[19:23:20] BlindBeholder: hi, i was informed that you are the person i need to speak to about the cloning dilema
[19:23:36] +duel: sure, ask away
[19:25:01] BlindBeholder: okay, so pokemon showdown (ps) has a "zero tolerence policy" for the use of cheats and cheating devices
[19:25:20] BlindBeholder: but has allowed the duplication of pokemon for a number of years and continues to do so
[19:25:49] BlindBeholder: these duplications are performed with 3rd party software or hardware and are not an abuse of an in game mechanic (exploit)
[19:26:32] BlindBeholder: in turn, this destroys the value of shiny pokemon as a trade just as much as, if not more than genning (artificially inserting a new pokemon into the game using 3rd party software"
[19:27:15] BlindBeholder: as such in game activities such as shiny hunting are almost pointless as a majority of legitimately grinded shiny pokemon (especially pre gen 6) have imperfect stats
[19:27:17] +duel: you think we're violating PS's global rules then?
[19:27:46] BlindBeholder: you are kind of violating your own rulkes, but disallowing the discussion of the method
[19:27:51] BlindBeholder: as has been done for years
[19:28:03] +duel: our rules quite clearly allow cloning
[19:28:22] BlindBeholder: so you allow the use and discussion of powersave, jailbreaking etc?
[19:28:33] +duel: not in the room, no
[19:28:34] BlindBeholder: homebrew
[19:28:47] BlindBeholder: okay, how are these pokemon being duplicated?
[19:29:25] +duel: 3rd party tools, the discussion of which aren't allowed in the room
[19:29:53] BlindBeholder: okay, and you don;t see the issue of allowing use of something that is banned from discussion?
[19:30:26] BlindBeholder: so its bad enough that it can;t be talked about, but we can shyly copy rare pokemon and cripple the shiny trade value with it?
[19:30:43] BlindBeholder: you don;t see that as contradictory in any way?
[19:31:31] +duel: it's not about trade value, it's the fact that on this website we are not allowed to discuss the use of 3rd party tools
[19:32:30] BlindBeholder: okay, so you ban discussion of, but allow use of said software
[19:32:44] +duel: if used in accordance with our rules, yes
[19:32:45] BlindBeholder: and you think that makes sense?
[19:33:06] +duel: we have a dedicated discord server for this purpose
[19:33:40] BlindBeholder: right, this seems to be a common issue. instead of blindly following rules, try thinking critically here. i know that's what the rules say, i'm saying, maybe that does't makes sense or comes accross as hypocritical
[19:34:12] BlindBeholder: so if we make 99 duplicates of a 6iv shiny skarmory caught by user 77624
[19:34:39] BlindBeholder: and user 34586 catches a skarmory, with average stats, who's gonna trade for that skarm?
[19:34:50] BlindBeholder: no one, because everyone already has the 6iv one
[19:35:17] BlindBeholder: and user 34586 has wasted hours of his life trying to get into the shiny trade economy
[19:36:16] +duel: our goal here is to facilitate safe trading, ie no hacks. we define what our community views as a hack, and cloning a legitimate pokemon is within our rules. we don't care about the "economy", we allow users to do what they want with their pokemon
[19:37:04] BlindBeholder: so 99 flawless shiny skarmory has less impact than just injecting 99 skarmory into the game "because the community thinks it's different"
[19:37:51] +duel: yes, if you don't like that you're free to trade in another community
[19:38:15] BlindBeholder: 'we don't care about the "economy"' highly apparent. and you know full well other communities are either full of hacks, scammers or just dead.
[19:39:21] BlindBeholder: i'm putting forward an idea to have a completely legit, no 3rd party software/hardware system, as the only one on the internet, and all i'm getting back are the same copy-pasted "it's in the rules" or "if you don't like it, go elsewere" type answers
[19:40:29] +duel: if you can tell the difference between a correctly cloned pokemon and the original, AND can enforce such a no cloning rule, please tell me how
[19:43:48] BlindBeholder: can you currently tell the difference between a well genned pokemon and a real one? of course not.
[19:43:57] BlindBeholder: doesn;t mean you openly allow genning
[19:44:41] +duel: you can with a well trained eye, and if it's a very valuable mon we have proofing rules so one can't just gen it in
[19:44:49] BlindBeholder: again, if 3rd party software, homebrewed consoles or powersave devices are needed, it's not legit.
[19:45:29] +duel: that's your opinion, it's a valid opinion, and it's an opinion held by other communities
[19:45:30] BlindBeholder: unfortunatyely, a well genned pokemon, will just look like a clone. they will gen it to have the correct secret i.d
[19:46:35] BlindBeholder: so your argument is, well we can;t proove that 2 pokemon have identical id's and it seems less bad than other hacking, so we're gonna ban it
[19:46:40] BlindBeholder: *not gonna ban it
[19:48:16] BlindBeholder: okay, going forward to my my next point. imagine. i'm at the VGC national top cut. myself, joe bloggs and timmy are all using a japanese exclusive event pokemon (special move otherwise unobtainable on this pokemon)
[19:48:23] +duel: i'm saying a clone of a legitimate pokemon is a legitimate pokemon
[19:48:30] +duel: because they're the same
[19:48:42] +duel: no difference whatsoever
[19:48:50] BlindBeholder: but oh no, in top cut, we get a very strict hack check. and oh no, oh no, all of our special pokemon have identical information.
[19:49:20] BlindBeholder: yes, it's legitimate for someone to have unlimited shinies
[19:49:35] BlindBeholder: so long as they can keep duplicating the first one, got ya
[19:49:53] BlindBeholder: sending this video to callum, see what he can do with it
[19:50:09] BlindBeholder: see what the pokemon community outside of ps users think to this
[19:50:43] +duel: we're operating within our rules, as is our right
[19:50:45] BlindBeholder: as a global voice, you seem to be completely unwilling to hear any side of this other than what is written
[19:51:08] BlindBeholder: hacking has a fine line, that smogon bcked showdown is willing to cross, so long as it follows cirtain criteria
[19:51:35] +duel: i've said your opinion is valid, it's just not what this community follows
[19:51:47] BlindBeholder: you remember that showdown is a representitive of smogon, right?
[19:51:55] +duel: because we view clones of legitimate pokemon as legitimate
[19:52:10] +duel: and smogon doesn't allow cloning?
[19:52:22] +duel: i think you might be mistaken
[19:52:50] BlindBeholder: yes the first one is legitiimate, but without hax it would be impossible for 99 people to have the same pokemon. so everything you have done to that pokemon is illegitimate to the point that i can't go to the wifi chat and ask about it
[19:53:20] BlindBeholder: it's so okay, that the method is banned from discussion
[19:54:00] BlindBeholder: smogon may allow cloning, i know for sure pthe pokemon company don't
[19:54:18] BlindBeholder: and they administer VGC
[19:54:24] BlindBeholder: and they hack check VGC
[19:54:55] +duel: and their hack checks won't detect cloning
[19:55:24] +duel: because, again, it's the same as a legitimate pokemon
[19:55:24] BlindBeholder: so your website is not only devaluating rare pokemon for younger/less experienced players, making it a dificult economy to join, but is also having it's clones go out to vgc players who then may fail a hack check when them and another players mons have identical information
[19:55:35] BlindBeholder: yes, I have seen this happen
[19:55:43] BlindBeholder: in manchester, 2016
[19:56:00] BlindBeholder: 2 players had to leave because thy had an identicle pokemon
[19:56:59] BlindBeholder: afk - 3-5 mins