OTO Kidfuckers Oregon Black Mass

David Richard Jones
October 31, 2010 ·

is preparing for a Black Mass this Sunday with his sexy Girlfriend - then off to Fetish night.
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Marco Rodriguez
Marco Rodriguez Hedonist!
November 1, 2010 at 4:09am
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Tony Davis
Tony Davis It's people like you who are bringing this society crashing to the ground. Keep up the good work.
November 1, 2010 at 4:18am · 1
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Black Mass! Silly!
November 1, 2010 at 5:00am
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson Well, that's what it is. Naked chick on the altar and all.
November 1, 2010 at 5:23am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore @Craig: I hope your not talking about Liber XV...
November 1, 2010 at 5:24am
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson Did you think it was an accident that Liber XV conforms to the traditional imagery of the Black Mass?
November 1, 2010 at 5:26am · 1
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Ugh. Ignorance.
November 1, 2010 at 5:32am
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson Yes, on your side.
November 1, 2010 at 5:33am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore @Craig: So, I assume your extensive Celebration of Liber XV through Officiating the Mass as a Priest has led you to this conclusion?
November 1, 2010 at 6:29am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore (now that I've cooled down)
November 1, 2010 at 6:30am
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson <-- shakes head in disbelief
November 1, 2010 at 6:35am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore No answer, eh?
November 1, 2010 at 6:36am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore I thought as much. (Sorry, David. I'm not usually combative online. At all. He simply pissed me off at the same time I actually had a few minutes to spare.)
November 1, 2010 at 6:42am
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Tony Davis
Tony Davis You kidding? The more like the Black Mass it is, the more I like it. The Sun at midnight is ever the Sun. Roll roll roll your dung, gently 'cross the sky. Kephera Kephera Kephera Kephera, Ra will never die!
November 1, 2010 at 6:52am · 5
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Whatever. I'm sure your extensive collection of black t-shirts is a joy to behold.
November 1, 2010 at 6:53am
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Tony Davis
Tony Davis Oh my sweet lord you are a prickly one. Back in my day, sonny, that wasn't such a goofy thing to say. My black t-shirts probably say the same damn thing yours do. 'Serious' Thelemites who fight on teh interwebz are made for poking.

The old rituals are black.

If the new ones make everyone sour and dour, I think I'll go read e.e. cummings or something.
November 1, 2010 at 6:58am · 2
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore I simply don't enjoy playing into the hands of the fundies by engaging in juvenile stereotypes.
November 1, 2010 at 7:20am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Oh, and boo! (heehee)
November 1, 2010 at 7:23am
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson Charles, not everyone is so lacking in a life that they are continually available to debate on Facebook, and in any case it seems pretty clear that attempting to educate you would be a wasted effort. However, if "playing into the hands of the fundies" is a concern, then you have already doomed yourself. "Fear is failure, and the forerunner of failure."
November 1, 2010 at 7:44am · 1
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Actually, this is the first internet fight I've ever had. I usually refuse to engage in this sort of stupidity, because it is stupidity. I'll now take off my troll costume. It wasn't fun; it wasn't amusing. Plus, you never even answered my simple question. I don't believe you have any sort of qualification to educate anyone in anything.
November 1, 2010 at 7:54am
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson The trouble is that it's idiotic to think that officiating at the Mass is required to understand it. I certainly know lots of people who have officiated many, many times at the Mass yet remain completely clueless about it. In any case, I see no reason to believe that your qualifications are any better than anyone else's; you haven't shown a single sign of intelligence in this entire conversation.
November 1, 2010 at 8:10am · 1
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Christ. You are an idiot. Now, stay the fuck away from me.
November 1, 2010 at 8:29am
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Dennis Duvaul
Dennis Duvaul In the eyes of the Catholic Church, the Gnostic Mass is a Black Mass, including the naked women on the alter. Of course the Priest is not a dre-frocked Catholic Priest, and there is no spitting or stomping on the cross, so it would not a be the traditional Black Mass.

There is a reason Aleister Crowley labeled it Liber 15, figure it out.
November 1, 2010 at 8:38am · 2
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So Loon
So Loon Hahahaha! Very entertaining; Thank You gentlemen.
November 1, 2010 at 8:50am · 1
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David Richard Jones
David Richard Jones @Charles - it is Liber XV for a reason, Crowley is purposefully conforming in many ways to the model of the traditional Black Mass as is explicitly stated in Liber 24 (not unfortunately the paired down version given in King's Secret Rituals) But the Liber # explicitly identifies it wth the Devil Atu in the Tarot.
November 1, 2010 at 9:29am
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson David, I guess we're both idiots! Welcome to the club.
November 1, 2010 at 10:11am
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David Richard Jones
David Richard Jones It's kind of a shock to a lot of Thelemites how many Satanic elements there actually are. One of my Coph Nians calls us post Satanic };-)>
I mean Crowley was the Beast 666, we worship Babalon the whore of the Apocalypse, Crowley's invocation of his Holy Guardian Angel is directed at Satan, the Gnostic Mass is numbered for the Devil card etc. etc. ad nauseum. Nonetheless it either goes unnoticed or in denial. Even the Wiccans are in serious denial about Gardner's use of the horned God, but then they have mostly never read Ye Boke of Arte Magick either, their own Books of Shadows were thoughtfully cleansed of Satanic elements by Doreen Valiente.
November 1, 2010 at 10:39am · 5
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Craig Dickson
Craig Dickson Would you accept someone as a Christian if they were in denial about Christianity having something to do with Jesus? That's kind of how I feel about Thelemites who don't want to admit to the existence, let alone the central importance, of Satanism in Thelema. "Hush, tell nobody ever, that is Satan, and he is the Saviour of the World."
November 1, 2010 at 10:45am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore @David: I know almost nothing about Liber XXIV. However, I tagged you all in a short note. Now, back to something far more important.
November 1, 2010 at 11:22am
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000130793514...
November 1, 2010 at 11:30am
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Gerund Spekinewicz
Gerund Spekinewicz You can't judge a Liber by its cover. But you can a fetishist at an...oy vey...fetish ball.
November 1, 2010 at 1:14pm
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Keith Shallcross Schuerholz
Keith Shallcross Schuerholz The people in So Cal have been doing their best to take away the diabolic, satanic elements from Thelema for decades now. Whether its Eshelman, or any of his former students and friends, the same beat goes on - the same middle class demands, the same aspirations for "respectability," the same hostility towards AC. Whether its middle aged women doing the "partial cover" during Mass, or the disinterest in what Crowley actually taught, or the blowing off of "De Cultu," it's all the same and it all sucks.
November 1, 2010 at 11:06pm · 6
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Maria V. Montgomery
Maria V. Montgomery I have mentioned the connection of Liber XV to the 15th Atu of the Tarot and to A.E. Waite's Devil Worship in France a few times down there. It never got any traction.
November 1, 2010 at 11:09pm
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Keith Shallcross Schuerholz
Keith Shallcross Schuerholz This is another reason why MWT never gets any traction either. It tells them all the things they don't want to hear...
November 1, 2010 at 11:11pm
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Justin Bunn
Justin Bunn I just noticed this and am not sure if anybody mentioned "La Bas" yet? It is after all on the A.'. A.'. reading list...no big deal though...its only something Crowley recommended. But we all no how most OTO folks feel about doing the things Crowley recommends. :)
November 2, 2010 at 1:22am
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Marie C Lecrivain
Marie C Lecrivain To Keith 418, 93. Boy are you out of the Loop! not all of us middle-aged women cover up during Masss, and for you to make such a blatant assertion is not only ridiculous, but also disrespectful. Every man and evry woman is a star, and it's not about respecability,^@ks about respect for each person's@rue Will. 93s, Marie
November 2, 2010 at 2:03am
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Keith Shallcross Schuerholz
Keith Shallcross Schuerholz I think this vile cover-up practice disrespects the mass, the OTO, and the EGC. If you have a problem with my opinion, I don't care.
November 2, 2010 at 2:05am · 1
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Marie C Lecrivain
Marie C Lecrivain To K: I'm of the naked variety (smile), for me, though I don't question others' need to do so. I was saying that you made a blanket statement that is patently untrue. I haven't seen you at any masses in the SoCal area this year, so how would you know that that statement you made has any basis in fact?
November 2, 2010 at 2:14am
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Brendan Joseph Petroff
Brendan Joseph Petroff Are you saying, Marie, that covering up for Mass isn't a "thing" in the local community? It sure seems to happen an awful lot....
November 2, 2010 at 2:17am · 1
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Keith Shallcross Schuerholz
Keith Shallcross Schuerholz It wasn't a blanket statement. I know plenty of women don't do this in the OTO - just like I know plenty of people who thought the "blank cakes" idea was horrible. But if you want to judge me for judging the "partial priestesses"- then I think I have the right to judge them as I see fit. And I think the practice is vile and disgusting and I'm not afraid to say so. If you don't like that, too bad.
November 2, 2010 at 2:17am
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Maria V. Montgomery
Maria V. Montgomery @Brendan - It does!
November 2, 2010 at 2:29am
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Marie C Lecrivain
Marie C Lecrivain To Brendan and Maria, I am saying that from what I have seen and practiced, it's more the exception than the rule. to Keith, you are entitled to your *judgement*, however, what you said was it was a practice in the SoCal area... and that is *not* true, based on my own experience. So, prove me wrong, and come down to a mass the next time I priestess.:)
November 2, 2010 at 3:08am
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Maria V. Montgomery
Maria V. Montgomery I don't know Marie, it seems to be at least 50% of the time. I am glad that you, as priestess, are joyfully bare though.
November 2, 2010 at 3:14am
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Maria V. Montgomery
Maria V. Montgomery Whether a priestess chooses to disrobe or not does not still mean that when Crowley wrote Liber XV he wasn't also keenly aware of the traditional imagery of The Black Mass. Such imagery is seen in Waite's Devil Worship in France and described at length in La Bas, which as Justin noted above, is in the AA extended reading list.
November 2, 2010 at 3:23am
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Brendan Joseph Petroff
Brendan Joseph Petroff I see it happen a lot Marie. That and the "second step" rule have become ingrained into the local culture. When I first joined the OTO only two priestesses (that I know of) wore the "veils". Now, there are only a handful who go bare. I'm glad you're one of them but let's not pretend that it's super-rare and almost never happens. It happens all the time.

The second step rule is explicitly enforced in Star Sapphire - even among Mass teams who don't want to use it. You'll notice it appears nowhere in the Mass script. "The DEACON marshals them; they advance one by one to the altar." Again, the point isn't that someone CAN'T stop before the steps, but rather that they aren't ALLOWED to progress further, even if the Priestess in question prefers that they do.

Likewise, it's not that you CAN'T appear naked (as the script specifies) but rather that the script is violated frequently as a matter of custom in the name of "modesty". Which is kind of a problem, in my opinion.

And lets not even get started on de-natured cakes. If one more person tells me that Liber AL specifies ash instead of actual "essence", I shall scream and throw a book on English punctuation and grammar at them.
November 2, 2010 at 3:23am
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Keith Shallcross Schuerholz
Keith Shallcross Schuerholz If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't fit, don't put it on. The other people in So Cal on this thread say it happens a lot. It sucks regardless.
November 2, 2010 at 3:24am
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Maria V. Montgomery
Maria V. Montgomery It seems as though the Mass has become the ultimate holy cow in the OTO. One can say anything they want about Crowley; I've heard people call his writing in Liber Aleph as "drug addled" and that offended me far more than any of this Mass debate, but denigrate the Mass and people are up in arms!
November 2, 2010 at 3:29am · 2
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Keith Shallcross Schuerholz
Keith Shallcross Schuerholz This is because the mass is all they can do and all they can relate to. The Holy Books, De Cultu, etc. are all to too onerous, too transgressive, or impossible to understand for either the poorly educated or the indoctrinated.
November 2, 2010 at 3:33am
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Brendan Joseph Petroff
Brendan Joseph Petroff And note that it isn't necessarily the Mass "as written", but rather the Mass "as practiced here".
November 2, 2010 at 3:35am
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Joseph Clinton Ragan
Joseph Clinton Ragan My experience of the Gnostic Mass was radically shifted when i participated as Deacon in the wedding of two dear friends. The family of the bride , Xtians from Indiana, was to my left...the host of velvety freaky friends was to my right. I stood in between those for whom this was just another lovely Gnostic Mass and those who were intensely reading their bibles in order to protect themselves from the "evil".
Usually, Liber XV is conducted in a space where everyone is "on-board" and into the symbolism and meaning. Maybe a few people just "checking it out". This was the first time that I saw it through the eyes of those who were completely outside of it.
Suddenly, actions took on whole new meanings.
November 2, 2010 at 4:29am
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Justin Bunn
Justin Bunn I've noticed a constant refrain from many people in the OTO that goes something like, "don't confuse me with logic and facts, I've already made up my mind thank you". Many people involved in this discussion are no different.
November 2, 2010 at 6:47am
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Tony Davis
Tony Davis Drug addled isn't necessarily a pejorative in Thelemic circles. Or if it is, it shouldn't be.
November 2, 2010 at 7:00am · 1
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Maria V. Montgomery
Maria V. Montgomery In this case it most clearly was. Crowley's drug use was cited as the reason why De Cultu need not be adhered to.
November 2, 2010 at 7:03am
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Brendan Joseph Petroff
Brendan Joseph Petroff I hear what you're saying Tony, but "addled" is probably the key word - rather than "inspired". I was there for the convo in question (or one similar enough as to make no difference) and Maria is right. It was meant in a pejorative sense.
November 2, 2010 at 7:18am
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David Richard Jones
David Richard Jones @Maria L. - I am glad that you are naked on the altar and I do respect the policy and the rights of the priestesses to rerobe, but please accept that some of us are genuinely offended by the various practices of covering that are practiced in the EGC. Some of take the Book of the Law rather more seriously than we take the idea of personal modesty or the idea of political correctness in that we should merely accept the idea without comment or opinion because it is now O.T.O. policy. Rerobiing in front of those who are not members of the O.T.O. or esp. minors can be seen as a legitimate interpretation of the barbarous countries clause, but realistically since there is no law against such nudity as there was in Crowley's time I find even this to be a rather flimsy excuse. If one believes that Liber L I:62 & II:52 mean what they say then forgive us if some of us find the rerobing an affront to the Book of the Law, since by definition covering the body here is an act of modesty and to choose partial or full clothing is the epitome of modesty, in direct contradistinction to what many of us believe is the holiest of texts and the rule and guide of our lives and beliefs. I fully accept the right of priestesses to rerobe but don't expect any of us to be happy about it or not complain about it when we believe it is our duty to openly stand up for the principles of the Book of the Law.
November 2, 2010 at 7:37am · 3
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Kate Jones
Kate Jones LOL! This thread has inadvertently raised some very pertinent issues, but has been taken out of context from the get-go because we were actually preparing for a "black mass" of the Gnostic Mass as an Oasis Halloween Celebration (not held at the time of our regular weekly masses & not for the public) of that thin veil between life & death, light & dark, good & evil... "Save me from evil & from good" and let's keep it Liber XV for a reason!
November 2, 2010 at 7:51am · 2
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David Richard Jones
David Richard Jones @Charles - Crowley references Huysmans' La Bas and Waite's Devil Worship in France on this point. Crowley is clearly modeling the Gnostic Mass on elements depicted in the classic French version of the Black Mass and states so in Liber XXIV. You are certainly free not to read anything you want not to read for whatever reasons but I would refer you to Liber XXX on this point: "Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and willfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices." The actual text is available in the Naylor edited O.T.O. Rituals and Sex Magic and elucidates quite of few of the more obscure elements contained in Liber XV as does Liber C in the same book.

Modern Martinists are also in denial about their historical involvement in the Black Mass but our form of neo-Gnosticism derives directly from the French diabolism of the late 19th C. and appealed to Crowley for rather obvious reasons. And although the practices were falsified and sensationalized in the Leo Taxil scandal there were truths at the core of them as Crowley points out in his references to Waite's Devil Worship. If you are interested in the literature on the subject in general I refer you to excellent chapters on the subject in Tompkins Magic of Obelisks or to the primary sources he references there if you can read French.
November 2, 2010 at 7:53am
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James Barros
James Barros One observation I've made, which seemed to get a bit of interesting response locally, was that the priestess is at her own discretion to rerobe, as per OTO rules, but as per the script, she is to rerobe in "savage country" ergo, to rerobe is to declare the place you are in to be savage country. It's then interesting to see who does, and in what company.
November 2, 2010 at 7:55am · 2
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Yeah, De Cultu's too onerous, oooh booga booga! I just spent the last 11 months memorizing the Libers XXX1, LVX, VII, 'cuz I'm too damn lazy to carve them in pure black marble. You guys really need to stop sounding like a bunch hyenas captured on a deeply scratched 45 record. Oh, wait are ya gonna disallow this post too, 'cuz I don't have Davey's cock in mouth and Keith's up my ass, ya frickin' slaves.
November 2, 2010 at 11:43am
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Tony Davis
Tony Davis What I love is that Thelema makes everyone better people!
November 2, 2010 at 12:14pm
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Maria V. Montgomery
Maria V. Montgomery @Charles - Is that wishful thinking on your part?
November 2, 2010 at 12:21pm · 1
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Kate Jones
Kate Jones ...pausing to take DRJ's cock out of my mouth to tell you that no posts have been disallowed on this post, nor does David ever do that on his page.
November 2, 2010 at 12:21pm · 2
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Hey, I've no problem with sex. Well, maybe my stupid cell phone that I dropped in the tub did it. ; )
November 2, 2010 at 1:11pm
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Charles Claymore
Charles Claymore Night all...It was well...
November 2, 2010 at 1:12pm
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David Richard Jones
David Richard Jones I remember one evening long ago when I first truly realized what I had gotten myself into, reciting Liber Samech for the thousand thousandth time or so, running in my head whereever I was.

"Ho for the Sangraal! Ho for the Cup of Babalon! Ho for mine Angel pouring Himself forth within my Soul!" "The Eye! Satan, my Lord! The Lust of the goat!" "Mine Angel! Mine initiator! Thou one with me --- the Sixfold Star!

For some reason the Satanic nature had never quite stuck in my mind. And I realized that here I was the master of some black lodge of dark magicians, beautiful boys and girls who danced debaucherously for my amusement and plied my every whim with fervor, refinement, and delicious perversions beyond even the subtlties of my blasphemous mind; calling upon the dark lord, consorting with demons and angels, babbling at all hours of the night in ancient archaic tongues to demons, angels and forgotten gods and partaking of every seduction imaginable. I found it a delightful surprise myself, but it says somewhere, "But were the Minveral to suspect this truth, would he not turn to flee in terror from the Camp and be cut down by the Black Guard that wardeth even the outmost marches of the Kingdom of the Most Holy and Most High Lord God Almighty?"

So maybe you joined a Satanic Cult and you celebrate the Black Mass, is it really such a bad thing? Relax, take your shoes off and set a spell and enjoy the show. There are certainly worse things you could be doing with your life. There are after all, if you learn to play the game: unimaginable joys on earth, certainty not faith while in life, upon death.

And riddle me this brother Claymore; In the Gnostic Mass the Priestess says, "In the name of our Lord the Sun and in the name of our Lord . . ." that triple dot is an ellipsis indicating that something is left out, do you happen to know what it is? It might surprise you, but it was noted in Crowley's own set of the Equinox so the answer is known and quoted in other places in Crowley's published though somewhat more secret Libri. I'll give you a hint from an open source, Liber XCV

. . . in the first we came to a mighty throne of gray granite, shaped like the sweetest pussy cat you ever saw, and set up on a desolate heath.
It was midnight, and the Devil came down and sat in the midst; but
my Fairy Prince whispered: "Hush! it is a great secret, but his name
is Yeheswah, and he is the Saviour of the World." And that was very
funny, because the girl next me thought it was Jesus Christ, till another
Fairy Prince (my Prince's brother) whispered as he kissed her: "Hush,
tell nobody ever, that is Satan, and he is the Saviour of the World."
We were a very great company, and I can't tell you of all the strange
things we did and said, or of the song we sang as we danced face out
wards in a great circle ever closing in on the Devil on the throne.
But whenever I saw a toad or a bat, or some horrid insect, my Fairy
Prince always whispered: "It is the Saviour of the world" and I saw
that it was so. We did all the most beautiful wicked things you can
imagine, and yet all the time we knew they were good and right, and
must he done if ever we were to get to the House of Gold.
November 2, 2010 at 1:23pm · 3
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James Barros
James Barros don't confuse agreeing with someone when they're right, with being their lap dog. Hell, I've been kicked off and defriended by people, still truth or falsehood stands on it's own.

Are a lot of the classifications of LA incorrect? I've found ones I didn't think were applicable in most cases, but overall, I think the ones that upset us the most, are the ones we really need to look at. Obviously, if it hits a nerve, there's something there worth examining. ;)
November 2, 2010 at 1:50pm · 1