Knife Guy + Grate Guy RNG Manipulation Explanation

Knife Guy + Grate Guy RNG Manipulation Explanation

Released in November 2018

Actual science done by swinch (smart boi)
Information compiled by Claude (dumb boi)

I.   Intro
II.  RNG Manipulation Overview
III. The Manipulated Fight
IV.  Troubleshooting the Manipulation
V.   Implications of the KG + GG Manipulation
VI.  Conclusion

I. INTRO

This document will attempt to give an overview of how the KG + GG manipulation works, without going into too many technical details (ask swinch if you really want to know the nitty-gritty). This explanation can also be applied to any other fights that may be manipulated in the future.

Link to video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmC0e1_zA7M

Link to Bizhawk movie file:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Yb3jKAli7yXA1UIa97eiGY0S3W0jUivi

Link to SNES9X movie file:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12duJtUMG6lFvpGuBOfb43tmzSmHwV_N1

Link to RNG LUA Script files (for SNES9X, download both and place in the same folder):

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1WT3cLjbDknn11YQPnzVkA3gRocQ45rfq
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tOiRjgIoKE_kVOrljwngkqOMNhSP8A--

Link to swinch's Google doc detailing the RNG involved with this fight:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_njtQzaoEXR7oyfVAKlBS_hkLrDLTZTSzg6eyKboyyY/edit#gid=1066815764

II. RNG MANIPULATION OVERVIEW

The most important thing to understand is how the RNG in Super Mario RPG actually works. Unlike in other games, any actions you take early on will NOT influence future randomness. What this means is, if a given action is scheduled to happen in a certain frame window, it will always occur, regardless of anything that comes before it. So, for example - if Grate Guy is set to do a physical attack on Mario on RNG Increment 3413, this specific action will always occur, even if you got wildly different damage rolls on Geno's opening attack. Using this knowledge, it's possible to plan around any frame windows you want to hit ahead of time from a save & reset (which sets the RNG back to 0).

That being said, there are a few quirks as to how the RNG actually works. RNG does not advance in the intro, file select, on the world map, in overworld menus (equips, shopping, etc.) or during screen transitions. This means the frame counter is not 1:1 accurate with the RNG counter. So, if you are not able to get consistent movement while the RNG is paused, it may be difficult to keep track of. Additionally, another strange quirk exists - there are actually TWO sets of battle RNG you can be on! This is dependent on whether you enter a fight on even numbered RNG increment (i.e. RNG Increment 420) or odd numbered RNG increment (i.e. RNG Increment 421). Therefore, if you are unable to consistently make it into a fight on the correct set of RNG, the manipulation will not work (or has to be planned out in advance for both scenarios). Additionally, it is even possible for these RNG sets to switch mid-fight, depending on what actions the enemies take! As an example, Grate Guy casting a spell will put you on a different RNG set than if he did a physical attack. In practice, this will only be relevant if you have to do a backup strat.

In the case of Knife Guy + Grate Guy manipulation, entering on the right RNG increment will (typically) not be an issue. Doing the movement outlined in the video should get you there on RNG Increment 457 (Odd RNG) consistently, as well as allow you enter the fight on the same frame (unnecessary, but a nice bonus). From a practical standpoint, this means you can use audio cues throughout the entire fight to keep track of the frame windows you need to hit. If this isn't your thing, you can also use a series of external timers, started from the moment you press "A" on file select after a save & reset.

In order to make this manipulation realistic for RTA, all frame windows are, at minimum, 6 frames wide. Additionally, the most important window (the initial Rock Candy freebie) is 10 frames, which should make it all but guaranteed to get consistently (assuming you entered the fight on Odd RNG!).

III. THE MANIPULATED FIGHT

Upon completing the curtain game, do the equips (item sort if you want the Rock Candy to be in a consistent spot), and then go back and save in the previous room. Then do the movement shown in the video to enter on RNG Increment 457. The fight will then proceed as follows:

- Geno attacks Knife Guy (damage roll does not matter, as long as it timed correctly for 54+ damage)
- Knife Guy attacks a character (what he does is irrelevant. If he attacks Mario, make sure to at least half-block the attack).
- Koopa uses Terrorize (guaranteed to hit both enemies as long as you use a very simple audio cue to ensure you're in a 74(!) frame
  window). This still has to be fully rotated for maximum damage (46 on KG, 17 on GG). RNG Increment Window: 1248 - 1321 [74 Frames].
- Mario selects the Rock Candy, hovers it over the enemies, and waits a specific time period to throw. The Rock Candy will freebie. RNG
  Increment Window: 2159 - 2168 [10 Frames].
- During the Freebie text, clear the text box within a specific frame window. RNG Increment Window: 2549 - 2554 [6 Frames].
- Grate Guy performs a physical attack on either Koopa or Mario. If it's performed on Mario, make some attempt to half-block the attack
  if he took damage before.
- Geno selects the Rock Candy, hovers it over the enemies, and waits for a specific time period to throw. The Rock Candy will freebie.
  RNG Increment Window: 2848 - 2853 [6 Frames].
- Koopa attacks Grate Guy. This will always deal 164 damage, as he does not have a weapon equipped.
- Mario selects Attack, hovers it over Grate Guy, and waits for a specific time period to attack for 120 or more damage. RNG Increment
  Window: 3911 - 3920 [10 Frames].

By watching the video, you should (hopefully) be able to find audio cues to help you achieve this manipulation consistently. If you dislike audio cues, you can use 4 external timers that are started the moment you press "A" on file select. From my own personal testing, I was able to achieve the best results by using four instances of Wsplit, changing the background to bright red, and setting the following offsets...

Mario's RC Throw: 38.02
Clearing RC Text: 44.47
Geno's RC Throw : 49.30
Mario's Punch   : 1:06.88

Simply do the input as soon as soon as you see the timer turns to red. You will likely have to adjust this to account for your own personal reaction time.

IV. TROUBLESHOOTING THE MANIPULATION

This manipulation is not set in stone, but should be a good litmus test for testing in-battle RNG manip for the time being. In order to troubleshoot whether you're too early or too late on hitting the frame windows, here are the possible outcomes for each frame:

1. Mario's Rock Candy does not freebie and Grate Guy....

[7 FRAMES EARLY] - Uses a physical on Koopa
[6 FRAMES EARLY] - Uses a physical on Koopa
[5 FRAMES EARLY] - Uses a physical on Mario
[4 FRAMES EARLY] - Uses a physical on Geno
[3 FRAMES EARLY] - Uses a physical on Geno
[2 FRAMES EARLY] - Uses Sleep Bubble on Koopa
[1 FRAME EARLY]  - Uses Sleep Bubble on Koopa
[10 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG]
[1 FRAME LATE]   - Uses a physical on Mario
[2 FRAMES LATE]  - Uses a physical on Mario
[3 FRAMES LATE]  - Uses a Sleep Bubble on Koopa
[4 FRAMES LATE]  - Uses a Sleep Bubble on Koopa
[5 FRAMES LATE]  - Uses a physical on Geno
[6 FRAMES LATE]  - Uses a physical on Geno
[7 FRAMES LATE]  - Uses Echofinder on Koopa

Note - if you see Echofinder used on Mario, it almost certainly means you entered the battle on Even RNG! Echofinder at all (other than 7 frames late) should not occur if you are on the correct set of RNG.

2. Cleared the first Rock Candy freebie text on the wrong frame and Grate Guy....

[TOO EARLY] - Uses Echofinder at all
[4 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG] - Attacks Koopa
[2 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG] - Attacks Mario
[TOO LATE] - Uses Sleep Bubble at all

Note - if you continue the battle after Grate Guy uses a spell, you will have to employ the backup manipulation demonstrated in the video. This manipulation is unfortunately quite slow, but is the closest 6-frame window for Geno's RC freebie that accounts for all possible spells Grate Guy can use. So, assuming you don't want to just throw the RC and pray, you can do this...

- Geno throws the Rock Candy. RNG Increment Window: 3478 - 3483 [6 Frames].
- Koopa (if awake) attacks Grate Guy
- Mario (if awake) attacks Grate Guy. RNG Increment Window: 4454 - 4459 [6 Frames] (if possible).

Practically speaking, planning manipulation for all potential back-up scenarios is unrealistic. So, the most important part is that Geno freebies the Rock Candy, then you can just attack with all characters until Grate Guy dies.

3. Geno throws the Rock Candy and it does not freebie....

This is difficult to determine because an enemy does not immediately get an attack afterwards, so you have to estimate where you are by defending on both Koopa & Mario's turns to see what Grate Guy does. If you do this, he will...

[TOO EARLY] - Use a spell on Mario or Koopa
[TOO LATE]  - Use a spell on Geno or physical attack Mario

Of course, in a real run, you would simply continue on with the fight without the 2nd Rock Candy freebie.

4. Mario punched on the wrong frame and did...

[6 / 5 FRAMES EARLY]      - 116
[4 / 3 FRAMES EARLY]      - 120 (Lucky!)
[1 / 2 FRAMES EARLY]      - 116
[2 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG] - 122
[2 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG] - 126
[2 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG] - 120
[2 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG] - 126
[2 FRAMES OF CORRECT RNG] - 122
[1 / 2 FRAMES LATE]       - 108
[3 / 4 FRAMES LATE]       - 110
[5 - 8 FRAMES LATE]       - 116

Note - with Level 3 ATK on Mario, "116" values become "122", making it possible to attack in an even greater window. If you do this, simply add "6" to all values listed here to figure out what your damage should be.

V. IMPLICATIONS OF THE KG + GG MANIPULATION

Factoring in the save & reset, a fully manipulated fight will lose approximately 6 seconds to a fight that gets absolute perfect luck without using any Rock Candys. However, as this is one of the most luck-dependent fights without manipulation (between Terrorize missing, the Rock Candy not freebieing, characters being put to sleep, Mario getting muted, and large discrepencies between Grate Guy's spells & physical attack animations), a fight like this will save time in what I would estimate to be over 95% of scenarios, while ensuring you have a Rock Candy for battles later on in the run. Having done thorough testing of this manipulation on console, I believe it will be the standard strategy moving forward, with future improvements simply involving hitting more difficult manipulation. Mario's 10 frame punch window, for example, could easily be shifted to a 6 frame window that occurs a bit earlier on in the fight.

Aside from beating the fight quickly, eliminating all luck components, and preserving the Rock Candy, this manipulation has the following implications:

- The required FP for this battle is no longer 16 (the cost of using Fire Orb twice and Terrorize once). Therefore, the total FP required up until this point can simply remain at 15 (the current amount needed for Bowyer). This means you will never have to acquire the flower in the Moleville Mines, which wastes about 1 second.

- It's at least possible to consider skipping the Rose Town accessories now, as one of the main reasons they were bought was to make Geno immune to sleep for this battle.

- More realistically, it's now possible (and recommended) to buy two Fearless Pins instead. This will make Geno immune to both Punchinello & Bundt's Sandstorm, with the only threat now being Bundt's Lulla-Bye attack. However, it seems more likely that Geno will die from being feared + getting hit by spells, rather than being put to sleep. So, a 2nd Fearless Pin seems to be the better option.

- Mario's special attack damage is no longer relevant for this fight. In the current Skip Pandorite route, this means that taking ATK at Level 3 is far more viable, and (based on current assessments) highly recommended. This will help with Punchinello, Megasmilax, Birdo, Valentina, and even KG + GG itself (extends the window for viable punch damage). If you do this, make sure to take SP at Level 15 instead of ATK, so Mario's overall special attack remains the same by the end of the game (necessary to keep the amount of Super Jumps on Smithy 1 the same).

Note - if doing the strategies recommended above (Two Fearless Pins & Level 3 ATK on Mario), skipping the Bad Mushroom for Birdo and buying a few less Able Juices / Pick Me Ups should allow you afford the 2nd Fearless Pin (real coin route to be determined at a later date). The extra ATK on Mario should make defeating Birdo without the Bad Mushroom far more likely, and you can simply attack with Geno if Mario's punches do not end the fight.

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VI. CONCLUSION

None of this would be possible without swinch, true Super Mario RPG scientist! Please contact him if you'd like to learn all the technical details of how this game's RNG works, and also stay up to date on any future manipulations.

If you have any questions about this KG + GG manipulation in particular, feel free to contact swinch or myself. However, I feel this document (along with the video + streamed explanation) will hopefully be sufficient for now. You can also use swinch's document to create your own manipulation! Very useful if you think you can hit smaller frame windows:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_njtQzaoEXR7oyfVAKlBS_hkLrDLTZTSzg6eyKboyyY/edit#gid=1066815764

Good "luck"!

- Claude