<q> What is NLP?
<q> 1. NLP is the use of language to program the brain.
<q> 2. NLP looks at the mind as a collection of parts(systems). These parts effect one another through feedback.
<q> 3. NLP uses models to interact with each main part of the mind.
<q> 4. Models are created by reverse-engineering the processes of therapists and communicators.
<diapered11111> Hi all
<q> to get the discussion started here is some basic explanation of NLP
<q> and hi diapered11111
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<SeducingSpirit> please join us sungazer, you know if your eyes were as deep as they are then you would be deep in trance
<diapered11111> How are you <q>
<q> good, you diapered11111 ?
<q> for those of you that are wondering how NLP is related to hypnosis here is some information and points
<q> What does NLP have to do with hypnosis?
<q> 1. NLP has a model that uses a powerful form of Ericksonain hypnosis
<q> 2. NLP provides a framework that is robust enough to work well with a wide variety of subjects.
<q> 3. Four of the NLP models are effective both in and out of trance.
<q> 4. Rapport and framing makes the pre-talk easier, and can make trances more effective.
<subm^> wb sun gazer   Discussion just started on NLP
<sungazer> Hiya. Awesome topic ;D
<q> hi hi
<diapered11111> I'm good
<q> glad to hear(or read that is)
<diapered11111> :D
<Arsage> Ah, good. I got back in time.
<q> anyway NLP is used in a wide variety of professions, from therapy to marketing
<q> ah welcome back Arsage
<subm^> q- Have a couple of questions please
<q> sure
<q> ask away :)
<Arsage> Thank you, q. Just grabbed some food in preparation for this.
<subm^> You mentioned Rappot and framing- would you explain what each is please
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<q> ah great question subm^
<subm^> hi tina  NLP discussion now
<q> rapport is a model in NLP used to gain the trust of the subject faster than we would normally
<q> Rapport usually uses slight non-obvious body language mirroring and active listening to engage and connect with the subject
<q> it helps us validate the subject as a person
<q> and show that we care
<q> Framing is centered around choosing how we say things
<q> people tend to see the world through lenses or filters that change the way they perceive the world around them
<q> if we change the way we say something, or how we depict it, people tend to feel differently: is the glass half full or half empty
<subm^> An example of rapport and one of framing?
<q> an example of rapport would be if I were to listen to a subject talk, or in this case type, and copy their verbal style. Essentially I would validate them as a person and possibly use their name, subm^ .
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<q> an example of framing would be if I were feeling kind of tired on a rainy day
<q> I would not say "I am tired"
<q> I would say "I felt tired earlier today"
<q> in that frame it implies to myself and others that I will have more energy later today and that I am no longer tired
<subm^> Make them feel comfortable with similar language and friendliness?
<q> yep
<q> I would not use big technical words unless talking to a technical computer IT person
<q> if the person likes politics I might discuss some relatively neutral ideas in politics, I would be vague enough to avoid offending
<q> but I would have their interest
<subm^> in framing you change the communication via words carefully saying what you want the person to focuson?
<q> an example of Framing can take place in court: lets say I am in an autoaccident and I don't want the Jury to think I was going really fast. I am not going to ask if the cars smashed together, I would ask the person how fast the cars were moving when they contacted one another.
<q> indeed subm^, framing is changing what angle we want someone to look at something
<subm^> neat   rapport seems to gain a person's trust and make the person comfortable
<q> sometimes we can frame something as being less significant, like a phobia, to help someone to put that phobia into proper prospective
<q> yep
<q> its ultra important for hypnosis
<q> after all if a subject does not trust the hypnotist and is not comfortable, how well is that hypnosis session going to go?
<q> probably not well
<subm^> framing gets the person to look at and focus on what you want the person to note
<q> ^^
<q> Reality is huge, and our own personal views of reality almost always only look at one part of something from one angle
<q> thats fine when we look at things positively
<q> but sometimes we want a subject to look at the positive aspects of their life, or look at the other aspects of life when talking about a fear
<q> Framing is even used on the news surprisingly
<q> we tend to focus on a human interest angle of a story, rather than for example the financial aspect
<q> but a financial news branch will tend to only focus mostly on the financial meaning
<subm^> So,you are choosing words to make the person comfortable with  you  and words to get the person's attention on what you want it on, correct/
<subm^> ?
<q> indeed
<q> very correct
<subm^> neat
<q> :-)
<q> anyway that is rapport and framing in a nutshell
<subm^> It is using words carefully
<q> yes :)
<subm^> Thanks  That helps a lot
<q> yep :)
<q> Anchoring is pretty basic, in hypnosis many use anchoring under another name: triggers
<q> Anchoring is when we tie an emotion or desire to an anchor(trigger) by presenting them together
<subm^> Definition of anchors, please?
<q> an anchor is a touch or feeling we can tie to an emotional state or desire
<subm^> You just gave it   Thanks
<q> yep :)
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<q> If I rang a bell before a subject was told to imagine a plate of delicious food eventually the subject would salivate without being told to imagine the plate of food.
<q> the same applies to working at home
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<SeducingSpirit> please join us ace_freddie{SQ}, let me take your mind and when you slip into trance you may have a nice new one
<q> if I wear work clothes when working at the computer my brain switches to "work mode"
<subm^> Hi ace_freddie{SQ}   we are having the NLP discussion now
<q> because the act of putting on office clothes is an anchor or trigger for that work-state
<q> we see companies use anchoring, they want to anchor feelings of desire to their products
<subm^> You mist really need to think when you use NLP and carefully choose your words
<q> yes, although it gets easier as you practice
<q> NLP can be learned in a week or so, but takes years to master
<subm^> Nice samples, q  Helps in understanding key words
<q> yep :)
<q> part of what makes NLP so effective is that it focuses on the subject as a person
<q> it gets you to listen to and validate a person
<q> it gets you to think about how you speak and what you say
<subm^> sure does
<q> NLP also has a model devoted to Ericksonain hypnosis
<q> the NLP version of hypnosis tends to be more flexible
<subm^> I find this fascinating so far and very applicable to hypnosis and real life communication, q
<q> yeah it is fun and very useful :)
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<q> the NLP version of hypnosis looks at people as being "in trance" when they are focused on something, or are redirect their attention inwards
<subm^> Sorry to keep asking questions, but what is Ericksonian hypnosis?
<q> ah yes
<q> Ericksonain hypnosis is indirect hypnosis, instead of commanding a subject in trance or giving subjects directly
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<q> we try to use vague and permissive language to gradually move a subject towards a better objective
<q> we get a subject to imagine, remember, or to direct their focus towards something
<q> when they are focused, or imagining and recalling they are less likely to resist a suggestion
<Arsage> So, in a sense, Ericksonian hypnosis is what most people think of when they hear covert hypnosis. Is that correct?
<q> we can be more easily led with suggestions and small requests, and more easily persuaded to make positive changes in their life.
<q> indeed it is Arsage
<q> it does not require the same level of pre-talk as Elman hypnosis does
<subm^> Isn't the effectiveness of that partially how a person responds to direct communication versus more vague ?
<q> indeed
<q> of course ericksonain hypnosis does make use of a powerful technique called the compliance set
<subm^> I guess with Ericksonian it is a gradual smaller step at a time...
<q> indeed
<q> with a compliance set we start with a small request or commitment
<q> and because people like to be consistent they are more likely to comply with a second larger request
<q> in therapy this means we can build towards meaningful change with a subject
<q> one thing particularly interesting about compliance sets is that they are effective outside of trance also, but inside of trance they are very effective
<subm^> Piece by piece that winds up a larger piece that might be too much to take all at once?
<q> indeed
<q> we could be told to sit in a particular seat or
<q> maybe agree to talk about something
<q> but not many of us would commit to making a lifestyle change on the first question or request
<ace_freddie{SQ}> I can see that - it's like granting something for the sake of argument, is it not, q?
<q> (I know I probably wouldn't)
<ace_freddie{SQ}> and then building on it
<q> yep
<q> so milton model on the surface involves getting the subject's attention or focus
<q> and then using suggestions and compliance sets to get towards an objective
<q> however later in Ericksonain trances we may want to add an embedded suggestion
<subm^> little building blocks to build the house?
<q> indeed
<q> little blocks that can quickly build up towards a great and (hopefully) positive change for the subject
<subm^> Is there much variability as to how small or large the blocks should be....from person to person?
<q> if a person is less likely to trust we should start smaller
<q> if a person is afraid of change, smaller is better
<q> quitting cold turkey works for some people, I could quit things cold turkey every morning(but I would restart using them by lunch)
<q> with some alcoholism and smoking you can slowly over time reduce the amount you consume each week
<q> until you are off of them
<q> easier than you could in one day
* q does his dieting that way
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome shiny_subm, you may feel great pleasure when you donate your mind
<subm^> So if you build up good "rapport" there would be better trust ,one could be more effective in reaching the goal- smoother and perhaps quicker?
<q> indeed
<q> the better the rapport the larger your building blocks can be
<q> the worse the rapport the harder our work is
<subm^> makes sense
<q> indeed
<subm^> hi shiny- NLP discussion going on
<q> in our ericksonian hypnosis we might embed a message or suggestion in a story
<q> like a metaphor so to speak
<q> so in addition to the compliance sets
<q> which are very effective with a majority of people
<shiny_subm> Hi subm^
<q> we can use metaphors for a little more effectiveness
<q> hi shiny_subm welcome
<shiny_subm> Hi q
<q> after we have gotten the subject's focus, compliance, and used some embedded commands, we often repeat some of the suggestions to make sure that the subject remembers them
<q> suggestions (both in and out of trance) are more effective with repetition
<subm^> metaphors so the person gets the feel of  what  you are trying to say through personal understandings and feelings
<subm^> ?
<q> indeed
<q> and because a story uses the imagination and emotion it bypasses most critical thinking
<subm^> Fascinating, q
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome Karen, try not to think about relaxing into trance and just feeling pleasure or else it will happen
<q> it is very fun to use :)
<q> and I think it helps subjects well also
<subm^> Hi Karen- NLP discussion now
<q> anyway even with a great rapport, good frame, anchoring, and milton model trance, sometimes our subject may retain limiting beliefs
<Karen> Hello :)
<flora> Hello is jello made in hell
<q> or beliefs that are just plain wrong in some cases, unhealthy beliefs can include paranoia for example
<q> hello Karen :)
<subm^> I can see that one needs to understand   the concepts, but it must take a lot of experience to excel with all of this
<q> subm^, generally its best to start out with rapport and practice that first
<q> then framing and anchoring
<q> steady practice makes perfect :)
<subm^> rapport must help in all ways
<q> rapport can be the difference between a great relationship and no relationship
<subm^> So true
<q> or in the career example failing a job interview
<q> if we dont have some level of rapport with the interviewer
<q> he is less likely to understand or trust us
<q> and therefore probably less likely to want to hire us
<q> people are warmer towards things they are familiar with
<q> (and this includes people also :)
<q> anyway to remove a limiting belief we could try to use facts and evidence
<subm^> Seems like this has a  dual usage- helping in hypnosis, but most importantly- helpful in real life interaction
<q> ^^ indeed
<q> its also useful in parenting
<subm^> for sure
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<SeducingSpirit> welcome Shirla, please decide before leaving whether you are your past or you will be your future
<q> sometimes we want a child to do something, we probably wont toss a list of tasks at them
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<subm^> Hi Shirla- welcome--having a NLP discussion
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<q> we are far more likely to be successful giving our child a choice of when they want to do something or in which order
<q> than just shoving a list at them
<q> similarly children respond better to metaphors than they do direct "commands"
<q> that is why Asop's fables were effective for teaching morals and life messages
<q> also if you are a religious person you might notice that the Bible happened to use stories to communicate memorable messages
<subm^> they could relate throughout their own experiences and understandings.
<q> like it or dislike Bible stories, one has to admit they are memorable
<q> its also why we tend to like video games that have a "story mode"
<q> indeed
<q> people are more likely to embrace a message they can relate to
<subm^> Question please
<q> sure
<Shirla> What’s NLP?
<subm^> Would you tell all of us what NLP stands for and explain it briefly
<q> sure thing
<subm^> We have the same question, Shirla
<q> NeuroLinguisticProgramming means to program the mind using language or communication. Neuro meaning brain or mind. Linguisitc meaning language or communication, and programming.
<q> NLP generally focuses on looking at the minds as a series of parts. Models are created to handle each part, and those models are generally created by reverse-engineering the thinking and methods of therapists.
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<SeducingSpirit> so good of you to come pikachu, try not to gaze at the screen and slip into trance
<q> in example Milton model was created from the ideas and teachings of Milton Erickson
<q> For those of you who like Formatting:
<q> What is NLP?
<q> 1. NLP is the use of language to program the brain.
<q> 2. NLP looks at the mind as a collection of parts(systems). These parts effect one another through feedback.
<q> 3. NLP uses models to interact with each main part of the mind.
<q> 4. Models are created by reverse-engineering the processes of therapists and communicators.
<subm^> What do you mean by reverse-engineering, please?
<q> ah great question
<q> by reverse-engineering I mean to copy their methods and stream line them
<q> in example we might watch a master painter and ask him about his thinking processes
<q> we can reverse engineer that or make a basic version of his skill that can be taught to others
<q> It would be very difficult to teach everyone the entire field of Behavioral Psychology, but we can give them the basic idea of how it works and how to use it practically
<subm^> I would think therapists and communicators would use all you have discussed as core to their therapy/communication, q
<q> Many use parts of it, some use nearly all of it
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<Cortana> Teaser for dareon - My life is burning bright! A guy who likes to just relax and have fun. That and taking names and kicking ass. That too - to view the full profile type: !view dareon
<SeducingSpirit> welcome dareon, you may feel great pleasure when you donate your mind
<q> in example Behavioral psychologists will use anchoring and elements of rapport
<q> a CBT therapist may borrow ideas of hypnosis and add them to their therapy session
<q> or a Freudian might decide to use the ideas of Framing from NLP to word things better
<q> Great communicators and persuaders likely use a little bit of every model subm^
<q> especially great therapists and skilled CBT therapists
<subm^> What is  a CBT therapist?
<q> Cognitive Behavioral therapist
<q> they share a lot of ideas with NLP but don't usually use hypnosis in their therapy
<pikachu> That was the kind of therapy I did growing up. :)
<q> they look at thinking, behavior, and feelings as being connected
<q> and because of that the coping mechanisms a CBT therapist uses is very effective
<q> glad to hear CBT worked for you pikachu :)
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* pikachu nodnods. :)
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<SeducingSpirit> greetings Katy, please feel free to slip into mindless oblivion at any time
<q> CBT is kind of like the more direct brother of NLP
<subm^> Seems most reasonable, q     thinking, behavior, feeling
<q> ^
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<SeducingSpirit> please join us astorix, you may be seduced deeply now or later as you prefer
<astorix> hello all
<q> NLP therapists might also extend that to looking at one's environment
<q> hi hi
<astorix> hi q
<subm^> hi Katy, astorix- NLP discussion
<q> welcome
<astorix> hello subm^:))
<subm^> hi
<q> anyway almost all the models discussed
<q> rapport
<q> framing
<q> anchoring
<q> milton model
<Saundra> hi hi
* Saundra hugs q
<astorix> hello Saundra:) hugs
<q> are all very effective for helping a subject learn better coping skills and making positive change in their lives
<q> hi Saundra
* q hugs Saundra back
<q> there is one model however that we have not quite covered just yet
<q> that model is the Meta Model
<subm^> hi Saundra
<q> The meta model, unlike most the other models, has removing limiting beliefs as its purpose
<q> the meta model uses questions, much like the Socratic method to ask a subject to explain their reasoning and to talk about their belief at length
<Saundra> how does it identify which are limiting?
<q> the Meta Model is used to do the removing, not so much the determining of what is a limiting belief
<Saundra> nods
<q> generally it is accepted that a belief that causes one to hurt themselves or be incapable of functioning in work or relationships is a limiting belief
<Saundra> ok so that is a preliminary judgement
<q> I would hope so, at least that is the standard I would use
<q> Therapists in the past have tried using facts and logic to dislodge a false belief
<q> but that does not work very well
<q> we tend to wrap our identity and life decisions up with our beliefs
<q> so when people attack our beliefs, no matter how flawed, it tends to make us fight stronger for them
<q> so the Meta Model sidesteps this backfire effect by instead repeatedly asking the subject to explain how their reasoning is right, where the belief came form, and how their belief works specifically
<subm^> Then it is simply a belief that causes harm to self or limits  one's ability to cope/efficiently  and effectively with others?
<sungazer> So it imposes rationality on their thoughts?
<q> basically it makes them question their own thoughts themselves
<Saundra> seems like it forces questioning
<Saundra> nods
<q> yeah
<q> I prefer to use the Meta Model with softeners
<q> so instead of saying "how did you come to this conclusion" all matter of factly
<q> I might say "I am just curious how you came to that conclusion?"
<pikachu> Ah. :)
<Saundra> do you need to offer a replacement?
<q> you would probably after it has been dislodged
<Saundra> seems that removing some beliefs can be a problem
<q> but you want that replacement to be congruent with their personality
<Saundra> nods
<q> something that will work for them
<q> some people cannot handle the full force of unfiltered reality
<sungazer> What if they have an unimpeachable chain of logic that makes their beliefs valid?
<sungazer> Are you assuming they'll always discover holes?
<q> very few people can hold a belief when they are repeatedly questioned
<q> sometimes one may space this out over time
<subm^> I do not know if that is true q.
<q> it seems to be
<q> people usually, in my experience, question their own beliefs over time as people question them
<q> and ask for specifics
<Saundra> some may just get angry and quit?
<pikachu> And I think, subm^, that in order for this to work, you first have to have people who *want* to be honest with themselves. o.o
<q> yeah, that is a neccessary risk in some cases
<subm^> I think many/most people tend to keep within groups of people who tend to share their  strongest beliefs, q
<q> indeed
<q> its why the meta model is listed last
<q> after we have done as much positive change work as possible
<q> we then focus on the limiting beliefs if neccessary
<q> if we don't soften our questions, or do it over a longer period of time they may very well walk away
<Saundra> seems some beliefs are more tightly held than others
<q> indeed
<q> when this is done in a much more aggressive and (less ethical manner) it is often called gaslighting
<q> it is effective, but I prefer the more ethical and softer approach
<subm^> The intolerance now of people seems to be because they will not even listen to what an opposing belief is and they dig in more to their belief and intolerance, and stick with those who agree with them. No real open discourse/communication.
<q> that is the backfire effect
<q> if we present evidence and facts they feel like we are attacking their ideas
<q> some of these ideas they base their personality on
<subm^> absolutely
<q> but a question has a certain kind of leverage to it
<q> they feel they must explain it to validate it
<q> but if it is difficult they wonder why they cannot explain it well
<q> it makes them look at it critically, and eventually they will see why the belief may not be perfect
<q> best case scenario they toss away the limiting belief and replace it with a better one
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<q> worse case scenario they walk away
<Saundra> so sorry and upset I missed so much - did you explain gaslighting?
<q> usually they will stop expressing their belief as much and modify it
<q> ah Saundra I did not
<q> mostly because gaslighting is a very aggressive technique where one tries to make another person doubt their own sanity
<q> it is aggressive enough that it is not something that would be useful in therapy
<q> or in fun
<q> (not at least in that form)
<Saundra> nods  that sounds like a risk for all belief change
<q> Meta Model is softer, kind, and safer
<q> and much more ethical
<Saundra> nods
<q> gaslighting is very effective ish but can have unintended side effects, as well as being very cruel
<q> anyway
<q> Meta Model appears to be more effective at removing a limiting belief than directly challenging it
<q> however if a person is determined enough not to change a limiting belief then they probably will not
<q> at least not at that time with that therapist
<q> they may not be ready yet
<q> if a person is terrified of trance you may not even use Milton Model, you might just respect their wishes and go with rapport, framing, and anchoring
<Saundra> I assume the therapist makes judgement to change a belief?
<q> only if said change is in line with what you agreed to do
<q> and only is said change will be beneficial
<subm^> gas lighting seems  dangerous, insensitive, cruel, and with potential horrendous emotional outcomes, q
<q> indeed
<q> there is a big difference (I think) between Meta Model and Gaslighting
<Saundra> does it make a difference if subject knows the target - belief and change?
<q> it can
<q> sometimes we don't want the subject to neccessarily know
<q> sometimes, like in a hostage negotiation its better for everyone involved to use the Meta Model without alarming them
<Saundra> because it induces resistance?
<q> it can
<q> especially if trust is hard won
<q> same when talking someone down from suicide
<q> they know you are going to try to dissuade them
<q> else they would not have talked to you
<q> but telling them that you are might make them not want to talk to you
<Saundra> nods
<q> I have talked people out of suicide and found that the Meta Model approach with very very soft questions can be better
<Saundra> seems there is an ego component - I dont want to admit you are right?
<q> I would think so
<q> when we put all these models and ideas together we get a very powerful framework
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<q> and interestingly enough there is even research that supports nearly every model
<Saundra> very impressive - I will read the log carefully
<q> NLP when applied ethically and with care can help make the subject's life better, and the practitioner's life better
<subm^> seems the Meta Model with softeners is so superior  in many ways- more caring, gradual, easier to accept/want change, more effective, and with much less chance of harmful results, q
<q> thats what I would say, from experience, there are people I am sure that prefer the brute force approach
<q> from a helping angle I prefer caring and kind
* pikachu nodnods. :)
<Saundra> any that need reinforcement methods?
<Saundra> meaning repeat sessions?
<q> reinforcement methods? I am not sure of the terminology, but generally subjects are encouraged to have several sessions
<pikachu> (brb)
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<q> one on day one
<q> one on day two
<q> then weekly for a bit
<Saundra> so you use same approach each time?
<subm^> caring, kind, sensitive, compassionate, effective...versus  brute force and tearing smoke's self esteem and self worth down, q
<q> more or less Saundra, although the rapport and anchoring sessions can be shorter
<subm^> someone, not smoke
<q> yeah trying to rip cigarettes out of someone's hand using brute force might work
<q> sort of
<q> but you will probably notice declines in other areas
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<SeducingSpirit> greeting pikachu, I suppose you were wondering whether you were deep in trance before you go deep in trance
<Saundra> wb pikachu
<pikachu> Thanks, Saundra. :)
<q> anyway that roughly concludes the presentation :-)
<Saundra> seems sometimes you need to enforce related beliefs
<Saundra> like you can do this
<q> Saundra, if you like I can send you a pastebin of the backlog
<sungazer> Thanks q, that was informative~
<q> ah
<q> thanks
<pikachu> That was cool, q, thank you. ^_^
<q> you are very right Saundra
<Saundra> I really want to study it q
<Saundra> really excellent
<q> anytime Saundra, I know you are super busy, but I am sure later you will have more time :)
<Saundra> thank you so much
<q> (I myself have been super busy with internships lol)
<gabriel> thank you  q that is very interesting subject
<Saundra> than you for making time  so mcuh
<q> yw :=)
<subm^> q- that was the most informative, interesting, and fascinating  discussion/presentation I recall. Superbly done!    :-)
* Saundra hugs
<q> thanks :)
* q hugs back