Guided Discussion, 4 January 2023

  Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Okay folx, we'll be getting started. This is a roundtable discussion. I'll moderate and answer questions as needed. You can ask me questions, but I won't always be willing or able to answer. Please keep IC information out of the discussion. And please don't flame or pick fights. It's okay to disagree, but no pot shots. If you're unsure if something is IC or not, it is best to err on the side of caution.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): (repost for people just joining)

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So, who wants to kick us off? Feel free to just start talking/asking questions/whatever.

 fopsy: I am curios as to what people think Sindome is meant to be, what it is trying to be and what it is in their experiences over the last three months? To see what people feel has changed.

 jwimpeney: It seems there might've been some major event or such from the last 3 months, and I only rejoined two weeks ago, so I'll leave my topic until later!

 Dawnshot: I know personally the various events leading up to the last few months truly threw me off my RP game and caused lots of burn out and I feel like it I'm not the only one.

 Wulf: To me, Sindome is a game about struggle, darkness, etc.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): Dawnshot, I think that's a feeling that the staff have too, for sure.

 fopsy: I have seen that Dawnshot, and I feel that meaningful impactful RP has ground to a halt or those that have struggled to do impactful meaningful RP have been met with stale reactions and lackluster responses from the world and community in general.

 jwimpeney: Sindome for me is a RP heavy Cyberpunk MUD. It's why I loved it when I played it, and why I've come back to it. I can't speak for the last 3 month's changes, and I would love to provide good meaningful RP, but the game is naturally extremely slow moving for the most part, as I'm sure you know.

 jwimpeney: Doing my best to get back into the swing of things, as fast as the UE system and other things allow me ;)

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) nods in jwimpeney's general direction.

 0x1mm: I'm at least personally more interested in hearing from senior staff at this point rather than players.

 Kalii: Same.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): About what?

 fopsy: I am in agreement. But I am not sure that is what this guided discussion is about?

 jwimpeney: So far, though, I've seen quite a few more older character be happy to interact with my character, whether that's just through giving me freebies, or giving me the time of day to have a decent RP scene beyond idle bar talk. That much never used to be the case 5+ years ago.

 jwimpeney: However, I shall now shut up and let the topic move on B)

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I'm happy to answer questions, or give opinions, but it doesn't need to be restricted to just that. I'm happy if you all weigh in on things, this is supposed to be less formal than the town halls 'stand up, ask question, get answer from staff, sit down, repeat' format.

 RatchetEffect: I believe one general concern that's popped up is the dynamic between mix and gold having cooled significantly in recent months. I'm among these, and I've noticed this shift further back than three months. The atmosphere seems to favor more cooperation than class disparity at this point in time. The observation could be a symptom of my personal rp experience though.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I believe you can '@xswitch guide' to use this as your primary channel, at which point you can xnod xto etc

 fopsy: I would put out there that there has been a huge increase in attacks topside of late, but there has been next to zero response or impact to the world.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) asks, "do you mean response from NPCs? or from PCs?"

 BubbleKangaroo: I definitely feel like things have slowed, but I might just be seeing the result of the holidays.

 fopsy: A community response, so I would say across the board. Either through lack of IC themely information spreading from privileged PC's or NPC's.

 jwimpeney: I agree with Ratchet here. I've never seen so much corporate-mix love before. It's not my personal feeling this makes co-operation makes the game better, but also, I've never been too much of a fan of hyper-oppression like there has been in the past.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "in my experience, if player characters make a big deal out of something, NPCs tend to either follow suit, or explain why something isn't a big deal"

 fopsy: I find this incredibly frustrating and disheartening to hear.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "we've definitely had some staff burnout + holidays + staff taking breaks, so there for sure is less staff around to 'react' ICly."

 0x1mm: To address the elephant: I don't think it was necessary or unavoidable that what should have been managable player and staff issues spiraled into full blown crisis and a significant loss of each.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "if people break the rules, then we enforce the punishment for breaking the rules. It doesn't matter if it is 1 person or 10 people."

 jwimpeney: Slither, it's often hard for most players to get the ball rolling imo, because being the first to toe the line often has dire consequences. Even if others follow in your wake later. Many highly powerful characters are the only ones who can get these kinds of changes rolling, even when the majority of players (I assume) would prefer the change to happen.

 Bear: I said this in the guided discussion thread, but I'm just going to reiterate it here. The game has sustained a seemingly significant loss of playerbase, and I don't know if the number will increase anytime soon (i.e. back in the 50-60s online). We, as players, will need to make adjustments to that and make the world smaller for everyone. I don't know exactly how to do that, but I'm open to suggestions.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: yeah, I hear you on that.

 crashdown: Topside has had a loss of a lot of PCs over the last three months for any number of reasons. A lot of those attacks are dealt with by the factions they target. Without going into too much IC detail as well, I think if you want a reaction from the world and the PCs, people need to do topside attacks that are more PVP-centered than PVE.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Bear]: I think that is a good callout. I've seen 30-40 people online typically. That's still a fair amount of people. The game has def had more at times, it's also had much less at times. And fun was had either way. How/where you find that fun may shift though.

 jwimpeney: Especially (and this is entirely an educated guess) when said highly powerful characters actually want this cooperation because it pays hella chyen. They're just playing their character of wanting success, even if it begins to erode at the OOC theme that we all want for the game.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: We try to moderate that via the factions these characters are involved with.

 jwimpeney: I understand. Obviously can't tell you to poke them harder, and I really don't want a return to the level of super-tyranny 6 or so years ago, but a middle ground would be nice, imo.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to crashdown]: Agreed, when GM staff are stretched thin, PvP is preferable (be it combat or political)

 Mirino: I have a feeling this is going to be just another one of those discussions where we complain about too little conflict between corporations before we go back to saying 'too much antag' in six months.

 Mirino: Corporations and mix, rather.

 fopsy: It is very easy to say PVP. But the PVP power balance topside to downside is massively onesided.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: It's a consistent balancing act of seeing what works, and it changes over time and evolves as the characters and players involved change.

 jwimpeney: I agree with all three of you here, yeah. I'm not saying it's awful and unplayable, and it's an extremely hard balancing act, too.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Mirino]: It's one of those things where striking the perfect balance is difficult, mainly because the people involved and their motivations change over time.

 alittlelonger: I've been mostly out of the loop since I'm still taking a break from Sindome, but I have been keeping up with the BGBB and the recent dip in players. I saw the BGBB post about this get-together and I just happened to be around at this time, so hi! What I do have to say is that I've always had a great time playing Sindome, but I will say OOCly it's a pretty lonely experience. In my time since Sindome, I've been getting into non-RP hobbies with a lot of interaction between friends and communities, which has helped me a ton, emotionally. I don't have any ideas for how to increase that feeling of community with respect to Sindome's rules, but if there's a way to increase the community aspect (even for someone like me who isn't currently a player right now), I think that'd go a long way towards keeping people around. Sorry I don't have anything specific to bring to the table.

 Bear: Can you tell us the amount of people who were actually banned, Slither?

 0x1mm: To my eye we've lost 56% of GM activity by 2021-22 puppet counts, and our most active developer. I think these were avoidable outcomes that were exacerabated by lack of active management until small issues became huge crises. I haven't seen much discussion or acknowlegement of whether there are or are not any administrative problems that are going to lead to staff and players leaving again.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Bear]: It's in the bans and suspensions thread, not sure the exact count.

 jwimpeney: So, on the topic of banning/feeling of community... Ignoring the fact there seems to be just flat up less staff (Which I don't really think matters as much as face value would give it), I think the big thing is trust. Little things like you have to disclose if you're IRL friends with another player, and you're not just trusted to not meta, things like that cause the playerbase to naturally distrust the admins. That's just human nature.

 jwimpeney: I'm picking a random example out of the hat, it's just the general vibe I've always felt, even though you admin folk are friendly as individuals.

 Kalii: Right, so to put it bluntly a huge number of people are banned or quit as a result of it and the game is dying for many of us that had relationships and plots with the people who got banned or quit. Is staff gonna do anything to improve the player experience of the game or speed up progression or anything at all to make up for this absolute blunder of a ban wave and hopefully salvage the game? Because you keep making terrible changes that make, at least me, not even want to bother with anything here anymore after like a year of progression and rp.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to 0x1mm]: I disagree. We have staff meetings weekly, people can slack me anytime and do, and numerous conversations have happened around behaviors that led to people leaving staff. It wasn't a big bang, it didn't fly under the radar, it wasn't a situation where a bunch of little things all the sudden became a big deal. People did their best to get along, with help from other members of staff, and management from senior staff, and in the end, didn't.

 Bear: It seems that outwardly the reputation of Sindome has reached a critical mass that we will likely not attract any new players, unless there are some changes made to either OOC communication or progression, or whatever.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: The rules are there to ensure the game is fair, could you go into a bit more detail about why that means the admin are less trusted?

 jwimpeney: I'll just let this topic of bannings finish first, then I'll reply.

 fopsy: Talking of fair and trusted. Are you willing to comment on the perception of fair treatment that players (and their characters) are given by the community?

 jwimpeney: So we don't cross wires... Unless we're done on that topic?

 RatchetEffect: With regard to staff trust, I fail to see the concern. Players come to this game knowing the rules and what isn't allowed - so long as they read. We aren't being blindsided when someone breaks the rules and receives the consequence they were told is coming.

 0x1mm: I'm not sure how losing half of the players and staff in one wave could not be considered a big deal, or a failure of adminstration. It was not necessary to ban so many people at once rather than taking a measured approach and isolate who specifically had been chronic problems, nor was it necessary for their to be attacks and inflamation anyone who had banned or quit.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Kalii]: I can't control people not following the rules and not being allowed to play anymore as a result. I'm not planning to change the way the game is run. I'm not sure what changes you mean that you dislike, so if you want to list a few that could help me provide a better response.

 RatchetEffect: It doesn't portray a faithless staff to me. If anything, it shows the opposite.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to fopsy]: I don't quite understand what I'm being asked to comment on heh.

 Mirino: I feel like passively blaming the staff is not helpful in this situation either. I remember Storm (I think it was them) doing this 'what do plot do you want to see, what do you need for it to happen' thing a year ago, and I think something like that could perhaps help the overall mood of the player base.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to 0x1mm]: We didn't lose half our players. I'd appreciate it if you didn't exaggerate as there may be people on here that don't know that it's an exaggeration. Dropping from 60 people to 40 people online doesn't equal half.

 RatchetEffect: On mention of pbase, we saw a huge surge of both new players and subs during the high of covid. It also makes sense players might be leaving again as the things they'd rather do are becoming available. There are just so many factors to look at when it comes to pbase. Sure a mass of bans might play a part, or the game state, but certainly not all.

 fopsy: to slither There is a shared perception of favouritism of certain players and player characters. That work around the borders of rulings IC and OOC seemingly with impunity to consequences that have otherwise punished players and their characters very severely.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): As for me taking pot shots at Mirage in patch notes, I've already removed those, acknowledged I was letting frustration seep into them, and spoken with Mirage about it. Not sure what else there is to do there.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I'm not going to address Mirage any further, as her and I have spoken and agreed that we are going to leave each others games alone and keep each others names out of our mouths. I don't want to break that agreement.

 Euclid: i agree. i dont think this staff animosity is helpful. obviously this doesnt just come from nowhere and there has to be work from both sides but ultimately players are responsible for fostering the play environment we want too. itll take concerted work and effort

 jwimpeney: This might be where my topic connects in a little. I speak with a little experience of running RP enforced games (I run a larp, amongst other things), and a huge part of this for me is trusting the playerbase causes players to, well, play more honestly and better.

 jwimpeney: I obviously have no clue how much staff do or don't trust us players! However, how you -appear- to trust us or not is as important, if not more important.

 Euclid: players come and go, people getting banned for rules violation happens. you have to pivot to other players

 Risikio: Small fish here, but yes. It does feel like you've lost half. If not more. The Mix feels absolutely deserted, and that is where your new players are going to be walking in. Going from 60-50 may not seem like a lot, but when you go from 23 actively Mix players to 13, it is very noticeable.

 Bear: I think when referring to the amount of people we lost, it's not just the number, it's the quality of the player, too, for the record. A lot of the vanished were high-drivers of RP. And I haven't seen this many people online often -- usually in the teens or twenties during my hours.

 jwimpeney: I think the player population loss will recover in time, imo. I've seen muds go through much rougher and recover fine.

 jwimpeney: The loss of high RP experienced characters though, is more crippling.

 RatchetEffect: It seems obvious from the recent banning of players and the publicly posted reasons they were banned, that we can't trust people to just act in good faith.

 Bear: How? Who in their right mind would join Sindome given everything that's been spread about it?

 Euclid: i remember times we had 20 online where things felt a lot livelier.

 jwimpeney: @Ratchet If you don't, then no one will act in good faith.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: I've also run several larps and it's much easier to have faith in people when they have to look you in the eye. It's just a different situation in real life, and most LARPs aren't PvP focused. They are smaller communities and it is very visible when there is a problem player that carries over between games.

 fopsy: Not wishing to step on toes. But is the discussion of players that were lost and the specifics of that at all meaningful or helpful right now?

 0x1mm: I'm one of the most active players I'm sure by any metric and I can see the negative impact this has had on the game world, and I think it needs to be acknowleged that losing players and staff in such numbers is indictative of deeper problems.

 RatchetEffect: I don't think it is, no. I'm addressing it cause it won't go away.

 fopsy: Can we try and be adult, we all know the issue, stating it over and over is not going to help or progress anything.

 jwimpeney: If I think players and admins are cheating, as a player, it's not exactly gonna encourage me to play fair and honourable (oocly), yunno? I've been on other muds where I've afk'd mid fight to the perma deth, and the other player's stopped the fight and waited for me to come back. It's not a 'mud player' thing.

 Kalii: Yeah I dunno why you keep denying it was half. You may not have literally banned half the community but you banned enough active players that it did enough community harm that the game is incredibly dead feeling now to the point it feels like more than half. Blowing it all off as "break the rules and get punished lul" seems very disingenuous to those of us that are actually trying to find a reason to stick around here

 jwimpeney: Imo, that's where this percieved animosity comes from.

 fopsy: Please, I emplore you all to consider how we can take steps forward as a community.

 crashdown: THey did the community harm, not the banning.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): I've been here 20 years, and we've had to mass ban people in the past, and it always stings. Things recover with time. But the alternative is creating an unfair playing ground by not enforcing or selectively enforcing the rules just because someone is an active player.

 0x1mm: But the banned players are not the only ones who have left.

 Bear: Yeah. That's why I asked the earlier question because it seemed like there's a -lot- more who are gone than just the numbers in the banning.

 crashdown: No, they aren't. But there's separate reasons people left, but I think we need to start from a place where we acknowledge the people who got banned broke the rules and that isn't on staff. That's on those people.

 jwimpeney: @0x1mm, @Kalii, what'd be the perfect answer you'd want to hear from the staff?

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "I'm not blowing it off. I am 1. saying it wasn't half. this is a text based game. words matter. 2. no one is laughing. I take this very seriously. I'm just not sure what you want from me. The rules are the rules. They don't not apply just because a lot of people broke them all at once."

 RatchetEffect: Can we assume for now that the banlist isn't going to change, and try to approach this from literally any other angle?

 fopsy: Can we perhaps after all this time just take a step past repeating and drilling details on what happened and maybe look at the state of the game itself, in game beyond just player numbers? Those players that remain and put in time and effort, which are most of who is here surely have more to push?

 jwimpeney: Agreed there.

 Bear: I mean, we're just going to get the same answer as every other time. Take risks, play to lose, etcetera.

 RatchetEffect: Whatever our individual feelings on it, it's clear staff won't budge there.

 fopsy: There are issues in the game that have become more apparent of late, regardless of player and staff count. It is more about perhaps empathy, and going through the motions. Lesser engagement in general. Can we think on that?

 0x1mm: Well the essentially argument I'm making is that such a significant loss of players and staff at once is indicative of administrative problems, that may cause these issues to re-arise again. But Slither disagrees and I think all I can do is point out that I believe that to be the case.

 crashdown: I think the way to heal the community now is a good chunk of empathy. Empathy for each other, whether staff or player. Engaging in both small and large plots, events, gatherings.

 0x1mm: And I should emphasize I don't mean 'staff' as a monolith.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to 0x1mm]: And what is your solution?

 RatchetEffect: Slither acknowledged that mass bans have occured multiple times over his tenure of 20 years, that it stings every time, and that the game recovers.

 fopsy: Apathy, not empathy, regarding what I just said.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to 0x1mm]: I'm here to listen, if people have suggestions, I'm open to them.

 Bear: I think the point, though, is that it's hard to see Sindome recovering given both its reputation and other things that are happening in the gaming community.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "If we end up with a smaller playerbase over all, I'm OK with that."

 jwimpeney: Agreeing with Crashdown too. Sucks that we lost a lot of people, but the way to make the game cool not only for us, but for new players, is for all of us, staff and players, to make interaction a common thing once again, give people stuff to do beyond logging in, bar roleplaying up to 3 ue, doing crates and logging off.

 fopsy: Jesus. Can we for once have a discussion that doesn't just get dominated by grievences and gets absolutely no where.

 0x1mm: Well that is something that several staff have brought up, that the game was better in some regards when it had a smaller playerbase.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "The game is more manageable with fewer players. The people that do play get more attention from GMs. And are more involved in ongoing plots."

 jwimpeney: I've personally been through two larger ban waves than this in Sindome and the game has a larger Pbase right now than I've seen before. It sucks, but the game probably isn't in danger.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "When I started playing there was 10 people or so. I've seen it grow from there, but it didn't suck when there was only 10."

 Amiga: So @fopsy, I've been off of the game for roughly 2.5 years, came back 3 months ago. I see the apathy compared to the last time I played, particularly on the mix side of things, and the feeling I'm getting is that people think they're just doing the same cycles over and over again and not having much of an impact on the game world.

 jwimpeney: (As in, I've watched Sindome's previous ban waves, and right now more people are logged on than what i'm used to)

 Kalii: I don't want attention from GMs, man. I play this game to rp with other players.

 Euclid: again. i remember playing around 20 peak and the game world felt full. because everybody was trying to create interactions and get involved

 RatchetEffect: I'll try to break down what I'm seeing in terms of apathy. Some is IC, some isn't. Gimme a second. My keyboard is broken and I'm on that struggle bus.

 spookybiitch: I think people have a hard time coming up with and executing plots.

 fopsy: That is just not true.

 jwimpeney: Agreeing with Amiga and Euclid. It's always very, very hard as a newer player to get the ball rolling, because of the UE system, you're utterly useless for many many tasks, and coming up and executing plots is more or less out of the question, is my perception.

 fopsy: Interestings plots just tend to get drowned out.

 jwimpeney: My experience these past two weeks has been sitting around, and waiting to be gifted fun RP from more experienced people. Maybe this is a me problem, but I'm unsure what else I could do.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Kalii]: What's your suggestion to improve things so that you have more people to RP with?

 RatchetEffect: I for one have been playing for a few years, and will say I absolutely no trouble coming up with plots, and all the trouble in the world executing them. Lol

 spookybiitch: Some people. Not all. I know I have a hard time thinking of ways to help propel a story.

 Bear: I think we've also seen a string of new players who have tried to make an impact on the world and then got dogpiled ICly, too.

 BubbleKangaroo: I have plots I wanna do/see, but I'm currently the wrong character for them.

 Euclid: im not big on these grievances about ue either. yeah, it comes in slow but ive spearheaded huge plots as a migrant with no carryover ue. think outside of the box

 BubbleKangaroo: So it's more a matter of time on my end.

 jwimpeney: @Euclid Some of us aren't smart but still wanna enjoy the game :D

 Euclid: ive always had an extremely apathetic view towards ue though, and thats from a history of playing mostly combat

 Kalii: From a coded, non community-driven standpoint? More things to do with noncombat skills.

 Risikio: Also, even harder as a new player because about the time you're starting to become useful, you quickly find people will just shove a Skillsoft in their skull to do it themselves instead of looking to the players wanting to fill that niche.

 BubbleKangaroo: That said, SinDome's gameplay is way different than most that I'm used to.

 fopsy: I have personally been feeding RP to the world and its players for hundreds of hours. Gathering a multitude of people to act on large plot points that were buried under party RP and social RP or simply completely ignored by the community as a whole. It has been utterly and entirely exhausting and to sit here and see people speak on there not being anything is heart breaking.

 Dawnshot: I also think that certain events/plots that are generally very easy for many people to get involved in are getting less RP than would be good.

 Bear: Another thing I was thinking about: The vanishing of players has left a pretty wide gap between high-UE players and low-UE players. And that's caused a segregation, especially in the Mix, where if you are low UE, you see the same 5-6 people around. And if you are high UE, you are either in the same faction, or doing hit-and-run combat RP. I think some of the higher UE players -could- make themselves known more, even if it means putting themselves in danger.

 spookybiitch: I am not saying there are not people doing so.

 jwimpeney: @Fopsy Why do you think people are saying this, if you're putting all this work in then? Obviously, neither side is lying.

 Euclid: would like the older more established characters to make more of a day-to-day presence.

 fopsy: Because of what I have already covered previously. and said several times now.

 RatchetEffect: Mix apathy is also topside apathy, and I see it as an IC mentality. There are very very good rpers and SD veterans that drive this narrative right now. Just like there are those same players that used to drive a very opposite IC dynamic. It takes equally skilled players to combat these kinds of players who are (and often/always will be, or recover very fast) driving that kind of dynamic. Or staff putting players to work on that task with NPC plot.

 spookybiitch: I said, some people don't know how or what to do to make a plot. It was not an attack or anything.

 fopsy: I know it is not an attack, I am just venting because everyone else is.

 jwimpeney: I got no clue how to make a plot without enough UE to make it happen. I'll openly admit it. I'd love to run plot, but IDK how to without UE and chyen.

 fopsy: I gave up on trying to be constructive or meaningful.

 Dawnshot: Find folk to fund it. Find folk who have the UE to make it happen. Thats RP.

 BubbleKangaroo: I think there's a thread or file somewhere on how to come up with plots?

 spookybiitch: You have to make friends and get them to care about whatever it is you want.

 jwimpeney: I'd love to Dawn, but I got nowhere to go and the only other player characters I see every day are other new player characters chilling in the same mix bar. We don't see the big boys. I mean, I've seen one in person in 2 weeks.

 0x1mm: I don't have a solution to your question Slither because I'm not admin. I am more interested in your view on how things have gone and you want them to go in the future. I guess I am asking if you and Johnny and Glitch and Blinder are still commited to things like the glory days.

 RatchetEffect: There's also, imo, a certain niche issue with smallworlding that ties into players making moves and being dismissed as minor/ineffective, etc. There was a recent bgbb threat about this regarding riots.

 Dawnshot: You have SIC to contact those who are not out and about - both  publically and privately.

 0x1mm: If a smaller playerbase is all that is needed to get back to a great dynamic and fun experience, then great.

 jwimpeney: Sure, Dawn, but I got no clue who to contact. Nor do the other newbies I'm with.

 Bear: Also, higher UE players -should- be contacting lower UE players.

 fopsy: Make some noise jwimpeney there are people looking for noise makers.

 jwimpeney: I agree fopsy, but that also gets you killed very quickly, and clones cost chyen!

 Amiga: From a returning player, I can say it does sometimes feel like a but of a unicorn to find a high UE character who actually has any desire to interact with you. But then once you break that gate and people realize you're worth interacting with, the floodgates open. I wonder if there's a fear of established characters interacting with newer ones because it could end up a wasted investment of time if they decide they don't like the game?

 fopsy: Then die, jwimpeney and roll with the punches, it makes people notice.

 jwimpeney: I disagree there. People dying a lot tends to indicate you're not very good if you're dying a lot lol.

 Risikio: It's one thing to say people should be driving plot and going for what they want and including others. For new players, no chy, no skills, no friends means no RP. Toss in not even understanding the systems with the broken Wiki Mind of Sindome and you've got a huge problem for new players, even those wanting to get involved.

 jwimpeney: I have first hand experience of exactly that.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to 0x1mm]: My current priority list is knocking out as many bugs as possible so that the systems we have in place are rock solid and a good foundation to continue building on. At the same time, familiarizing myself with some of the systems Mirage designed, so that we can carry on improving those as well. You and I probably have different things in mind when we say glory days. My favorite time playing and staffing the game was in 2013-205 when we had ~25-35 people online, far fewer coded systems, and topsid (truncated)

 Euclid: dying a lot = you're bad isn't remotely true.

 Adea: I honestly find the 'high-UE characters don't want to interact with us' or 'don't think we're worth the time' confusing. I've had a long tenure in Sindome, and often find that high-UE players are desperate for fresh RP outside their established circles.

 JakeyBoy: I've been told in RP that I need to try to interact with people more but I do enjoy the RP i have lately and there are events going on that I am really excited about and NPCs have been there to assist me in the RP for it so I don't things are in a dire place from my personal perspective. It is true that sometimes I am online and only 12-18 people are online with me, but I think that by itself is not a big problem, I still have people to RP with and I enjoy that time. I really hope there are more events coming up from other players and staff members that don't revolve around a bar or a club though. I think that happens a little too frequently.

 crashdown: Sometimes you have to contact the high UE characters, because they're busy with a lot of stuff or other people contacting them they don't always have the time to reach out to every new person.

 Mirino: Getting killed and still not backing up is one of the easiest ways to finding and building contacts to those relevant 'high-ue' people you're talking about. Because most of them have taken those risks as well, and rolled with the punches until they got there.

 RatchetEffect: People dying a lot are rping, for one thing. Skilled or otherwise.

 0x1mm: No I'm referring to the same as you Slither, I wasn't there obviously but if you felt it was the best time for the game then I believe you. I want the same things you want as far as a more tailoring and dynamic experience for everyone, and a management workload for staff. I kind of have doubts that player count is the only reason that changed though.

 Bear: If we are talking about ways of making the new experience player better, it has to start somewhere other than "die to get people to notice you."

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Amiga]: We've heard time and time again that there is burnout not just on the staff side but the player side to with regards to investing timein new players. We have Immy greeters and pay them, for that reason, cause it can be burnout inducing at times. Though very important for long term health of the playerbase.

 Selly says, "I just want to add, as a freshly returned player I had no clue about this ban thing. However, I did notice the lack of RP heavily associated with my character."

 Mirino: I'm telling you to make a wave, and not be scared of RP that follows up, not to 'die and wait for someone to notice you', Bear.

 fopsy: You wanted what would make a high level character notice you. Doing something, handling the consequences and moving forward  and sticking at it means SO SO SO MUCH to them.

 jwimpeney: @Amiga, as a returning player, I have the same issue. Compared to when I originally started, where many people always were looking for people to even do small jobs that don't massively benefit them ICly, but create good contacts and social bridges, the game feels very segmented right now.

 Bear: I think my personal experiences with doing that have steered me away from it, because it has not produced the results that you claim it does. But I can't get into the why and hows.

 jwimpeney: Iagree with Bear here. Every time I've taken major risks for higher level people, it's ended badly, including permadeath.

 Amiga: Yeah, that burnout from new player investment is absolutely fair. I think it's cyclical and if people discussing player losses are any indication, there might be oversensitivity from that. In my experience though that fades with time.

 spookybiitch: It sucks when higher UE people dump time, energy, and chyen into a new player and they leave randomly.

 fopsy: I agree massively spooky.

 Euclid: my experiences with risk taking and taking consquences in stride has always served me. there have been one or two characters where it has been frustrating due to certain cultural issues at the time. but overall, it works

 jwimpeney: The most success I've had in Sindome has been slowly waiting on UE and chyen, and I'm not happy with that.

 Adea: It's important to point out that gaining the attention of a veteran character need not be because of antagonist or violent reasons, either. We're meant to be operating in a very diverse, multi-dimensional atmosphere. Sometimes, the consequences can be network building rather than ending up dead.

 spookybiitch: So why in the would would people who have done so over and over again and get burned keep doing so?

 jwimpeney: Maybe I'm not socially smart enough, or I can't think outside the box enough, etc. Who knows.

 fopsy: The most success I have had, if you call it is that. Is taking risks and chances of things that might fairly. EU has actually had little to do with the best parts of the game, even at max level.

 fopsy: Might fail*

 Dawnshot: Sometimes you also just have to show you have hustle or a drive to actually do things, and when approached to do them, doing them with RP. That can be courier work. But I am 100% more willing to RP more with someone who provides me with a good experience getting me a six pack from the corner store than someone who promises and never delivers.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "this is also why i created the loan system where higher level players with chyen could loan money to other players and have it guaranteed they'd get it back"

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "i see some folx have used it, but there aren't a lot of loans out there right now, only like.. 1 active one"

 spookybiitch: People always complain about wanting RP wanting action then when these people you are bitching about not making any RP for you ACTUALLY DO IT- y'all dont show up.

 0x1mm: My hope is that senior staff across the board care about the game and players and feel responsible and invested in good outcomes for everyone; because I know for me that is what makes me as a player also feel invested in dedicating my time to driving those good outcomes as well. But I've said my piece so I'll leave it there.

 fopsy: Do not even get me started Spooky...

 Dawnshot: I do want to use the loan system more, I love that addition.

 jwimpeney: This is interesting to me. We have returning veteran players on new characters saying they'd love to have the olive branch extended, while a lot of our more existing veterans are saying they're tired extending said olive branch because of it being shunned/abused.

 Euclid: my favorite experiences in this game have been biting off way more than my character should and riding it out. more often than not i end up surprised

 spookybiitch: I have been there and continue to be there. So honestly the bitching doesn't do sh*t for me or the community.

 RatchetEffect: For newer players looking to find rp, I suggest trying to network. Ask around. High UE players aren't necessarily hubs of rp, and the ones that are don't always broadcast it. If you want to find them, you can ask of others around you...or in sic - that place everyone is, who you can talk to about x y z work, etc. Or work from the ground up and track down that character's staff/friends/aquantances, etc. The sleuthing itself is rp, and you can meet a lot of others on the way. Definitely don't be afraid of using pubsic if the only visible players around you are immies.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to 0x1mm]: I can say with 100% assurance the senior staff care deeply about the game and want you all to have a good time playing it, and growing with it.

 Euclid: if you can get people behind you and youre working towards a cause people take note

 Euclid: and a big part of that is providing people with interesting and engaging RP and not just some two dimensional antagonism

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "yeah, when I'm playing a new character, which I do from time to time to make sure I don't forget the experience, I know it is sometimes hard to find RP. taking courier runs, selling paydata or even just giving paydata to other characters to build rep with them, that can be good ways to get involved in things."

 fopsy: Again I cannot stress this enough. Rolling with the punches is pretty much the biggest thing I look for in players.

 Euclid: i don't think that means you have a wrong way of playing or anything @jwimpeney. the moo accomodates a lot of styles.

 Risikio: And spookybitch the same can be said about those claiming to be driving RP. The higher end UE characters realistically treat immies like sh*t, and claim to be trying to drive RP by focusing on them but realistically its because new players don't understand the economics of the city, and can get seriously ripped off.

 spookybiitch: Do they though? How many times have people asked during high activity hours for a runner and no one says anything.

 jwimpeney: It definitely seems like the experienced people feel like the newer people aren't interested, while at the same time the newer people feel the same about the experienced.

 0x1mm: I appreciate that reassurance Slither. For what it's worth, I'm not really referring to you or being critical of you personally. I recognize the hard work you've personally invested these last few months.

 Mirino: imho: Gangs are the easiest way to get involved in bigger plots without needing any UE (because who cares if you get punched in the face), while providing conflict and RP for the whole city. Everybody loves gangers.

 spookybiitch: if you interact with the little running jobs people get to know your name and you have a better chance of getting better RP.

 Selly says, "You want RP, create it. Sometimes it goes the way you want, sometimes it does not. In the end, it's RP. The main reason why we are here. Chances are, if everyone is complaining about the same thing, I am sure you will get someone will jump at the chance to be involved one way or another."

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "and plots do not need to be big things. a plot could be as simple as 'get a pizza and explore the sewers'. it becomes a plot when you make it one by plotting and planning and discussing what you might find and how you might survive and what you do if you are attacked."

 Euclid: without going into detail i will say i have been extending a lot of opportunities and work lately and people just... have not really been biting. i am trying

 jwimpeney: Well, you'll be glad to know I've literally taken every single public SIC 'don't need UE for this' job I've seen ;)

 Amiga: I want to stress that I have not actually found it terribly difficult to interact with more established characters, but I'm a veteran RPer, even if my time in SD is relatively low. I do however tend to see a LOT of new players just unsure of what to do beyond sitting in a bar though.

 Euclid: and literally all i am out to do is create good experiences for people.

 Wulf: I've been trying to reach out to immies and getting little to no response, or 'im scared', and using something I have to try and promote RP as much as I can.

 jwimpeney: Sadly, with the current veteran players I'm in contact with, their advice for me has been 'I might have stuff for you in the future, but we need you to get better before we can do X/Y/Z together.'

 jwimpeney: Nothing against said vet players tho.

 RatchetEffect: Ganging is yes, very good for that. And it provides an NPC cushion to give you strength without needing a mass of UE. IF and only if you're combat oriented.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to 0x1mm]: Thanks!

 fopsy: Jwimpeney I personally do not care about peoples EU.

 jwimpeney: Oh, maybe there should be non combat slots for gangers? Like someone who makes them their drugs, or someone who heals them up!

 fopsy: I only care that you will be there if you get f*cked over and stick around after failurer.

 Dawnshot: Don't need slots to do that for a gang.

 jwimpeney: Like, you'd be the Snake healer-choom, and a full blooded member, but you just don't fight on the front lines.

 fopsy: Because anyone can build EU and stats.

 Mirino: Why do you believe you need combat UE for ganging? Just because nobody tried before you?

 Euclid: mm. ganging is amazing for a lot of things but i have both played a noncombat ganger and had an amazing time, and i would also say that 'npc cushion' doesnt really exist right now

 Adea: I think non-combat slots for gangers would take away from the existing roles in-game that serve the same purpose.

 Risikio: +1 to what jwipeney said. Oh thank you for being a runner and spending forty five minutes riding the lev for a 500 chy handout. Maybe in the future I'll have work for you and you might even earn another shiny quarter!

 Euclid: they have tried though. i literally did it

 0x1mm: People have definitely tried non-combat gangers.

 jwimpeney: @Risikio Exactly.

 Dawnshot: Or any faction for that matter.

 0x1mm: I would not call any of them highly successful.

 RatchetEffect: I don't either. In fact, the vast vast majority of my rp involves people with far less UE than me. I rarely rp on the same team as people in my UE bracket with only a couple of exceptions.

 Euclid: i found great success with mine but ganging used to be far more of a communal RP-driven thing than the redtext push its gravitated towards

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): you don't have to be a combat heavy character to be in a gang

 fopsy: I personally run a acharacter that is the polar opposite stats to what they actually achieve. Soooo.

 jwimpeney: @Slither, the player perception is that you have to be, amongst the people I bump into ICly at least.

 spookybiitch: I literally asked someone to do a none danger job and they told me they were scared and they didn't want to do it.

 Euclid: the height of ganging for me, gangers were RP faucets and community-drivers first and foremost over beatsticks and it seems that a lot of community expectations have shifted on that

 Wulf: Knowing how to fight a bit is good, but I've seen a few non-combat heavy gangers do well.

 jwimpeney: That's just one person, Spooky.

 fopsy: Jwimpeney You are litterally being told OOC that it does not matter. But you have to make it happen.

 spookybiitch: No that happens a lot.

 RatchetEffect: I was forced to commit to fighting when I rped a ganger.

 Selly says, "I am just going to put this out there... I will do my best to engage/start more RP for the players around me going forward."

 RatchetEffect: Admittedly, by other players.

 Euclid: sometimes i wish i could discuss characters/events that are well well gone from the public consciousness just to delineate some things.

 TwistedAkai: I want "a plot could be as simple as 'get a pizza and explore the sewers'" to be immortalized somewhere because I know I certainly never thought of it like that before.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "i'm not saying you won't have to fight as a ganger, i'm saying being good at it is not a pre-req for being one IMO"

 jwimpeney: @Fop I know, friend. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying the general playerbase -perception- is that it isn't possible.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: it's a fair point.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "i'll make a note of it to discuss with the rest of the staff."

 Euclid: it would be so much easier to illustrate a point without resorting to vagueries when its ic information that couldnt possibly change anything now

 Dawnshot: Perceptions tend to stay perceptions until someone breaks them, which is a matter of if you take the easy road of following those before you, or trying something new. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't.

 fopsy: As things have settled a bit, is it possible to discuss reactions to  people making the effort to put together big plots. So they feel encouraged to do more in future?

 0x1mm: I don't feel like the 'anything is possible' mantra is all that helpful to new players though.

 Euclid: i agree dawnshot, but often times people do break perceptons and then time passes and people forget again.

 Dawnshot: This is true, but thats the fun part!

 jwimpeney: I agree with 0x1. I think some of these bits of advice come from players much smarter than me lol.

 AlteredPrism: As a new player I feel pretty aimless. Although people have been trying to help me along by providing advice. It's all just a little too much.

 fopsy: from a personal view point a lot of personal work has gone into creating plots for large amounts of the community across all sectors and the response has been very underwhelming.

 Plebe: For those people talking about themselves as RP pushers, I think its great that you actively contribute. But I don't think the RP that's missing is Chyen related. What's missing are people being involved in meaningful, conflict- related RP, I think. I know that's been my issue.

 RatchetEffect: I think there are other skills - even noted ambiently, that gangers perform without fighting. My personal opinion is that ultraviolence needn't be a requisite at all for it. But that's another topic, Ithink.

 fopsy: Plebe THis is EXACTLY what I am talking about!

 0x1mm: In general I think new players want to know what is possible and be told how to do it. We shouldn't expect all new players to be master roleplayers with unlimited appetites for novelty and risk.

 fopsy: I think I made it my mission over a year ago now to be a driver for that.

 Adea: Again, I'd like to point out that 'activity' can mean both conflict and non-conflict RP. There's a good deal of room for thinking outside the box and creativity when it comes to developing an interesting IC environment.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to RatchetEffect]: Artist perhaps, for graffitis. tailor for gang colors. medic for obvious reasons.

 jwimpeney: I've seen people join the game same time as me, and catapault to massive success while I'm still stripping in a bar and they run an entire faction. They can tell you how they got down that path to success, but doesn't mean other people can repeat it necessarily.

 RatchetEffect: Absolutely @ ox1mm

 Euclid: @0x1mm back to my point about me wishing i could just tell people about sh*t that has been done in the past that isnt tied to anything IC anymore.

 Dawnshot: Slither, maybe throwing a bone to gangers to push for that would be interesting. Graffiti murals via canvas, those sorts of things, really brighten certain areas.

 jwimpeney: Exactly, Slither.

 Euclid: sometimes i just want to tell people 'this has happened! you can do this! this is how it can work!'

 fopsy: Do people actually genuelly give a shiz about mix vs topside conflict?

 svetlana: I've gotten some really good RP with some newer characters, just by bringing up deep topics with them.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Dawnshot]: Yeah I put it on the staff meeting list to discuss.

 jwimpeney: 'Yo we looking for a snake artist. We all so punchy we can't draw right, you come join our gang, we keep you safe, you do awesome art for us, yeah?'

 TwistedAkai [to Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither)]: Pick-pockets, too.

 svetlana: Also fopsy +111111

 TwistedAkai [to fopsy]: I do!

 jwimpeney: I give like, 50% sh*t. I don't want mix-topside war, but I want there to be IC hatred between the two, basically.

 fopsy: Because I feel like near every point I have raised in the last hour and nine minutes has been promptly over looked regarding it.

 Dawnshot: I care less about direct mix vs corporate conflict and more for faction versus faction conflict, which may or may not be truly mix v corpie but can be hidden by it.

 BubbleKangaroo: Mix vs. Topside feels like a forced 'faction' PVP

 Bear: I don't care about mix-topside conflict, no.

 RatchetEffect: I care about class/sector conflict.

 Euclid: mix-topside conflict is great but pretty far down my priorities.

 Plebe: Topside division is hard too, fopsy. I don't know where you are. But i know i've come up with a few ideas and they get shot down. Maybe they're bad ideas? Could be. I keep hoping staff will help nudge one forward a little so it isn't just "party time" RP up there. Not that the parties arent GREAT! Just different strokes for different folks.

 svetlana: I care about class/sector conflict too

 fopsy: Like. I am exhausted completely and utterly driving RP that seemingly people ask for but no one actually seems to care about.

 Dawnshot: I think class divide should be present, but direct conflict I am less interested in.

 RatchetEffect: Class conflict is one of the biggest themes of Cyberpunk in general.

 0x1mm: I was pretty vocal about throwing out the Mix v Topside conflict, but I was pretty vocal about throwing out the divide and that didn't exactly play out how I imagined.

 Euclid: i absolutely want to see it but i think there are deeper cultural issues.

 svetlana: I wish there was more animosity towards the mix from topsiders...Or just more reaction from topsiders, even

 Selly says, "I feel there is not much conflict atm and would like to see more."

 jwimpeney: Cyberpunk is literally about classism replacing all other forms of bigotry.

 Bear: I would rather have corporations use mixers for class warfare against other corps, really.

 BubbleKangaroo: Class conflict and all is good. I just feel like some of the current perception of Mix vs. Topside is to... not interact with the other side. At least on the surface.

 fopsy: There is HUGE amounts of conflict but as I have said many times during this discussion there was almost zero reaction to it. THousands killed, no one even says 'Boooo bad people'

 BubbleKangaroo: What Bear said.

 Dawnshot: Like watching gangers throw themselves against the long arm of the law is a revolving cycle that has bored me, but having RP over mixers bumping shoulders or the benefits and downsides of having a mixer in your back pocket you use to deniably get your boss fired.

 TwistedAkai: Honestly, the biggest problem I have when trying to play is that my life keeps blindsiding me with some of the worst timing, and I worry it makes it look like I don't care, but I DO.

 Amiga: I think that mix/topside conflict is, at least for me, one of the driving themes of the game. But the limited ways in which they interact (ie, repeated bombings, in my experience) just seem tried and uninteresting.

 BubbleKangaroo: I wanna see shadowrunners.

 RatchetEffect: The divide itself is the source of conflict here. Mixers, as a state of being, have a fewer legal rights than corporate citizens, as a root example.

 crashdown: Topside has shrunk recently because of September. A good chunk of the conflict has been PVE over the last few months. It's hard to get engaged with attack NPC, run, tbh. You're asking a lot of others when this happens.

 0x1mm: I argued against Mix v Topside because I felt it created two separate games that didn't overlap enough to feel particularly cohesive. However once the conflict cooled a bit, they still didn't feel all that cohesive so it's likely I was wrong about the causes.

 jwimpeney: It's an easy path to take, BubbleKangaroo. Mixers don't want to attract corpo attention because then the nine million crimes they've comitted might get noticed. Or they might just get shot or some sh*t. Topsiders ignore Mixers because ICly, they're meant to distance themselves from them.

 svetlana: I think it would be fun if corps hired anti-corp characters to fight against rival corps

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Plebe]: xhelp and ask a GM for some pointers, or leave an @note asking for some pointers, if you haven't already.

 crashdown: It would, svetlana, yeah.

 jwimpeney: @svet Absolutely.

 Bear: I don't think topside has the population to support much of that, though.

 Bear: Both in amount and type of PC.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to fopsy]: You sound frustrated. I'm sorry.

 ReeferMadness: From my perspective, their has been a huge loss of knowledge in how to move the game world ICly both from a Staff and Player standing. The actions I see taken by both are proving to be really inert for a variety of reason but no one is really in a position to help them at this point.

 fopsy: @crashdown THe staff should be filling in those gaps though. Even just a few choice pubsic shouts rather than pubsic shouts about someones dick or something.

 Dawnshot: I agree - a shadowrunner kind of thing with middlemen (maybe even a specific middlemen role at corps...requisitions perhaps?) gathering together teams for deniable things would be good for player led plots.

 jwimpeney: An ideal thing for me would be corp PC's hirint mix PC's to f*ck over other corp PC's, right? That'd give topsiders more to do?

 Bear: It can be done now. There doesn't need to be a system designed for it.

 Bear: It just doesn't happen much.

 jwimpeney: Even if it's a corp NPC encouraging the corp PC to do it, like 'we want to f*ck NLM this much by the end of the month, get to it'

 RatchetEffect: I'll be honest, I'm a bit over the ultraviolence pvp rp. I'm looking to rp other ways of getting things done than just - attack this PC/NPC to make a splash.

 Amiga: Compared to when I previously played I find the interaction between topside and mixers actually MASSIVELY refreshing, it makes it feel more like one unified game instead of two separate ones. The problem I see is a lack of impact the two sides can have on each other's worlds.

 svetlana: Yeah that's been a lot more informal interaction between corpies and mixers at parties and I like that

 Dawnshot: May be good to push the...various needs for corps to acquire other corps macguffins.

 fopsy: I also add that actions have been guided in part by the Staff, they have eyes on stuff months in advance. If this is an issue where the player base is unable to react appropriately. Shoves from the Staff as to how best to move would be appreciated. They are privy to much more information to help with that.

 jwimpeney: It's not my thing, but that's a sobjective opinion.

 Dawnshot: Would provide reason for folk to make deniable teams to acquire things.

 batko: i also argued against mix vs topside because i felt that the general class awareness of the mix led to an unthemely deal of mixers being way too cohesive and anti-corporate as a matter of politics rather than as a matter of jealousy and spite, leading to them not even wanting to take their money out of principle, which isn't cyberpunk, but here we are where the other side of it is that nobody takes the money anyways and nobody is offering the money, nobody does any conflict with corporate players as far as i can tell, though the few who do get spanked for it

 BubbleKangaroo: I know I was amazed to find out Fixers in SD are less topside/Mix intermediaries than they are salesmen.

 crashdown: But fopsy. You're asking a lot of staff right now. There are four GMs. And I think Tangerine is on a break, so that's basically down to three GMs and possibly a support GM. There's nothing stopping you from hiring people to react that way and send out those messages.  I also tihnk you might be misunderstanding my comment.

 Plebe: @jwimpeney, Yes. But there isn't a lot of intermingling topside right now due to a diminished player base.

 Euclid: you can take corporate money and should.

 0x1mm: Yes I basically agree Batko. I called it DeathBall Teams, to me it was too neat and didn't leave much room for factional disputes.

 svetlana: Very very true batko. and that hurts RP. There's this stigma surrounding taking corporate money. Why?

 jwimpeney: @plebe I don't think it's the number of players causing the lack of mingling.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "i'm like 2 pages of messages behind. Sorry if my responses are coming out of sync. Trying to keep up."

 fopsy: You speak like I have not already been trying. I say Community as a whole.

 jwimpeney: Guys, let's take five minute pause and let slither catch up?

 RatchetEffect: And I absolutely agree with Reefer on lack of knowledge making the world move. I'm a tenured player and high UE, and I am woefully lacking in this myself.

 svetlana: What if a corp paid you to badmouth another corp? Would taking that money be 'corp money' if it helps both your cause and the corp's goals?

 Euclid: a lot of the people creating stigma around corp money is generated by people taking corporate money if i had to wager.

 ReeferMadness: To Batko and 0x1mm's point, that is a problem with any successful faction.

 ReeferMadness: If what you're doing works - the meta of the change changes.

 svetlana: I've been shamed for 'taking corp money' when I actually came out of the interaction feeling good about fleecing the corps

 ReeferMadness: Having capable leaders in every faction helps balance that meta out.

 ReeferMadness: When one or two factions rise above the others it becomes obvious and considerations need to be taken.

 Risikio: +1 For BubbleKangaroo from someone who has 'Become a Mr. Johnson' as a life goal. The problem is the level of anonymity of who is working for who found in Shadowrun is somewhat missing in SD.

 spookybiitch: I try but yes, like Reefer said the knowledge on how to do things is not always there. This is my first RP game so even though I am higher UE it is still my first time playing.

 ReeferMadness: Everyone is trying to get you to drink their kool-aide but if most of the playerbase drinks one flavor - the meta gets borked.

 batko: i dont think there's a stigma about taking corp money anymore, but now that there's no mixer pushback on corporations there's just no conflict heading topside, and the few who do any conflict towards corporations just kinda get smacked down because 'corporation big and powerful', which makes everyone just kinda give up

 Dawnshot: You can be fully anonymous in SD if you so choose.

 Euclid: idea: would some sort of roleplay primers help

 svetlana: yeah it's been a pretty lonely path lately on the anti-corp end of things

 fopsy: These hit and run hits on NPC's is a symptom of that imbalance @crashdown or at least the perception of it.

 Euclid: like guides with example scenarios and such

 ReeferMadness: I, honestly, don't think anyone knows how to do guerilla warfare anymore.

 Dawnshot: A good fixer with many faces may be what you are looking for BubbleKangaroo and Risikio

 Euclid: giving people expectations/prompts on what to do

 svetlana: I would be very grateful for mentoring on that Reefer

 ReeferMadness: And it results in a lot of one-sided sh*ttiness.

 batko: these things get lost to the ether, reefer

 Wulf: That's the thing, corps are supposed to be powerful. It's 'playing to lose'. Style is forever.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) asks, "we've tried from a staff perspective to ICly and OOCly reinforce that Mixers should take corpie money and corpies should be offering it. What would help with that, beyond us continuing to say it?"

 jwimpeney: Saying 'we're bad players' sadly isn't going to help the situation improve to how you want it :(

 fopsy: @reefermadness It is incredibly challenging in the current climate is all I can say.

 BubbleKangaroo: I'm sure it probably is, Dawn. I only have the experience of 1 character to pull from, too.

 Euclid: they do get lost. which is why i think some sort of mentoring or guides would be very helpful

 ReeferMadness: Yeah, I'm conscious of it and balancing some RL stuff but I 10000% agree.

 Euclid: tying back to my previous complaint that i wish i could simply talk about events that are long-dead and knowledge of wouldnt disrupt anything IC at all

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) asks, "should we walk back the changes to make sic alias hopping have a cooldown? did that have a negative impact?"

 Wulf: The struggle is fighting a battle you know you'll lose, doing it anyway.

 Dawnshot: Slither, it may be good to push macguffins from various factions being needed by other factions to push that.

 jwimpeney: @Slither, perhaps have corporate characters pushed/rewarded for doing the behaviour you want them to?

 ReeferMadness: The coded systems aren't the issue, Slither.

 svetlana: Ooh I am so confused by the new SIC alias WHO list thing, it's messed up my hopping patterns

 fopsy: I am not sure that really has to much effect on anything Slither.

 crashdown: There's so many ways to avoid that cooldown it isn't an issue imo.

 crashdown: Or rather avoid being caught.

 svetlana: Unless I'm just reading wayyyy too much into it

 batko: i do think the mix has become more amicable to actually working with corps, i just dont think there's much work to be done with corps, and while the mixer attitude towards corporations has shifted away from the pitchfork and torch approach against anyone who even is on a phone call with a corpie, corpies still get a lot of protection and shelter from their corporations in a world that is already more amicable to them as a result

 ReeferMadness: We have a severe lack of knowledge on how to interact with Sindome meaningfully at the higher tiers and it's showing.

 Wulf: I've done lots of things I knew were a "bad idea", it was fun, just let go.

 jwimpeney: Yeah, there's no code changes needed, I think overall, it seems like the playerbase wants to get a little direction on how best to achieve their/their faction's goals by experienced PC's/NPCs?

 fopsy: I agree ReeferMadness but there is simply ZERO mentors.

 Amiga: The change from a couple years ago in terms of taking money and topside interaction is VERY noticeable, and I feel like, extremely positive. But it does seem like older versus newer players are a little factional on it.

 Bear: I agree with Reefer, yes.

 spookybiitch: *Agrees with Reefer.* Sorry guys :(

 Euclid: would be happy to volunteer for something like that. and Reefer would be an excellent candidate RL balancing notwithstanding

 RatchetEffect: Same. Ironically, I've made IC choices that frequently led me away from mentorship - though didn't realize it often when it happened. Until after the fact. And have also sought it from other seasoned players, who subsequently permed out or left before gleaning anything about 'moving the world'.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "maybe we need an @plot command which you can run to give you a random plot idea, like get a pizza and explore the sewers lol. "

 ReeferMadness: My suggestion would be to place the right people in factions. Even temporarily with vacation characters to help things out.

 jwimpeney: Especially due to the 'FOIC' nature of things.

 svetlana: Omg I love that idea

 Bear: Seems like a lot of veteran characters are clustered together.

 fopsy: I think that is a good idea if those people are willing and trusted not to use it as an advantage in their play.

 crashdown: Unfortunately yes because of IC Stuff, but that'll fix itself in time.

 BubbleKangaroo: Exploring the sewers is great fun.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "okay cool, no changes to sic alias needed. hehe"

 fopsy: Slither I do not think there is a coded solution to this.

 ReeferMadness: Their are some other way to dance around it too but I need to think it through and write some @notes.

 Euclid: i dont think random hooks are enough. i think people need bigger picture understanding of what they can do

 batko: i arrived at the 'late game' to realize that high UE combat is some extremely time-consuming stuff unless you want to just knock sand castles over and target people vastly below you in UE, which is unfortunate, because i am getting a lot busier irl!

 BubbleKangaroo: I know that, speaking for myself, I've just been burnt out the last couple months from a combination of holiday stress + waiting for change.

 jwimpeney: I don't like the idea of this @plot command if it's just going to be done to encourage solo play. I don't think anything needs to change code wise. I just feel like a) High level players want some direction beyond 'get even more rich and powerful'. Either from their NPC faction leaders, or from 3rd party events like ' uh oh, sudden sh*t thing happened to something I care about, I gotta fix it'.

 BubbleKangaroo: But also I want to see shadowrunners pink mohawk their way through the Dome

 svetlana: A lot of my frustration lately is that I seem to just be throwing everything at the wall to see if it sticks i.e. gets a reaction. I kinda think having more corpie characters might fix it...?

 jwimpeney: And b) Newer players feel like there's not much they can do but wait for the story to come to them.

 fopsy: The thing I find is. Conflict between the Mix and Corps drive so much RP. You blow up something topside, it gives topside a chance to investigate, to hire out mixers to cain on their homies to pay out that money and sow more conflict and distrust shake things up. When there is not that conflict or that conflict is not engaged with. it breaks down.

 0x1mm: Topside was pretty recently the most populated part of the game.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): one idea i will float to the other staff is: offer vacation characters with middlebe UE to veteran players and put them in opposing factions so they can bring their IC experience in and give them a mandate of training the next generation.

 Bear: I would actually like a @plot idea or something similar, even if it's just a randomly generated thought. There have been other games that have used it as a plot hook to even start a conversation with someone, for example.

 0x1mm: I would describe that period as pretty slow in general. I don't think more players actually makes for more storytelling a lot of the time, though it does help to fill vacancies quickly.

 svetlana: Maybe CorpSec could use a re-awakening. Even if something happens when a PC is not awake, doesn't mean they can't dig into it and investigate after the fact

 RatchetEffect: Regarding story coming to you, jwimpeney, marketing yourself in pubsic is a great way to ensure rp comes to you.

 fopsy: I agree with Svetlana. Even if NPC's are getting killed, the Staff should be able to give plot hooks to chase down those involved. Perhaps the bombs they used have traces that an explosives expert could trace, or NPC's have statements or come forward with statements of things from player notes.  ETC.

 jwimpeney: Agreed, I don't think the player numbers are too relevant here, imo.

 Bear: You think, "You want to take a friend for a dinner at the Meltdown," or something, lol.

 Plebe: @fopsy - But this RP usually gets swallowed up by security PC's and doesn't get much attention past that.

 batko: i dont think there is any knowledge in opposing factions that would help much, i think there's just a total vacuum at all levels

 batko: myself included, in some ways

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: the @plot command was partly a joke, but it seems like people do need something to help set expectations for how to get involved with other players. the pizza + explore the sewers example is one that requires 2-3 other people for it to be fun.

 jwimpeney: @Ratcher I agree somewhat, but there's certain kinds of character that don't gel with that kind of play, and I myself suck at it.

 fopsy: It is is still RP Plebe.

 fopsy: Which is a start.

 Dawnshot: That would be interesting Slither, I'd appreciate that. I feel like having some actual guidance in faction play especially in hire roles would be appreciated. I felt underprepared for things when I was placed into roles.

 jwimpeney: @Slither, yep, got you lol

 svetlana: Plebe that's a great point and I'd also like to try and involve more non-combat corpie  PCs in my plots

 Bear: Also I think offering vacation characters with higher than normal starting UE to veterans would not help some of the preconceived notions of favoritism.

 Euclid: @jwimpeney i dont think everyone has to be that kind of player. but i think more people having the knowledge to do that - and some people have the will and not the knowledge - creates a livelier playspace for everyone.

 Euclid: especially since more of that means more opportunities to bring in people who prefer to follow

 jwimpeney: Agreed there, and yes, it'll make the game better, I'm just trying to figure out what -I- can do as well, you know? :)

 crashdown: A good way to do that is to target PCs and not NPCs. Yeah, you can get info from your boss, etc when an NPC is attacked/killed but the truth is that a PC being attacked/targeted leads to far more RP. That PC is always around, it doesn't need a puppet, they feel personally affected and emotionally invested, which means the people close to them are also that way.

 RatchetEffect: I understand. I -hated- using pubsic when I started this game. I avoided it like the plague, and I did honestly, have to overcome that with time and rp. I know that isn't everyone's answer though.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) nods in RatchetEffect's general direction.

 jwimpeney: Exactly, we agree :)

 ReeferMadness: I can't echo Crash'd sentiment enough. PC's > NPC

 fopsy: @crashdown I go back to my earlier point Targeted PC's tend to be almost impossible to actually hit. Look at some of the unclaimed bounties.

 Amiga: What if instead of a @plot command, there was some kind of way to discuss where you are ICly with a staff member and have staff discuss with a player potential plots they could go down, like a consultation? Or would that be too staff intensive?

 ReeferMadness: No one cares you blew up Bob the Lobby Lizard NPC but blow up a player and people will care.

 jwimpeney: I really, really do wish I knew a way to provide and get into other story that wasn't 'be extroverted', but I've not found it yet.

 svetlana: Great point Reefer

 spookybiitch: Although I will say my last couple of interactions with an NPC they have been helpful in guidance and what not.

 Bear: Don't think there's enough staff for that to be possible right now, Amiga.

 svetlana: I think Amiga you could seek out PCs who might share similar interests and brainstorm plots together with them

 jwimpeney: I'd absolutely kill for Amiga's idea, but I imagine it's far too difficult on staff time.

 Euclid: personally i find it very frustrating to see these echoes of 'you need UE' 'you shouldnt be loud if youre weak' 'you shouldnt kick nests thatll kill you' when ive spent most of my years here rallying against those preconceptions and doing well

 fopsy: I also put out that putting out masses of chyen, and reaching out to many PC's has not yielded those PC attacks either. THIS IS NOT THROUGH LACK OF TRYING.

 Amiga: Again, totally not something I need, but something a lot of new characters I've seen express anxiety about, and might help with retention.

 ReeferMadness: I feel your pain, Fopsy.

 Euclid: and if anything like more documentation would help, or mentoring sessions, or anything, im all for it

 svetlana: Mood Fopsy

 fopsy: In the Mix there are just very very very very very few motivated players that can ACTUALLY do these things.

 0x1mm: Bounties are usually pretty disconnected from the reality of killing expert players.

 RatchetEffect: I think higher UE for vacation characters would be feasible on the basis that they are playing as a temp staff/storyteller role. Like a staff member who's sole purpose is to drive rp and not just profit from it. There are players in the community with the knowledge and honesty for that, I think. But a staff position.

 slackbot@slack: Fopsy

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to Bear]: Perhaps some kind of limited time engagement, where the PC character is only around for a couple of weeks in order to get a plot going, train people, etc. spread the IC knowledge that people have gained on previous characters about how to plot. I don't think there is really another way to 'fix' the situation currently if people don't feel there are IC mentors, unless we start training people OOCly, which is boring and tedious.

 HerreraOutlaw: Regarding UE, I would be in favor of shortening the time it consumes to reach max. This would not only allow players to be on a more even field, but also encourage rerolling, since the investment towards a "capable" character is less. Additionally, with easier UE gain, the fear of interaction (aka dying due to plot involvement) is reduced. (This may be off-topic, forgive me).

 Bear: That might work, yeah. Or Ratchet's idea is interesting, too.

 crashdown: I don't disagree. I went through a year and a half period of getting very little interest in a certain plot and taking risks. It happens. I got frustrated, but ultimately I understand there'll always be reasons I don't know why people won't do something. All I can do is try to gauge interest and see if something'll happen. I get the fear of trying to take hits at people who seem unhittable, but that's where thinking outside the box happens.

 ReeferMadness: If you look at most of the Topside vs Mix action taken over the years and years - lack of player enlistment is a huge thing. So, mass action became a non-starter. It's a bummer but it's not a new thing.

 Euclid: the only problem with that, Slither, is you'd need to limit it to very trustworthy players. and that might cause frustrations with people who already feel that favoritism is at play.

 jwimpeney: I agree with Herrera. One of the reason Fopsy is not seeing any PC attacks is because declaring war against another Player is very, VERY dangerous, could end you permed, and no amount of Chyen is going to convince me to risk being permed

 jwimpeney: When I have a 2+ year old character

 ReeferMadness: That makes me sad.

 Bear: I agree shortening the UE cycle would generate more RP, ultimately, but I don't think that's going to change.

 jwimpeney: Hey, just my opinion, maybe I'm a one off :)

 ReeferMadness: You're not. It's a huge culture issue in the game.

 crashdown: Perming is so rare. Most - not all - aren't going to perm you for 'wars'.

 jwimpeney: I mean, there's no 'right' opinion on this topic, Reefer. It's subjective of how much you mind risking your character's perma-life.

 fopsy: I would say 90% of perming are players taking their own life.

 Euclid: ime its pretty tough to get permed even when youre aiming for that oocly

 ReeferMadness: Waiting until you have enough UE to do something and then being too afraid to anything to risk your high ue character is a very real paradox for a lot of players and it creates a culture of inaction.

 jwimpeney: I mean, even not explicitly perming, but banishment, or just being chain killed over and over until you're left with nothing. It's very easy for a player to make another player's time miserable.

 spookybiitch: Chain vatting is something I will never understand

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "players need to be aware of the effect they are having on other players and seek ways to continue to make war rp fun"

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "it's not a new problem"

 Pavane: A bigger risk than perming in the Mix is being driven out of social RP.

 Euclid: if you are playing a character  that has an intact self-preservation intact but takes lots of risks even if youre behind the keyboard like 'oh yep this is permtown' it is excrutiatingly hard if youre playing with players with any empathy at all

 Euclid: instinct*

 batko: most permanent lethality stems from people perming their own character, not from getting permed

 Euclid: yeah the fear of perming is super overblown.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "yeah we don't see a lot of players perming players."

 crashdown: It does happen, but it's rare. Very rare.

 jwimpeney: It's not a fear of perming. It's a fear of lowing weeks/months of progress.

 jwimpeney: I shouldn't have used the word perming.

 Euclid: how would you do that.

 batko: and it's also insanely difficult to get permed if you don't want to be

 spookybiitch: War is only fun when both sides can actually . . .do something.

 fopsy: @slither On that exact note. I want to raise favouritism again. There are certain characters that have for a long time made conflict agonising for many of the player base and yet so little is done to address this, and have been perceived as favourites.

 Euclid: if youre updating any sane amount then simply losing things is usually not that important

 ReeferMadness: I think the reality is if you never take meaningful risks you'll never make meaningful progress beyond the letters in your @stats.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to fopsy]: I honestly don't know who you are talking about.

 Bear: I think there needs to be more mentors to teach newer players like me how to takae risks.

 jwimpeney: maybe it's not so bad for more veteran players, but for newer people, you could lose almost a month's work in chyen, etc.

 RatchetEffect: Banishment isn't too too common either unless you're a seasoned player, as it requires more one on one staff rp. Uses resources they don't have.

 fopsy: I cannot very well say who.

 batko: to some extent, reefer, i agree, but i think all the people who take risks end up realizing that it payoff wasn't worth the stress anyways

 HerreraOutlaw: A big issue I see with combat chars is the kit rebuild investment. Could factions more readily resupply these chars, at least occasionally/in times of conflict? It'd also give more weight to factions, for better or worse.

 Euclid: @jwimpeney that has happened to me so many times and it pays back because people take note of you and extend you opportunities

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to fopsy]: Right. So I dunno how we can engage on that topic here heh. Email me? I may take a few days to respond.

 RatchetEffect: And you'll generally receive IC warnings as you tiptoe closer to extreme punishments.

 Bear: That might be your experience, Euclid, but it's not been mine.

 jwimpeney: Yeah, even if it works out for the better, for me it's just... so unbelievably stressful worrying about if I'm gonna get f*cked and lose a month's worth of sh*t, that I just end up no longer having fun, even if I do succeed flawlessly.

 svetlana: Exactly, Ratchet. And this is more of an edge case but there's also the risk of losing your character's entire -essence- if you risk yourself too many times

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "the payoff of risk taking is the OOC fun you have, IMO"

 jwimpeney: But risk taking isn't OOC fun for me in Sindome :D

 HerreraOutlaw: Or, in return for taking risks, could factions/PCs offer non-monetary rewards, such as rare items, favors, etc?

 svetlana: And that has paralyzed me many times because this would never be OOC fun for me

 spookybiitch: I think the heavy punishment is fine.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "Syndicates already resupply their members."

 batko: sometimes things are not oocly fun, sometimes they are, it depends on a case by case basis

 spookybiitch: It was some of my favorite RP.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "Gangers aren't expected to have crazy expensive gear."

 fopsy: I have taken huge risks and generally the response has been lackluster and unfulfilling if I am honest.

 spookybiitch: WAIT HUH?!

 ReeferMadness: I think it really depends on the risk, Slither. A lot of players feel goaded into hurling themselves at the wall and then wonder why they're just another splatjob.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) asks, "we've also reduced the prices of stuff by like 20-25% fairly recently, no?"

 crashdown: Most of the severe IC consequences from all angles/factions imo are pulled back right now and finding different ways to handle because of the lower playerbase and understanding of the morale of the game currently.

 crashdown: Yes prices were reduced again.

 0x1mm: Character do have a tendency to overequip. Yes there was a price cut a year ago.

 Pavane: The gang world in general seems totally out of control from the days of 'brand new UE characters hitting each other with steel pipes'.

 0x1mm: Great change in my opinion.

 crashdown: Prices across the board were reduced by a good chunk for combat/chrome.

 jwimpeney: You are correct there, but for factionless, new people, who are expected to take risks to be allowed into the faction in the first place. See the catch 22?

 batko: A lot of the time if you are taking risks, you will have a lot of fun in the moment, but realize afterwards that the response you get, as i said, the payoff, wasn't worth it

 ReeferMadness: To Bear's point, we need better mentorship and to Batko's point more meaningful impact to those big risks so that they feel worthwhile.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: I dunno what to say then haha.

 RatchetEffect: I've received significant IC punishment in the past, and it's really interesting to look at them as rp opportunities rather than hindrances. How they change you, affect you, etc. Can change and inform your direction in the future.

 batko: i dont mean money or anything as a 'payoff', i just mean the game world reactions and how factions respond, which is usually to just grind you to a pulp

 ReeferMadness: And for payoff, I don't mean chyen. Let repercussions echo- that.

 0x1mm: I do think players have a habit of getting into roles they don't actually like very much, but feeling too much investment to leave them.

 fopsy: I agree Ratched I AGREEEEEEE!!!!! But when was the last time that sort of thing happened?

 jwimpeney: Maybe it's just me, then, but I really just don't have fun taking risks in Sindome, it's basically never been worth it for me.

 jwimpeney: PRobably beacuse I don't care about chyen or cool gear or a nice flat.

 RatchetEffect: To me? Within the last two years. And it informs my rp even now. How my character behaves, thinks, schemes.

 Dawnshot: I agree 0x1mm

 spookybiitch: Same Ratchet. I was really quite fond of the way that RP shaped my character.

 jwimpeney: And that's what most of the risk taking is rewarded by.

 BubbleKangaroo: I think the best risks are when you do something absolutely stupid with no clone.

 Euclid: im not sure the change from 'gang players being fresh characters hitting eachother with steel pipes' is as important as the change from peoples expectations of gangers shifting from being cultural setters to hyperviolence machines

 Dawnshot: Which granted is sometimes one of those 'gotta be there to know you don't like it' kinda thing.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: You can get into a gang without taking a huge amount of risk. But like, the game is about risk. If you don't like taking risks, then you aren't going to find more than bar/social RP.

 fopsy: I mean to others. The last thing I remember in terms of big meaningful public punishments was something like close to a year ago.

 RatchetEffect: Or being on the run all the time, scratching up just enough flash to have a single clone at a time.

 Euclid: which is going even further back in time, but still..

 svetlana: I like the more creative punishments one PC was thinking up earlier this year, that was refreshing

 Bear: Gangs are no longer for lowbies, yeah. But that's not the problem, really.

 batko: The most recent meaningful factional conflict between mix and corporate factions I can remember ended up having unilateral support being thrown to the corporate characters while the mixers got totally hosed. Those sorts of things are discouraging, and it's why people who are risk takers end up preferring not to try.

 fopsy: I agree Batko.

 fopsy: I am not looking for wins, I am looking for meaningful losses.

 jwimpeney: @slither Respectfully, I heavily disagree, based on the god knows how old character I used to play here, who basically took no risks.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "it's interesting that the feeling is gangers are hyper violence when we specifically ICly try to limit the killing they do.I wonder if that had a negative impact in that people do it more because it has fewer consequences."

 jwimpeney: @Slither It's how they're described.

 fopsy: Oh which I have had none. And I have seen that regularly.

 0x1mm: Gangs are pretty variable experiences depending on who is active.

 Euclid: tbh it's not really an issue as it stands currently anyway Slither.

 batko: Recently gangers have been dying left and right, if that's okay to say here. They die way, way more than I have ever seen before.

 spookybiitch: I would like to throw out that I think we should be able to get more chrome and get real crazy.

 ReeferMadness: Yeah. PC's really dictate the pace of gangs. Some gangers are more deadly than others.

 Pavane: They've also not really been lowbies recently.

 svetlana: spooky YESS

 Euclid: i think the issue is more on perceptions

 BubbleKangaroo: Chrome!

 Dawnshot: Yeah. The sheer fact that 'ganger hour' is a thing kinda shows the death amount for gangers.

 jwimpeney: I agree, but perceptions can't be fixed by just telling someone the facts, necessarily.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "It's hard for staff to make every big risk have an impact on the world. that's a lot of effort. players need to drive that. if you see people take risks, talk about it, make it a big deal. There isn't really anything that players can't do with regards to that. Staff putting out some pubsics and a grid post? PCs can do that too."

 spookybiitch: The fact that we are limited in the chrome department hurts me.

 Euclid: a lot of our playerbase doesnt know the days where gangers first and foremost were just there to create RP on their streets

 batko: agree with pavane, it used to be that you were basically out of the gang by the time you're a midbie, but now it seems more like you need to be almost a midbie before you even pledge

 Euclid: and the nitty gritty of ganging was secondary

 fopsy: Whether you like it not Slither, the staff drive things more often than not.

 crashdown: Not only can PCs do that but the PCs who do those risks can hire people to talk about it. Get yourself a hype man.

 Bear: Yup, agreed. I couldn't imagine making a fresh UE character and pledging right now. You would have to -love- losses.

 spookybiitch: I would love to Crash but people think it is too dangerous.

 fopsy: Again @crashdown this has been done.

 batko: some of that is part of ganging, however, losing will happen as long as you're not the biggest fish in the pond

 crashdown: I know it has been done, but that doesn't mean the suggestion shouldn't been given.

 Dawnshot: Maybe more non-combat people should be doing it too.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "staff have been told that people don't need to have any kind of UE to join gangs. gangers are for new-middle characters."

 Dawnshot: Get hype men for you race or tailoring job, or whatever else.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "you just need to get some rep with them through either direct RP, or selling them gear to be considered to pledge. and anyone can pledge really"

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "anyone low UE. we work people out when they start hitting middlebe or they throw off the balance cause they can dominate in a fight"

 jwimpeney: This increasingly sounds like a 'me' problem, but... I just don't like... being a ganger, yunno? As a character concept. The same way I don't like playing orcs in fantasy.

 Euclid: noncom chars can gang. immies can gang. i promise you the reality isnt as bleak as people are saying here

 Dawnshot: Get people used to it, so when someone tells you that oh, now we are a terrorist cell, be our hype man, its more regular.

 Bear: I think the point is that many players do not exit ganging until well into midbie stage.

 Risikio: Chrome is, IMO, not really worth it. At all. Unless you are Corp and have that magical insurance where they'll replace it, it is way too expensive for such little gain.

 JakeyBoy: I think it might help with the conflict problem people are talking about if vehicle related things were less mysterious and easier to understand and figure out. Based on information I've been getting I can't tell if something is broken, or wrongly configured. I don't think the biggest risk you take when it comes to vehicle combat should be trying to figure out what to buy for your specific vehicle because the prices are very restrictive.

 batko: also, i dont mean getting hyped up as a result of something, sometimes just not being actively discouraged from the conflict by your faction members is all that is needed :b

 Bear: And it creates a power dynamic where if you pledge, you are consistently hazed by higher UE characters who can smack you down.

 Bear: -Much- higher UE characters.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to fopsy]: I totally get it, but I also want to be realistic that staff are few and players are many. just doing puppet requests takes most of our time. responding to everyones risk taking isn't going to be possible except in really big cases and the response may not be what was expected.

 RatchetEffect: I've seen gang rp that grew to incorporate syndicate wars and beyond. And it was always driven by a single player at the helm, true.

 Dawnshot: JakeyBoy, you may be missing IC reasons on why you cannot get that information. There is a plethora available upon a glance.

 Euclid: much higher ue gangers should not be crushing lowbies into the dirt

 ReeferMadness: It's almost like ganging is trying to teach you how to fight beyond using the 'kill' command.

 Euclid: that isnt conducive to anything

 Dawnshot: If you are having trouble, maybe talk to someone who is in that field.

 Euclid: from the other end, lowbie gangers shouldnt be meatgrinding into those big bad gangers

 crashdown: Especially right now, I think we need to have empathy and understanding for the staff that're left and what they've gone through/are going through and try to do as much as we can ourselves to lessen the load.

 batko: when a puppet that was supposed to be on your side shows up to tell you not to do something that you were putting a lot of resources and effort and plot into, that's a really frustrating moment and i think i am not the only person around who has experienced it

 RatchetEffect: There are a lot of roles that don't require making waves as a rule too. Non-physical ones. Or that could make waves, but have the potential to draw people to you. Fixers are a good example. Chemists too. Cyberdocs.

 0x1mm: If I'm being vague about something vehicle related IC, it's probably because I'm not sure if it's been hotfixed/changed since the system went live.

 spookybiitch: The staff interactions I have had with my Puppet requests as of late have been helpful and I am grateful that I have gotten some type of help.

 JakeyBoy: I don't agree that the problem is I am not doing enough RP for the information.

 Euclid: for all the gripes ive had with the Code, we have it, and it tells you straight up youre not meant to be massive dicks to eachother and do the corps work for them in reducing eachother into puddles

 svetlana: Euclid YES

 jwimpeney: @Ratchet. Yep, they're great, but they also take a month, minimum, to even start. And not things you can work on, you just gotta sit around until you a) know people, and b) have the ue to fix in the markets/make drugs/install chrome

 0x1mm: Or I'm not sure if a specific thing is actually working at the moment.

 JakeyBoy: I think the problem is the descriptions say one thing and the reality is another.

 ReeferMadness: Jesus.

 ReeferMadness: Any rule IC in Sindome is meant to be broken.

 0x1mm: Descriptions cannot be trusted!

 Dawnshot: Not saying its just RP. But I will say that all vehicle related things provide -infintely- more information than most systems, but that may be locked behind skill checks.

 ReeferMadness: If you see a bunch of rules written somewhere and you follow them then have a bad time - it's your own fault.

 Risikio: Unfortunately there is ZERO IC support for any immigrant who is not choosing the Ganger or Medic role. Anything else you can imagine being from the gate is either Ganger, Medic, or Other. And Other is six months of "I might have work for you six months from now if you don't perm because nobody is willing to teach you anything."

 spookybiitch: Take money. Get rich. Flick people in the nose.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to JakeyBoy]: If that's the case, sounds like an @Bug, so @bug it and I will look into it!

 JakeyBoy: Ok thank you, I wasn't sure if I should because I can't be sure if it is a bug or not.

 RatchetEffect: There used to be a PC ganger mentality in which seasoned gangers didn't bother with newer ones. They weren't worth the time/were there for pledges to cut their teeth on. That's something I suggest people interested in gang rp consider if you want to alter that hazing dynamic to some extent.

 Euclid: dont get me wrong reefer im not saying anyone has to strictly adhere to the Code or anything like that but at the same time, that suggestion feels pretty on the nose about older gangers not going out of their way to completely f*ck lowbies over because theyre rivals and they can

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to JakeyBoy]: if it's not it'll just get closed as working as intended and you'll have an answer :)

 RatchetEffect: If you're a walker or LT, it's beneath you. You got better sh*t to do. And you should be delegating rp to your juniors.

 fopsy: I am trying to take on board everything that we have discussed in the last two hours. And presently all my take away is. Why should I bother. And that hurts my heart.

 Euclid: which is something that we should just... innately understand, i think

 Risikio: ^^^

 Kalii: Same.

 0x1mm: The bottom line is you can lead a horse to water but not all them will want to drink.

 0x1mm: Sometimes plots will whiff hard.

 0x1mm: It sucks.

 jwimpeney: Right, but that's also okay.

 fopsy: Every time though? Like am I doing something so catastrophically wrong?

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "Agreed on the ganger bit. higher UE gangers should be staying out of fights unelss they are needed. plenty of excuses like 'you need the practice' and sh*t like that to keep it fairish.And at that point you should be able to tell ICly/OOCly what's going to be fair/fun for all involved."

 JakeyBoy: @slither Ok I can do that. I didn't want to make extra work for anyone if it turned out to be not a bug.

 ReeferMadness: For sure, Euclid. It's important to give people a way out if you're going to be a dick and try to create a story that isn't a roflstomp.

 jwimpeney: You could almost say... you have to take RISKS in trying to get people to RP! ;)

 svetlana: How many times have you tried, fopsy? my character has been trying for almost 3 years and has never succeeded in her major goal

 svetlana: But the attempts she made to try and reach that goal had amazing RP going along with it

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to JakeyBoy]: no worries!

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): test

 Pavane: My observation is that there is usually only one or maybe two low UE gangers at a time, so what that really means is the low UE guys are hanging around doing nothing.

 Dawnshot: Hello

 svetlana: Test

 Euclid: that doesnt track pavane

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): okay, so we are coming up on 2 hours. do we want to continue?

 fopsy: Avaraging out on things, most weeks something is bubbling away that as 0x1mm whiffs.

 svetlana: yes:)

 Euclid: that implies ganger pcs need other ganger pcs to do gang stuff which isnt true at all and has never been

 jwimpeney: I imagine things are gonna be coming to a close soon, so I just wanna drop in that compared to when I last played, the staff have been infinitely more friendly and and punctual than I've ever seen them before, roughly 5 years ago. A big reason I left was due to awful experiences with staff, and I'm so much happier with what I see here now.

 ReeferMadness: I think summarizing take away and next steps might be a good thing now, Slither.

 Euclid: ganging isnt just about punching eachother

 ReeferMadness: Take aways*

 fopsy: Best part of two and a half years.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) [to jwimpeney]: happy to hear things have improved.

 Euclid: we've had healthy gang cultures at times where basically no gang fighting was happening at all

 Plebe: I would like to hear a Slither/Staff breakdown of the convo if /when we do call it though. It's been interesting but I missed a lot.

 jwimpeney: @Slither You've always been good, my friend ;)

 geigerbunny: Has anyone else been banned since the last post in the Suspension/Ban thread on the BGBB on December 13?

 BubbleKangaroo: I believe there was 1, Geiger

 ReeferMadness: My biggest takeaway is we have a lot of players receptive to mentorship and encouragement who are just feeling stuck with plot not gaining momentum.

 BubbleKangaroo: Someone bypassing their old ban I think

 RatchetEffect: If you want to make waves, ranking gangers, look for bigger fish to poke, and get your juniors in on it with you. And third parties too.

 Euclid: @ReeferMadness seconding this as the most important takeaway from all of this

 jwimpeney: Ditto for both points.

 JayPNG: Haven't said anything but have been watching the whole time, I've definitely learned some things that I think I can put to use as relatively new player. Thanks for the discussion!

 geigerbunny: Bubble, I think only staff can know how many people have been banned in a timeframe

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "I think I'm up to date on bans for the thread -- we caught one or two people evading bans but I don't always post those if I catch them quickly."

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "and I've gotten pretty good about catching them quickly"

 fopsy: My take away is that I need guidance and mentorship to help polish up the rough edges I clearly have that are stopping me enjoying the enormous amounts of effort I put into Sindome in hopes to make an IC and OOC difference.

 fopsy: In essence. Guide me sempai.

 Bear: Yup.

 RatchetEffect: I've seen rp in which gangs of players, new/old/npc, and third party midbies join forces to utterly destroy well entrenched/high UE characters. Not just once, but through direct violence and destroying support structures, completely wipe out a character and their resources without perming them.

 batko: to quote the dread pirate roberts, get used to disappointment

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither): So, summarizing: early character progression remains a problem. There is a lack of IC mentorship in factions, possibly need tooffer some kind of temp vacation characters to trusted players, but also there is a concern about perceived favoritism. @plot command could be a good idea. Players wish they had an ability to workshop ideas OOCly with admin (sorry, that is probably too time consuming to really happen). Gangers don't need to be combat characters (already made a grid post to carry this forward, will talk with staff at staff meeting). Newer players want RP with oldbies, but can't find them, oldbies think newerplayers don't take the risks enough when offered jobs.

 ReeferMadness: To be fair fopsy, I've been playing for almost as long as Slither but I run into a lot of the same problems as you, so I don't think you should beat yourself up.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "what am I missing/"

 svetlana: Don't take losses personally, fopsy. Keep trying. I have faith in you

 svetlana: Missing mix vs corp discussion I think?

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "I'm not clear on if there were any takeaways from that."

 spookybiitch: Would very much like mentor.

 ReeferMadness: I think if Staff helped emphasis PvP vs PvE in faction rivalry it would be a huge help Slither.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "seemed like... people on both sides of it."

 Euclid: i consider myself a pretty experienced player and i feel the same frustations re: effort put into the game vs return sometimes too. it happens. it works beautifully sometimes though

 BubbleKangaroo: Shadowrunners

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) nods in ReeferMadness's general direction.

 fopsy: Oldbies are woried to take risks of new players because we are unsure if they will be gone in a week or after one punch. But that is not really something we can fix.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "I really would like to see loans be used more for stuff like that"

 Euclid: definitely dont want anybody to feel that the message is 'youre not trying hard enough' because its never that clearcut and you still hit walls.

 RatchetEffect: Maybe toss up some votes on key ideas put forth is a good way to quantify takeaway?

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) says, "it insulates you from a lot of the risk of someone just perming or quitting"

 fopsy: Also. Thank you. Reefer, Svetlana and all those I am rude to miss. It means something.

 ReeferMadness: The game isn't built for Shadowrunning would-be dungeons but their is a ton of OpSec to explore.

 jwimpeney: I'd kill for a mentor. I'd love more things to do, yeah.

 Risikio: I'm going to argue about the newer players refusing to take risks. It's also the older player's interpretation. Saying that nobody wants to take risks is one thing, but when the players claiming to be driving RP are only offering literal pocket change to entice characters, that's also on them.

 svetlana: <3

 0x1mm: Yes that is a chronic problem for me, though I think the game is just super hard and not everyone's cup of tea and there's not much way around it except for not relying on them too much until they cross a Rubicon and get addicted.

 Staff Mr. Cooperative Competition (Slither) nods in RatchetEffect's general direction.