Proper Submission to Government

OHhhh, you did worse than just give me something to read; you gave me something to listen to. Oh I'll never forgive you for that one (just kidding of course). There was no way to whip through audio the way that I would an article.

Since I also had some family commitments, this already managed to get rid of me for several hours even though I've only gotten through half of the first sermon. However I figured that I should put my comments on the first audio sermon before I moved on to the other resources, less I would overwhelm you by posting all of my comments at once. Even this one might overwhelm you.

I appreciated your message. You are a good speaker. I added the messages section of your Wordpress site to my audio and video list of edifying resources.

Anyhow, I had understood your earlier comment to be that I didn't have a proper understanding of one particular point, that was "the role of civil government" in regard to the body of Christ. So I started listening to "Proper-Submission-To-Government" as you had suggested.

I've put numbers next to certain paragraphs below to mark the minute reference as to when you were speaking about as it relates to my comment. I hope this is helpful.

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BTW, the document below IS editable by you. So if you like you can just put an asterisk or two (**) by any paragraph you want below so your comments are clearly marked.

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(6min) About the fifth or sixth minute the message began to mention our role to the civil government which was of course that we should submit to God first. If that is the point that you are trying to bring to light then I certainly don't take issue to it.

Though there is "a take" on that which is scriptural and a take on that which is not scriptural.

The scriptural take on that is to give ourselve to God and to Christ as though we were slaves to Him. And as slaves to Him, he tells us to submit to the governing authorities. And 1 Peter 2:13 does not distinguish which governing authorities but rather says to submit to 'all' of them.

And then we have the unscriptual take on this idea which is to give ourselves in submission to God and since we have submitted to God then we now have a license to rebel against all (or some) government authorities. This is a dangerous stance because as all good twists of the scripture given by the enemy, there is 'some' truth in this.

We can see the sort of truth that we should take from this by examing the life of Daniel and other brothers who were told to do something that was in direct opposition to what God had told us. So, ok if the government tells me that I shouldn't pray then by all means I am 'not' going to submit to that. And if the government tells me that it is illegal to own a bible then I think there is enough scriptural justification to condone not submitting to the government on that one either.

But to say that we shouldn't let them look at our financial books if they want? Well there just isn't any scripture to back that type of guarded self protection. The whole idea of protecting our privacy is more American than it is Christian. And I'm not going to try to surf the coat tails of America in order to get to the Kingdom of God. The coat tails of America (nor any government on this planet) will never lead to the Kingdom of God.

Some similarities could be found between the idea of a Christ follower guarding their financial books and an FBI agent showing up at my house and saying they want to search the premises because they are looking for evidence regarding a recent homicide. ... Depending on the way the Spirt leads me in that situation I might either let the FBI right in, or I might simply ask them to get a warrant because I want to make sure that they aren't stepping outside the boundaries of how they should be conducting themselves either.

But again it is the Spirit that I will be submitting to and going as the Spirit leads me. That is a good example I think where on the outside someone might think that it is the government that I am submitting to but God is judging the heart and He knows (as do I) that my outward submission is a result of my inner submission to God and to Christ.

(11min) I continued listening and got to about the 11th minute where you explained the teaching about submission to the governing authorities is wrong. I decided to stop there for a little while, I layed down and meditated on it because I've meditated on that scripture so many times before and wanted to give you the benefit of not blurting out my presuppositions.

So I got back up after thinking about it and concluded that you would be right if what someone was doing was led by the Spirit (in the case of street preaching). Since something such as street preaching could also be motivated by a spirit of conflict. Some, eager for confrontation and with a heart for rebellion, look forward to excusing their evil intent. And just like the first century, some preach the Word of God out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.

(14min) When you get to minute number 14 you say something that could dangerously be used as a blanket statement to cover up all sorts of evil by a man claiming to do God's will "You are not supposed to submit to the wickedness of this world". You said that in reference to the antichrist coming on the scene and controlling government one day (which is beginning to happen now).

It is too easy to use "good" as a coverup for evil. To exagerate my point, one day the antichrist might tell me to relinquish all of my property to the government because property can no longer belong to followers of Christ. Ok, so I submit to Christ by obeying the ruling authorities, I will even submit to death. However if the antichrist tells me to bow down and worship him I will tell him I can not because it is right to submit to God and not to man.

(15:20min) Ah, and if I had waited until minute number 15:20 I would have heard that you agree with me where you say "You can not use your freedom or your righteousness to walk in wickedness" ... very good!

You said "Do not suffer for doing what is evil, God's people should suffer for doing what is right". And I would conceed that not submitting to all forms of government (in obedience to Christ) is evil ... unless what the government is telling you is one of those rare commands that go against God's direction like anything listed in the ten commandments. And historically that doesn't happen very often.

(18min) I thank you for the reminder about John Bunyan. It's been a few years since I've read the background for Bunyan and he's one of those few people that I can say I relate to. I have resisted so so many people that have tried to urge me to go to some sort of seminary and to make a career out of teaching the gospel. I know God called me. And I gave up my job, my life, and my career, several thousand dollars of life saving and stock investments to follow where he would lead. When I was given the faith that I was given, I knew that none of that material gain mattered anymore.

(20min) "They want money. They wanna see your books, they want to see your assets, they wanna see everything.". I agree, that is what they want. And if they want my money and my assets then I will fight my natural desires which say to fight against them. And instead of submitting to my natural desire which says to fight back, I will instead submit to God who says to not resist an evil man. I don't look forward to that day. But I know that is the example that Christ gave us. To give in, to not put up a physical fight, because the Kingdom of God is not of this world.

If it 'was' of this world, then not only should we put up a fight, but we could rely on the very legions of the angels in heaven to lay out the battle field before us. But again, God's Kingdom is not of this world. And anyone that fights to keep the assets that they have in this world will find out that is all the reward that they will get. They will be left with their assets, but they will not inherit the Kingdom.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am just as opposed to incorporation and having a 501c3 as you I think. But I seem to lack one motivation that you seem to have. You seem to be trying to protect the physical assets of the church. I hope I am wrong. I hope that the only assets that you are trying to protect are the spiritual assets of the church. For you know as well as I that we are called not to set up for ourselves treasure (assets) in this world, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves (the government) break in and steal.

(26min) I compltely agree with you, we don't have to obey everything that spiritual leaders tell us to do, and we don't have to obey everything that civil government tells us to do. Both of these of course are subject to what you said a couple minutes previous to this where neither of these two need to be obeyed if they go against the government of heaven. ... However keep in mind that the number of things that go against the government of heaven is a pretty short list roughly constrained within the ten commandments.

(28:48) And here you say "Resistance to tyrrany is obedience to God", and you follow that up with "I know that's it's not an exact scripture but it's a good concept that you find in scripture" ... WHEW YOU ARE RIGHT! it's not in scripture. And this is also what beautifully sums up what I have been seeing in what you have been saying up until this point.

You are a fighter, which is something the world admires. I'm not sure if you could take a slap in the face and turn the other cheek. You haven't said anything yet to address that particular point but you've said several things at this point that suggest to me that you wouldn't be able to do it without some serious personal restraint.

You are a fighter. And it is within our natural man to defend ourselves against all attacks, physical, reputational, and material. But this isn't the law of the Spirit. And if what I am saying about your scrappy nature is accurate, then I hope you will accept the exhortation that comes from the scriptures regarding this. I have a scrappy nature myself but I fight it and pray about it, alot.

I was the guy that took six years of martial arts and eventually built myself up to the point that I took on five guys at once and held all of them off until help came. For fun I would wrestle three of my friends at once and win. And those vigilante fantasies I used to have (which I believe are a sin now) were nothing to be admired by the hosts of heaven. So I can relate to having a scrappy nature.

(29:12) "Whether it is a wife, she has the right to resist tyranny, to obey God" ... However the scriptures teach how a wife can win over her unbelieving husband by obeying them. And though the topic of slavery has 'nothing' to do with women, the whole topic of submission reminds me how slaves were taught to submit to their masters even if their masters were bad.

(29:27) "Submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord sake" ... I hope you agree that we are supposed to submit to their tyranny as well (just as Christ did), unless that tyranny says for us to do something like murder, steal, worship a statue, or any of those ten commandment type things again.