convo with dionysus- on religion as a danger to the USA

dionysus-
Roanoke, yeah but when the Muslims invade Canada and you're forced to live under Sharia Law -- you're going to spend a lot more time outside camping.
Monfd
dionysus-: That's a conspiracy theory.
dionysus-
Roanoke, our president is building a fucking wall to keep assholes out, your prime minister is building a fast-pass lane for assholes.
Monfd
dionysus-: What are your primary objections to Muslims?
Monfd
My primary objection to Muslims -- to the extent I have -- is their religiosity.
dionysus-
Monfd, they want to kill everyone who aren't Muslims.
Monfd
But do you know what? Evangelicals are much more orthodox in their religioun than American Muslims.
Monfd
So, if you're concerned about religious inanity -- like killing in the name of religion -- evangelicals are the greater threat.
Monfd
On top of that, there are about 15x more evangelicals in the US than there are Muslims.
dionysus-
You're doing a whataboutism.
Monfd
So, if you're not deeply concerned about evangelical Christians while you are worried about Muslims, then you're not serious about protecting America.
Monfd
dionysus-: There's an argument for labeling what I am doing as that.
Monfd
That is not my intention.
Monfd
I, too, am concerned about orthodox religion and its incompatible with the secular American government.
Monfd
But Islam poses little threat to the USA in that regard.
Monfd
I have citations for every point I've made.
dionysus-
?? muslim no go zones europe
Monfd
dionysus-: The average Trump supporter who is deeply worried about Islam while being supportive of evangelical Christianity is not serious about protecting America.
Monfd
They're merely serious about protecting their own emotions and their own faction -- neither of which is part of the American ideal.
dionysus-
Monfd, Christianity is the dominant religion in the United States. It is wrong to combine people of different cultures and expect them to get along.
Monfd
The reason this argument isn't an example of whataboutism, ultimately, is because there is a direct effort by the religious core of the GOP -- evangelicals and Dominionists -- to distract from their influence on the government to focus on the mostly weak Muslim American minority of ~1%.
Monfd
dionysus-: The United States is founded on the principle of combining people of different cultures and expecting them to get along.
Monfd
Do you think you're incompatible with America, then?
Monfd
There are numerous citations from the Framers -- as well as the text of the Constitution itself -- to support my above assertion.
dionysus-
Monfd, the primary reason why the Middle East has been at war for so long in the 20th century is because borders were arbitrarily drawn after the British left the area after world war II. that left competing muslim sects and cultures together in countries that shouldn't exist.
Monfd
The Framers were specifically attempting to great the republic as a meta-faction that subsumes all factional conflict by both allowing for diversity of faction, while simultaneously constraining its expressions.
Sabeena has joined ([email protected])
Monfd
dionysus-: That, and that the West has intentionally played geopolitics to prevent the rise of secular nationalism that would organize the region.
dionysus-
Monfd, Muslims and Arabs can't even find peace within their own sects and branches of Islam, what makes you think they'll be fine living side by side with Chrisitians? Every Islamic country wants to kill Israeli by the way, not make peace with, kill.
Monfd
The West has shown that it highly values extremist Islamism -- the thing you claim you're trying to stop, in part, with the border.
Monfd
Your government loves extremist Islamism.
Monfd
The primary concern of the USA in the Middle East is secular nationalism.
Monfd
That is why we have -- at every opportunity -- worked against secular nationalist forces by supporting the most extremist elements of Islam to keep the region in a perpetual state of crisis which we then dominate.
Monfd
Recall, there are two fundamental realities present here that are in juxtaposition:
dionysus-
We The People have sent a message to our globalist government leaders that allowing American culture to be tainted with foreigners not the direction We The People want this country to go in.
Monfd
1. The actual ideology underlying the actions of the State Department and Defense Department, and 2. The lies told on TV to work the average voter into a frenzy to manufacture consent.
Monfd
dionysus-: That's part of (2).
dionysus-
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/12/21/schumer-shutdown-trump-senate-wall-funding-ip-bts-vpx.cnn
Monfd
That's part of the lies the establishment tells you to get you to abandon your rationality due to fear so you'll give them power to do (1).
Monfd
dionysus-: What makes me think they'll be able to get along with Christians?
Monfd
They're currently doing it.
Monfd
On average Muslim Americans are more secular and progressive than several important American Christian groups.
Fuantum has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
Monfd
Again, the primary religious threat in the USA stems from evangelicals who are entirely incompatible with our republic.
dionysus-
Monfd, 217-185.
Monfd
How many Muslims are currently serving in Congress, dionysus-?
Monfd
Do you know?
Monfd
I believe its 4-7.
Monfd
Looks like it's 2.
Monfd
Do you know how many Christians there are?
rakshasa has joined ([email protected])
Monfd
Recall, only 70% of Americans self-identify as Christian.
Monfd
However 90.7% of Congress is Christian.
dionysus-
Monfd, according to PEW research, there are 2: http://www.pewforum.org/2017/01/03/faith-on-the-hill-115/
Monfd
I am looking at that same citation.
Monfd
So, Muslims have very little formal power in this nation.
dionysus-
I believe you are looking at the same data.
Monfd
While Christians have disproportionate power.
dionysus-
Monfd, this is purely an exercise in intersectional social justice that means nothing.
Monfd
That is a fallacy.
Mimmie_
Hi.
Monfd
Strawman, specifically.
itea has set topic: Monfd speaks perfect Chinese and currently is working the #philosophy Troll Desk from a correction facility for devient intellectuals.
lockie has changed mode: +t
Monfd
You're using a buzzword to weaken your opponents position to more easily knock it down.
Monfd
There is not a serious threat to American from the religion of Islam.
Mimmie_
How are you, rakky?
dionysus-
Monfd, how, exactly do you think Muslims make it to Congress. Tell me.
Monfd
The most serious religious threat to the USA is very easily from evangelical Christianity.
Monfd
dionysus-: What?
Mimmie_
Good!
dionysus-
Person A is Muslim. Person A is in Congress. How did Person A get to Congress?
Monfd
Relevance?
Monfd
dionysus-: You question is subsumed by 'How are members of Congress elected?'
Mimmie_
I am doing great.
Monfd
I assumed that was pre-requisite knowledge for this conversation.
Monfd
dionysus-: What do you want to guess are the odds the two Muslims in Congress were not elected from Muslim-majority districts in the US?
Monfd
I will guess 98%.
dionysus-
Monfd, the point that I am trying to illustrate is that your outcome-based argument is invalid. %90 of congress is Christian because they were voted there, presumably by other Christians.
Mimmie_
I'm not really a holiday person but I always end up doing holiday stuff just because it's so ingrained.
Monfd
What do you want to guess they were selected in districts that feature a majority of historical Democrat voters with a preponderance of progressive voters who don't care about the identity politics of the person they vote for, but rather their specific positions.
Monfd
I'll guess 95%.
dionysus-
Monfd, any kind of argument you have based on outcomes not being equal as a means for injustice is invalid.
Monfd
dionysus-: I agree that when you democratically elect members of Congress, the result is not democratic.
Monfd
This is a well-known result.
Monfd
It's actually a named phenomenon with notable solutions.
dionysus-
Monfd, infact, because %90 of congress people are Christian, presumably voted by %90 Christian voters, means we should not disenfranchise these voters by allow Muslims SPECIAL RIGHTS.
Monfd
Mixed-member representation is a voting system designed to specifically address this issue.
Monfd
That post contains a fallacy.
Monfd
"presumably voted by 90% Christian voters"
Monfd
The nation is 70% Christian.
20:43 Monfd
Ideally, we'd have about 70% of Congress be self-identified Christian.
Monfd
But, do to the non-optimality of our 18th century voting system, it is not.
Monfd
Recall, winner takes all voting systems is not on the Pareto frontier of voting systems, dionysus-.
Monfd
It's strictly worse than alternatives.
dionysus-
Monfd, since the data doesn't match, perhaps people are elected to congress based on voter perceptions OTHER THAN religion hmmm?
Monfd
dionysus-: It's because of FPTP.
Monfd
First past the post
lockie has changed mode: -t
Monfd
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting
dionysus-
Monfd, all of your thoughts are generally a waste of time because to change the way voting works in the United States would require a Constitutional change, and most leftists are unaware of how that ACTUALLY WORKS, and if they did, they wouldn't waste so much time and energy fighting for lost causes.
Monfd
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting#Voting_method_criteria
Monfd
FPTP possess only one of five of the desired properties of voting systems.
Monfd
dionysus-: I put you on ignore.
Monfd
It's exceptionally clear to a neutral observer I'm substantially more informed than you on this position, yet your mind is confident that my thoughts are a waste of time.
Monfd
This is a defense mechanism by you to resolve the conflict of a person who has better insight than you having different viewpoints that you.
Monfd
It's a sign of low intellectual integrity, as you're giving yourself permission to not learn from somebody who thinks differently than you.
Monfd
As you've announced you're not longer open to learning, it's best for us to end our dialogue at this time.
dorkcore
*!*@* added to ignore list
jxx has joined ([email protected])
Monfd
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation
Monfd
This voting system can specifically resolve the problem dionysus- and I were discussing.
Monfd
You'll notice that dionysus- switched between at least two theses as he attempted to move the goalposts/circlewalk.
Monfd
At some points, he was defending the thesis that the 90% representation by Christians in Congress indicates that 90% of the voters were Christian, i.e. this outcome is justified and/or good.
Monfd
At other points, he'd switch to the unrelated thesis of "It's difficult to modify voting systems in the USA".
Monfd
It would be difficult for the USA to switch to mixed member proportional representation, because our politics has been captured by two private organizations: The GOP and the Democrat Party.
Monfd
These two private organizations are highly incentivized to keep the status quo as they're optimized over decades to acquire and keep power in this arrangement.
Monfd
Which is to say, I agree with dionysus- on thesis two that it's hard to change voting systems.
Monfd
In regards to thesis one by dionysus-, no, the 90% representation of Christians in Congress is not justified nor good and easily solved.
Monfd
dionysus-: That I am able to type all of these things with impeccable quality and substantial speed is a strong heuristic for high intelligence.
Monfd
You should train yourself to have differential responses to others based off your perception of their intelligence -- to wit, being more open to those who are highly intelligent.
Sabeena
This is an old, but fun explorable viz: https://ncase.me/ballot/
rumblepez has left IRC (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
Monfd
Because this is an extremely valuable skill to have, you should superordinately highly value your ability to accurately perceive the intelligence of others.
Monfd
You'll find that this second goal requires you to recapitulate most of the ideals of standard philosophies like stoicism which, coincidentally and ironically -- per our specific topic -- are near the core of the Western project you seek to defend from Islam.
Monfd
Which is to say, more deeply than you were generally allowing your analysis to be in our conversation, when you do a poor job at estimating my intelligence and learning from me, you're actually directly assaulting an important pillar of the culture you claim to be defending.
Mimmie_ has left IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
Monfd
This is evidence, naturally, for the generally true statement "The emotional Trump supporter in the USA, while ostensibly expressing interest in defending the West from 'the outsider', is generally one of the primary threats to the USA and the generalized West -- often at a higher level than 'the outsider' who acts as their bogeyman, given the Trump supporter is typically embedded into the power systems of the USA, givi
Monfd
ng their views more chance of affecting the governing rules, as opposed to the most socially disaffected 'outsider''.
Monfd
And with that, I'll pause.