Barrett Brown Pat Frey Chat #4

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  1. ---------- Forwarded message ----------
  2. From: Patrick Frey <>
  3. Date: 2012/6/21
  4. Subject: Chat with Patrick Frey
  5. To:
  8. 12:23 AM Patrick: I thought Project PM was partially about posing as others using sock puppets
  9. 12:24 AM me: one second
  10. 12:28 AM okay, sorry
  11. Project PM has never been about that, where did you get that impression?
  12. Patrick: Maybe I'm wrong, I admit ignorance on the whole thing
  13. Vague memory
  14. 12:29 AM Something Rauhauser said, I think
  15. You don't know how to spell his name???
  16. 12:30 AM me: Okay, Project PM started in late 2009 and was originally intended to incubate experimental online activism/philanthropy/blogging setups, I talked about it in my outlets like HuffPo, Vanity Fair, Skeptical Inquirer when I was recruiting
  17. Patrick: Rauhauser has described himself as a participant
  18. 12:31 AM me: He probably thought of himself as a participant, he hung out in our IRC channel off and on for a while, originally under his own name
  19. 12:32 AM As I recall he was keen on telling us about various networks he was developing by which to keep congressmen appraised of policy info via their assistants or what have you
  20. 12:33 AM As back then, our focus was largely on building either a blogging network based around a schematic I designed, and then using a similar schematic for crowd-sourced projects along the lines of our Science Journalism Improvement Project
  21. at any rate, that's how I met the guy, I'm assuming he found out about PM via one of my HuffPo posts
  22. one sec, just saw you sent an e-mail
  23. 12:34 AM Patrick: Don't take offense
  24. me: Er, okay
  25. Patrick: It's characteristically blunt
  26. me: Regarding me being unlikely to take McCain at face value, that's absolutely true, considering the circumstances
  27. Patrick: Most people live their lives as bullshitters and I don't want to be that way
  28. me: but in this case he's excerpting something that Neal wrote in his own words
  29. 12:35 AM Patrick: True enough
  30. me: So it doesn't matter who put it forward and whether or not I trust the person excerpting it
  31. 12:36 AM I knew that Neal did something involving Twitter but didn't know the nature of it until I saw your post from the other day in which you lay out these various bizarre messages about this woman "asking for it" or what have you
  32. Patrick: What woman asking for it?
  33. I don't remember that
  34. 12:37 AM me: Also I understand your general suspicion since Neal has been involved in some extent with portions of Anonymous and all that,
  35. one sec, I'll show you
  36. 12:38 AM it's on one of your recent posts, him or one of his people say something like "you weren't raped it was rough sex"
  37. Patrick: OccupyRebellion
  38. Mocking Liberty Chick
  39. me: yes
  40. 12:39 AM Patrick: Well, look
  41. Everything I tell you is with the thought in mind that you could be the earnest Barrett Brown I like to think of you as being,
  42. or
  43. me: I guess the best way for me to get you to understand that I'm in earnest is to explain that I'm in some degree of contact with a huge number of people, and am not able or inclined to keep track of everything everyone does
  44. Patrick: You could be Neal's best buddy dispatched to find out what I know
  45. 12:40 AM I'll just tell the truth either way
  46. Neal has openly declared that he wants to see me:
  47. fired
  48. bankrupted
  49. sued
  50. disgraced
  51. prosecuted for God knows what crimes
  52. and so forth
  53. me: Yeah, I'm not sure how to convince you otherwise
  54. Patrick: I believe he is a psychopath
  55. And he is FIXATED on me by all accounts
  56. 12:41 AM Don't worry about it
  57. Again: I'm being straight with you no matter what your role is
  58. 12:42 AM He has done his level best to make it seem as though he was involved in my SWATting
  59. me: I would simply say that I don't hold you responsible for the things that McCain does, even though he has publicly accused me of being an FBI informant twice in the past month, because I know that every relationship is nuanced, that not everyone knows or approves of everything that every other person does that he has any sort of contact with
  60. Patrick: And though I know you have no love for federal law enforcement, I hope they get to the bottom of that
  61. You know McCain and I have scrapped
  62. me: Yes, I do
  63. Patrick: I have not taken back anything I said
  64. 12:43 AM But what I said was misportrayed by some
  65. And I believe he is doing an energetic and good job revealing Neal's role in the harassment suffered by me and others
  66. 12:44 AM Put it this way:
  67. Stacy McCain never took any action to have me killed
  68. I can't say the same about Neal with any confidence
  69. You a fan of Jay Leiderman?
  70. 12:45 AM me: Anyway, I wrote you that e-mail because I generally disapprove of what Neal seems to have been involved with, and am not asking you for any info, and will happily answer any questions you might have, although I haven't followed all of this closely enough to have much insight
  71. Patrick: Represents Commander X? Hero to Anonymous activists? Right?
  72. me: Yes and no
  73. He doesn't represent Commander X
  74. Patrick: Elaborate please
  75. Then the media articles I read are wrong
  76. Because they say he does
  77. 12:46 AM me: I met Leiderman a while back, he helped to arrange pro bono defense for many of the people who were raided and then charged with the DDOS attacks against Paypal last year
  78. Patrick: What a guy
  79. 12:47 AM You guys are supposedly in favor of free speech, right?
  80. me: X has another lawyer who actually technically repped him, Leiderman has simply assisted on that and other cases
  81. Patrick: But I guess you will profess ignorance on Leiderman's thug tactics against me
  82. Right?
  83. me: Excuse me
  84. 12:48 AM Patrick: You know he is representing someone suing me because of a BLOG POST I did
  85. Don't you???
  86. Do you not know that?
  87. me: I don't know what tactics you're referring to, and if you'd like to tell me I'll listen, but keep in mind that I don't know everything
  88. Patrick: I am asking
  89. Neal arranged for that representation
  90. me: Can you not ask by starting with "I guess you'll profess ignorance"?
  91. Patrick: OK
  92. 12:49 AM I feel defensive because I know you have had interactions with the guy and he is trying to sue me for a blog post
  93. It seems like you would know about that, but I'll be fair to you and just ask if you do
  94. 12:50 AM me: On whose behalf is he suing you, Neals?
  95. Patrick: Nadia Naffe
  96. Neal arranged it
  97. Neal and Leiderman have also discussed suing me and others for RICO
  98. me: I've seen her being retweeted, not sure exactly what her deal is?
  99. Patrick: Simple
  100. 12:51 AM Neal put her up to suing me
  101. On behalf of Kimberlin
  102. That's her deal
  103. The. End.
  104. me: So, they've sent you something about that?
  105. Patrick: Suing me and my boss, actually
  106. Nah
  107. I read about it all online
  108. On Breitbart Unmasked
  109. 12:52 AM On emails from Neal sent to others that they forward to me
  110. Etc.
  111. On Nadia's Twitter feed
  112. I know there is a civil claim against me and my boss
  113. But I get to learn all about it by reading about it on Twitter feeds and sites associated with Neal and Nadia and Kimberlin
  114. 12:53 AM Lawsuits to retaliate against people for commentary on public controversies: is that part of the Anonymous creed?
  115. Because it's sure part of Neal's creed
  116. And Kimberlin's
  117. 12:54 AM It would be interesting to see you publicly pronounce on this
  118. I thought Anonymous stood for free speech. But Neal's version stands for free speech of the sort he likes -- and retaliating against the sort he doesn't like
  119. 12:55 AM me: I've told you, just now, via e-mail, that I don't approve of Neal, and have apologized to you for having associated with him
  120. As for Anonymous
  121. Patrick: He also has gone after my wife on numerous occasions
  122. 12:56 AM Which is totally thuggish as she is a Democrat and doesn't even agree with my politics. But I love her because my life is about more than just politics
  123. me: There's quite a bit I don't approve of that has gone on under its "banner," and I've been pretty vocal about that
  124. Patrick: I am not a political automaton
  125. I am a human being with a family
  126. 12:57 AM me: You don't need to tell me that, I don't think you are
  127. Patrick: And a job that Neal Rauhauser and Brett Kimberlin are trying their level best to get me fired from
  128. A job I do well
  129. And honestly, and ethically
  130. And your pal Leiderman is part of their little jihad
  131. 12:58 AM me: Can you please slow down a bit and keep in mind that I'm trying to do the right thing here?
  132. Patrick: I wouldn't be talking to you if I didn't think that was at least a possibility
  133. me: The whole reason I approached you is that I've seen some of this via these recent posts and don't like what's been directed at you
  134. 12:59 AM Patrick: But I'm not stupid either, and I am suspicious, and if my suspicion is unfair as directed at you I hope you don't take it personally
  135. I am suspicious but open-minded
  136. You have always seemed to have a good heart
  137. 1:00 AM me: I understand that, but please remember, again, that I'm answering any questions you have
  138. Patrick: Maybe you fooled me but that's how you have come across
  139. me: If you want to trade stories about who's family is being targeted by who's faction, I can tell you some great stuff about what the FBI is doing to my mom
  140. Otherwise, let's keep this on point
  141. Patrick: Well, you owe it to yourself to learn more about Jay Leiderman and his involvement with trying to ruin my life
  142. 1:01 AM I'd listen to what the FBI is doing to your mom
  143. I'm no fan of the FBI these days as I think they have been cavalier about what happened to me and my family
  144. me: There's no reason for me to tell you about it because it won't help anything and it's not something you yourself did
  145. Patrick: OK
  146. 1:02 AM me: I just want you to understand that I'm also being targeted and that although I want to be helpful to whomever is being wronged, and do understand that you're being wronged, and although I'm willing to do whatever is the right thing even if it's going to cause me additional problems I don't need, I also don't want to be spoken to along those lines
  147. Patrick: There are people who would say I am crazy for even talking to you. Maybe I am. I assume the FBI monitors your chat logs, as I have always said. I don't say anything that I would be embarassed to have revealed
  148. 1:03 AM "I also don't want to be spoken to along those lines" -- what do you mean?
  149. me: As for Leiderman
  150. 1:04 AM Patrick: Look, I try to give everyone the respect they have earned. As far as I know, you have treated me with respect. I don't want you to see me as a sucker, but I don't mean to insult you in any way
  151. me: That's fine
  152. 1:05 AM Look, what questions do you have for me, and I'll answer them
  153. Patrick: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as I think you have tried to be straight with me
  154. Leiderman?
  155. Expound on him; brb
  156. 5 minutes
  157. 1:11 AM me: Well, mostly I just know him via efforts I was making in early 2011 to arrange pro bono defense for those who were raided, and he's also provided advice to various other activists and all of that, but vis a vis this situation with you, I don't know much. Neal sent me a message about six months ago give or take that he had gotten Leiderman to rep him on something but I didn't pay attention to what, or maybe he didn't say
  158. Patrick: Can you forward that?
  159. me: I don't know what he personally knows even about Reahauser, or what he's been told by him, or whatever
  160. 1:12 AM It wasn't an e-mail, is the problem
  161. Patrick: RaUhauser
  162.  So?
  163.  Screenshot it and forward it
  164. me: most of the communications I've gotten from him have been on IRC or Skype messaging
  165. 1:13 AM No, as in don't still have it, assuming you're not familiar with how IRC works but one has to actively log convos to keep them
  166. Patrick: Never used it
  167. 1:14 AM me: It's popular with Anons and the "other side" as well, sort of a niche medium
  168.  anyway
  169. Patrick: Well, if you truly disapprove of the guy and his actions, I would appreciate your forwarding whatever he has sent you in the past 1-2 years
  170. me: as for Skype
  171. Patrick: That you can
  172. 1:15 AM me: it only keeps from last 3 months, and the only text messages I have from him on skype consist of him expressing irritation that I haven't picked up his calls
  173.  as in
  174.  [3/8/2012 9:38:37 PM] Neal Rauhauser: meh
  175. [3/12/2012 1:15:15 AM] Neal Rauhauser: oh
  176. [5/25/2012 12:57:10 AM] Neal Rauhauser: Hey
  177. [6/1/2012 8:54:16 PM] * Missed call from Neal Rauhauser. *
  178. 1:16 AM Patrick: Well
  179. 1:17 AM How about what I described that Leiderman is doing to me? Thumbs up or thumbs down from you?
  180. me: as for gmail
  181. Patrick: Go ahead, about Gmail
  182. 1:18 AM me: I've got a number of messages from him over last year, most of which I never responded to, some of which appear to be sent to about ten people and are generally updates regarding his weiner twitter nonsense
  183. 1:19 AM Patrick: I'd be interested in all those
  184.  You already sent me a couple
  185. me: then some about occupy, a couple of irritating ones about something he didn't like about some aspect of Anon that he seems to have thought I had some control over, etc
  186. Patrick: I'd be interested in any and all emails from him
  187. 1:20 AM He's trying to destroy my life due to some fantasy he has (or at least professes to have) about me and Weiner
  188.  As if I would care that much about some Congressman from New York
  189. 1:21 AM me: there don't seem to be any more here with your name in them other than the two I sent you
  190. Patrick: Anything he has sent would be useful
  191. 1:22 AM Up to you
  192.  Don't know what you really think of him
  193.  As for Leiderman
  194.  I would like an answer as to your thoughts about his trying to sue me out of a job
  195. 1:23 AM me: Pat, I'd really have to see what Leiderman himself has said or done in regards to suing you out of your job before I comment on that
  196.  I haven't asked you to say anything about McCain trying to claim I'm likely to throw a grenade at the Pentagon
  197. 1:25 AM Patrick: Read my blog about Nadia Naffe
  198. me: Neal obviously has a tendency to exaggerate what he's doing and who approves/is involved, and frankly
  199. 1:26 AM Patrick:
  200. me: If I do get an indication that Leiderman is actually going to try to sue you, I'll talk to him and tell him to reconsider and pass on whatever message from you or do whatever else is appropriate from my end
  201. Patrick: Oh, Leiderman is the lawyer on the lawsuit against me
  202.  Read what I just sent you
  203. 1:27 AM me: So there is a lawsuit?
  204. Patrick: Right now it's a civil claim
  205.  A "tort claims act" claim
  206.  Precursor to a civil suit in regular court
  207.  Read the link I just sent
  208. 1:28 AM Also, this:
  209.  Nadia Naffe’s civil claim against me — Nadia Naffe has now filed a civil claim against me and my boss Steve Cooley — and the lawyer is Jay Leiderman, an online buddy of Neal Rauhauser’s who put out a request on a defense attorney mailing list to investigate whether any defense attorneys don’t like me. Although I have not seen the legal claim myself, excerpts of Naffe’s legal claim have appeared at the web site of self-described Kimberlin supporter and Rauhauser friend Before the claim was filed, Rauhauser and @BreitbartUnmasked encouraged Naffe to file the sorts of claims that appear in the civil claim.
  211. Naffe has publicly said that she plans to use her lawsuit against me to ask questions in discovery about the value of my house — a topic in which Rauhauser and @OccupyRebellion have expressed interest in the past. According to a friend of mine, Naffe has also said that she plans to ask me and my wife under oath the true identity of conservative blogger Ace of Spades. Which is not something she ought to care about, since Ace had never said a word about her (although he has now).
  216. You know who cares about Ace’s identity? Brett Kimberlin supporter @BreitbartUnmask. He has written entire posts about Ace’s identity. And before I was swatted, someone threatened me by email. That person threatened one other person the same night: Ace of Spades.
  218. Additionally, Brett Kimberlin has used a subpoena in the Seth Allen lawsuit to subpoena James O’Keefe’s stolen emails from Naffe — despite the fact that there has been a final judgment in that lawsuit.
  219.  From this post:
  221. 1:29 AM Leiderman is ABSOLUTELY a lawyer in a civil claim against me and my boss
  222.  Arranged by Neal
  224.  And
  225.  He was snooping around on me, using a defense attorney email list
  226.  I heard about it from the defense attorney on one of my cases
  227.  Said Leiderman sent out an email asking about me
  228. 1:30 AM me: And what is the complaint, or grounds?
  229. Patrick: Read this post:
  231. 1:31 AM Let me know when you're done
  232. 1:34 AM me: okay
  233. Patrick: See where I link her depo?
  234. me: So she's trying to sue you for having allegedly provided advice to O'Keefe?
  235. Patrick: It's hundreds of pages, straight from PACER
  236. me: or, rather, filing a bar complaint?
  237. 1:35 AM Patrick: Hang on one second
  238.  You see that
  239.  One, two, three = links to her depo
  240.  See it?
  241.  "The relevance of the laptop is described in her deposition, which I found on PACER as well, in three parts: one, two, and three. "
  242. 1:36 AM me: yes, these are PDFs that will take me a while to download
  243. Patrick: All public documents, you agree?
  244. me: sure
  245. Patrick: I found them on PACER
  246.  OK
  247.  Well, the idiots who uploaded them didn't redact what they were supposed to redact
  248.  So
  249.  For example
  250.  They asked her her SS#
  251.  It was in there
  252.  I had NO IDEA
  253. 1:37 AM Within maybe an hour or so of my putting it up, Ron Brynaert triumphantly announced on Twitter that I had published her SS#
  254.  Which of course I had no intention of doing
  255.  I IMMEDIATELY took it down
  256. me: Okay, let's stop right there, on Ron Brynaert
  257. 1:38 AM Patrick: But now she is suing me for, supposedly, deliberately putting up her SS#
  258.  To intimidate her
  259. me: You know that this guy has been harassing me as well?
  260. Patrick: I would believe it
  261.  He is CRAZY
  262.  Anyway
  263.  I took it down
  264.  Redacted it
  265. me: And thinks I run some sort of major conspiracy involving the media
  266. Patrick: And put it back up
  267.  And your pal Leiderman
  268.  Now sues me
  269.  Claiming I was trying to intimidate her
  270. 1:39 AM By publishing her SS# and her "medical records"
  271.  Because she was asked in the depo what medications she takes, and she answered
  272.  So:
  273.  I put up public docs from PACER
  274.  And Leiderman and Naffe sue me
  275.  There you have it
  276.  That is the claim
  277.  All arranged by Neal
  278.  And Kimberlin
  279. 1:40 AM I have the screenshots showing they arranged for Leiderman to be her lawyers
  280.  lawyer
  281.  And that they encouraged her to file a complaint with my office
  282.  Neal and Brett are using her and Leiderman to 1) sue me and 2) try to get me fired
  283.  Nice, ethical, and moral, huh?
  284.  You support that?
  285. 1:41 AM me: No, I don't
  286. Patrick: That's your pal Leiderman
  287.  He's in league with Neal on this
  288.  100%
  289.  100%
  290. me: So, what would you like me to do on this?
  291. Patrick: It's thuggish
  292.  It's anti free speech
  293. 1:42 AM It's everything you are supposedly against
  294.  Oppose it, publicly
  295.  Speak out
  296. me: Now, if I do so
  297.  As in, if I take up your side on this, publicly, in whatever outlets I have remaining to me
  298. Patrick: Yes?
  299. 1:43 AM You'll confuse the hell out of a lot of people
  300. 1:44 AM me: Are you going to follow my example and call out McCain for the several posts he's written about me being an FBI informant?
  301.  The reason I ask is because
  302. 1:45 AM I'm more than happy to answer your questions, like I have, things along those lines.
  303. 1:46 AM I just don't know what my responsibility should be to you, in terms of conflicts you're involved in with a lawyer to whom I'm somewhat indebted for having helped to ensure that various young people who are facing 15 years for DDOSing a corporate website get free legal representation
  304. 1:47 AM Like I said, I don't like Neal, and obviously Brett Kimberlin is deranged
  305. 1:48 AM It's just that you're asking me to take your side in a conflict between you and another party with whom I'm acquainted, Liederman, whereas I just don't think you would be inclined to take my side in a matter between and another party with whom you're acquainted, McCain
  306.  Do you think that's a reasonable question/point for me to make?
  307. Patrick: It comes down to this:
  308. 1:49 AM 1) Have I proven to you that the lawsuit against me is bullshit?
  309.  2) Have you proven to me that McCain's allegations about you are bullshit?
  310.  I like to think of myself as intellectually honest
  311.  You KNOW the shit I have taken from my side for calling them out when I thought it was right
  312. 1:50 AM Don't deny that
  313.  So
  314.  I am not looking for a "deal" here
  315. me: As for 2), you and I haven't spent 45 minutes discussing McCain's allegations against you, whereas we've just spent 45 minutes discussing Liederman's participation in something against you
  316. Patrick: If you prove to me that McCain is saying bullshit about you, I'll call it bullshit
  317. me: I don't mean to imply anything in terms of a "deal"
  318. Patrick: If you think I have proven Leiderman's lawsuit is bullshit, I'd like you to call it bullshit
  319.  Not a deal
  320. 1:51 AM Just intellectual honesty
  321.  Send me whatever proof you like that McCain is full of it
  322.  I'll look at it
  323.  I think I have a track record
  324.  I call out bullshit when I see it
  325. me: What I mean is that I would obviously have to think more about this and talk to Leiberman and see what exactly they're thinking in terms of this before I would go out and denounce him
  326. Patrick: You can't really plausibly deny that
  327. 1:52 AM Whatever
  328. me: Just as you would need me to show you and discuss what MCCain has said about me and why it's wrong before you'd go out and do anything about that
  329.  Again, does that make sense?
  330. Patrick: Nadia wants to use the lawsuit to out Ace of Spades
  331.  It's total fucking complete bullshit
  332. 1:53 AM me: Please keep in mind that I've forwarded you private e-mails from Neal concerning you, and I think that's a sign of good faith on my part
  333. 1:54 AM That I'm really trying to be intellectually honest and, moreover, functionally honest, despite the problems I would face to the extent that I get involved in this whole affair
  334. 1:55 AM I guess you left?
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