Duck Hunt/Charizard Discussion Logs

    bananagram - Today at 5:41 PM
hey, does anyone have notes from the Charizard JMU?
    Perris06 - Today at 8:14 PM
We're doing a Charizard JMU at the end of the week so notes for that will be pouring in soon
Maybe @Dawangthang has some insight
    bananagram - Today at 8:15 PM
I'm pretty sure it's just a crew battle
since we did a JMU a long time ago
    Perris06 - Today at 8:15 PM
oh well yea
    bananagram - Today at 8:39 PM
it was done before I was part of the Zard chat, so I didn't get anything from it, and neither did most of the people there now so I want to make a description of the matchup
    Perris06 - Today at 8:42 PM
From my experience Zard does most of his damage up close and when we're off stage
flamethrower to cut us off the ledge and then Dair us
get in when you can
side b can connect to gunman and hit us behind it
You should be able to fair away can
as well as flamethrower
you're a big body so most of the time we're just going to run away and capitalizing on our setups
    bananagram - Today at 8:55 PM
so basically neutral is Charizard trying to get through your wall of projectiles and aerials, avoiding your setups, and trying to pressure you but not fall into a bait?
    Perris06 - Today at 8:56 PM
Yes
    bananagram - Today at 8:56 PM
I wonder what the best way to get through projectiles is, since I know how they basically function but don't know how they combine and what holes there are in them(edited)
    Perris06 - Today at 8:56 PM
I haven't played this mu that often but if you're patient and throw out the right moves, you should be set
Clay pigeon is laggy as hell
    bananagram - Today at 8:56 PM
fair/ftilt to hit the can(edited)
clay pidgeon is hard to punish when it hits a shield, but I can see a shorthop airdodge or roll through it to punish the ending lag if I'm close enough
ima watch a game to see them
    Perris06 - Today at 9:01 PM
Yea, it takes a minute to get down the punishes
You will also struggle to get off the ledge
Get us in the air and keep us there
    Dawangthang - Today at 9:01 PM
You need to have your edge guarding down too
    bananagram - Today at 9:02 PM
get advantage state and keep it for as long as possible
    Perris06 - Today at 9:02 PM
Yes capitalize, but don't over commit
    bananagram - Today at 9:02 PM
neutral worries me though, since projectiles are scary
    Perris06 - Today at 9:02 PM
Yea
    bananagram - Today at 9:02 PM
what are some common traps you set up?
    Perris06 - Today at 9:03 PM
But patiently approach and use the proper moves to combat them
There are too many
Not to be that low tier main
But like, there are so many traps and setups for every style of duck hunt
But I'm passive aggressive so I'm playing around your options
I'll set up a can so I can get a grab and toss u into it
To get the grab I play the hot and cold game, gunman to see if you choose a defensive option and then I'll punish accordingly and take note of the options you like(edited)
If I get a grab I'll capitalize and or get you off stage to set up for a bair can
If I connect a gunman I want an aerial follow up or grab at low percents
If the can connects close, I'm looking for an aerial follow up
Can traps and setups are staple for most duck hunts so watch how the duck hunt uses the can in neutral
Will they just use it offensively? Will they leave it on the stage to control territory? Will it be a trap for you to stay in shield or retreat to the air? Etc
    bananagram - Today at 9:08 PM
so if a can is behind me and you're in front, you'll try to aerial or throw me into the can?
    Perris06 - Today at 9:09 PM
Yea
Or I'll just wait and see if you roll/ retreat to the air
Then punish and see if I can hit you into it
Something like that
And if it's a bair can then the can can tick back to you in the opposite direction
    bananagram - Today at 9:11 PM
hm, would our best option be to hit the can away?
then we could play without that worrying me, but you would also have the can, which could disrupt pressure
    Perris06 - Today at 9:13 PM
You mean hit it off the stage?
    bananagram - Today at 9:13 PM
yeah
    Perris06 - Today at 9:14 PM
Sometimes that can help you
    bananagram - Today at 9:14 PM
or to the other end of the stage, which would be good because I'd have enough space to retreat into
    Perris06 - Today at 9:14 PM
But a duck hunt might anticipate that
That might be better yea
Then we will have to deal with changing the cans position/direction
    bananagram - Today at 9:15 PM
if we're close, like a third of the stage's width, what are your walling options? fair/bair, can?
when Zard gets close, which is his goal, he'll have to deal with them
    Perris06 - Today at 9:17 PM
Fair is safer at close proximity
Some doggos might opt for can and blow both of you up
Fair spaced well is safe
    bananagram - Today at 9:18 PM
falling fair?
    Perris06 - Today at 9:18 PM
And bair is only safe when spaced well, but it's harder to hit
Yea falling fair
    bananagram - Today at 9:19 PM
hm, when Zard gets to midrange he should flamethrower to pressure, maybe condition you to shield
it can gain a little stage control, but doesn't lead to big neutral wins
    Perris06 - Today at 9:19 PM
Up to you
Just don't be predictable
And I think gunman can shoot through
Pretty sure
Get us off stage!!
Like yea
Nair is also hard to punish for us
Some times
Spaced well
Plus it knocks away our stuff
    bananagram - Today at 9:22 PM
Zard's nair?
hm, what are your out of shield options?
nair, fair, and jab look good
and what do you use clay pidgeon for?
you throw cans to get people off, you lay cans somewhere to control parts of the stage, set up traps, and be remote hitboxes, you use gunmen to scout defensive options
    Perris06 - Today at 9:26 PM
Zards Nair yea
Out of shield options are Grab, Jab, Nair, and Bair
Clay pigeon is a zoning tool because of the huge amounts of end lag
But gives a good chunk of damage and is a combo starter
And yes those are good notes
    bananagram - Today at 9:28 PM
I think our best option for clay pidgeon is to dash up to it, fh/sh airdodge, and get to midrange
    Perris06 - Today at 9:29 PM
Might be yea
If you can get around it without shielding that's best
    bananagram - Today at 9:29 PM
yeah, similar to arcfire
    Perris06 - Today at 9:30 PM
Yea
    bananagram - Today at 9:31 PM
and you lay cans and use dtilt to make them fast projectiles
that's a really good use
    Perris06 - Today at 9:32 PM
Yea
It's a good way to shoot it forward and or change it's, direction
    bananagram - Today at 9:33 PM
and you make ledge traps with cans mostly?
    Perris06 - Today at 9:33 PM
Yea
    bananagram - Today at 9:33 PM
nair looks good for it too, that lasts forever
    Perris06 - Today at 9:33 PM
Can at ledge
Dog near roll position
Yea I'm starting to incorporate it more
    bananagram - Today at 9:34 PM
getup attack would beat a can at the ledge, and you would need a read to hit jump
    Perris06 - Today at 9:34 PM
We can shield at ledge with can to beat ledge attack and jump
But yes a read would be needed for it
    bananagram - Today at 9:35 PM
we could also ledge drop nair, which might beat the can at all points
but a shield at the ledge would beat it
    Perris06 - Today at 9:35 PM
Yea
    bananagram - Today at 9:35 PM
you could also dash attack to punish it precisely
    Perris06 - Today at 9:35 PM
Keep switching it up
Keep us guessing
You have to take risks
    bananagram - Today at 9:37 PM
defensive mixups seem vital for us
    Perris06 - Today at 9:37 PM
Yep
Drop down fair could help snack the can back at us
And help u back on stage
    bananagram - Today at 9:38 PM
yeah
do you like platforms, like on BF?
and I can see you liking SV because it's small
    Perris06 - Today at 9:43 PM
I personally don't have a preference
I'd strike dreamland tho
And chose t&c or final d
I'd start on sv because I'm from Florida
    bananagram - Today at 9:44 PM
that would probably be good in this matchup
    Perris06 - Today at 9:45 PM
Platforms could make it hard for you tho
Can set ups
    bananagram - Today at 9:45 PM
Zard gets a much better advantage state on BF thanks to platform sharking, but a worse disadvantage state
    Perris06 - Today at 9:45 PM
Also helps us land
You would have to play and choose the stages you like
Maybe ask for friendlies soon
I can't right now tho
    bananagram - Today at 9:46 PM
maybe we should strike TC because it helps you land
I dunno if anyone would respond, I'm a 3DS player
    Splooshi Splashy - Today at 9:47 PM
We Doggos already aren't the biggest fans of thee DH stage to begin with....
Zard's UThrow makes the big tree even less desirable of a place for us Doggos to go.
    bananagram - Today at 9:49 PM
yeah
it seems weird taking you to duck hunt though
thanks for the matchup help
ima make notes of them, or maybe just keep them as logs
do you have any questions about Zard for the matchup?
    Perris06 - Yesterday at 10:07 PM
What seems like the biggest problem in this mu? From what I told you
What should we capitalize on?
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:09 PM
Landings, laggy moves
Bad approach
That's what you need to do
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:17 PM
bad approaches are good things to bait and look out for
also we don't have great options to land
flames, ac nair, dj ac nair, and rock smash
you can beat most of them by waiting just under Zard with shield up
he can beat that with b-reverse flames, and if he lands there's a mindgame between landing fair, rock smash, and empty land jab/grab
he can pressure, but he doesn't have very safe options to poke with
he has shorthop mindgames, between sh fair, landing fair, and tomohawk jab/grab, but a wrong guess and he could get punished
he can use bair, which is safe on shield from huge range
you must be careful to shield or dodge bair, because it has insane knockback
like, Zard has a weaker fair and a stronger bair, like most characters, and his fair = Fox's bair
he can run in and usmash, which anti-airs and scoops you up, and is frame 7
completely unsafe though
you can gimp with nair
rush in before he gets in up-b range and hit him
    Perris06 - Yesterday at 10:27 PM
Nice
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:27 PM
but if he up-b's he'll tank the hit
    Perris06 - Yesterday at 10:35 PM
Good to note
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:37 PM
It's not worth going off stage against zard
Unless you wanted to force the option and you know you won't die
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:38 PM
well, you can spike him at the top. fly armor only exists for the first half
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:38 PM
That's good to know
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:39 PM
Would it be a good idea to bair can to edge guard?
Since the armor in Zard's up b could screw up any gimps you try to throw out.
And although the armor doesn't last for the entire move, won't most Zards go to snap the ledge?
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:40 PM
they will, so you'd have to be precise
can sounds like a good idea, but I dunno if it would hit
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
I think it would have to catch them jumping. Zard's up b knocks it away
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
Think of it like trying to gimp corrin with can
That's what it's like
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:42 PM
Every time I think of gimping corrin I shudder
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
Also, always have to be aware of flare blitz
You should protect yourself from that always
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:43 PM
^^^
I lost a stock in bracket to a Zard because I did a regular get up and they flare blitz punished it
Do many Zards throw flare blitz out when the opponent and Zard have high percent?
Or is that too risky for the Zard
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:44 PM
Yes
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
no, many zards never use it
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
If they're at death %, adding on more doesn't matter
Get the kill
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
nope, that's untrue completely
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:45 PM

    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
if they fail it, they get forced into hard knockdown and eat a kill move
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:45 PM
That means you don't play with Zards that do hard reads
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
the risk/reward on flare blitz is too heavy on the risk side
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
It is, but it's an option never to be forgotten about
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
I use it sometimes for reads, because it beats things in a unique way
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
Okay, so what would be an ideal situation for a Zard to do flare blitz?
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:46 PM
Recovering far
After a back throw
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:47 PM
if they know you will shorthop or throw out an attack that does less than 15%
or to get through some projectiles
flare blitz only really beats your gunman if he uses it as soon as you pull it out
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:47 PM
Well, from my experience all of DH's projectiles beat out flare blitz
    Perris06 - Yesterday at 10:47 PM

    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:47 PM
Tru
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:47 PM
it'll collide with all your projectiles and not go through them
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
It goes through CP weak
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
really?
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
From what I remember
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
I assumed it wouldn't because it has lingering hitboxes
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
Yee CP stops flare blitz
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:48 PM
If it detonates, then yes it'll beat it out
Ah ok
I know I always avoid trying to use it
in the MU
Just used exclusively to catch landings for hard punishes
    Grigg (PikDaPiks) - Yesterday at 10:50 PM
I mean, I like using it since Zard is such a big target
But only if far away
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
he can dodge through it and close space
    Dawangthang - Yesterday at 10:51 PM
He can close the distance quick though
You need to be super careful
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:54 PM
I don't see it as a good tool in neutral
    Splooshi Splashy - Yesterday at 10:56 PM
At least Zard's run is among the faster runs in the cast (9th place, according to KuroganeHammer).
Plus he can stop running at a quicker pace than most.
    bananagram - Yesterday at 10:57 PM
he has 13 frames of skid
he can dash up and jab or dtilt, dash attack (which is super good), rar bair, choose between sh fair/landing fair/empty hop, or grab
or do a sliding rock smash to go a little distance with armor to get through a jab or something
    Perris06 - Yesterday at 11:03 PM
Good to know