Flesh discussion w/zero and agonyembraced

21:35	Zerovirus	as a side-question: how do you even actually use 'loyalty' when thinking
21:36	Zerovirus	like, are there actually people who ask themselves 'how loyal am i to this other person' and then use that integer output as a multiplier or an added constant or whatever
21:36	equalitySaurus	no
21:36	Zerovirus	i'm pretty sure loyalty only exists in the form of a trend
21:36	agonyEmbraced	loyalty is how much you conisider the past whiel determining the future
21:36	Zerovirus	that is, outsiders observe that you tend to agree with someone and then they decide arbitrarily that you're 'loyal' to that person since they don't know the reasoning you're using
21:36	equalitySaurus	okay can i actually like get thoughts in here or what :b
21:36	Zerovirus	yeah go ahead what i'm babbling isn't even relevant to RV at all so
21:36	agonyEmbraced	sure, you're as free to talk as we are.
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21:37	equalitySaurus	Okay then!
21:37	equalitySaurus	Loyalty
21:37	equalitySaurus	in the context of Flesh
21:37	equalitySaurus	is executed in a number of ways:
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21:38	equalitySaurus	there are the Zombies and Golems, the former of which are generally not too bright, but will follow the Player's direction, and the latter which are straight-out programmed to be loyal to the goal(s) set to them.
21:39	equalitySaurus	There is the player's own loyalty to their horde, in considering them to be nearly coplayers themselves, a team instead of a mindless army
21:39	equalitySaurus	And there is the player's "loyalty" to a consistently useful tactic in playing the game, which will vary from player to player but is rewarded by the game.
21:40	equalitySaurus	There are some fairly strong resemblances to Blood, in some ways, in that social ties and friendship with those around you is important to playing a Flesh role.
21:42	equalitySaurus	Flesh is NOT mad science, it is NOT dooming people, and it is not turning all the things into zombies; though there might be aspects of such things in the player's approach to the game.
21:43	equalitySaurus	u_u does this make sense so far?
21:43	Zerovirus	who decided flesh was mad science
21:43	Zerovirus	like, where does that trope even show up
21:43	equalitySaurus	shitty tank AI with the shitty stereotyped and terrible PTSD
21:43	Zerovirus	why would that be a reasonable failure mode alternative to what flesh actually is :V
21:44	Zerovirus	uhhhhhh okay
21:44	equalitySaurus	there was a dude who was like MAD SCIENCE! and it was terrible and he was terrible
21:44	Zerovirus	i'm still not seeing the mental leap but- okay so what do you think about the proposed auto-goleming it was?
21:44	Zerovirus	yeah, mad science sucks
21:44	Zerovirus	rational science is way cooler
21:44	equalitySaurus	<3
21:44	Zerovirus	is the concept even possible or not
21:45	Zerovirus	bear in mind that either way i'm going to end up playing devil's advocate because i'm bored and i like this sort of debatething
21:45	futureoneirosInspired	There are two places it's welcome: Awesomely bad movies and Genius: The Transgression, which is hilarious.
21:45	equalitySaurus	The auto-goleming seems... improbable, to me? I could be argued around into agreeing with it, but flesh tends to have all its physical effects turned outwards, to other people/players/npcs
21:45	Zerovirus	oh man yes Genius is a fantastic setting-system
21:45		futureoneirosInspired brofists Zero
21:46	equalitySaurus	With Doom, all the physical effects turn inward
21:46	equalitySaurus	which is why the autozombie and the poision-drinking and such are things
21:46	Zerovirus	and now i'm thinking about- exceptions to the rule that 'flesh tends to turn otuwards': what constitutes as a betrayal of one's own body?
21:46	equalitySaurus	With Flesh, you effect things around you, and the only self-effects are psychological
21:46	Zerovirus	well, probably most genetic disorders, most outstandingly cancer
21:46	Zerovirus	can flesh cure cancer
21:46	equalitySaurus	fuck if i know
21:47	equalitySaurus	:V
21:47	equalitySaurus	Possibly, though, actually
21:47	equalitySaurus	but I would say more... in another person?
21:47	equalitySaurus	If a flesh player takes ill, they're more likely to be taken care of by the Horde than by the Nerve
21:48	equalitySaurus	Like, when Paaver was an idiot and bled himself out while painting (stupid dumb flesh player), he literally just got picked up by his zombies and carted off to his quest bed
21:48	Zerovirus	well, you could probably golem a dead body of yourself
21:49	equalitySaurus	Yes!
21:49	equalitySaurus	If there was a dead you laying around, that could definitely be a thing
21:49	Zerovirus	golems are when you take a dead thing and make it alive again, right
21:49	Zerovirus	you don't make golems out of thin air
21:49	equalitySaurus	And there's definitely flesh abilities to preserve the minds of your zombies
21:50	futureoneirosInspired	Flesh + Blood would be interesting.
21:50	equalitySaurus	Kind of? I have been viewing them in a fairly traditional light, as a doll of clay with written orders that they must follow, and as protectors of their masters
21:50	Zerovirus	with written orders?
21:51	Zerovirus	what sort of written orders
21:51	equalitySaurus	in this case the "clay" is probably going to be actual flesh and the orders "written" with abilities, but yeah
21:51	Zerovirus	do they have their own programming language :V
21:51	equalitySaurus	YES PRETTY MUCH
21:51	agonyEmbraced	i always thought "golem" was just used as a word for "zombie" with less connotations
21:51	equalitySaurus	no, it's not!
21:51	futureoneirosInspired	Noooo
21:51	Zerovirus	faaaaantastic
21:51	futureoneirosInspired	Not even close.
21:51	agonyEmbraced	in this case, i know wht a golem normally is
21:51	equalitySaurus	they're actually like
21:52	equalitySaurus	Jewish mythology/magical creatures
21:52	Zerovirus	somebody ought to team up with a multi-replays heart-godtier and have the heart player transcribe the mindstate-portion of the shiny out and have the flesh player translate it to programming
21:52	futureoneirosInspired	Zombi are slaves made from people. Golems are usually constructs.
21:52	Zerovirus	and then voila you can duplicate minds inside golems
21:52	equalitySaurus	^^^^
21:52	Zerovirus	possibly unethical but i coul dsee uses of this
21:52	agonyEmbraced	i know wht they normally are, i thought it was different in this scenario'
21:52	equalitySaurus	also that would be awesome and I would love to see it
21:52	Zerovirus	like, if a player dies you can use their past bodies to bring them back, assuming they have spare bodies lying around
21:52	Zerovirus	at the cost of, i suppose, being a permanent drain on the flesh player's pluck for sustenance
21:53	Zerovirus	or are golems self-sustaining
21:53	Zerovirus	in which case the solution is even more alluring
21:54	equalitySaurus	They should be pretty self-sustaining after they've been created
21:54	equalitySaurus	If the flesh player had pluck draining from them for every thing they had walking around, they wouldn't be able to do much
21:55	equalitySaurus	(I suppose that could be another bit of loyalty-- giving bits of you pluck out to re/animate things, trusting that they will help you in return...)
21:56	equalitySaurus	anyway
21:56	equalitySaurus	Does that clear up Flesh some more maybe?
21:57	Zerovirus	i don't even know who brought up the original issue i'm just jumping on the discussion bandwagon :V
21:59	equalitySaurus	ehehe
21:59	agonyEmbraced	it was my character being creepy, then someone else asking a question, this being my explanation, and then someone else asking about it, and it all went sidewys from their
22:00	agonyEmbraced	sideways because i don't know if it escelated or went downhill
22:00	Zerovirus	i am personally liking the idea of a character who thinks that they auto-golem'd
22:00	Zerovirus	but in fact they are a mind-state dupe of their god-tier self
22:00	Zerovirus	who is off doing nefarious things
22:00	Zerovirus	while this character has his own pendant and is trying to get over vague metaphysical issues about possibly not having the soul-component of a shiny or whatever the fuck
22:01	Zerovirus	it would also create a nice 'evil twin who is more powerful than you' situation to get over, eventually :V
22:01	Zerovirus	but it's not my character and i'm just hypothesizing here so
22:03		equalitySaurus nods
22:06		*** futureoneirosInspired is now known as tenebrousPsycher
22:28		*** Zerovirus quit (Quit: Leaving)
22:35	agonyEmbraced	Wait, what's the "horde" and "nerve" you mention? horde commonly describes a group of zombies, but I don't see how nerves are related
22:38	equalitySaurus	oh it's the thingy
22:38	equalitySaurus	the whisperings
22:38	equalitySaurus	the Nerve
22:39	equalitySaurus	like how breath has the Breeze etc
22:40	agonyEmbraced	odd, i thought it was the Pulse from this page (way down):http://archiveofourown.org/works/340777/chapters/592734
22:40	equalitySaurus	oh
22:40	equalitySaurus	Blood is also Pulse
22:40	equalitySaurus	so I changed it :V
22:40	agonyEmbraced	chalk it up to in-character inconsistent narrator then.
22:41	agonyEmbraced	but yeah, i thought it wierd they shared one.
22:43	agonyEmbraced	getting into this thing is a bit more than i thought.
22:44	agonyEmbraced	but than again, i guess it's not any different from havig to read the splats for a less freeform rp.
22:45	tenebrousPsycher	It's less involved than WOD