[19-Apr-20 09:53 PM] Pablo#5523
can we ban sun after rufflets gone

[19-Apr-20 09:53 PM] BurntZebra#8147
strength sap or sleep powder seems like it might stop timburr

[19-Apr-20 09:53 PM] hongli#4483
can we ban trapping

[19-Apr-20 09:53 PM] hongli#4483
after ruff is gone

[redacted]

[19-Apr-20 09:54 PM] levi#6206
Fattys stepping down

[19-Apr-20 09:54 PM] levi#6206
U and ur antitrap stances r powerless now

[19-Apr-20 09:54 PM] hongli#4483
i shall campaign twice as strong then

[19-Apr-20 09:55 PM] levi#6206
Diglett will be lcs new mascot by 2022

[19-Apr-20 09:55 PM] Serene Grace#5243
what about electrode

[19-Apr-20 09:55 PM] levi#6206
Only mon that's good from gen 4-9

[19-Apr-20 09:55 PM] levi#6206
Oh I forgot electrode

[19-Apr-20 09:55 PM] hongli#4483
electrode?

[19-Apr-20 09:56 PM] Pablo#5523
how about gastly

[19-Apr-20 09:56 PM] levi#6206
Unfortunately electrode is banned

[19-Apr-20 09:56 PM] levi#6206
Unlike diglett, which won't be

[19-Apr-20 09:56 PM] hongli#4483
gastly doesnt have hands

[19-Apr-20 09:56 PM] hongli#4483
he can't be a mascot

[redacted]

[19-Apr-20 09:59 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i hope the first round of dlc adds cool stuff

[19-Apr-20 10:00 PM] LilyAC#7887
if suns broken because of heat rock dig, is trapping banworthy or is bulbasaur banworthy 🤔

[19-Apr-20 10:00 PM] hongli#4483
dig

[19-Apr-20 10:00 PM] levi#6206
Bulbasaur

[19-Apr-20 10:00 PM] hongli#4483
it also makes vully broke

[19-Apr-20 10:00 PM] levi#6206
We can't ban our mascot dig

[19-Apr-20 10:00 PM] Ninja#8225
heat rock onix was a threat too

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] Serene Grace#5243
lets ban cherubi again

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] Ninja#8225
leading pony vs onix was the only way to beat it

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
heat rock onix is significantly worse than dig though

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
17 spe vs 20

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] Ninja#8225
why don't we ban growth

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] LilyAC#7887
i dont think trapinch is broken

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] LilyAC#7887
but dig might be

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] levi#6206
Banning growth is a fire take

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] levi#6206
Let's do it

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
isnt bulbasaur just as annoying

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] Ninja#8225
Well the vhue team only has pony above 17 speed

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] hongli#4483
w 3 atks+sleep

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] Ninja#8225
so it's a threat

[19-Apr-20 10:01 PM] Ninja#8225
No way growth is by far the worst part

[redacted]

[27-Apr-20 12:22 PM] Shrug#7659
sun next

[27-Apr-20 12:23 PM] Shrug#7659
no trappers

[27-Apr-20 12:26 PM] Pablo#5523
facts

[redacted]

[27-Apr-20 12:53 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't think sun is banworthy over the trappers at the moment

[27-Apr-20 12:53 PM] Coconut#8762
I think this is so ridiculous

[27-Apr-20 12:53 PM] starmaster#8286
i think considering trapinch banworthy is a joke

[27-Apr-20 12:53 PM] starmaster#8286
diglett i can see, sure

[27-Apr-20 12:53 PM] Coconut#8762
I don't know if I'd vote ban on either trapper right now

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] Coconut#8762
but I'd rather suspect them over what, Sunny Day?

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] Coconut#8762
Chlorophyll?

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] Pablo#5523
bulba

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] Coconut#8762
bulba's really bad collateral

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] starmaster#8286
suns automatically bad w/o bulb ye

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] starmaster#8286
.

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] starmaster#8286
is it

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] starmaster#8286
whos using bulbasaur outside sun

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] starmaster#8286
ever

[redacted]

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] Coconut#8762
We don't know that for certain though

[27-Apr-20 12:54 PM] starmaster#8286
wdym

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
bulbasaur is literally

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Pablo#5523
weather ball isnt fire type technically

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
unviable

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Pablo#5523
lol.

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
outside sun

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Coconut#8762
UU is going through the same thing

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Coconut#8762
they could ban mega venu, which could fix the problem

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
.

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
u mean venu?

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Coconut#8762
but it's not 100% certain

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Pablo#5523
bulbasaur outside sun is just a oddish without good recovery

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Pablo#5523
and like

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Pablo#5523
knock ig

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] Coconut#8762
ya idk why I added mega

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
but yeah

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
bulb is completely outclassed

[27-Apr-20 12:55 PM] starmaster#8286
and venu doesnt exist in uu outside sun lol

[27-Apr-20 12:56 PM] Coconut#8762
we don't know the ramifications and if cherubi usage would rise

[27-Apr-20 12:56 PM] Coconut#8762
if we banned bulb

[27-Apr-20 12:56 PM] starmaster#8286
i mean sure u could try manual sun w/ cherubi

[27-Apr-20 12:56 PM] starmaster#8286
it wont be as good tho bc its not psn type and lacks resists

[27-Apr-20 12:56 PM] Coconut#8762
I think it could be almost as good

[27-Apr-20 12:56 PM] Coconut#8762
which is why I'd be skeptical to just toss bulba

[27-Apr-20 12:57 PM] Coconut#8762
I'm not convinced that would fix the problem

[27-Apr-20 12:57 PM] Coconut#8762
which isn't really a problem because manual sun isn't a problem

[27-Apr-20 12:57 PM] starmaster#8286
well if u want lowest collateral

[27-Apr-20 12:57 PM] starmaster#8286
and guaranteed fix

[27-Apr-20 12:57 PM] starmaster#8286
u can do heat rock

[27-Apr-20 12:57 PM] starmaster#8286
sun is for sure bad as fucking shit w/o heat rock

[27-Apr-20 12:57 PM] Coconut#8762
Heat Rock's up there for certain

[27-Apr-20 12:58 PM] Coconut#8762
would we consider unbanning pix

[27-Apr-20 12:58 PM] Coconut#8762
if we banned heat rock

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] Shrug#7659
yea i think we gotta get in the lab and figure out the real problem w sun

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] Shrug#7659
like what would x it out most efficiently and w the least problems

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] Pablo#5523
jangmo-o

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] LilyAC#7887
i think dig's trapping makes sun a lot better

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] Pablo#5523
make it fighting type

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] Pablo#5523
and give it good moves

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] LilyAC#7887
bc you can pick what you set sun vs

[27-Apr-20 01:01 PM] LilyAC#7887
and then use it as setup bait w bulba

[27-Apr-20 01:42 PM] levi#6206
i think dig makes chloro better but its also the main limiting factor to pony

[27-Apr-20 01:43 PM] levi#6206
which synergizes super well w chloro and is a sun abuser on its own too

[27-Apr-20 01:50 PM] BurntZebra#8147
yeah without dig, pony in sun is really hard to deal with

[27-Apr-20 01:50 PM] levi#6206
no strong pref for whether dig or bulba should be the suspect but i definitely dont agree with the implication that bulba shouldn't be the suspect because of collateral

[27-Apr-20 01:51 PM] levi#6206
i dont think that makes sense to consider if it's genuinely a problem

[27-Apr-20 01:51 PM] Shrug#7659
i think im for bulba or heat rock

[27-Apr-20 01:51 PM] levi#6206
we're already reducing it to a single mon, one that's surely less impactful than diglett in terms of collateral too (if we're seeing those issues as intertwined, which im not confident of)

[27-Apr-20 01:51 PM] levi#6206
i would rather bulba over heat rock for sure

[27-Apr-20 01:52 PM] levi#6206
cherry sun is more viable than sunless bulba and v unlikely to be busted imo

[27-Apr-20 01:52 PM] Shrug#7659
my one concern w heat rock is that it turns bulba shit into just a 3 turn guessing game

[27-Apr-20 01:52 PM] Shrug#7659
like it can still x shit out but

[27-Apr-20 01:52 PM] levi#6206
or yeah that nasty 5 turn sun

[27-Apr-20 01:52 PM] levi#6206
that sounds awful

[27-Apr-20 01:52 PM] Shrug#7659
it's prolly not broken but

[27-Apr-20 01:57 PM] levi#6206
id rather maintain [cherry/oddish sun] than [heatrock-less bulba sun and whatever sunless bulba is supposed to do] in terms of collateral i think

[27-Apr-20 08:06 PM] hongli#4483
i think dig is still

[27-Apr-20 08:06 PM] hongli#4483
such a big part of what makes sun broken

[27-Apr-20 08:07 PM] hongli#4483
sets up sun for 8 turns guaranteed because it's so fast, and can memento to let bulba growth for free vs whatever target it chooses

[27-Apr-20 08:08 PM] hongli#4483
plus it's not like sun is the only thing that makes diglett iffy

[27-Apr-20 08:08 PM] hongli#4483
it has other great cores too

[27-Apr-20 08:19 PM] levi#6206
but if theyre not broken then it's collateral

[27-Apr-20 08:19 PM] levi#6206
if its part of a ton of great cores but only one of them is seriosuly suspect-worthy then id rather suspect bulbasaur which has way less collateral

[27-Apr-20 08:19 PM] hongli#4483
i mean im of the opinion that vully+dig or timb+dig is broken too but

[27-Apr-20 08:19 PM] hongli#4483
that's not what i was insinuating

[27-Apr-20 08:20 PM] hongli#4483
my point was that it has one super op core and other ones that push it even further

[27-Apr-20 08:20 PM] hongli#4483
making it broken in terms of all-around support

[27-Apr-20 08:20 PM] levi#6206
burr is very difficult to fit onto sun i think

[27-Apr-20 08:20 PM] Shrug#7659
dig good

[27-Apr-20 08:20 PM] levi#6206
vull is relegated to support which idt is broken w dig

[27-Apr-20 08:21 PM] hongli#4483
who's talking about vull/burr on sun

[27-Apr-20 08:21 PM] hongli#4483
im talking about on their own w dig

[27-Apr-20 08:21 PM] levi#6206
and if theyre not used w bulba specifically then vulldig, burrdig are separate/independent issues

[27-Apr-20 08:21 PM] levi#6206
bulbadig shouldnt be treated as a dig issue because vulldig is also good

[27-Apr-20 08:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147
cant cottonee sunny day+memento as well

[27-Apr-20 08:23 PM] hongli#4483
yes but with cottonee you have agency

[27-Apr-20 08:23 PM] hongli#4483
because you can switch out

[27-Apr-20 08:23 PM] BurntZebra#8147
what do you switch to that doesnt let bulba kill it or set up +2

[27-Apr-20 08:24 PM] hongli#4483
something with t-wave

[27-Apr-20 08:24 PM] hongli#4483
pawn

[27-Apr-20 08:24 PM] hongli#4483
ponyta

[27-Apr-20 08:25 PM] hongli#4483
-2 76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bulbasaur in Sun: 20-26 (95.2 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

[27-Apr-20 08:26 PM] hongli#4483
even if u dont have rocks up

[27-Apr-20 08:26 PM] hongli#4483
75% chance to ohko

[27-Apr-20 08:27 PM] hongli#4483
-2 196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bulbasaur in Sun: 14-18 (66.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

[27-Apr-20 08:27 PM] hongli#4483
this also puts bulb in range of trapinch fimp 75% of the time

[27-Apr-20 08:27 PM] hongli#4483
or pawn sucker

[27-Apr-20 08:27 PM] Shrug#7659
i mean what if u dont memento and use a setter that one of those mons cannot come in on

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] hongli#4483
what would the primary sun setters be w.o dig

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] hongli#4483
one of like

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] hongli#4483
onix/vully/ponyta/cotton?

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] Shrug#7659
koffing

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] hongli#4483
koffing's super slow

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] hongli#4483
that doesn't seem terribly good

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] Shrug#7659
i mean it's fast enough and can memento

[27-Apr-20 08:29 PM] Shrug#7659
faster than timburr

[27-Apr-20 08:30 PM] hongli#4483
yeah but are you staying in with timburr

[27-Apr-20 08:30 PM] hongli#4483
for the memento

[27-Apr-20 08:30 PM] hongli#4483
after it already sets sunny day

[27-Apr-20 08:31 PM] Shrug#7659
well what are you going out to

[27-Apr-20 08:31 PM] hongli#4483
ponyta

[27-Apr-20 08:31 PM] hongli#4483
vull

[27-Apr-20 08:32 PM] Shrug#7659
i mean are those not exploitable themselves

[27-Apr-20 08:33 PM] hongli#4483
what do you mean

[27-Apr-20 08:35 PM] BurntZebra#8147
like a sun team with shellder on it

[27-Apr-20 08:35 PM] levi#6206
i agree that bulba sun would be more bearable w dig gone but a) thats a roundabout way to do it unless theres another dig core thats outright banworthy or at least suspect-worthy

[27-Apr-20 08:35 PM] levi#6206
b) the collateral that comes w a dig ban could v much bring other issues, including making pony sun stronger

[27-Apr-20 08:35 PM] hongli#4483
well shellder just gets burned if it tries setting up vs pony

[27-Apr-20 08:35 PM] hongli#4483
and if it tries setting up vs vully

[27-Apr-20 08:35 PM] hongli#4483
you knock it and smth can revenge it later

[27-Apr-20 08:35 PM] hongli#4483
doesnt seem that bad

[27-Apr-20 08:36 PM] hongli#4483
isnt that a hypothetical

[27-Apr-20 08:36 PM] hongli#4483
we're not supposed to tier based off of that

[27-Apr-20 08:36 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i mean i dont think sun is overpowered if you run like vullaby+ponyta+another bulky thing that doesnt die to chlorophyll users

[27-Apr-20 08:36 PM] Shrug#7659
diglett makes the tier better

[27-Apr-20 08:36 PM] hongli#4483
we would just ban pony if that proves broken too

[redacted]

[27-Apr-20 08:37 PM] levi#6206
collateral is absolutely sth we should consider if we're looking at the issue as bulbadig

[redacted]

[27-Apr-20 08:37 PM] levi#6206
banning dig has more collateral than banning bulba

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
do we feel like dig is good for the meta

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
outside of sun

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] Shrug#7659
yes

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] hongli#4483
no

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
i think dig is a lot better for SM

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] BurntZebra#8147
than it is for SS

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] Shrug#7659
people need to use more pinch to reach trapper equilibrium

[27-Apr-20 08:38 PM] levi#6206
whether or not it's "good" for the meta

[27-Apr-20 08:39 PM] levi#6206
i believe that it's both definitely not broken outside of bulba and also far more impactful

[27-Apr-20 08:39 PM] levi#6206
it's a comfortable high tier

[27-Apr-20 08:39 PM] BurntZebra#8147
collateral is only important if the collateral is impactful