let's do this

Following is a chat with Rayman1103 authorizing the possibility of obtaining permission from Team Chivalry's
Wraiyth to re-port Helm's Deep from Age of Chivalry to L4D2. Within steep guidelines -- just read the chat.

It's unlikely yet still possible that Wraiyth wants to under-go a DMCA battle with SeriouS_Samurai who has
otherwise given publicity to a map that'd otherwise received much less attention -- but it seems completely
feasible, that he'd green-light the flattering prospect of a re-port with FULL COMPREHENSIVE credit given.

Following that is a Daroot Leafstorm chat that analyzes the TOS, and why SeriouS_Samurai isn't violating it.

An over-flowing pool of historical context & information can be found here, in Fox's comments:

	https://steamcommunity.com/id/shibey/allcomments

Caution there is some profanity here as it's 100% un-edited, and my positive, empathetic perspectives since my:

	A fair psychoanalysis of L4D2 Helm's Deep Reborn, credit to user "Tsuey".
	https://18c862e5-60f6-40b9-96ab-4bccc0db834a.htmlpasta.com

Have completely reversed. Let's not fuck around anymore, people; transparency starts here.

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[2:58 PM]
Tsuey:
	have you demanded that SeriouS_Samurai re-introduce credit to Team Chivalry for the base Helm's Deep map?
	Team Chivalry deserves credit for their work, and you have the power to enforce it

[4:07 PM]
Tsuey:
	You know, I sympathize with you, completely. I'm not angry at you, I'm angered with you. 2 days offline -- there's certainly some days I'm scared to change from Invisible to Online, I can only imagine what it's like for someone who has done ReactiveDrop, gamemaps, VSLib, Admin System, Mutations Mod, on top of being a moderator. What I'm asking of you idealistically is to provide SeriouS_Samurai the ultimatum of "if you don't acknowledge Team Chivalry as the original creators of the base map, I will remove it from the Workshop". But you're no liar, and SeriouS_Samurai would call this as a bluff, so you probably are too wise to play that card because its all-out removal from the Workshop would arguably cause more harm than good because people have been playing it for 6+ years. Literally the only hope, is for JAiZ to get in contact with the original creator of the map to DMCA Helm's Deep reborn, idealistically under the agreement that it can stay up if credit is re-introduced -- of which if it's between legally-enforced removal from the Workshop or providing attribution, he'd finally be compelled to provide the attribution.
	So, I relate, and apologize profusely, but still -- we need transparency
	where is your transparency?
	please tell me I'm wrong, that the only hope isn't a DMCA from the original main mapper?

[4:47 PM]
Rayman1103:
	Hi. Sorry for the lack of replies, I've been a bit busy this weekend.I spoke with SeriouS_Samurai earlier today (when I had a moment), regarding Team Chivalry not being credited. So he then added credit for Team Chivalry to the Changelog v.9 thread for Helm's Deep. https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/121068229/828935361199667799/
	Original wireframe design by Team chivalry.

[4:48 PM]
Tsuey:
	hey
	ok
	i'm really sorry for all the messages
	this has a lot of people, really bothered
	and at least there is credit, somewhere -- not in a perfectly idealistic place
	but at least it's somewhere

[4:49 PM]
Rayman1103:
	It's alright, I understand. Yeah, I suggested he add a Credits topic that would be easier to find and view.

[4:49 PM]
Tsuey:
	and he refused i suspect?

[4:49 PM]
Rayman1103:
	But he didn't make one yet I don't think.

[4:49 PM]
Tsuey:
	Last edited by SeriouS_Samurai; 8 hours ago
	thank you for getting that done
	very, very important to me, but please do try to push the Credits topic
	but, regardless, this is good for me
	thank you so much for getting that done, relief tbh

[4:53 PM]
Rayman1103:
	Yeah sure thing.

[4:53 PM]
Tsuey:
	[4:53 PM]
	Daroot Leafstorm:
		wireframe design? LMAO
	there's no doubt samurai is a bullshitter and still a liar, though
	and he didn't even have the proper decency to capitalize "Team Chivalry"

[5:06 PM]
Tsuey:
	i have a legitimate question that is actively being pursued, and if it's not, i will pursue it myself, and Daroot Leafstorm has offered up his scripting talents to even get it done :: Wraiyth has been authorized to represent Team Chivalry with regard to the Helm's Deep map... if permission to port Age of Chivalry's base map to L4D2 was acquired from Wraiyth, people (myself among them) would like to re-port directly from Age of Chivalry, to L4D2, with full authorization, to make a better Helm's Deep Reborn -- effectively doing nothing different, than he did, only in his case he only had permission to port to L4D1 and that was after the fact of first doing it without permission, only receiving it later because Team Chivalry saw people enjoying it
	as it would be with permission, and not involve samurai's "Workshop Contribution" (literally defined as VPK file) at all
	this would not be against any TOS, whatsoever, right?
	he will DMCA it, but it'd only expose him as effectively DMCA'ing his own actions a ~decade ago
	this is a valid approach, correct?

[5:09 PM]
Rayman1103:
	I believe that would be fine. I can't see anything wrong with that, as you would have full permission from Team Chivalry, and you would not be decompiling SeriouS_Samurai's .bsp map file.

[5:09 PM]
Tsuey:
	good to hear

[5:12 PM]
Rayman1103:
	And to answer your previous question regarding people uploading content created by others. afaik, the only way they can be removed is if the author of the content files a DMCA.I had banned one Workshop item because the actual author reported it and requested it removed. However Valve reversed my ban and told me the author needed to file a DMCA, so Valve's lawyers could ban and remove it.

[5:12 PM]
Tsuey:
	and to add, he will definitely DMCA it, so surely vast extents of proof with regard to porting it anew WITH permission would need to be amounted, to absolutely prove it's a 100% independent work?

[5:13 PM]
Rayman1103:
	Probably yeah, to be safe best to have records of permission. You may need to do a counter-DMCA.

[5:14 PM]
Tsuey:
	if JAiZ pursues this the entire thing would be recorded -- if I pursue it, I'd have to do the same

[5:15 PM]
Rayman1103:
	Yes, to be safe.

[5:15 PM]
Tsuey:
	thanks a ton for clarifying all of this, really, really, thankanakhtnakhnkahnktan thank you

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[3:52 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	"This includes, without limitation, any kind of intellectual property rights or other proprietary or personal rights affected by or included in the User Generated Content. In particular, with respect to Workshop Contributions, you represent and warrant that the Workshop Contribution was originally created by you (or, with respect to a Workshop Contribution to which others contributed besides you, by you and the other contributors, and in such case that you have the right to submit such Workshop Contribution on behalf of those other contributors)."

[3:54 PM]
Tsuey:
	if L4D1 had a Workshop and Samurai's original port for L4D1 was to the L4D1 Workshop
	it'd be a very gray situation

[3:54 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	he may be breaking Steam TOS

[3:54 PM]
Tsuey:
	but that's not the case at all, he is breaking TOS

[3:55 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	He was given permission for gamemaps, but I don't think he was for the workshop, so he definitely is breaking TOS

[3:55 PM]
Tsuey:
	yes with regard to Workshop, completely beyond-agree
	any threat from Rayman to remove it if credit is not given would be a bluff, so it's understandable if he cannot play that card, because its all-out removal from the Workshop would arguably cause more harm than good -- because people have been playing it for 6+ years
	i can only assume -- just like recommending to Serious that including UI changes / etc. is a bad idea -- Serious simply does not listen
	and would call out any bluff, therefore, Serious is just a piece of rotting shit if you ask me
	really hope JAiZ can get in contact with the original guy and it's DMCA'd, possibly on agreement that it can stay up if credit is re-introduced -- which, if it's between legally-enforced removal from the Workshop or providing proper attribution
	he'd choose attribution

[4:06 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	but if it's breaking TOS, then it should not stay, at least for the time being
	although I'm not certain if it's breaking TOS, because it's pretty vague

[4:15 PM]
Tsuey:
	my understanding from reading everything Fox has ever said: "Workshop Contribution" = explicitly defined as a VPK file, "Workshop Contribution was originally created by you" = the vague part because "originally" is ambiguous i.e. does it mean the original VPK or the source material from which the contents within the VPK were derived, and the "(or, with respect to a Workshop Contribution to which others contributed besides you" is explicitly referring to being disallowed from copy/pasting another's Workshop-uploaded VPK and claiming it as your own (the only non-vague, and demonstrably enforced thing)
	you have to wonder though from the perspective of the person who wrote that TOS, who was knowledgeably aware of the fact there'd be people who reverse-engineer / decompile other games (i.e. Sonic games to port those models to L4D2) -- while those Workshop contributions may not explicitly credit "Sega" as the original creator, there's viewer bias that's not really accounted for where that simply goes without saying
	which would stand to reason that credit to the creator of the source material is not required, but will be contested if there is a DMCA
	rule-wise, it's not required
	DECENCY-wise, it's required
	there should be an underlying expectation of integrity and common sense, within any TOS, though
	it's a video game and besides petty donations he's not getting paid for it, no livelihoods or pensions are at stake
	there's no need to enforce within ambiguities of something so worldly infantile

[4:24 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	I believe there was possibly a map locked behind donations that was also made by the Chivalry team
	while "originally" is ambigious, I'm certain it would be interpreted as the content, not the VPK itself

[4:27 PM]
Tsuey:
	Sonic the Hedgehog Survivor (Nick) [REMAKE]
	Sonic the Hedgehog! (Modern Sonic) Surprise! I've recreated Sonic with the appropriate height, eye tracking and facial animations! Credit goes to Apoc Hedgie for ripping the model and putting it to The Models Resource. Check out the new Steam Group! You ca
	https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=764225592
	Sonic Team and Sega aren't credited at all
	people assume it's their work, but for all a person living under a rock would think, this is 100% original work

[4:29 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	yeah, it really depends on how the TOS is interpreted

[4:29 PM]
Tsuey:
	and unfortunately for us it's interpreted in such a way that Helm's Deep Reborn will forever be primarily known as a SeriouS_Samurai creation

[4:40 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	Could definitely create a new version of Helms Deep if you got permission from the Chivalry team though

[4:40 PM]
Tsuey:
	yea i've told xana the same and he is looking into i think, jaiz also seemed on board, if no one does it i'll fucking do it myself tho
	but i really, my blood boils over this no Team Chivalry credit thing

[4:41 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	I'd be happy to create scripts for it

[4:41 PM]
Tsuey:
	i'd really prefer to not have to resort to that

[4:41 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	I think the worst thing is he's plastered donation links everywhere

[4:43 PM]
Tsuey:
	a lot of things bother me but the no credit thing short circuits my brain

[4:44 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	Donation link on his profile, top of the addon, in the MOTD
	and I'm sure he's deleting comments saying that he stole the geometry

[4:45 PM]
Tsuey:
	lol he modified his injected MOTD with a donation link?

[4:46 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	not sure if it's still in the addon, but the MOTD showed a thread about donating

[4:46 PM]
Tsuey:
	if i was to have another chat with samurai, i'm sure you've seen my htmlpasta w/ the whole chat -- he'd block me from day 1
	can't even bullshit a nice thing to say about him anymore

[4:47 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	Yeah, I've always been skeptical and annoyed by the sensationalist threads
	but it's pretty damning evidence

[4:51 PM]
Tsuey:
	[4:47 PM]Rayman1103:	Hi. Sorry for the lack of replies, I've been a bit busy this weekend.I spoke with SeriouS_Samurai earlier today (when I had a moment), regarding Team Chivalry not being credited. So he then added credit for Team Chivalry to the Changelog v.9 thread for Helm's Deep. https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/121068229/828935361199667799/	Original wireframe design by Team chivalry.[4:48 PM]Tsuey:	hey	ok	i'm really sorry for all the messages	this has a lot of people, really bothered	and at least there is credit, somewhere -- not in a perfectly idealistic place	but at least it's somewhere[4:49 PM]Rayman1103:	It's alright, I understand. Yeah, I suggested he add a Credits topic that would be easier to find and view.[4:49 PM]Tsuey:	and he refused i suspect?[4:49 PM]Rayman1103:	But he didn't make one yet I don't think.[4:49 PM]Tsuey:	Last edited by SeriouS_Samurai; 8 hours ago	thank you for getting that done	very, very important to me, but please do try to push the Credits topic	but, regardless, this is good for me
	just now
	"this just in"
	samurai is a piece of shit and a bullshitter only provided footnote credit like that
	but previously it waas just fucking nothing

[4:53 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	wireframe design? LMAO

[4:54 PM]
Tsuey:
	my thoughts exactly
	[4:53 PM]Rayman1103:	Yeah sure thing.[4:53 PM]Tsuey:	[4:53 PM]	Daroot Leafstorm:		wireframe design? LMAO	there's no doubt samurai is a bullshitter and still a liar, though	and he didn't even have the proper decency to capitalize "Team Chivalry"
	but at least it's there, right?
	better than fucking nothing

[5:00 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	hidden away in a discussion thread lmao

[5:00 PM]
Tsuey:
	yea it sucks
	i'll personally push rayman to push samurai to create the "Credits" topic
	but if "piece of shit" was in the dictionary... hate samurai

[5:02 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	Should definitely create a better version of Helms Deep IMO
	Make it look better, make it more interesting, etc

[5:10 PM]
Tsuey:
	[5:06 PM]
	Tsuey:
		i have a legitimate question that is actively being pursued, and if it's not, i will pursue it myself, and Daroot Leafstorm has offered up his scripting talents to even get it done :: Wraiyth has been authorized to represent Team Chivalry with regard to the Helm's Deep map... if permission to port Age of Chivalry's base map to L4D2 was acquired from Wraiyth, people (myself among them) would like to re-port directly from Age of Chivalry, to L4D2, with full authorization, to make a better Helm's Deep Reborn -- effectively doing nothing different, than he did, only in his case he only had permission to port to L4D1 and that was after the fact of first doing it without permission, only receiving it later because Team Chivalry saw people enjoying it
		as it would be with permission, and not involve samurai's "Workshop Contribution" (literally defined as VPK file) at all
		this would not be against any TOS, whatsoever, right?
		he will DMCA it, but it'd only expose him as effectively DMCA'ing his own actions a ~decade ago
		this is a valid approach, correct?

	[5:09 PM]
	Rayman1103:
		I believe that would be fine. I can't see anything wrong with that, as you would have full permission from Team Chivalry, and you would not be decompiling SeriouS_Samurai's .bsp map file.

	[5:09 PM]
	Tsuey:
		good to hear
	roped you in, it's a go if jaiz/xana don't

[5:13 PM]
Daroot Leafstorm:
	Sounds good, if you ever have questions about the possibility of scripts, or you want a script done just message me with the details
	The changelog is on the second page of the discussions? lmao only someone specifically looking for it would find it