Apr 19 20:11:10 <Zorix>    so, how do i run eduke32 with Ion Maiden's GRP file without using duke32?
Apr 19 20:11:38 <Zorix>    or is ion maiden's version of eduke32 the only thing that works with that grp file
Apr 19 20:17:44 <Zorix>    hmm
Apr 19 20:19:48 <Zorix>    nope doesnt work with duke3d.grp file either.. strange
Apr 19 21:26:35 <Hendricks>    you don't
Apr 19 21:26:37 *    Hendricks is now known as Hendricks266
Apr 19 21:28:04 <Zorix>    oh really?
Apr 19 21:28:27 <Zorix>    i thought it was eduke3d powering that game hmm
Apr 19 21:32:56 <Zorix>    if they are using eduke32, parts of that are gpl version 2, they would be required to release any changes to the source code.. since i havent found any hint of their changes that would modify eduke32 to support it, they are either using some other engine or are in license violation
Apr 19 21:33:53 <Zorix>    i think people are probably assuming its eduke32 since it's the most maintained build engine port then
Apr 19 21:34:25 <Zorix>    makes me wonder what they are using now
Apr 19 21:35:46 <Zorix>    oh.. no under the legal.doc it says it uses eduke32 engine
Apr 19 21:36:27 <Zorix>    so i guess they are in license violation since their changes arent out there, and they havent upstreamed any changes.. so their grp file doesnt load with eduke32
Apr 20 01:08:34 <Hendricks266>    Zorix: speaking as the technical director of Ion Maiden, we are not in violation because there is nothing to upstream
Apr 20 01:08:48 <Hendricks266>    you just haven't figured out how to make it work
Apr 20 01:09:05 <Hendricks266>    and we don't want you to
Apr 20 01:09:07 <Hendricks266>    use our shipped executables
Apr 20 07:42:37 <Zorix>    Hendricks266, thats pretty awful that you wouldn't want people to explore it and have fun with it, thats half the fun
Apr 20 10:01:02 <Hendricks266>    Zorix: You can explore when the full game is out.
Apr 20 10:11:44 <Hendricks266>    If exploring were half the fun, we would have included "Enjoy tearing down our game to use its assets in your next ripfest ZDoom mod!" as part of our advertising.
Apr 20 10:14:20 <Genju>    :D
Apr 20 16:59:15 <Zorix>    Hendricks266, thats the way open source works, you use an open source engine, you are encouraging people to enjoy your work and extend it and things like that, you shouldn't see it as a negative, its very much a good thing
Apr 20 17:00:37 <Zorix>    however, i took a look at eduke32's code for a bit today, i see how it works, even an environment variable that's used to override the grp file selection, and i also see how you have compiled it using makefile selections that also sets compiler defines in the code to create a standalone product
Apr 20 17:01:22 <Zorix>    i just dont see why you'd want to discourage people from making use of that and trying to hide it.. but i understand from a closed source business perspective it seems bad
Apr 20 17:03:10 <Zorix>    that aside, i think the work you have done with ion maiden is fantastic, it captures the feel of the time period and making it feel more open and playable today.. i just wanted to make a map using the art assets really, always enjoyed making build engine maps even though im not great at it
Apr 20 21:55:02 <Zorix>    well i nearly got ion maiden working with eduke32 after a few minutes of playing, it does crash though.. but it detects the grp file and grpinfo and loads the defs, it even says ion maiden in the screen that comes up before launch
Apr 20 22:08:17 <Zorix>    looks like i need to compile in some symbols
Apr 20 22:08:28 <Zorix>    Thread 1 "eduke32" received signal SIGFPE, Arithmetic exception.
Apr 20 22:22:37 <Zorix>    yea i figured it out, you all are using a different art file version.. so you do have gpl code changes that arent released
Apr 20 22:23:06 <Zorix>    i disabled the exit on art file version error and it loads, with graphical glitches though
Apr 20 22:24:09 <Zorix>    almost playable too heh
Apr 20 22:28:29 <Zorix>    all i can say is...rude
Apr 20 22:33:27 <Zorix>    ohh i see.. you guys modified the part of the build engine not covered by gpl.. thats how you can get away with it.. you are using ken silverman's commercial license
Apr 20 22:35:42 <Zorix>    clever way to change things slightly, increase the version number, and you can prevent people from running it in eduke32.. clever but nasty, i kind of regret paying for the game now, i wouldnt have done that if i knew this is what you were doing
Apr 21 00:36:26 <rhoenie>    whats up with this zorix guy?
Apr 21 00:37:00 <Zorix>    well i figured it out
Apr 21 00:37:25 <Zorix>    i figured out the issue with tiles000.art
Apr 21 00:37:55 <Zorix>    you guys added 8 extra bytes at the beginning so it wouldnt load through eduke32, i made some header loading changes and it loads ion maiden's art assets now
Apr 21 00:38:58 <Zorix>    so yea, all i wanted to do was play around with it as a regular user, i had to go back into my dev mindset to get what i needed
Apr 21 00:39:48 <Zorix>    but yea i know im mostly talking to a wall heh
Apr 21 00:40:46 <Zorix>    also found a bug too
Apr 21 00:47:16 <Zorix>    oh and look mapster can see the art tiles just fine heh
Apr 21 18:50:41 <Hendricks266>    Zorix: "playing around with it" and "regular user" are mutually exclusive
Apr 21 19:54:41 <Zorix>    Hendricks266, exactly, which is why when it was not possible without source modifications, i had to go that route
Apr 21 19:55:06 <Zorix>    but no im not going to get a refund, that is beyond crass
Apr 21 19:55:14 <Zorix>    i got it on GOG too
Apr 21 19:55:45 <Hendricks266>    I'm saying it's unreasonable to want tearing down our game to be something we consider reasonable for regular users to do
Apr 21 19:56:28 <Zorix>    why is that unreasonable but it's reasonable to do for duke nukem 3d and all other ported games to eduke32's engine?
Apr 21 19:57:37 <Zorix>    just looking to understand your views better
Apr 21 19:58:46 <Zorix>    personally im not interested in ripping assets to load into zdoom or some other game engine.. just looking to be able to run self compiled code and to play with mapping
Apr 21 19:58:58 <Zorix>    honestly, the maps in the game inspired me
Apr 21 19:59:11 <Zorix>    not that i would come close to any of that
Apr 21 20:37:32 <Hendricks266>    those games were made 20 years ago
Apr 21 20:37:47 <Hendricks266>    this one is brand new
Apr 21 20:41:34 <Zorix>    3d realms expected modders to have fun with it before, thats why they included the tools in the release cd, even if the code was not open, it was open to changes and additions and modding, even when it was brand new
Apr 21 20:42:06 <Zorix>    now that you run from an open sourced engine, you want to do the exact opposite?
Apr 21 20:42:47 <Zorix>    the people that are going to show interest in this game are the same ones that had fun with the original build engine games, they expect to have the same level of mod capabilities
Apr 21 20:44:08 <Zorix>    the assets that come with the game are copyrighted, that much is something that people should respect, but give people the ability to work with it, treat the customers with some respect
Apr 21 20:44:47 <Zorix>    the spirit of the engine is alive because of the modders, dont deny people that heritage
Apr 21 20:46:49 <Zorix>    this does not harm sales