Drake - Today at 7:10 AM
I would've preferred this conversation happened on f-list, in all honesty.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:13 AM
Let me preface this by saying I don't hold a grudge and I've forgiven you long ago. That said you've reported me on f-list on several occasions. Call me paranoid but I'd rather not have to worry about that. Part of me is worried this is just some bait for another report.

That's my all honesty. Hence why I prefer discord.
I've forgiven, not forgotten.

Drake - Today at 7:17 AM
One of those circumstances came from a certain individual-  Actually, no, I don't care about that any more.  People's hijinks, shenanigans, and general bullshittry has burned me to a point of emotional exhaustion that often leaves me questioning why I interact with them.

They are not the focus, or the reason why I've come to talk.  I've come for myself, for closure, and to end a period of life that just seems so silly now.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:20 AM
Right. Well that should be rather effortless. Like I said I let this go long ago. Just kept my wits about me because I got the occasional Jab vaguely from your direction over the course of years. Sometimes a report I was positive came from you. Sometimes someone coming to me telling me they were asked not to talk to me. Sometimes people apologized for blindly following that advice months later. Either way they served as reminders to be diligent. Even though my anger at the fact you burned me twice had long since subsided.
I'm also on my phone so apologies for phone typing shenanigans.
Drake - Today at 7:22 AM
I'm familiar with phone typing shenanigans, so no worries.  If something doesn't make sense, I'll ask for clarification.
I've taken my time to come to the point where I can talk to you without being paranoid and terrified.  This isn't as recent a decision as it may seem, if it does at all.  I want to leave it all behind, I don't want to look back any more.  The fear, the anger, the paranoia, the dread, it's all just so.. Well, there isn't a polite word for it, but frankly it's well past time to put it in the ground and throw a headstone over it.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:33 AM
I'm curious what drove both of those emotions. Because I've never given you cause for them. In fact I forgave you after a stinge of jealousy caused you to drag my name through the mud. And you took advantage of that only to do it again months later.  I helped mend your relationship with Adrian, something I saw was hurting you really badly. Several of the things you claimed to be angry with me about I did because I cared about you as a friend.

I wasn't sure how to put this. I'd like to do this on my terms. I feel I deserve as much. Talk things out and get absolute honesty. I'm going to over the course of this say some things that might sting. Bring up presumptions I've not choice but to make. And I invite you to refute them.

And then when it's all said and done it can be properly buried. I guess forgiven isn't the right word. I've moved past it. I've been indifferent on it since a couple of months after your last message on skype. But I guess this is digging up some old feelings. And things I want to say.

Drake - Today at 7:35 AM
You need to be absolutely certain this is what you want to do.  I didn't want to dig into the past, into the old feelings, so please, be absolutely certain this is the course you feel is best for you.
TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:39 AM
I'll be honest. This conversation doesn't cost me anything. And it might give me the sads for a day to dig up emotions. But I can handle that just fine. I'm still pretty robust.

My primary worry is forgiving you only to find out I'm the ass that bumped his head against the same rock not twice but three times. I've seen you go back and forth on forgiving and fighting. Befriending and hating. Fuck, like what, 6 times with the guy that played Captain America who's name escapes me. She also played a Russian werewolf.

So can you honestly tell me you come to me to ask for that forgiveness. And go out of your way to dig through the muck to clear up the shit and make sure it never happens again? Because I don't know. I was hoping this conversation would shed some light on how far I ought to go with this.

Drake - Today at 7:50 AM
That particular mess is also a thing of the past.  Stepping back from holding them in such a high position of esteem, depending on them for things that I wanted, hoped for, and felt I needed and deserved eased a lot of tension away.  Learning how to put distance, keep it, and how much each person and I need to keep has settled a fair number of problems.

There are a few people I put on my ignore list after that same last message on Skype that haven't come off.  I withdrew from the public scene, learned who was worth being friends with and who wasn't.  It was.. an experience.  One I've learned from.  Many of the people you once knew I associated with, I don't any more.  There were too many toxic influences and I am.. excessively susceptible to poison.  So much that I regurgitate it myself.  I trusted people I shouldn't have, let them too close believing they were my friends when I should've just stayed in my little sphere and been content.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:57 AM
That doesn't exactly answer my question. The point is I've known you pretty well. And I've seen you go through this rodeo before with several people. And it ended badly on almost all accounts. More importantly, we've been through that. After you betrayed our friendship and I found the kindness and capacity to forgive you. Heck, I started trusting you again before you did it again.


There's no way for you to guarantee this. No physical way. That said, I'm asking you, I'm telling you that if we do this I'll do it with an open mind. And god damnit, please don't prove to me that I'm a giant idiot for doing so twice. Because I want to forgive you.
If anything for the sake we were friends for nearly two years. Something I held in high regard, and which I perhaps foolishly believed was mutual.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 8:01 AM
Heck. The primary reasons we're even talking now is I believe people can change. I also want to believe you've changed. And finally, Adrian told me you're still friends after I helped mend your relationship. I was kind of happy to hear that. Always feels good to be a positive influence. Even to someone that seemingly wished you the worst for the longest time. So that gave me hope.

Drake - Today at 8:15 AM
I could tell you I've changed.  I could feed you promises and platitudes, but frankly you'd have to see it for yourself.  I don't promise things any more, and I don't ask people to.  I don't ask much of anyone any more.

He and I are friends, and that's been something that happened over time, and yes, your intervention was the catalyst, the starting point.  I'm not going to deny credit where it's due.

I'm not sure where things are going to go in the future.  I came to bury the past, to put things in their place and move forward.  I don't know if where things will go are where any of us think they will, but those steps have got to be taken.

You spoke of wanting to go over the past, to talk about the things that hurt and made you question things.  What made me so terrified of you, what drove me to put you on ignore everywhere I saw you was the hours and hours of arguing, the threats, all because I wanted to stop being a public rp couple.  I understand being devoted to a story, to one you enjoy and treasure, I've been there before.  But when one of the people involved wants to stop, there shouldn't be so much fighting, for so long, with any kind of threatening at all.

And no one has the right to tell anyone they have to ask for permission from someone to play with someone else.  That is, as someone who was told he had to ask for permission to play with someone else, a very manipulative and emotionally abusive thing to tell someone and to expect compliance is just.. worse.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 8:23 AM
I see. Well our experience that differs immensely. I've never told you that you need my permission to play with anyone else. In fact you were the one who told me that. With Adrian and a few others. In addition, while the public canon was a point of contention, it was never a make or break subject. The underlying problem however was something that bothered me. That said I've never threatened you with anything. Except for reporting you for all the backhand bull you put me through... twice.

We'll try to establish a timeline in a moment. I want to quickly go over this. Whatever made you believe you were threatened or any of those things. You either convinced yourself or someone else did. Yes I was bugged by the underlying problem. But if I was that jealous piece of shit you just described. Why on earth would I help you and Adrian fix things knowing he used to play your Roy and you wanted nothing more than to play with him. To the point you'd hurt everyone and everything around you without a seeming care in the world.
Now in my experience the following is our timeline:

- We roleplay in privates and build our story. You're still interacting with Adrian at this point.

- Sometime later you and Adrian have a falling out. No more contact.

- Sometime after that. Concluding you weren't going to do public play with a potential Roy anymore. You asked me about making our canon public.

- Things are fine for a long while. Until Adrian approaches me and we start role playing. At that point you got jealous and spiteful. Told me to put him on ignore.

- I ignored your request and continued playing with him. This sparked you to put me on ignore and drag my name through the mud. With Spider - Man et all who were at the time still friends of yours.

- Three months later you pleaded me to forgive you. The wound was still fresh but gdi I wanted to. I missed our friendship and our RP. We reboot both and things are fine for a while.

- You go into a downward spiral. Hard depression, fights with JT-, Spider Man. The Adrian thing was eating at you. My friend was hurting and I was trying to help. One thing I succeeded in doing was helping you and Adrian reconnect.

- Things go well for a little bit. Until you find yourself in an awkward position. You want Tim free for Roy because I get it, major crush. Meanwhile we've had a story for years and a fairly established public canon. Realizing that you can't have both you decided you wanted to go for Roy. And the guy that dropped you like a brick several times. Over the friend who stood by you and helped you reconnect in the first place. And our much more developed story. That is what stung and that was the underlying problem in my experience. I helped you and you spat in my face. Several times.

Me voicing my displeasure at being discarded while you followed your old flame like a kicked puppy is what sparked our second break. Who knows, maybe you were given an ultimatum, I don't know what forces were at play. What I do know is you made a decision.
A truly hurtful one. And you handled it poorly to say the least. And then to top it all off you dragged me through the mud again after having put me through that once already. While I tried to move past it and ignore it. I went out of my way to not mention you to the point I didn't defend myself. Heck, when people you shit talked in our private skype talks asked for logs if I had them I told them I didn't. That's how far I went not to hurt you. Because I like to think I'm not an asshole.
I think you told yourself I did those things to avoid facing you were the worst kind of friend. That you outright betrayed someone who gave you so much and asked nothing in return. Scared to face that reality and put in positions where your drama hungry friends asked for reasons you bent the story into one where you're the victim. And that story you repeated and got repeated to you so often you started believing it. And acting on it. Honestly at this point I don't mind you telling me I'm not wrong. It'll help us move forward. Though if you are going to say that. It's going to be pretty challenging to convince me that's not how that went. Because I know what I said and did. Threaten you or forbid you from playing with anyone were not amongst them.(edited)

Drake - Today at 8:58 AM
As you said, our experience differs immensely.  Reading all of this makes that very clear.

First, I'm going to go ahead and tell you that Spider - Man and his clique are highly venomous.  I learned this the hard way, when I showed them a preview of a relationship tab I was making for Tim and they had the biggest fits over me still talking to Spider - Man's ex.  His ex, who he had introduced me to and gotten us to playing together.  Later I found out that he did that so he wouldn't have to deal with me or the ex wanting to play with him.  That I was kept around for their amusement, to laugh at behind my back and be strung along like some lost kitten.  I'm certain by now you've learned how toxic they can be for yourself.  Thankfully they seemed to have dropped off the radar, or at least started maining on characters that I don't see around.  It's actually quite nice without them, my stress levels dropped drastically.  I'm also not as close to JT- as I used to be, for my own reasons, and neither of us seem to be bothered by it.  We talk every so often, things are fine, life goes on.  -shrug-

If you're asking for an explanation for my behavior, what, two years ago?  One year ago?  I'm not going to be able to provide you with one.  Asking someone to explain how they behaved at the height of anxiety and the depths of depression and heartbreak is asking something akin to the impossible.  I am not able to give you one.  What you've missed out on in our time of silence is that I've started anti-depressants, and they've been rather helpful.  I no longer suffer a one-sided romantic attraction, I've recently become single and intend to stay that way for a while.

If you would like an apology.. I came with that prepared.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 9:00 AM
What I would have liked is acknowledgement of how things went. I'm almost positive my suspicions were right and if they were. Then I'd have settled for an apology yes. It's in the past. And like I said. I've long since moved past it.
I tried to be there for you at the time. Through your depression and anxiety. Heck, I was - this - close to sending you a care package from the Netherlands. Even looked into shipping costs. But decided not to since asking your address is a little awkward. And got a bit too close.

Drake - Today at 9:04 AM
In all honesty, I would've passed on a care package regardless of what stage of friendship or not.  I'm very uncomfortable with giving out my address to anyone.  That's just a thing for me.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 9:04 AM
And rightfully so.
You were hungry. It was one way I considered helping. It's of no importance. Either way you know what I'd like, ideally. I'm not sure I completely buy you being unable o recall. Again, I'd much prefer raw honesty and just moving forward.
What I don't want is an apology and us moving on with an apology made and you thinking I did those things. Because I didn't for one. And if I did and you'd apologize, that's emotional abuse. So either way that feels wrong.
You'd think if I did those things the roles should have been reversed. With me dragging your name through the mud. Being angry and throwing a tantrum. Reporting you out of spite for random stuff. Me approaching you to apologize rather than this way around.

Drake - Today at 9:13 AM
You're asking me to look back into a tumultuous time of memory with many people whispering into my ears.  To validate a timeline that yes, I remember these things happening, but you've got to understand that from where I sat, with my heart arching and mind raching, facing anger and fear and desperation and hurt from so many directions, it all looked very different to me.  Things I did I felt justified in doing, and when I didn't feel justified, I just felt hurt and wanted someone else to feel hurt.  I wanted to feel like my emotions mattered when so many people were telling me over and over that they didn't.
And I'm not saying you were one of the people saying they didn't matter.  So please, don't assume.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 9:15 AM
Being put through all that. The least I deserve, I feel is not being accused of bs. Heck, the least I deserve is acknowledgment of what happened and a deep ass apology.
And yes. I'm asking that of you. Because you hurt me. You betrayed my trust. You changed me as a person into someone far more weary of opening his heart to others. Someone far more reluctant to forgive and someone who can not forget. Because last time I forgave and forgot I felt the burns for it.
So while I sympathize that you were in a shitty position back then. I also recognize that I've had my hand extended to you the entire time you went through that. And despite what people said, end of the day you made the decisions you made. You did the awful things you did. And ultimately you'll need to take responsibility for those. As much as it might sting and suck.
You wanted to hurt someone. And you decided that someone who did not deserve it. Who deserved it the least was the perfect candidate. Forgive me for wanting that both acknowledged and apologized for. Or to convincingly be proven wrong.
You could have instead grabbed that hand and leaned just a little bit. I wouldn't have minded. It's what friends are for.

Drake - Today at 9:29 AM
The way I felt about you at that time, feeling trapped because I kept trying to break off from being a public canon and not able to get through it without such long, drawn out arguments, do you really think I would've reached out?  If you'd been in my shoes, would you have?

As I see it right now, you want me to go over the timeline you set out, point by point, and tell you what I was thinking?  Is this a correct understanding of what you're asking?

TheJokerPlays - Today at 9:35 AM
The public canon is an interesting one as well. When you mentioned breaking them up I was sad. But okay to continue in private. And we did. Then you saw Ollie flirt in public. Hitting it off with people. And you got furious. YOU were the one who asked to revert it because faced with the question, what do you want your answer was you didn't want Ollie with someone else. Ergo to remain with Tim.

A little while later the same thing came up. Only this time it was because Roy suddenly became an option. Yes we had long talks about that. But that's because you wanted everything. For Ollie to be single/exclusive. For the public canon to be gone. And my stance had always been, it's either or. Either he's single and you'll need to accept I'm popular and he's popular. So he's going to find someone else pretty fucking fast. Or we keep things on.

Never had I put you in a position where you didn't have a chance to cut it. You decided not to. Because you couldn't handle the idea of Ollie with someone else. Until you were guaranteed Roy. Ironically enough because of me in part. Then you had no qualms of dropping things. And I didn't try to stop you either. So that alone proves how wrong you were. It was selfish, greedy even. But I don't see how it could have been handled differently on my end. I couldn't give it all. That wouldn't have been fair.
And no. I'll settle for you saying my analysis was right and that apology you mentioned. No need for step by step. Though if you want to. Go for it.
I distinctly remember our conversations. To further drive the point home. They were slated to get married and adopt a child. That's where our story was headed. Something you were giddy over as the development occurred. I remember you fantasizing about what names Connor would call them. About the Robin Hood stories they'd tell him by the fireside. The archery lessons. And suddenly out of nowhere you wanted to get rid of that? First time I said okay. You realized your window was closing on salvaging that while Adrian wasn't stable with you yet. I remember a quote. 'All he does is publicly abuse (beat Tim up) Tim up when we play' which you resented. Disillusioned and jealous you saw Ollie with someone else you wanted to revert things. Which we did. I was happy to even. Then a few months later, things go better with Adrian. Roy is on the table again and without even discussing it you just dropped me and created this huge drama storm.

Drake - Today at 10:20 AM
Things got worse when Jean continued to tell you everything I did in Marvel-verse, ill-fated channel that it was at the time, and every time Tim so much as looked at someone, I found myself having to answer for it to you.  When entering into an agreement on channels where one isn't bound by a story, having your every move criticized and knowing you're going to be told on like some kid in grade school does nothing to make anyone involved more appealing.

I understand you were hurt.  I do not deny that I was not a good friend and I am not denying that it was me who hurt you.  From where I saw things, every time I did anything, anything, there was a lecture, or a scolding, an argument, or a threat waiting for me afterwards.  Let me make absolutely sure that you understand that was how I felt.  How I felt, not what anyone intended to do or invoke in anyone.

I have spent a fair amount of time regretting the jealousy that led me to react how I did to Oliver making out with someone else in public.  I've thought back to it several times and wished that I hadn't felt anything, that it would've saved us all a lot of trouble later and a lot of hurt for both of us.
You want to know what I was thinking through that timeline?  I was hurting because I loved someone who didn't love me, because I was so blinded by that love that it was slowly driving him away and I didn't see the signs until it was far too late.  That when I reached out to someone else about it, it came back to burn me.  Things finally fell apart and I turned to someone for comfort when I shouldn't have.  When I should've stopped and put myself back together and made myself stand up. And I fell further and got myself into something that only ended up in hurt because of how I acted, how I felt, how I reacted and lashed out when more and more people got involved because of me.  When poisonous people got in because I was stupid enough to reach out over and over and over, and clung to anything that'd give me a moment's attention, regardless of what it did to other people.
Burning you was the first step to realizing how fucking childish and pathetic I'd been.  I realized after I cut off contact from you that things were less stressful, but they were less stressful because the other people stopped heckling me about you.  Then they found out who I was playing with, and they didn't like it.  And they cut me off, saying they didn't trust me.  Things felt like they were at their lowest, I even hurt that ex of theirs in an effort to silence everyone.  And finally I just stopped.  I stopped interacting, stopped talking, pulled back from people and dove into my games.  With all that gone, I started to feel better.  I stopped dreading looking at my computer and talking to people.  But everyone's hurt was fresh in me.  I hurt, and I hated, and I cursed everyone's name.  And yes, I did report you.  I reported you because you still had Timothy Drake on Oliver and Connor's profile and I wanted it gone.  But there was nothing that could be done, it wasn't a link to my profile.  I hated it, but I couldn't do anything about it.  The report was basically denied and I just.. swallowed the hate.  The next time I reported you came when Red Robin told me he dropped my name in conversation to you.  Not only had I not spoken of you in quite a while before that happened, but when he told me and showed me the log, I told him to never, ever, ever mention my name to anyone ever again.  And I submitted a report with screen shots of that, and what you said to me, and after that, I put you back on ignore.  I don't know what they said to you, but the ticket was marked as resolved.
I am sorry for hurting you.  I am sorry for speaking of you to other people.  I am sorry for everything that happened and everything I did.  To promise it won't happen again just feels like tempting fate and creating a burden neither of us should bare.  If we are to truly move forward into the future, it has to happen one day at a time.  One step after another.  That's all I really can do any more.  That's all any of us can do realistically.
For the record, that was one big message.  Apparently there's a 2k character limit per message.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 10:26 AM
Yea the character limit is dumb.
Alright. Apology accepted. Thanks for digging deep to find the memories.

Drake - Today at 10:27 AM
I will not do it again.  I am not returning to such a painful place again.  And I suggest you not do it either.

Drake - Today at 11:00 AM
And my computer goes pbtbtbtb. Anything else we need to cover?

TheJokerPlays - Today at 11:15 AM
I think we've covered it all. Let's pause here either way.
Continue this conversation tomorrow.

Drake - Today at 11:22 AM
Good night then.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 6:19 PM
I'm around. So feel free to nudge when you wake up.

Drake - Today at 7:01 PM
I'm awake.  Shockingly awake, thanks to this wisdom tooth.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:02 PM
Good morning. Also yikes. If you can scrape together the money for surgery, make sure you have all of them removed in one go. It's very cheap to do 'extra' teeth during surgery. Mostly pay for sedatives.

Drake - Today at 7:04 PM
It's in the works.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:05 PM
Cool. I've unbanned Timothy from DC-Verse. I've ironically never had you on ignore.
Not for longer than a couple of weeks.
http://i.imgur.com/sgRm1Oi.png

I'm surprisingly bad at holding grudges. :stuck_out_tongue:(edited)

Drake - Today at 7:06 PM
It's really not a skill I advise picking up.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:06 PM
Yea it's a part of me I really like. Though I needed to get better at protecting myself from getting burnt on the same thing/person multiple times. Which is still a work in progress. I feel I've gotten better at it though.
Forgive but don't forget is a quote I really like.

Drake - Today at 7:09 PM
I'm little fish compared to what I've seen.  Little fish just have the knack of biting sensitive spots.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:19 PM
To tie back into yesterday. that comment about your computer sounds was adorable Just to tie things off as well. I don't feel I was on your ass over what Tim did in places. Except for when the whole Ollie kissed someone and you freaked out fiasco happened. Because at that point we made a decision to reinstate things. And when after that you went ahead and did public stuff while expecting me/Ollie to be exclusive in pub, I probably brought it up once or twice because it was an unfair expectation. More along the lines of either we set up rules that count for us mutually or we don't and live with the consequences. I again understand your experience might have been different. It's sad your state of mind warped the situation to a point it shut down even a chance to talk about things.

It also saddens me to hear the plot we had wasn't real but a simple rebound. It didn't feel that way to me at least. And it was something I got pretty heavily invested in. Especially after all that time. But c'est la vie. That's in the past. Perhaps it was real to some extent or it wouldn't have sparked such a real reaction from you when Ollie was in pub with someone else, I'm not sure if I want clarification on this. Let's not for now, unless you're really burning to say something.

I have substantially less trouble digging through memories. So I don't think me not doing it again is neccasery. I remember things quite clearly and I'm noticing I'm not really emotional over it. Mostly just logical at this point, happy to clear out whatever muck that's left and give it a place.

And with that tied off, let's move forward. I'm going to reserve that forgiveness for when I've seen that you changed. Nothing other than time can reveal that. Though at least there's no hard feelings. And especially no hostilities, not from my part. There hasn't been ever really as far as I'm concerned, with the exception of when I had to defend myself from all the bs that happened after the break.(edited)

Drake - Today at 7:32 PM
I can't say that I feel the burning need to say much else.  I mean, we laid it all out pretty solid last night.  and part of moving forward is not frequently looking back on the past.  That's going to be difficult for me since I've spent so much time living in the past.  It's a necessary difficulty, though, for me to stop living in the past.  Too many ghosts, too many bad memories, too much negativity ruling me.  Gotta break free, gotta move forward, this is where I'm taking another step.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:34 PM
Well I applaud that. I don't know how far our interactions will go. I haven't made a decision yet. But at least don't be afraid to talk to me I guess. I still have a lot of thinking to do. Thanks for approaching me either way, that took some courage.

Drake - Today at 7:37 PM
I've opted not to decide on how any interactions will go on my part until they happen.  For now I'm going to let things settle, and possibly sleep more to escape this unrelenting pain.  Because holy crap, the ow.  The ow is very real.

TheJokerPlays - Today at 7:38 PM
Take some pain killer. Whisky also helps to numb the gums and being a little drunk can't hurt(edited)