00:59] * fifty changes topic to 'YOU AINT NOTHING BUT A HOOCHIE MAMMA! HOOD RAT HOOD RAT HOOCHIE MAMMA!'
[00:59] <ShadowWolf> I always discriminate against morons
[00:59] <~fifty> hi!
[00:59] <ShadowWolf> they pollute the gene-pool
[00:59] <+azzaman333> hi fifty
[01:00] <~fifty> thats not a very nice thing to say!
[01:00] <ShadowWolf> of course not
[01:00] <ShadowWolf> but then, it's an opinion
[01:00] <~fifty> Do you feel the same way about, say, people with physical disabilities?
[01:00] <ShadowWolf> nope
[01:00] <~fifty> Why not?
[01:00] <ShadowWolf> they don't often pass on idiotic ways of acting
[01:01] <ShadowWolf> where idiots pass on their idiotic ways and beliefs
[01:01] <ShadowWolf> (see: racism, etc...)
[01:01] <~fifty> interesting
[01:01] <~fifty> Do you think that a really smart person who considered you an idiot would be justfied in thinking you pollute the gene pool?
[01:02] <ShadowWolf> hrm...
[01:02] <+Chukchi_Husky> I'm an idiot.
[01:02] <+azzaman333> so you feel the same about people with mental disabilities as you do about mormons?
[01:02] <ShadowWolf> azza: not Mormons, morons
[01:02] <+azzaman333> typo
[01:02] <ShadowWolf> and no - people with mental disabilities are special
[01:03] <~fifty> what if you found out that intelligence and reasonability are largely heritable, and that considered views are largely based on non-reason-based factors?
[01:03] <~fifty> Then so-called idiotic views would be every bit as much out of the control of the person who holds them as, say, mental or physical disabilities.
[01:04] <ShadowWolf> fifty: umm... it's that way already - keeping idiots from raising children is the only way to keep those views from spreading as fast as they commonly do
[01:04] <~fifty> So you do consider it like a disease
[01:04] <ShadowWolf> yep
[01:04] <~fifty> So you support forced sterilization of persons with heritable mental and physical disabilities?
[01:05] <ShadowWolf> nope
[01:05] <~fifty> Why not?
[01:05] <ShadowWolf> that's eugenics
[01:05] <ShadowWolf> I don't support it
[01:05] <+azzaman333> but you support that occuring to other people
[01:05] <ShadowWolf> people with heritable mental and physical disabilities aren't that way by choice
[01:05] <~fifty> Neither are idiots.
[01:05] <+azzaman333> most morons arent either
[01:06] <ShadowWolf> the people I call "idiots" and "morons" are that way by choice - they choose to believe things that aren't true
[01:06] <ShadowWolf> most "Neo-Nazis" deny the holocaust - despite all evidence to the contrary
[01:06] <ShadowWolf> that is a "choice"
[01:07] <+azzaman333> i choose to be an athiest, does that make me an idiot or a moron?
[01:07] <~fifty> How do you know that the choice was truly free and not coerced by environmental or genetic factors? I mean, most evidence from evolutionary biology suggests that stuff like moral and intellectual character is largely the result of heritable stuff.
[01:07] <ShadowWolf> Religion isn't a factor in idiocy
[01:07] * %OrthodocErik is going to explore the Flooded Oracle of Leucothea on Puzzle Pirates.
[01:07] <ShadowWolf> fifty: people are taught the truth by society, in schools, etc...
[01:08] <~fifty> But the point is that they don't have the capacity to change their mind
[01:08] <~fifty> The choice is an illusion.
[01:08] <ShadowWolf> fifty: and most studies I've seen have proven that, while sex roles are nature the rest is mostly nurture
[01:08] <~fifty> Exactly what studies are those
[01:08] <ShadowWolf> fifty: if they are that lacking in mental power, then they even fit the classic definition of the terms
[01:08] <~fifty> Because that's wildly against everything I know of contemporary biology
[01:09] <ShadowWolf> There were several studies done in the late 70's and through the 80's
[01:09] <~fifty> lol
[01:09] <~fifty> that was the anthropologist era
[01:09] <~fifty> those are thoroughly discredited
[01:09] <ShadowWolf> including one where they raised a girl like a boy and a boy like a girl
[01:09] <ShadowWolf> fifty: Where and when ?
[01:10] * ShadowWolf notes that those were the "sex" studies - which were also backed up by physical studies showing differences in brain structure
[01:10] <~fifty> Conteporary evolutionary biology. If you want a good layman's overview check out "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature" by Steve Pinker
[01:10] <ShadowWolf> ah, I've heard of it - and also heard that it's not unbiased
[01:10] <~fifty> and "The Case for Nietzschean Moral Psychology" By Josh Knobe for the stuff on the heritability of morality
[01:11] <~fifty> Nobody except anthropologists believe that uber-nurture stuff anymore. It was politically motivated crap.
[01:11] <ShadowWolf> Nietzche was an asshat and people believing the "Ubermensch" theories are likewise asshats
[01:11] <~fifty> I can pretty much guarentee that you have very little idea of what Nietzsche's views were.
[01:11] <~fifty> His ubermensch theory was a relatively minor part of his corpus of work.
[01:11] <ShadowWolf> fifty: I've read Nietzche and disagreed
[01:12] <ShadowWolf> and most of his work, IMNSHO, was related to his "Ubermensch" theories
[01:12] <~fifty> So what's incorrect about his moral psychology?
[01:12] <ShadowWolf> it's bunk
[01:12] <~fifty> What's incorrect about it?
[01:12] <ShadowWolf> take a German kid and have him raised in Japan
[01:12] <ShadowWolf> He'll have Japanese morals
[01:12] <+Ansar> HE'LL TAKE BATHS
[01:12] <~fifty> ...
[01:12] <+Ansar>
[01:12] <ShadowWolf> not morals inherited from his parents
[01:12] * raketooy (~raketooy@a88-114-152-166.elisa-laajakaista.fi) has joined #fiftychat
[01:12] <~fifty> That's statement betrays a profound misunderstanding of Nietzsche's theory.
[01:13] <raketooy> HELLO
[01:13] <+azzaman333> hello rake
[01:13] <ShadowWolf> you're the one arguing that morality is an inherited trait
[01:13] <ShadowWolf> it's a *LEARNED* thing
[01:13] <~fifty> He is talking about characterological type-facts not culture-related trait-tokens.
[01:13] <ShadowWolf> and ?
[01:14] <ShadowWolf> I share more "type-facts" with my step-father than my biological father
[01:14] <ShadowWolf> that puts a lie to things right there
[01:14] <~fifty> and your statement was about a culture-related trait token
[01:14] <~fifty> Anecdotal evidence about you is not science.
[01:15] <~fifty> If you look at the actual empirical literature instead of just making politically expedient generalizations you'd see that the consensus in psychology is that moral character can be more strongly explained by heritable stuff.
[01:15] <ShadowWolf> fifty: no, but then Neitzche isn't science - that asshat was just a philosopher that a bunch of idiots take seriously
[01:15] <+azzaman333> wow, cfc is full of horrible people
[01:15] <+Chukchi_Husky> I'm sorry.
[01:15] <~fifty> You can't just ignore a scientific consensus on the basis of anecdotes and a vague hand-wavey accusation of bias.
[01:15] <+azzaman333> not you c_h, youre awesome
[01:15] <raketooy> chukchi if you're here, i just wanna tell you that in the presence of enemies is indeed damn awesome
[01:15] <~fifty> Nietzsche's theory has garnered a ton of scientific support, that's what the Knobe paper is about.
[01:16] <~fifty> This isn't lit-crit style crapass Nietzsche scholarship, which I agree exists.
[01:16] <~fifty> This is serious work by scientifically-minded people.
[01:16] <ShadowWolf> fifty: I can and will - because scientific consensus is bunk - use the right methods and write things in the correct way and people will agree with it. That is really true for psychology
[01:17] <~fifty> ok
[01:17] <~fifty> so the scientific method is bunk
[01:17] <~fifty> that says a lot about you
[01:17] <~fifty> sorry but this conversation is over
[01:17] <ShadowWolf> I could do a *SCIENTIFIC* study in psychology that would support any belief
[01:17] <%OrthodocErik> No, you couldn't.
[01:17] <ShadowWolf> because psych studies - at least every last one I've seen - have bias in the questions and study method that predicate towards a specific result
[01:17] <+Ansar> (11:17:26) <fifty> sorry but this conversation is over
[01:17] <+Ansar>
[01:18] <raketooy> imo that was a bit internety
[01:18] <~fifty> Arguing with people who refuse to believe anything science says in the name of politically expedient cultural-relativism are immune to rational persuasion.
[01:18] <ShadowWolf> fifty: oh, so you disagree? Look at all of psych theory throughout the history of that "science" - it's all been based on people saying "this is the truth" and making others believe it
[01:19] <~fifty> That's a wildly fallacious argument
[01:19] <%OrthodocErik> Indeed.
[01:19] <~fifty> When you can find a coherent, specific problem in the methodology of the work in question, let me know.
[01:19] <%OrthodocErik> It's like saying "we were wrong about the earth being flat, so we're probably wrong about the earth being round".
[01:19] <ShadowWolf> Only to someone that refuses to take a long-view look at the evidence
[01:20] <~fifty> The past wrongness of science is its greatest virtue, not its vice. The entire point of science is to make gradual, methodologically conservative approximations of the truth.
[01:20] <ShadowWolf> yes, but I have seen no evidence that psychologists are moving in the right direction
[01:20] <~fifty> When someone expounds the truth and doesn't change their view for 1000 years no matter what evidence, THAT is wrong. Changing one's views on the basis of evidence is a good thing.
[01:21] <+azzaman333> do you have any evidence to show that scientists are moving in the wrong direction?
[01:21] <~fifty> That's because you're ill-equipped to properly analyse the relavent data, because you are blinded by anecdotes and political considerations.
[01:21] <ShadowWolf> and then saying "Oh, sorry, but it doesn't matter that your personal life contradicts my theory because its 'anecdotal'" is bs
[01:21] <%OrthodocErik> No it's not.
[01:21] <~fifty> cya
[01:21] <%OrthodocErik> Anecdotes are, in fact, worthless like that.
[01:21] * ~fifty (~FIFTY@c-71-197-252-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) Quit (Killed (ShadowWolf (Oh, but I'm really prepared to do this)))
[01:21] * fifty (~FIFTY@c-71-197-252-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #fiftychat
[01:21] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo fifty fifty
[01:21] <~fifty> how mature
[01:22] <%OrthodocErik> It would be useful if fifty had been claiming that morality and beliefs are *only* heritable. He's not.
[01:22] * ~fifty (~FIFTY@c-71-197-252-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) Quit (Killed (ShadowWolf (Okay, probation over)))
[01:22] * fifty (~FIFTY@c-71-197-252-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #fiftychat
[01:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo fifty fifty
[01:22] <~fifty> ...
[01:22] <+azzaman333> anecdotes are not statistically relevant
[01:22] * ~fifty (~FIFTY@c-71-197-252-27.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) Quit (G-Lined: [ShadowWolf] Fifty blew it by pissing off an oper. Sorry folks.)
[01:22] * raketooy (~raketooy@a88-114-152-166.elisa-laajakaista.fi) Quit (G-Lined: [ShadowWolf] Fifty blew it by pissing off an oper. Sorry folks.)
[01:22] * Disconnected