yikes

[Info] Denica: so is there a house that supports winning over like... societal standards?
[Info] Aleksei: Could you unpack that a little?
[Info] Rinel: Not needed. The answer is every Lycene house
[Info] Rinel: (I'm joking. Sort of)
[Info] Aleksei: Thrax is the first that comes to mind, although not so much as a rule with the house, but having specific historical instances
[Info] Denica: Like... where coming out on top matters more than like... "Oh you aren't as important as X so shhh"
[Info] Rinel: All of the houses adhere to societal standards, but the standards of the realm vary from place to place. So a very appropriate Lycene house would be outrageously offensive to the standards of an only somewhat appropriate Oathlands house.
[Info] Aleksei: The first with the Crownbreaker Wars where they violated Sanctuary, among other things. And Donrai was known for being super tyrannical in a way society did not approve of. Which are examples that work beyond just the regional differences.
[Info] Tabitha: oooh a scandalous Lycene salon would be a fun org idea
[Info] Denica: basically Where could one be an absolute sociopath and thrive?
[Info] Tabitha: a bunch of libertines lounging around and being subversive
[Info] Aleksei: The Lyceum is known for ambition and pragmatism, and the house paramount there has shifted a few times in history, which is fairly unique thematically.
[Info] Tabitha: although tbf there's not really many hang-ups about certain behaviours that might be considered a bit saucy
[Info] Lark: I mean, it depends what you mean, Denica. Eventually, you'll probably stop thriving anywhere if you are completely like, murderous.
[Info] Rinel: Hmmmmm. An /absolute/ sociopath probably isn't going to do well anywhere, because even the most Lycene of Lycenes is going to do more than just look askance at someone who is an actual oathbreaker
[Info] Denica: Sociopathic and Psycopathic are different, neither require murder.
[Info] Lark: Well, that is why I asked what you meant.
[Info] Lark: I didn't want to get into defining mental illness. I just want to know what you mean in terms of play.
[Info] Denica: I guess I am just asking where morals would be the least issue then?
[Info] Tabitha: maybe make a connection with Pravus?
[Info] Aureth: This may be a conversation that you want to have in private with staff.
[Info] Aureth: Because... yikes, basically.
[Info] Tabitha: yeah sociopathy is a bit of a sticky wicket to address
[Info] Aleksei: I mean, you're alluding to a concept that might get full-on vetoed in chargen, to be honest
[Info] Denica: I mean.... not really if we are looking at a feudal society? That is the modern definition of sociopathy, especially given the themes of noble houses?
[Info] Tabitha: eeeeeeh
[Info] Videl: It's important to keep in mind that this is primarily a cooperative PvE game; so concepts generally need to be able to play nice with others.
[Info] Tabitha: yeah what Videl said
[Info] Lark: Saying Arx is feudal or medieval is misleading. It's a fantasy world.
[Info] Tabitha: it's like having the lone wolf concept in a tabletop game, the thief who steals everyone's loot
[Info] Denica: Yes but Sociopaths DO play nice with others. When it suits them
[Info] Videl: A concept may be thematically suitable for the setting and yet not be suitable as PCs.
[Info] Aleksei: I wasn't saying stuff is impossible to exist, I just meant that staff sometimes restricts certain concepts based on feeling like they're not going to do well in play. Including concepts based on being too antagonistic, yeah.
[Info] Tabitha: yeah
[Info] Videl: Or require a certain degree of staff trust before they let you try it.
[Info] Tabitha: I mean you can play a pretty devious, self-serving character without going into full-blown sociopathy
[Info] Rinel: There's nothing wrong with your idea /per se/ Denica, but the reason people are being hesitant is that it can be very hard to pull off a person without morals who is really only out for themselves in a collaborative RP environment, and staff wants very hard to make sure the environment stays collaborative.
[Info] Denica: where are you drawing that line Tabi?
[Info] Tabitha: using textbook definitions of sociopathy to inform your RP
[Info] Lark: Tabitha isn't drawing the line. She's just pointing out you can.
[Info] Tabitha: yeah I was about to say, not drawing any lines
[Info] Lark: The only person who draws lines is staff. So to get lines drawn, this conversation would have to go to a request, probably.
[Info] Videl: Denica, ultimately none of us can say for sure whether staff will be fine with your concept. What we are saying is that you will likely want to talk to staff before going to far down this road.
[Info] Denica: I mean text book sociopaths are Charming. Witty. Secuctive. Manipulative, and can emulate empathy. Which is like... half of the stats people farm for clout... so...
[Info] Theodoric is described as close to that vein
[Info] Nurie: I think a lot of PCs have an element of scandal/bucking trends to them.  But if you're going gonads to the wall all out that may not last very long.
[Info] Rinel: I have a character concept for a Lycene who is just full on Wheel of Time Aes Sedai ripoff. Always tells the truth, and everyone knows it, but everyone also knows that the truth she says is all twisted and purposefully misleading.
[Info] Rinel: I think the shorthand for this is "lawyer?"
[Info] Videl: Denica: No that's not 'textbook sociopath' that's stereotypical sociopath, and is actually closer to a narcissist when it comes to textbook definitions of these things.
[Info] Tabitha: I mean, ultimately it's down to the staff. If the concept if a square peg that's never going to fit into a round hole, then they'll say.
[Info] Tabitha: Videl has a point, actually. Though to be fair, I've known diagnsed sociopaths who do fit the stereotypes, but that's neither here not there.
[Info] Aleksei: This channel is probably not really the place to hash out, like, the lines of sociopathy. I was just saying that there are certain levels of antagonistic character concepts that staff might wholesale deny if they don't feel it will play collaboratively in the gamespace, so it's something to keep in mind. Or talk further to them directly about it.
[Info] Lark: ^^^^^
[Info] Tabitha: yeah what Aleksei said.
[Info] Denica: I mean I am not gonna argue clinical vs practical sociopaths. Being an egomaniac comes with is, but there is ultimately a level of seduction/manipulation/empathy requried to keep up the facade.
[Info] Tabitha: again, eeeeeeeh
[Info] Tabitha: you seem pretty cool, Denica, but I feel like this is flogging a dead horse
[Info] Denica shrugs. "Sorry. I dunno there is a strange juxtaposition of reality and fantasy and was looking where I could fit in is all."
[Info] Denica: apparently nowhere is the answer
[Info] Videl: Denica: We're not saying the character can't work
[Info] Tabitha: I mean even now I make mistakes with canon/theme
[Info] Lark: I think the answer was to talk to staff, not nowhere.
[Info] Videl: We're saying 'talk to staff'
[Info] Lark: https://media2.giphy.com/media/3KWHzadf2Iq64/giphy.gif
[Info] Tabitha: a lot of people do
[Info] Tabitha: but the people who will know better than anyone would be staff
[Info] Denica: Lmao LArk
[Info] Tabitha: I hope you can have fun here, though! there's a lot to be enjoyed
[Info] Denica: Like I get it is fantasy, but I wanted to latch more on to the realism part, with the feudal set up and such.
[Info] Denica: That seemed like the cool part to me
[Info] Denica: is all
[Info] Tabitha: i'm just wondering if there any lore files that'll help
[Info] Rinel: Scheming and the like is very Lycene. But there's never going to be kill-your-way-to-the-top. There could definitely be plot-your-way-upwards arcs.
[Info] Aleksei: Again, I would suggest speaking directly with staff. The is room on the game for lots of realism.
[Info] Videl: Denica: Again, the problem with your concept isn't really a theme one. That kind of concept can work thematically, but the question is whether your concept is well-suited for the kind of RP this game is meant to have, and that's a discussion that really ought to be had with staff.
[Info] Malcolm: Definitely speak to staff.
[Info] Tabitha: yeah staff are cool beans and good eggs
[Info] Denica: I get what you all are saying... but you see how that seems... off... when seduction and manipulation are skills that rewarded mechanically?
[Info] Malcolm: No.
[Info] Tabitha: i'm respectfull going to bow out off this one, i don't think i can add anything helpful to the discussion except say 'ask staff'
[Info] Nurie: Not really.  There are a ton of people who scheme/seduce to get what they want, or to benefit their house first.
[Info] Tabitha: good luck with getting settled, though! <3
[Info] Videl: Keep in mind that social skills exist primarily to interact with NPCs not with other PCs
[Info] Nurie: But it's not something you can force with mechanics, at least not with PCs.  It's just not how it works here (or to be honest, any other game I've played).
[Info] Kaldur: What Videl said.
[Info] Kaldur: And Nurie.
[Info] Denica: no i can't reward it. but building ted bundy on a sheet is worth more than building other people due to social clout, but then everyone agrees that wouldn't be easy to play?
[Info] Calaudrin: I think everyone agrees that you probably need to talk to staff about your concept.
[Info] Kaldur: I don't follow.
[Info] Aureth: The ability to read other characters' social cues in RP is very difficult. It requires a lot of OOC social intelligence to pull off well, because not all players are great about portraying social cues in ways that make sense, and few people are as good about reading tone in text online as they think.
[Info] Denica: there is a clear disconnect between what is wanted RP wise and what is rewarded on a sheet
[Info] Aleksei: Characters having those skills do not mean they are sociopaths. That is an odd conclusion to draw.
[Info] Videl: ... are you really conflating 'is good at social things' with 'serial killing necrophiliac' like those have any connection?
[Info] Denica: you are conflating the worst of a persons actions vs what their actual social pull was.
[Info] Denica: all of the worst people of history were good at social things is my point. I am looking for where the line is drawn and which house would blur it most?
[Info] Rinel: /off
[Info] Rinel: oof sorry wrong one
[Info] Nurie: What do you mean "worth more"?  And I don't believe that's true.
[Info] Denica: Social clout clearly has a unbalanced favor for it.
[Info] Nurie: Seems like kind of a strange conclusion to draw.
[Info] Aleksei: People have said many times now that you should talk directly to staff and I don't think there's really a productive conversation to be had here at this point.
[Info] Kaldur: Social clout is an an abstraction, to be sure. I disagree that it's clearly unbalanced. Denica, you can take those skills and use them in Actions, generally interacting with the world. I've used social skills to get a read when *I* can't judge something, or to signal to another player, 'hey, I'm going for this, but my writing is hnnngh today.' They are under no obligation to sway.
[Info] Kaldur leaves it at that.
[Info] Denica: Aight.
[Info] Malcolm: Is it possible to play a selfish scheming manipulator?  Yes.  Does it involve a lot of communication and a careful hand in making sure that others are able to retain their autonomy? Resounding yes.
[Info] Malcolm: Which is why everyone suggests you speak with GMs and such.
[Info] Nurie: Yeah, playing antagonists is rewarding, but it's a great deal more work, and most of the time a lot of OOC stuff involved too.  Not just rolling dice. Hell even if you don't play an antagonist, often moving story or cooperation forward requires so much more than a roll.
[Info] Tabitha: I have a question. I bet it's a super dumb one.
[Info] Aleksei: Can we maybe move stuff off Info at this point?
[Info] Aleksei: I mean -- not Tabitha's question