Aeidhryn thread about bigots

Aeidhryn
Are we taking out the "Don't say opinions are wrong?"
Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:45pm
72.241.20.20

Did someone say that the rule "Don't tell other people their opinions are wrong" is a shield for bullies?

I don't think it is. Can't you tell a bully to not bully without addressing the rightness of either his/her or the victim's opinion? Can't you just say, "Nobody's going to win; let's just stop now; this subject is off the Board; please keep it there"?

Just because someone's opinion makes someone else feel bad doesn't mean we can't have them, for fear that we make others unhappy.

Yes. Bigot is an insult. Even if it's true. I don't know if it is. I'm just pointing out the connotation.

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Artell
Re: Are we taking out the "Don't say opinions are wrong?"
Wed Aug 1, 2012 8:26am
194.89.24.53

Have you read through the multiple discussion threads we've had on this? You are essentially advocating a hands-off approach where we let bigots off the hook for being bigots. Intolerance needs to be called out or it will breed and fester. We need to say, without equivocation or hesitation, that they are wrong. It's not because we're trying to beat them in an argument, it's to establish an environment where bigotry is unacceptable and frowned upon. Bigotry is not a victimless crime.

I'm not sure what to make of your last sentence. I suppose it's an insult. But it's a well deserved one, e.g. in Jacer's case. I will call a spade a spade.

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Aeidhryn
Re: Are we taking out the "Don't say opinions are wrong?"
Wed Aug 1, 2012 9:00am
72.241.20.20

Yes, I read through the discussion threads, and I disagree with some of it. I was just checking to see if the new Constitution was going to go through.

No, I thought we would just tell everyone the discussion was unproductive and move on. I can easily see this turning into something where the majority can take the majority opinion and whack the minority over the head with it until it flees or falls unconscious or begs for mercy, whichever comes first.

It's not that we're nasty people. The PPC just feels very strongly about these things. And letting people go on the loose about things they feel so strongly about doesn't tend to end well.

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VixenMage
H'm.
Wed Aug 1, 2012 11:39am
76.204.150.193

I don't agree with everything Artell's said on this thread, or even everything that's been said on this thread (and others) in general, so I'm only speaking for myself, here.

Neshomeh and Phobos, I believe, are correct in thinking that there's a tendency at the moment to assume the worst in comments that you disagree with. I think the only way to combat this is to communicate as clearly as we possibly can, especially on issues of sensitivity, such as this one. So I'm going to try and be as clear as I know how.

Did someone say that the rule "Don't tell other people their opinions are wrong" is a shield for bullies?

I don't think it is. Can't you tell a bully to not bully without addressing the rightness of either his/her or the victim's opinion? Can't you just say, "Nobody's going to win; let's just stop now; this subject is off the Board; please keep it there"?

See, this creates a few issues. The first issue is that sometimes, expressing an opinion is a way of bullying. I think I addressed this somewhere down the line, and I'm sure others have as well. For example, someone may have a personal opinion, held with great conviction, that Latter Day Saints are a terrible, evil cult, and their religion should be illegal. This is an opinion that is incredibly bullying to the LDS PPCers. However, you are right in that nobody can, with any effectiveness, really go "That opinion is wrong!" We all know how that one ends; when you tell someone their opinion is wrong, in almost all cases, they double down and things get ugly.

But what is a valid response is "That opinion is bigoted, by way of marginalizing a group of people based on their religion, and you shouldn't be expressing it here."

I will try to be as clear as I can here, one of the very few places where I can speak with certainty. When someone is being a bully and a bigot, when their behavior is harming others, it is not wrong to tell them. There are a series of videos that went around the web some time ago about telling people their behavior was a problem without insulting them. As in, there's a difference between "That joke you just made was racist," and "You're a racist."

And this is where the "Chance to apologize/back off" part comes in. The difference between someone being a bully and engaging in bullying optionis is what happens next. For example:

Person A: Catholics and Canadians are terrible people!
Person B: Wow, that's really a pretty offensive thing to say. [Links to Constitution] Can you please not say stuff like this here?

Person A has some options, here, and they can be broken down into three basic scenarios. One, there is no response, and the thread drops off the Board. That's not ideal, but it's not a bad way to let things go. The other two are basically as follows:

Scenario 1:
Person A: But it's just my opinion! My religion is opposed to Catholicism, and you can't tell me what to believe! And being Canadian is objectively sinful and wrong!

Person B: ...Yeah, see, we have Catholics and Canadians on this Board, and you're being really rude and cruel to them. If you don't stop, you will be asked to leave.

This is an example of What Not To Do.

Scenario 2:
Person A: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be offensive to anyone, it's just a private belief. I'll keep that rule in mind in the future.

This is the way to respond. If Person A wants to continue discussing, after they have apologized, they should be very careful. But it's not a silencing tactic, it's a means to keep people from attacking and hurting others.

Do you understand what I mean, here?

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Aeidhryn
Yes. I understand. And I very much agree with it.
Wed Aug 1, 2012 12:09pm
24.52.114.34

That way it's the declaration of opinion that's being targeted and stopped, because its potential negative effect on others--not the person.

This is good.

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VixenMage
A Caveat.
Wed Aug 1, 2012 9:41pm
24.91.64.158

I apologize for not realizing this. I posted without the usual amount of proofreading, due to various amounts of stress and time-lacking. I should add - two things, actually.

First: We're all intelligent people here, and people who, I gather, somewhat value intelligence. If someone's opinion is clearly, subjectively wrong, they might double down and gnash their teeth, but that shouldn't... factual inaccuracies are not things to argue about. The Church of Latter Day Saints is not an evil cult, and Catholicism is not an evil cult, and being LGBT is not a choice. Things like sin, ethics, morals, squick-threshholds, etc... those are subjective, and rather more applicable to the post above this one. Person B would've been well within their rights to go "That's really offensive, [Link], please don't say that, also it's completely incorrect, and here is factual evidence to that effect."

Second: This bothered me the first time I read your post, but being short on time, I left it out. I would like to say it here, though.

Calling someone a bigot may be insulting. It may be insulting even if it's true. But quite frankly, if someone says something bigoted, insists they've done nothing wrong, and actively bullies people based on their sexual orientation, race, gender, religion, etc, they are being a bigot. I think if this is the case, if someone refuses to acknowledge that their behavior is harming others and bigoted, it's rather more important that we be accurate than that we be sensitive.

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(responding to:
Aeidhryn
Re: Are we taking out the "Don't say opinions are wrong?"
Wed Aug 1, 2012 9:00am
72.241.20.20)

Artell
Re: Are we taking out the "Don't say opinions are wrong?"
Wed Aug 1, 2012 10:13am
194.89.24.53

"I can easily see this turning into something where the majority can take the majority opinion and whack the minority over the head with it until it flees or falls unconscious or begs for mercy, whichever comes first."

Since the minority in question would be bigots, then yes, good! That's exactly what I want! I am not afraid of this somehow becoming a tool for oppressing people who like the colour blue instead of green, because this is the PPC and I have some faith in the community here. You yourself said we're not nasty people.

"The PPC just feels very strongly about these things. And letting people go on the loose about things they feel so strongly about doesn't tend to end well.

My point exactly, which is why we must tackle bigotry at every turn. What, you don't think bigots feel strongly about their terrible opinions? (If they didn't they'd be smart and keep them to themselves.)