<Tim_the_Hero>	Okay, I have to know, what was that argument with you and Cirno about, earlier?
	<Sister_Acacia>	Basically he feels that the Gaming Den is Autism Central. We argued, he pointed out a hilarious oversight in the dumb 4E class Frank made, I pointed out "As opposed to the Warlock, that has to curse itself", he refused to use logic (apparently this is situation normal for him?)
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Okay. I will stop you here. Why does the Warlock need to curse itself?
	<Sister_Acacia>	So when his options were limited to "Show where my logic is wrong", "Use it to come to a different conclusion", or "Admit you're wrong", he chose "Make ad hominem attacks". So I banned him until he'd learn to debate properly (ie until someone else went "Oh, he's banned! Hahaha I'll unban")
	<Sister_Acacia>	And then Aeros sided with him like an eleven foot penis
	<Sister_Acacia>	Okay. The curse must be used on "the nearest enemy". An enemy is "any creature that isn't an ally". "You are not your own ally".
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Bu-okay, Aeros is a dumb dick, but that was still an abuse of mod powers, and I'm really unsure where you're getting that Warlocks need to curse themselves
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Actually that's been clarified
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Besides obvious common sense, you count as neither an ally nor an enemy
	<Tim_the_Hero>	the reason being that otherwise Artificers would be more like god-tier Strikers, and Warlords could supercharge their own attacks
	<Tim_the_Hero>	This is one of those things that doesn't seem like it would need clarification because it's blatantly obvious
	<Sister_Acacia>	The rulebook doesn't say that. The rulebook has "Allies" and "Enemies". The fact that everyone with so much as half a brain will ignore that is besides the point - the book, as written, says to curse yourself.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Allies and enemies are terms used to divide up other people
	<Tim_the_Hero>	The book only says that if you ignore those categories, when in fact there is a third category used throughout the book. "You"
	<Sister_Acacia>	And going "Hurf hurf that class is dumb because you can't use your ability (uses an Immediate action, triggered when you hit someone)" is exactly the same as going "Hurf hurf, you have to curse your allies."
	<Tim_the_Hero>	What
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I literally...that last post has zero context, slow down Ace
	<Sister_Acacia>	That's what sparked the argument
	<Sister_Acacia>	He felt a point in favour of "You are all autists at the Den" was "Frank made this class for 4E, that doesn't work because the power never triggers." I pointed out that that is only as legitimate as saying Warlocks have to curse themselves.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	The Baneguard, by RAW, doesn't work, if that's the class he's referring to. It was laughably bad.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I don't know if it applies to anyone being autistic.
	<Sister_Acacia>	It doesn't work by RAW, but does work by "everyone fucking knows how it's supposed to work". "Warlocks have to curse themselves" is only less valid a complaint if you are still licking Mearls' semen off your lips
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Ace, what was that you said about ad hominems earlier?
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I mean, and a blowjob joke, really?
	<Sister_Acacia>	I decided that if that's how Aeros rolls, clearly that's how all of sup/tg/ works. It's not a place for debate, just insults. This is his word.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I was referring to the Baneguard being broken, requiring a lot of reinterpretation for its abilities to function, and the insane MAD, plus working outside the normal game format (it has an ability to insta-recruit NPCs0
	<Tim_the_Hero>	)
	<Sister_Acacia>	A lot of the abilities are really poorly written and bizarre. I would be tempted to think Frank didn't pay attention. Or read the rules.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I don't really keep track of Interrupts, but if it needs significant reinterpretation to work, "Warlocks have to curse themselves" is absolutely a less valid complaint, because it only functions if you ignore the basic rules.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Well, that's his fault for being autistic
	<Sister_Acacia>	But Cirno was specifically talking about that trigger
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Ace, there is no way I'm going to somehow convince you that a place you enjoy going to is terrible, even if I agree with Cirno that it is
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Any attempt to do so would be an hour or so of arguing and insults and trolling, all for utterly pointless returns
	<Sister_Acacia>	And I'm never going to convince either of you that swallowing gallon upon gallon of Mearls' man juice is bad for you.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I just wanted to know what the debate was about and, while the Baneguard is pretty blatantly a broken class (Cirno expressed it really inarticulately, grognards.txt was meaner but frankly dead-on accurate) and poorly designed, the simple fact is that we can't MAKE people play good editions
	<Tim_the_Hero>	We just have to hope, deep down, someday you'll be playing a Fighter and a Wizard will totally invalidate you, while the Cleric invalidates you at your own shtick, and on that day, 4e will be there, waiting.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Wait, lemme rephrase that
	<Sister_Acacia>	I don't play shitty classes, so that's not happening
	<Sister_Acacia>	And given you managed to kill the game enough that fucking White Wolf is back on its feet, I don't think you're qualified to talk about making play good editions
	<Tim_the_Hero>	We just have to hope, deep down, someday when you're playing a Fighter and a Wizard totally invalidates you, while the Cleric invalidates you at your own shtick, you look over and decide to try a game for roleplayers rather than System Masteryfags, 4e will be there, waiting.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	there
	<Tim_the_Hero>	>admitting it's a shitty class
	<Sister_Acacia>	>implying 4E doesn't require you to master the system so as to scrape every minor +1 together just to stay on the RNG
	<Tim_the_Hero>	>oh look Tim can play a 4e Fighter and have fun forever
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Do you have 18 in your attack stat? Weapon Expertise? You're good forever
	<Sister_Acacia>	And a baby can have fun playing in its own shit, what does that have to do with things?
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Basically 3.5 is for babies
	<Tim_the_Hero>	...also trust me, babies hate their own shit
	<Tim_the_Hero>	they throw screaming fits until you change them
	<Tim_the_Hero>	and then poop AGAIN while you're doing it and it's horrible
	<Sister_Acacia>	Wake me up when 4.5 lets people change the landscape, create their own worlds, interact in non-killing ways with the NPCs and make lasting illusions bigger than a bed.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	My Changeling Wizard/Warlock Nightmare Master Planeshaper would have words with you
	<Sister_Acacia>	Basically, don't make everyone as small in the pants as a fighter and then go "And if you fight harpies with bows, you all lose, don't worry, I'll coddle you", make them all as good as the Wizard.
	<Sister_Acacia>	I very much doubt it
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Oh look at this Diplomacy skill that more characters finally have the resources to invest in
	<Tim_the_Hero>	and Bards and Warlocks with their mind-melting magic
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Well who'da thunk
	<Sister_Acacia>	Warlocks ever had mind-melting magic? I remember a Utility (Daily, IIRC) that gives them a bonus on Intimidate checks. Is that the one you mean?
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Wasn't the harpies with bows thing basically laughed off because it relied entirely on bad math and a misunderstanding of how they work?
	<Sister_Acacia>	Nope
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I'm curious, how did fighting harpies with bows work for non-mages in 3.5 again?
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Oh wait. it didn't
	<Tim_the_Hero>	:3
	<Sister_Acacia>	It was "It would be unfair to use them, because that would be a TPK in ANY GAME" from the 4E defender
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Yeah, no. Walk under some fucking trees.
	<Sister_Acacia>	In 3E, it's still low-enough level that the fighter can grab a bow and go "man, this halves my damage output but I still hit more often than not". And the REAL CLASSES just cast a spell and bam.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	The solution I heard involved someone's Swordmage basically teleporting up and throwing them down to the Monk
	<Tim_the_Hero>	or the spellcaster knocking them down for the Fighter to chop up
	<Tim_the_Hero>	There were a bunch of different ways to kill them that in 3.5 would have been reduced to "either have your own archer or a spellcaster solo the fight"
	<Tim_the_Hero>	The difference being that the 4e methods used teamwork
	<Tim_the_Hero>	The fact that you're defending the huge class disparity makes it honestly hard to take you seriously
	<Sister_Acacia>	I don't defend it, it's just easy to go "Warning: these classes suck, don't play them" and move on having fun
	<Tim_the_Hero>	yeah, but what if I want to play a warrior?
	<Tim_the_Hero>	It's a valid fantasy archetype, why NOT play the edition that makes it available?
	<Sister_Acacia>	Then either A) Use a homebrew thing (it doesn't have to ne the Tomes), or B) Play a Cleric
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Or I could just play 4e
	<Sister_Acacia>	It makes it available at the expense of everything else
	<Tim_the_Hero>	and be exactly what I wanted to play
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Expense of what? Spells breaking the game? A ludicrous world of magocratic paranoia?
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Save or Dies everywhere?
	<Sister_Acacia>	Fights taking less time than it takes to prepare and eat a three course meal, spells and effects that do interesting things to the world, a ruleset that gives you non-combat ways to interact with people other than asking the MC if you are allowed to
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I've played both editions and Pathfinder, fights took about the same time in all of them
	<Sister_Acacia>	I recommend you get your watch fixed
	<Tim_the_Hero>	...heavily stretching for 3.5 once the casters got some more spells to choose from
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Big boss fights were slightly harder to cheese in 4e, so they took a little longer, 2e's boss fights tended to end quickly
	<Tim_the_Hero>	a 3.5 fight against a caster was always a long, grueling, boring affair for everyone, especially the guy dispelling his protections
	<Sister_Acacia>	My game (tabletop) had amazement when something took two rounds (and ten minutes realtime).
	<Sister_Acacia>	That was the longest.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I'm sure the unicorns and fairies populating it were very impressed
	<Tim_the_Hero>	The only thing worth keeping about 3.5 was making the books look like MYSTIC TOMES
	<Tim_the_Hero>	because no matter what Purple says MYSTIC TOMES are neat
	<Sister_Acacia>	Now you're just confusing me
	<Tim_the_Hero>	basically, haha, no, maybe with caster cheese
	<Sister_Acacia>	No really, it was easy. Three PCs, one is a heavy-hitter with a bear, and gives enemies the option to either attack him on their turn or suffer "plenty" of damage on his next turn. Another flasks the fuck out of enemies. And there's an iaijutsu master ("I hit? Cool, I turn it into a crit") gaining some spellcasting ability.
	<Sister_Acacia>	Sure, most of them have some spellcasting on the side, but they're quick about it, and generally they use non-magic violence to end the fights.
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Sounds like relatively low-level combat, they were spellcasters, fighting non-magical enemies
<Tim_the_Hero>	And given that it was two rounds, probably showcasing the flaws in the CR system where enemies either wipe you out nigh-instantly or are an easy win, one of several points at which that happens
	<Sister_Acacia>	Currently at level 10. As I said, casting on the side - Grease here, the flasks are Fire Trapped, the samurai is now able to bust out Save-or-Stun attacks... and sometimes they fight big monsters that they can gang-bash, other times they use multiple attacks to wipe out groups of weaker foes.
	<Sister_Acacia>	And yet they still get challenged, occasionally having someone taken out of the fight for a few rounds (so, "for the fight") or taking enough damage that they go "Wow, lucky we killed it so quick, another round and I'd be gone!"
	<Tim_the_Hero>	This is hard to argue because it's anecdotal evidence, but from the sound of it, see above about the flaws in the CR system, in a few levels all the fights will be four times as long :V
	<Sister_Acacia>	I very much doubt that
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I'd be a bad person if I didn't give you the chance to see
	<Sister_Acacia>	Well tell you what. I'll make a deal/wager.
	<Sister_Acacia>	If it turns out as you say?
	<Sister_Acacia>	I'll let you back into mainchat
	<Tim_the_Hero>	Abusing mod powers is for losers.
	* Tim_the_Hero	puts on his shades
	* Tim_the_Hero	rides his motorbike away
	<Tim_the_Hero>	And given that it was two rounds, probably showcasing the flaws in the CR system where enemies either wipe you out nigh-instantly or are an easy win, one of several points at which that happens
	<Sister_Acacia>	Currently at level 10. As I said, casting on the side - Grease here, the flasks are Fire Trapped, the samurai is now able to bust out Save-or-Stun attacks... and sometimes they fight big monsters that they can gang-bash, other times they use multiple attacks to wipe out groups of weaker foes.
	<Sister_Acacia>	And yet they still get challenged, occasionally having someone taken out of the fight for a few rounds (so, "for the fight") or taking enough damage that they go "Wow, lucky we killed it so quick, another round and I'd be gone!"
	<Tim_the_Hero>	This is hard to argue because it's anecdotal evidence, but from the sound of it, see above about the flaws in the CR system, in a few levels all the fights will be four times as long :V
	<Sister_Acacia>	I very much doubt that
	<Tim_the_Hero>	I'd be a bad person if I didn't give you the chance to see