kyren

[1:01pm] Ordona: Must be heard to type like that
[1:01pm] TOAST7312: Actively.
[1:01pm] Ghostar: Kyren did you do the code work for the terrain generation?
[1:01pm] demanrisu: Y'know, it's funny, overuse of the word "alas" doesn't make people think you're smarter
[1:01pm] demanrisu: >_>
[1:01pm] Ordona: If you check what threads the devs are looking at, a lot of the time it will be suggestions TOAST7312.
[1:02pm] kyren: yes I do
[1:02pm] Ghostar: Then I have to ask...
[1:02pm] Ghostar: WTF
[1:02pm] demanrisu: Wednesday, Thursday, Friday?
[1:02pm] Ghostar: I have been trying to replicate some of the terrain
[1:02pm] kyren: yeah, we do read the suggestion forums, I'm sorry if I don't read it very often though, I'm.. busy
[1:02pm] kyren: a lot
[1:02pm] Ghostar: and I cannot see how some of it is tiled
[1:02pm] Ordona: I see George browsing suggestions often
[1:02pm] demanrisu: I'd assume they do blending, Ghostar
[1:02pm] kyren: haha, it's complicated
[1:02pm] FrozenDeath550: but no really demanrisu what are some fun cool whatever downloadable games. I wish I had Wanderlust Rebirth. I hear its fun.
[1:02pm] MysteryMan: what are you talking about Ghostar?
[1:02pm] Ghostar: It is indeed!
[1:02pm] FrozenDeath550: -wink wink
[1:02pm] Ghostar: Well think about it.
[1:02pm] demanrisu: FrozenDeath550: do you have a Steam account?
[1:02pm] TOAST7312: You don't need to apologize, kyren.. <_<
[1:03pm] FrozenDeath550: yes
[1:03pm] Ghostar: Any game thats 2D is generally tiled
[1:03pm] TOAST7312: You're kind of developing a game.
[1:03pm] Ghostar: but I cannot find out how exactly Starbound is tiled
[1:03pm] TOAST7312: Which is kind of a big deal in case you didn't know.
[1:03pm] kyren: it's tiled with variants
[1:03pm] Ghostar: Kyren: is the game actually tiled?
[1:03pm] kyren: yes
[1:03pm] Ghostar: With variants?
[1:03pm] kyren: there are variants of each material image
[1:03pm] kyren: yes
[1:03pm] kyren: and it's a static 2d field of integers
[1:03pm] kyren: that pick which variant for each spot
[1:03pm] TOAST7312: o_O
[1:03pm] kyren: so that it doesn't look repeated and boring
[1:03pm] kyren: based on planet seed, in fact
[1:04pm] Ghostar: I see, thats something I was unable to replicate.
[1:04pm] MysteryMan: how many are there?
[1:04pm] kyren: depends on the material
[1:04pm] kyren: 3-5
[1:04pm] kyren: sometimes just 1
[1:04pm] Ghostar: I attempted to do that with my Darkbound suggestion, like Make a planet.
[1:04pm] huhlig-home: one question kyren. Tiy has said worlds are endless, so is the galaxy. is it actually endless or just to the size of a 64 bit int?
[1:04pm] Ghostar: But it ended up looking like it was completley tiled
[1:04pm] kyren: uh, worlds aren't endless but they're very big, we *can* have endless worlds but we don't atm
[1:04pm] kyren: they actually wrap around
[1:04pm] kyren: like a tube
[1:05pm] TOAST7312: Endless worlds sound like ridiculous.
[1:05pm] kyren: yeah ghostar, you have to use multiple variants
[1:05pm] Ghostar: a tube of You?
[1:05pm] huhlig-home: kyren, how do you handle coordinates for even players at the ends
[1:05pm] TOAST7312: They also sound like they would make your computer explode.
[1:05pm] Ghostar: Then curses!
[1:05pm] kyren: well, even then it would be the size of a 64 bit int
[1:05pm] Ghostar: It makes it very difficult to replicate it for suggestions!
[1:05pm] kyren: and would be "endless"
[1:05pm] kyren: unless you used an arbitrary precision number system
[1:05pm] huhlig-home: kyren, ahh ok... thats what I thought
[1:05pm] kyren: but.. that would be silly
[1:05pm] kyren: and unnecessary
[1:05pm] huhlig-home: I was trying to parse endless in my head and failing misrably
[1:06pm] kyren: "endless"
[1:06pm] FlutterAi is now known as Nimrod.
[1:06pm] kyren: even arbitrary precision numbers aren't "endless"
[1:06pm] huhlig-home: so the larges world size is 32 bits in eigther direction from start
[1:06pm] kyren: because of limitations of memory
[1:06pm] Nimrod is now known as FlutterAi.
[1:06pm] kyren: I mean..
[1:06pm] Ghostar: Kyren:  might I make a suggestion on something the forum might like? Show an image of one biome with all the variants or at least a few.
[1:06pm] kyren: busy beaver of 100
[1:06pm] kyren: there, you can't have a world that big
[1:06pm] kyren: no matter what
[1:06pm] Ghostar: I know I would be very interested to see how they interact with eachother.
[1:07pm] kyren: you have seen them
[1:07pm] kyren: you've seen all the variants of dirt
[1:07pm] kyren: tiles are 8px x 8px
[1:07pm] kyren: with a border
[1:07pm] Ghostar: wait, they are?
[1:07pm] kyren: that's auto-tiled with a custom auto-tiling system
[1:07pm] kyren: yes
[1:07pm] Ghostar: my estimate was way off...
[1:07pm] kyren: there are only 4 or 5 variants of dirt, iirc
[1:08pm] RealEyes: i went to J-crew today
[1:08pm] TOAST7312: These are the times when I wish I knew how to program. Although this still does make some sense.
[1:08pm] kyren: huhlig-home: yeah, but right now they're not that big because they wrap and have upper and lower bounds
[1:08pm] Ghostar: Hm I see. I need to go over the current images again.
[1:08pm] FrozenDeath550: Thank you demanrisu you are so awsome. you are cooler than my cat. His name is Riley.
[1:08pm] kyren: I think one of the largest planets we have right now is like 16k around
[1:08pm] demanrisu: #swag
[1:08pm] FrozenDeath550 left the chat room. (Quit: Page closed)
[1:08pm] kyren: and how do we handle wrapping coordinates? *carefully*
[1:08pm] Ordona: I read that as "frozen cat" O_o
[1:08pm] kyren: non-euclidean coordinate systems are, to put it mildly
[1:09pm] kyren: *a frigging pain*
[1:09pm] huhlig-home: kyren, ok that makes sense. I assume you dont try to hold the entire world in memory at once
[1:09pm] demanrisu: sigh
[1:09pm] kyren: no ofc not
[1:09pm] demanrisu: that guy did NOT thank me as much as I should have :u
[1:09pm] demanrisu: *he should have
[1:09pm] Ghostar: "Shes got the whole world, in her hand."
[1:09pm] demanrisu: >:u
[1:09pm] Cyan6: she's got the wold word, in her memory
[1:09pm] MysteryMan: lol
[1:09pm] FrozenDeath550 joined the chat room.
[1:09pm] kyren: they're loaded / genned sector by sector
[1:09pm] MysteryMan: That's funny XD
[1:09pm] FrozenDeath550: Sorry demanrisu i accidently closed the page
[1:09pm] Solatrus left the chat room.
[1:09pm] demanrisu: lawl
[1:09pm] Cyan6: how large are sectors? in blocks?
[1:10pm] demanrisu: just keep on heapin' the praise on~
[1:10pm] Ordona: MysteryMan: I can't do name changes from this computer; its too slow for the forums
[1:10pm] TOAST7312: Suggestion; non-euclidean liquids.
[1:10pm] kyren: 32 x 32, but we might change it.. it's not really hard to change it's only specified in one place
[1:10pm] Ghostar: Reminds me of "Chunks" from minecraft.
[1:10pm] kyren: yeah, that's it basically
[1:10pm] demanrisu: I think that's the point, Ghostar
[1:10pm] kyren: they're chunks
[1:10pm] Cyan6: same concept. only 2d.
[1:10pm] MysteryMan: Ordona: You are doing this on purpose.
[1:10pm] MysteryMan: xD
[1:10pm] Ghostar: Then I have a question
[1:10pm] kyren: it influences the maximum size of some objects in some ways
[1:10pm] kyren: but that's about it
[1:10pm] demanrisu: kyren: how big is each chunk?
[1:11pm] demanrisu: in b/kb
[1:11pm] Ghostar: How will monster spawning work? Will it be offscreen?
[1:11pm] kyren: oh oh
[1:11pm] Ordona: MysteryMan: Nah, could show you a screenshot, but it basically says 'The server did not respond in time. Please try again.'
[1:11pm] kyren: uh.. compressed, like.. tiny
[1:11pm] kyren: lemme see!
[1:11pm] kyren: I think the last time I checked like.. far less than 512
[1:11pm] demanrisu: so you can load worlds really quickly?
[1:11pm] MysteryMan: It does that to me all the time too
[1:11pm] kyren: like 200 bytes
[1:11pm] kyren: or less
[1:11pm] demanrisu: also: do you store them as 2D arrays or something else?
[1:11pm] Cyan6: 512 kb? or 512b?
[1:11pm] kyren: yeah, loading is always fast
[1:11pm] kyren: 512b
[1:11pm] Cyan6: o-o
[1:11pm] Cyan6:  /mindblown
[1:12pm] kyren: less than that
[1:12pm] kyren: well, that's just the block dat
[1:12pm] kyren: *data
[1:12pm] kyren: there's also entity data
[1:12pm] Cyan6: still.
[1:12pm] kyren: which, good question lemme print it out
[1:12pm] Cyan6: and entity data isn't really part of the sector....
[1:12pm] • demanrisu = best questioner
[1:12pm] Cyan6: unless... are entities static?
[1:12pm] demanrisu: Cyan6: you'd hope not!
[1:13pm] Cyan6: i'm saying entities like creatures....
[1:13pm] demanrisu: again: you'd hope not!
[1:13pm] Cyan6: why not?
[1:13pm] huhlig-home: Cyan6, creatures, furniture, torches
[1:13pm] demanrisu: because creatures should be dynamic, not statuc
[1:13pm] demanrisu: *static
[1:13pm] kyren: no, they're not static
[1:13pm] kyren: but they're serialized that way if they're "asleep"
[1:13pm] kyren: by sector
[1:14pm] MysteryMan: my internet SUCKS
[1:14pm] kyren: and they can overlap and stuff, so there's always a bit of a border around things
[1:14pm] kyren: and they end up in "a sector"
[1:14pm] kyren: but not necessarily the only sector they're in
[1:14pm] kyren: it works
[1:14pm] huhlig-home: kyren, curious. is play calculated out of sight
[1:14pm] Cyan6: i mean if you were to quit starbound and start it back up, would they stil be where they were when you left?
[1:14pm] kyren: depends
[1:14pm] huhlig-home: I.e. water flowing down if its offscreen. Or circuitry work offworld?
[1:14pm] kyren: it depends on what it is
[1:14pm] kyren: water flowing yes, circuitry yes if it's in the same world
[1:15pm] kyren: we haven't decided about worlds in which *nobody* is on
[1:15pm] huhlig-home: fair enough
[1:15pm] MysteryMan left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)
[1:15pm] Sean__ joined the chat room.
[1:15pm] huhlig-home: It was always annoying in terraria when water would just stop flowing if you were too far down
[1:15pm] kyren: we can do basically whatever we like, it's just a matter of balancing performance / making it make sense
[1:15pm] huhlig-home: yeah
[1:15pm] Cyan6: is starbound multithreaded?
[1:15pm] AmazingPerson: Add in ALL the things!
[1:15pm] huhlig-home: makes sense
[1:16pm] kyren: yes oh god yes
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[1:16pm] huhlig-home: Cyan6, I would hope so
[1:16pm] kyren: so many threads
[1:16pm] kyren: too many
[1:16pm] demanrisu: kyren, Tiy mentioned in his AMA that the game runs perfectly on a min-spec Macbook Air - have you guys tested it on any other, less powerful PCs?
[1:16pm] kyren: we need to add thread pooling honestly to some things
[1:16pm] huhlig-home: kyren, are you using threadqueues?
[1:16pm] Cyan6: you can never have too many threads.
[1:16pm] Cyan6: nevar.
[1:16pm] huhlig-home: Cyan6, uhhh
[1:16pm] huhlig-home: yeah you can
[1:16pm] Cyan6: if it causes excess overhead, yeah....
[1:16pm] kyren: we have
[1:16pm] huhlig-home: you really should be using more threads then you have cpus
[1:16pm] huhlig-home: err shouldnt
[1:16pm] kyren: and the main performance issue right now is windows / opengl something
[1:16pm] kyren: some kind of
[1:16pm] kyren: something
[1:17pm] huhlig-home: otherwise cache coherancy goes out the window
[1:17pm] kyren: nah, most of the threads spend their time sleeping huhlig-home
[1:17pm] kyren: like.. threads for network etc
[1:17pm] huhlig-home: ahh
[1:17pm] huhlig-home: why not use task queues
[1:17pm] huhlig-home: I would think the thread overhead would kill you
[1:18pm] Cyan6: because, starbound is like a finely woven blanket. it needs a lot of threads.
[1:18pm] Guest76964: how soon till beta release?
[1:18pm] Cyan6: there probably won't be one  <_>
[1:18pm] kyren: I would love to use thread pooling
[1:18pm] kyren: we just have to get there
[1:18pm] huhlig-home: Guest76964, december
[1:19pm] huhlig-home: kyren, using boost?
[1:19pm] Cyan6: huhlig-home: he asked about beta
[1:19pm] kyren: no, c++11
[1:19pm] huhlig-home: how are native threads in C++ 11?
[1:19pm] demanrisu: Cyan6: for all intents and purposes, we can refer to release as beta - they're essentially the same things unless the devs decide to do an open beta
[1:19pm] Ordona left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[1:19pm] kyren: c++11 threads were, up until recently, something to stay away frmo
[1:19pm] kyren: I think they're fine now?
[1:19pm] kyren: we're still using a home grown thin thread wrapper
[1:20pm] huhlig-home: ahh
[1:20pm] kyren: thread + mutex + condition variable
[1:20pm] kyren: but.. thread pooling isn't hard or anything
[1:20pm] huhlig-home: Ive used pthread in the past
[1:20pm] kyren: the implementation isn't hard
[1:20pm] kyren: it's making it so that everything ties together
[1:20pm] kyren: we'll get there
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[1:20pm] demanrisu: kyren: any estimate on how many lines of code Starbound has right now?
[1:20pm] demanrisu: not that it means anything, I'm just curious
[1:21pm] tramsan: kyren always spills the best beans
[1:21pm] tramsan: mm beans
[1:21pm] demanrisu: she does, haha
[1:21pm] kyren: a lot of it in the core/ folder is non-starbound related, tbh
[1:21pm] kyren: because I started the codebase
[1:21pm] huhlig-home: kyren, before tiy?
[1:21pm] kyren: and I dragged a lot of stuff from another codebase with it
[1:21pm] huhlig-home: ahh
[1:21pm] MysteryMan joined the chat room.
[1:21pm] kyren: tiy's not really a programmer haha
[1:22pm] huhlig-home: so are you guys actually planning on FOSSing starbound later
[1:22pm] MysteryMan: He's an artist
[1:22pm] kyren: but I did have some of the code that existed before meeting tiy
[1:22pm] Rayzond left the chat room.
[1:22pm] Gabranth123: Don't diss my boy Tiy, yo
[1:22pm] kyren: I would like to personally but I have zero say in it
[1:22pm] huhlig-home: ahh
[1:22pm] huhlig-home: I would love to see how you did the generation
[1:22pm] MysteryMan: An amazing, inspiring, awesome, beau...good artist.
[1:22pm] kyren: >    59449 lines total
[1:22pm] demanrisu: huhlig-home: that's why we use decompilers
[1:23pm] huhlig-home: demanrisu, decompilers suck for C++
[1:23pm] kyren: oh god no
[1:23pm] demanrisu: hee hee
[1:23pm] kyren: please
[1:23pm] demanrisu: I never said decompilers were /good/
[1:23pm] kyren: it's so bad
[1:23pm] Cyan6: what are you using as an IDE kyren?
[1:23pm] kyren: don't do that, I'd feel awful making people use decompilers to do what they want
[1:23pm] kyren: does vim count?
[1:23pm] Cyan6:  /personal qustion
[1:23pm] Cyan6: ha
[1:23pm] Cyan6: sorta
[1:23pm] kyren: I wish I used an ide
[1:23pm] kyren: there's stuff I want from ides
[1:24pm] kyren: none of them let me use vim keys / macros / nonsense which has infected my brain
[1:24pm] Cyan6: what os are you running kyren?
[1:24pm] huhlig-home: kyren, actually there is a vimkeys mod for several
[1:24pm] huhlig-home: what OS?
[1:24pm] kyren: okay, here we go
[1:24pm] kyren: tile sector compressedSize 226
[1:24pm] kyren: entity sector compressedSize 58
[1:24pm] kyren: tile sector compressedSize 309
[1:24pm] kyren: tile sector compressedSize 142
[1:24pm] kyren: entity sector compressedSize 10
[1:24pm] kyren: tile sector compressedSize 96
[1:24pm] kyren: entity sector compressedSize 41
[1:24pm] kyren: tile sector compressedSize 197
[1:24pm] kyren: there's your answer
[1:24pm] demanrisu: oooh neato, thanks <3
[1:24pm] kyren: os x
[1:24pm] MysteryMan: this nerd talk is hurting my brain
[1:24pm] demanrisu: BEST O
[1:25pm] demanrisu: *best os
[1:25pm] huhlig-home: linux?
[1:25pm] kyren: os x right now
[1:25pm] kyren: I've used them all
[1:25pm] huhlig-home: ahh
[1:25pm] kyren: a lot
[1:25pm] Cyan6: sublime text has a (disabled by default) package with pretty decent vim command support..
[1:25pm] tramsan: This nerd talk is better than butter.
[1:25pm] Cyan6: at least in the dev version.
[1:25pm] Cyan6: s
[1:25pm] kyren: yeah, but.. ide right?