Torment discussion

<iLLHunter> has anyone tried rite of the Forest with a silverwood sapling? can we grow magical forest with the rite?
<iLLHunter> nm, i don't think it would work anyway
<iLLHunter> i can make magical forest by growing silverwood trees with pure nodes, but they still don't grow mana beans. needs to be an actual magical forest for that i guess
<Dashkal> Is there a mechanism in Witchery to stop the rain?
<TheMadman> I recall there being an infusion branch spell that called rain. I don't recall if it can stop it.
<Dashkal> Ahh well.  Right now the only way I have is to make it night with the blood ritual and sleep, which only works if I'm alone on the server.
<iLLHunter> yeah a few ways to make rain/lightning. i dont know of any to stop rain
<iLLHunter> rite of skys wrath
<iLLHunter> might be a good request to make on MCF thread ;)
* Wastl2 ([email protected]) has joined
<Dashkal> Hmm, I may head a little ways down lycanthropy.  Thinking tier 4.  I'd love a 1 high alternate form.
<TheMadman> You also have potions of resizing, to shrink or grow depending on potency of the effect.
<Dashkal> Hmm...  Never head of that *checks brews*
<TheMadman> I recall it being a power six effect.
<iLLHunter> yep, emerald
<Dashkal> That would be a significantly easier way to accomplish this.
<iLLHunter> while you're making brews of resizing, if you plan to face Leonard at some point, making some shrinking potions is a good idea. They are needed during one stage of the battle with Leonard
<Dashkal> Honestly, I'm adverse enough to going in blind that was probably just not going to engage him
<iLLHunter> well if its anything like fighting a torment demon, the fight is stacked against you. death is very probable, so you have to way the return: is Leonards Urn useful enough to you to warrant the fight
<iLLHunter> s/way/weigh
<iLLHunter> I am sure torment is fun to use, and I understand it had to be difficult to obtain, but knowing what I know now, I won't be going after that infucion in the future. the return is not worth the risk, imo
<iLLHunter> infusion*
<iLLHunter> i mostly did it bc i like to fight bad-ass bosses
<iLLHunter> this was just crazy. I had to hit him around 100 times and could only be hit by him 6 times before death
<TheMadman> Well, Emoniph wanted the fight to be fair for both the player and the boss...
<iLLHunter> can't say its a fair fight, at all
<iLLHunter> its stacked against the player
<iLLHunter> i understand it had to be a difficult fight
<domi> it should be less than 100 if you use it's weakness
<TheMadman> He does a set percentage against you, you do a set amount against him.
<iLLHunter> at 100 to 6, its def not balanced though
<TheMadman> It was a percentage so you can't breeze through it with a silly high amount of HP.
<domi> also with health pots and you having 20 health you sould be able to last for a loong time even with bad doging
<Dashkal> Yeah, I'm not seeing why I'd bother
<iLLHunter> exactly Madman. his hits take a percentage of your health but your hits are fixed per hit. can't say that is a fair fight
<Dashkal> At least given the description on the page, the reward isn't of value to me.
<Ametros> Players can improve, prepare for the fight or become more skilled. The boss can only do what was programmed. :P
<iLLHunter> and if you can only be hit by him 6 times before death, experimenting and finding his 'weakness' can be difficult and deadly
<TheMadman> It is fair in that that hit will kill you in X number of hits, and he will die in Y number of hits regardless of what you use.
<iLLHunter> Madman when X and Y are 6 and 100 though
<iLLHunter> Vegas cringes at those odds
<TheMadman> The only reason he dealt 100 damage is you had a silly amount of HP.
<Dashkal> Sounds like you are intended to block yourself off and use indirects
<iLLHunter> but as we mentioned it does not matter how much damage he does per hit, its a percentage
<iLLHunter> if i had 20 health i would still die in 6 hits
<iLLHunter> and would still only inflict 5 damage per sword hit to him
<iLLHunter> 5 damage, 500 health for boss = 100 hits
<TheMadman> So if you had twenty point of HP, as per normal, he would deal roughly a heart and a half worth of damage. Easy enough to heal under regeneration.
<Ametros> Assuming health pots and the like are allowed, having less health would actually be advantageous.
<Ametros> ^^
<Dashkal> Erm...  I'm screwed then.  I havce 60
<Dashkal> Punishing a player for having health is... an odd mechanic
<Ametros> If you're using TiCon hearts, just unequip them.
<Dashkal> derp, that's a tihng isn't it.
<iLLHunter> agreed Dashkal
<Dashkal> Still, I have little stake here.  The wand... That's a fiddly thing that I'm unlikely to put in the time to not suck at.
<Ametros> I wonder how/if it would account for runic shielding.
<iLLHunter> Ametros I had full TC hearts red and yellow, plus i run the more health mod
<Dashkal> Yeah, this seems strange.  It doesn't balance vs high heath, it becomes more difficult.
<iLLHunter> cant remove the health from more health mod. its earned through experience and from zelda-style heart containers obtained from beating bosses like wither boss
<iLLHunter> kill a bunch of withers get a ton of health
<TheMadman> Well consider it this way: Would it be a fair fight if he was locked to dealing a heart and a half of damage?
<iLLHunter> yes Dashkal I dont feel it is balanced either. I am ok with that, as long as people are aware of it going into thefight
<Dashkal> It's unfair either way?
<Dashkal> Crappy mechanic
<Ametros> Well, I'm a fan of things having challenge to them, so when somebody manages to get an absurd amount of health so as to trivialise almost everything... I applaud the exception. :P
<Dashkal> Those of us who put in the effort to get there /want/ things trivialized
<Dashkal> That was the entire point
<iLLHunter> i like the boss the way it is, percentage vs fixed, I just think it is unbalced
<Dashkal> Being told "No, fuck you, you're playing wrong and may not pass" is, well, crappy.
<iLLHunter> 6 to 100 is not balanced/fair.
<iLLHunter> but I'm not looking to adjust it bc I realize it has to be hard to obtain
<Ametros> I like it because to have to think, prepare and compensate. Can't just rush in swinging with without a care.
<iLLHunter> LOL
<iLLHunter> you can't "think" when fighting him
<iLLHunter> you'll be dead in 6 hits
<Ametros> I don't really like bosses being trivialised all that much. Especially endgame things.
<iLLHunter> let me try this weapo...dead
<Ametros> And after you've died, will you think then, or just try the same failure again?
<Dashkal> When I want that kind of game, that's what I put together
<Dashkal> The entire reason I roll my own packs is so I get to determine what kind of game I'm going to play
<iLLHunter> I think the current ratio and mechanic used trivializes our own health
<iLLHunter> me too dashkal I am a roll my own type of guy
<iLLHunter> bc I'm never happy with others' packs. always missing something or they use some weird mechanic that does not make sense
<TheMadman> Well, name a better way to do it that keeps the boss challenging when you have a ridiculous amount of health that is fair for both the player and the boss.
<Dashkal> Change the scaling ratio so it accounts for the lower access to healing large percentages of your health
<Dashkal> It'd be one thing if it effectively ignored your hp.  The problem is this actively punishes you for having higher hp.
<TheMadman> Or the boss fight forcibly sets you to twenty points of HP at the start, and prevents you from gaining more then that while the boss deals a fixed amount.
<Dashkal> Screw hp. Stacking debuff.  hits 10, you die.  Healing effects can knock stacks off.
<TheMadman> That is more Lenards mechanic.
<Dashkal> That's his mechanic without punishing you for having extra hp.
<TheMadman> Right. You need to clear the boss phase in one minute and thirty seconds or you die. No exceptions, your HP is set to zero.
<Dashkal> Mrh, why am I allowing myself to be drawn into this?
<Dashkal> I have no intention of ever engaging him
<TheMadman> That is how lenards' fight works, thanks to the "Mortal coil" effect.
<iLLHunter> yeah, the torment demon mechanic seems fine, it is just not proportionate. as you said 1 1/2 hearts per hit is healable but when hes wacking each hit with super high damage there is no recovery. that is punishing players who have worked for higher health
<iLLHunter> and that does not seem fair to me
<TheMadman> I'll post this log to the witchery forum, for others to read and give feedback on. Seem fair to you?
<Dashkal> Erm
<iLLHunter> its too long
<Dashkal> I'd rather you didn't, honestly.
<Dashkal> I'm not at my most fair here.
<iLLHunter> a pastebin for Emoniph is probably good
<TheMadman> Pastebin it is.
<iLLHunter> fair enough Dashkal
<iLLHunter> Dashkal would you mind if just emoniph saw the log?
<iLLHunter> he is privy to all channel logs anyway but I'm asking regardless
<Dashkal> No worries there.