch of flips and is super fluid" scans speak for themselves, and are basically the exact same "kind" of feat as is Love's "big angel sword" thing.

> To get a bit meta, here, Rid: you can't just insinuate your opponent is OOT in the round lol. If you want to push Miles as being OOT, then you have to make an OOT. It doesn't matter if Ame doesn't address the bullet dodging, if he's not bringing it up he doesn't gotta.

> Furthermore (and this is a general rhetorical problem), I feel like you push back much less than you could. Just opening scans, I feel like I'm seeing Miles be hit, dodged, floored, failing to KO, etc. etc., basically every second link, and yet none of this comes up in the round. If Ame's win condition is "I'm a lot stronger and faster than you", it's remiss to not even sorta argue about this.

In any case, yes. I think Miles is probably similar in combat speed to Love, but slower in travel. I think his combat speed is functionally higher, though, on account of his spider-sense.

On 3)... eh, I don't really buy Rid's argument here. I can maybe see Love dealing with a ranged "zap", since her suit appears to draw electricity towards its nodes, but I didn't see anything suggesting she has a kind of force field around her that would absorb electrically amped punches or Miles' sword. I think the argument that Miles' electricity *is* bio-energy is good (and in fact I'd thought of this before reading it), but just demonstrating that they're the same "kind" of energy doesn't really address the general mechanism. It "feels different" to absorb a light construct vs absorb light, you know.

4 and 5, I feel, are basically the same point, and so I'm going to lump them together. When it comes to Love's emotional manipulation, I think Miles is obviously going to be affected. Even before Rid pointed it out, I had already taken note of the fact that the "vibranium regulator" scan was being misrepresented. Miles isn't in an emotional resistance suit, Miles is roid raging and the suit keeps him from killing random people lol. He is, if anything, exceptionally vulnerable to this power. That Ame is arguing repeatedly that he'll use a bunch of electricity (which the same scan notes will make him more aggressive) does not help this.

> I would also note on this topic, that Rid misses another opportunity to argue that Miles "using a bigger blast" would just kill him even if it also killed Love.

As far as "sensory ranges" go, I again think that Love has the advantage in this. Rid doesn't really... quantify this range as much as they just kinda say "it's good enough", but the fact she can use this on people several buildings over is definitionally better than "some guys in the adjacent room" or "a guy in the same room but hiding near the roof". The blind spot needing to be expanded to increase her range is an issue, but I don't see what's stopping her from just like, turning her head back and forth lol.

With this all in mind, I ***very slightly*** lean towards Rid. In particular, I think Ame kind of shoots himself in the foot by declaring immediately that Miles will leave his VIP behind, which essentially just leaves Gordon out in the open whilst Miles goes and searches for Love and Love goes searching for Gordon. Rid brings this up explicitly in their "How Love Wins" section, and Ame doesn't really counter this except to argue again that Miles would win in a physical confrontation.

This is, to be clear, something I lean towards agreeing with. I think Love having 10 foot long extending claws is really scary and dangerous as a speed mitigating factor, and I'm not really sure their speed is that far apart to begin with, but I also wasn't half as convinced that Love could one-shot Miles as I was that Miles could one-shot Love. Love also doesn't have a great answer for webbing (another thing Rid could've made characterization/speed arguments on), and it's probable that his invisibility (another thing that- you get the idea) would slow Love's reactions enough to enact this condition.

The problem is just that I don't really know if like, they will fight each other, or if Miles would be in a good condition when this happened. Love's mines seem like an obvious issue, and they're going to compound as problems the more Miles has to search through the arena. Love's emotion manipulation is also liable to stun Miles, throw him off his game, and make him essentially suicidal with his use of electricity (a problem pointed out in the comic).

Again, though, I think the primary issue here is just strategy. Love seems more able to find Gordon than vice versa, and Gordon has no defense when or if that happens.