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Houshalter

snoonet #futuristparty logs

Houshalter
Apr 24th, 2014
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  1. **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Apr 24 12:55:33 2014
  2.  
  3. Apr 24 12:55:33 * Now talking on #futuristparty
  4. Apr 24 12:55:33 * Topic for #futuristparty is: /r/futuristparty
  5. Apr 24 12:55:33 * Topic for #futuristparty set by idk18!jake@user/idk18 at Sat Apr 19 22:33:28 2014
  6. Apr 24 13:00:24 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to idk18
  7. Apr 24 13:00:24 * corellia.snoonet.org gives channel operator status to idk18
  8. Apr 24 13:00:45 <idk18> hi Qasaur, houshalter, msnook
  9. Apr 24 13:00:51 <Qasaur> hey idk18
  10. Apr 24 13:00:52 <msnook> hey there idk!
  11. Apr 24 13:00:54 <Houshalter> hello
  12. Apr 24 13:00:54 <Qasaur> what up
  13. Apr 24 13:01:08 <idk18> writing, every day I'm writing
  14. Apr 24 13:01:13 <idk18> how about y'all?
  15. Apr 24 13:01:27 <msnook> project-manager-ing?
  16. Apr 24 13:02:12 <idk18> sorry, what?
  17. Apr 24 13:03:02 <msnook> I was trying to come up with a verb for what I'm doing right now :) I'm a project manager. I make political organizing software on a small web dev team.
  18. Apr 24 13:03:09 <msnook> what about you all?
  19. Apr 24 13:03:23 <msnook> what brings you to the futurist party?
  20. Apr 24 13:04:18 <idk18> I'm intrigued by the idea and excited by the energy, so I want to get involved and see what happens
  21. Apr 24 13:04:47 <msnook> yeah! me too. it's hard to figure out how to plug in
  22. Apr 24 13:05:26 <idk18> the key, I'd say, is to speak up. Right now all "this" is is a conversation
  23. Apr 24 13:05:34 <idk18> ugh, double is
  24. Apr 24 13:05:56 <msnook> i feel like we need some sort of… crowd-sourced to-do list and a wiki to start aggregating content and voting to affirm party planks or proposals of the general direction
  25. Apr 24 13:06:50 <msnook> a couple times i have sat down to write a proposed 2-year plan for the futurist party that people could start to talk about. but I don't know like… who I would submit it to for feedback or who are the other people who are committed and knowledgeable enough to want to be a part of it before people start seeing it and responding to it
  26. Apr 24 13:07:22 <idk18> I would just post it on /r/futureparty
  27. Apr 24 13:07:40 <idk18> but yes, more crowd sourcing would really help this project
  28. Apr 24 13:08:16 <msnook> yeah maybe i will post a bunch of questions to reddit and see what people say
  29. Apr 24 13:08:18 <idk18> I'm afraid there is movement towards developing a leadership clique. You may have noticed that submissions to /r/futurepartyboard were restricted
  30. Apr 24 13:08:35 <msnook> i actually just found out about futurepartyboard!
  31. Apr 24 13:08:52 <msnook> i do think there should be a steering committee of some sort
  32. Apr 24 13:08:59 <idk18> um
  33. Apr 24 13:09:06 <idk18> oh
  34. Apr 24 13:09:18 <idk18> I went to /r/futureparty accidently
  35. Apr 24 13:09:26 <idk18> private sub. lol
  36. Apr 24 13:09:26 <msnook> but not to impose rule so much as to create a go-to group of people who provide momentum and commit to deadlines and certain duties to meet goals agreed to by the sub
  37. Apr 24 13:09:40 <idk18> and yeah, agree with you there.
  38. Apr 24 13:10:08 <idk18> it's too early for that though, IMO
  39. Apr 24 13:10:14 <msnook> but like… right now the closest thing we have is a few people making a website who (by their own admission) have very little idea how to set up a website
  40. Apr 24 13:10:18 <idk18> we need to have an actual conversation as a community about where this should go
  41. Apr 24 13:10:48 <idk18> ah, yes, I talked to Landon/NoGoodBro the other day. We decided he acted a bit too quickly.
  42. Apr 24 13:10:57 <idk18> (unilateral actions like that=bad)
  43. Apr 24 13:11:14 <msnook> so it's like… appreciate the effort on the website, but we haven't had the group convo yet about what it needs to say! or had a group discussion appointing some group of people with experience to identify a process to be approved by the sub
  44. Apr 24 13:11:43 <idk18> yeah. Honestly, we don't even know if the name "futurist party" is going to hold up
  45. Apr 24 13:11:50 <idk18> honestly, I'm not sure about it
  46. Apr 24 13:11:55 <msnook> i can't criticize them for taking unilateral action though. i started working on my own: http://michaelsnook.github.io/futurist-party-dev/
  47. Apr 24 13:11:58 <msnook> :)
  48. Apr 24 13:12:12 <msnook> (it's just the content from the sidebar of the subreddit)
  49. Apr 24 13:12:36 <idk18> neat
  50. Apr 24 13:12:57 <idk18> there's difference between futuristparty.com and your github account though
  51. Apr 24 13:13:05 <msnook> just it's only an example or a placeholder until the sub weighs in (and we prototypers have to be fine with completely scrapping our existing work when it does)
  52. Apr 24 13:13:20 <msnook> you mean futuristparty.org
  53. Apr 24 13:13:25 <idk18> yeah
  54. Apr 24 13:13:28 <msnook> yeah they wrote their own content
  55. Apr 24 13:13:55 <msnook> i didn't worry about content (not my place anyway) and just wanted to throw up an example on a public and sharable and auditable place
  56. Apr 24 13:14:37 <idk18> hey, so do you mind me ask what project you're working on now? You said something about political software?
  57. Apr 24 13:14:44 <Houshalter> what are the main issues of the futurist party? BI?
  58. Apr 24 13:15:11 <msnook> check platforms and principles
  59. Apr 24 13:15:23 <idk18> @houshalter: TBD. The main ones floated so far are net neutrality and basic income (as far as I can tell)
  60. Apr 24 13:15:28 <msnook> Net Neutrality, UBI, Space Colonization, Emerging Technologies Research
  61. Apr 24 13:21:05 <idk18> is my connection still good?
  62. Apr 24 13:21:28 <Houshalter> idk18: yes
  63. Apr 24 13:21:39 <Houshalter> space colonization seems like a waste time
  64. Apr 24 13:21:40 <idk18> ah, cool. my browser keeps crashing, though
  65. Apr 24 13:22:09 <idk18> yeah, I'm not really a space person myself.
  66. Apr 24 13:28:56 <msnook> idk18, Househalter, space is where it's at man
  67. Apr 24 13:29:05 <msnook> space gets you all the young people
  68. Apr 24 13:29:09 <msnook> it gets you the image
  69. Apr 24 13:29:41 <msnook> it gets you all these disaffected people who can't believe we're still squabbling over dump crap
  70. Apr 24 13:30:27 <msnook> dumb*
  71. Apr 24 13:30:49 <msnook> also it's a huge economic driver. money spent on space programs is incredibly effective as a money multiplier and job-creator
  72. Apr 24 13:31:07 <msnook> plus mining asteroids and figuring out the secrets of the universe is what all this about
  73. Apr 24 13:31:32 <Houshalter> are we doing it to get votes or because it's right?
  74. Apr 24 13:31:37 <Houshalter> see the broken window fallacy
  75. Apr 24 13:31:48 <Houshalter> and asteroid mining isn't space colonization
  76. Apr 24 13:31:51 <msnook> whynotboth.jpg
  77. Apr 24 13:32:36 <msnook> sure but both will require inventing a bunch of new technologies that a) we don't have now, and b) will improve lives and engineering capabilities for real people on the planet now
  78. Apr 24 13:32:39 <idk18> msnook: remember gingrich's lunar base?
  79. Apr 24 13:32:52 <msnook> gingrich wasn't credible so people thought it was out of the blue
  80. Apr 24 13:32:58 <msnook> it fits our narrative
  81. Apr 24 13:33:10 <Houshalter> opportunity cost: invest in technology in general, rather than space
  82. Apr 24 13:33:10 <msnook> people will think we're unserious because of our name first, not our ideas
  83. Apr 24 13:33:47 <msnook> sure. space is just sort of one apex
  84. Apr 24 13:34:05 <idk18> I'd support increased science and technology funding, including space exploration funding, tied into a package of keynesian programs. Infrastructure projects (light rail, anybody?) etc.
  85. Apr 24 13:34:08 <msnook> one thing that unites a bunch of different countries and technology industries into common purposes
  86. Apr 24 13:34:14 <msnook> totally
  87. Apr 24 13:34:27 <msnook> i agree with that idk18
  88. Apr 24 13:34:46 <Houshalter> we need to invest in sciences and technologies that have practical benefit
  89. Apr 24 13:35:04 <idk18> it'd be easier to pass that way too. I just don't think making "space exploration" a tip top priority makes any sense. There's a lot more immediate things which need sorting out
  90. Apr 24 13:35:13 <Houshalter> medicine is by far the biggeset one
  91. Apr 24 13:35:38 <idk18> houshalter: yeah, medicine (particularly antibiotics) need some serious R&D funding
  92. Apr 24 13:35:45 <Houshalter> we should try to keep as many people alive until the singularity as possible
  93. Apr 24 13:35:48 <idk18> all this "end of the antibiotic age" talk is some scary shit
  94. Apr 24 13:36:08 <msnook> agreed. we should have a party platform of being against humans going extinct
  95. Apr 24 13:36:22 <idk18> er, about that singularity thing
  96. Apr 24 13:36:54 <Houshalter> there should be a larger focus on existential risks. Existential risk is very rarely taken seriously in the mainstream
  97. Apr 24 13:37:00 <idk18> not really sure i see any reason for an expiration date for this party (the whole "disestablish in 2045" thing)
  98. Apr 24 13:37:11 <Houshalter> ya that's a bit silly
  99. Apr 24 13:37:49 <msnook> yeah, Houshalter, i think the existential risks thing also hits at another important nerve
  100. Apr 24 13:38:02 <msnook> which is that there's a lot of magical thinking where people don't think it's possible for us to just get annihilated
  101. Apr 24 13:38:51 <idk18> y'all should read this if you haven't already. Certainly not official, but the guy who founded the subs and runs /r/futurology drafted it, so it's worth knowing what he's thinking:
  102. Apr 24 13:38:52 <idk18> http://www.reddit.com/r/FuturistPartyBoard/comments/23spqm/working_platform/
  103. Apr 24 13:39:03 <msnook> and making the argument that "yes, that's possible", that there is no law of physics that prevents us from being wiped off the face of history, is really important because a lot of ingorant people will argue with it, and having that discourse in public can be a powerful way to dislodge magical thinking from our culture
  104. Apr 24 13:39:58 <Houshalter> well there is the anthropic effect, but yes I think it's important to avoid
  105. Apr 24 13:40:50 <msnook> hey idk18, what do you think of this platform?
  106. Apr 24 13:41:11 <Houshalter> we should also invest in finding life on mars. Because if we do it's deeply concerning
  107. Apr 24 13:41:37 <msnook> Houshalter I thought you were the "practical applications" one! :)
  108. Apr 24 13:42:00 <idk18> msnook: I proposed some additions in the comments. In general, I think it's inadequate at addressing the issues which actually impact folks
  109. Apr 24 13:42:11 <msnook> i would like to see it be a bit more radical!
  110. Apr 24 13:42:14 <Houshalter> indeed, but if there is life on mars, the universe is probably teeming with it
  111. Apr 24 13:42:41 <msnook> income repayment! no, free college. that impacts a ton of people and we could afford it
  112. Apr 24 13:42:56 <idk18> msnook: me too. full disclosure, I'm a socialist involved in a lot of organizing on leftist lines
  113. Apr 24 13:43:03 <msnook> (Househalter: agreed)
  114. Apr 24 13:43:13 <msnook> idk18 oh great me too!
  115. Apr 24 13:43:22 <idk18> I'm just trying to feel out where everyone else is; if you come on to strong to early, it's easy to be ignored
  116. Apr 24 13:43:36 <idk18> msnook, that thing I pulled from here: http://www.dsausa.org/drop_student_debt
  117. Apr 24 13:43:43 <msnook> sure, i think i feel the same way
  118. Apr 24 13:44:00 <msnook> i'm talkative over here but i try not to barge in on people's threads because i'm still getting my bearings
  119. Apr 24 13:44:20 <idk18> so my addition is the "short term reform." Long term the idea is free college and debt cancellation across the board
  120. Apr 24 13:44:27 <msnook> (actually I'm founding my own political party and trying to see if I should just help the futurist party or do my own thing)
  121. Apr 24 13:44:44 <msnook> right. like a "first steps > end goals" thingi
  122. Apr 24 13:45:08 <idk18> houshalter, how do you feel about the "working platform?"
  123. Apr 24 13:46:02 <Houshalter> I just skimmed through it but I think it's pretty good so far, and I do agree with Xenophon1
  124. Apr 24 13:46:33 <Houshalter> we should also support proportional representation and condorcet voting. That would benefit us a lot
  125. Apr 24 13:48:06 <Houshalter> i found this on the futurology wiki http://www.reddit.com/r/futurology/wiki/projects
  126. Apr 24 13:48:40 <idk18> I'm not sure about PR
  127. Apr 24 13:48:54 <idk18> there's something to be said for representatives of local interests
  128. Apr 24 13:49:34 <Houshalter> perhaps, but how would a third party like us ever win an election?
  129. Apr 24 13:50:29 <idk18> IRV
  130. Apr 24 13:50:59 <Houshalter> instant runoff has problems
  131. Apr 24 13:52:58 <idk18> as does PR
  132. Apr 24 13:54:59 <msnook> i don't think it's a good idea to spend a lot of time talking about voting methodologies in the beginning
  133. Apr 24 13:55:01 <Houshalter> well PR is for electing a council of people, instant runoff is for electing a single individual. Not really comparable
  134. Apr 24 13:56:10 <idk18> not sure how that is relevant
  135. Apr 24 13:56:17 <idk18> the australian senate uses IRV
  136. Apr 24 13:57:22 <Houshalter> everyone votes for a single candditate from their district or whatever
  137. Apr 24 13:57:33 <idk18> yes, exactly my point
  138. Apr 24 13:57:35 <Houshalter> if you vote for the losing candidtate, you are not represented
  139. Apr 24 13:58:23 <Houshalter> 51% of the population is in favor of party A, but 100% of the seats go to party A (or the other way around with gerrymandering)
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  152. Apr 24 17:02:37 <idk18> hi unix_kid
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  168. Apr 24 17:32:20 * Disconnected (Connection reset by peer).
  169. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 24 17:32:20 2014
  170.  
  171. **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Apr 24 19:37:16 2014
  172.  
  173. Apr 24 19:37:16 * Now talking on #futuristparty
  174. Apr 24 19:37:16 * Topic for #futuristparty is: /r/futuristparty
  175. Apr 24 19:37:16 * Topic for #futuristparty set by idk18!jake@user/idk18 at Sat Apr 19 22:33:28 2014
  176. Apr 24 19:58:25 * s3ns (s3ns@Snoonet-6c2.6h6.u94aaj.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  177. Apr 24 20:16:59 * RichardM (RichardM@Snoonet-697.m31.3285ts.IP) has joined #futuristparty
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  180. Apr 24 20:36:58 * msnook1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  181. Apr 24 20:38:12 * msnook (Adium@Snoonet-ppf.san.bnt7j6.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  182. Apr 24 20:38:33 * msnook has quit (Quit: Leaving.)
  183. Apr 24 21:05:29 * Qasaur (qasaur@user/Qasaur) has joined #futuristparty
  184. Apr 24 21:06:11 * NotGoodBro (NotGoodBro@Snoonet-ad7.gr9.sj65b1.IP) has joined #futuristparty
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  187. Apr 24 21:28:48 <Fafnirsage> hello all
  188. Apr 24 21:29:22 <Houshalter> hello
  189. Apr 24 21:29:39 <Fafnirsage> how is it going?
  190. Apr 24 21:30:22 * Fafnirsage has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
  191. Apr 24 21:30:37 * Fafnirsage (Fafnirsage@Snoonet-nl6.8fi.fklob4.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  192. Apr 24 21:30:43 <Fafnirsage> sorry about that
  193. Apr 24 21:31:07 <Fafnirsage> Accidentally blew up tab
  194. Apr 24 21:34:39 <NotGoodBro> Hey, going pretty well, how about you?
  195. Apr 24 21:34:52 <Fafnirsage> Pretty good
  196. Apr 24 21:36:45 <Fafnirsage> Have any thoughts for the meeting?
  197. Apr 24 21:38:23 <NotGoodBro> I'm mainly interested in brainstorming ideas for the platform and discussing the current one
  198. Apr 24 21:39:21 <Fafnirsage> Same as me
  199. Apr 24 21:41:01 <Fafnirsage> brb swapping devices
  200. Apr 24 21:41:40 * Fafnirsage has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
  201. Apr 24 21:41:47 * Fafnirsage (Fafnirsage@Snoonet-nl6.8fi.fklob4.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  202. Apr 24 21:41:59 <Fafnirsage> back
  203. Apr 24 21:48:16 * EdEnlightenU (EdEnlighten@Snoonet-u75.v7s.nhqitc.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  204. Apr 24 21:48:26 <EdEnlightenU> Hey
  205. Apr 24 21:48:34 <Fafnirsage> Hello
  206. Apr 24 21:48:46 <EdEnlightenU> How you doing?
  207. Apr 24 21:48:51 <Fafnirsage> Good, you?
  208. Apr 24 21:48:56 <EdEnlightenU> fantastic haha
  209. Apr 24 21:49:00 <EdEnlightenU> where are you from?
  210. Apr 24 21:49:05 <Fafnirsage> Chicago-area
  211. Apr 24 21:49:07 <Fafnirsage> you?
  212. Apr 24 21:49:28 <EdEnlightenU> Boston
  213. Apr 24 21:49:34 <EdEnlightenU> ever been to lollapalooza?
  214. Apr 24 21:49:45 <Fafnirsage> Nah
  215. Apr 24 21:50:12 <EdEnlightenU> How'd you get interested in the futurist party?
  216. Apr 24 21:51:06 <Fafnirsage> futurology sub
  217. Apr 24 21:51:11 <Fafnirsage> linked me to the subreddit
  218. Apr 24 21:51:26 <Fafnirsage> and I was like this is what I want out of a political party, fits my views very well
  219. Apr 24 21:51:33 <NotGoodBro> Hey Ed
  220. Apr 24 21:51:39 <EdEnlightenU> Hey
  221. Apr 24 21:51:53 <EdEnlightenU> yea it's weird how similar my views are to everything we talk about
  222. Apr 24 21:52:06 <EdEnlightenU> it just seems like we all want to help people and advance humanity
  223. Apr 24 21:52:16 <EdEnlightenU> but I guess that's what everyone probably thinks
  224. Apr 24 21:52:34 <Fafnirsage> but at least we have found others that agree on the means to achieve that
  225. Apr 24 21:53:29 <NotGoodBro> As time progresses, the values of this party will probably become increasingly popular
  226. Apr 24 21:54:13 <Fafnirsage> And relevant, problems are going to arise, and I think the values are equipped to deal with that
  227. Apr 24 21:54:32 <EdEnlightenU> It seems technological change has far surpassed our current political system
  228. Apr 24 21:55:08 <EdEnlightenU> and rather than solving underlying problems, politicians just add band aids
  229. Apr 24 21:55:16 <NotGoodBro> Oh, absolutely
  230. Apr 24 21:55:22 <Fafnirsage> Definitely
  231. Apr 24 21:55:37 <Fafnirsage> Its easier to fix a short term problem that will make everyone happy, and ignore the longterm consequences
  232. Apr 24 21:56:02 <EdEnlightenU> I think in 500 years, we'll look back and view the Internet as one of the best if not the best invention
  233. Apr 24 21:56:10 <EdEnlightenU> ideas can spread so fast
  234. Apr 24 21:56:33 <Fafnirsage> I was talking with a friend about widespread automation, and she was scared of the short-term massive unemployment, and hesitant about adopting it...I was like change involves pain, and innovation helps
  235. Apr 24 21:56:43 <EdEnlightenU> but the current gov hasn't done anything to allow the Internet to innovate politics
  236. Apr 24 21:56:49 <Fafnirsage> The Internet is fantastic like I cant begin express how monumental it is
  237. Apr 24 21:56:51 <NotGoodBro> the internet is the greatest invention created to date
  238. Apr 24 21:57:17 <EdEnlightenU> open source government is a pretty wild idea
  239. Apr 24 21:57:24 <EdEnlightenU> anyone can suggest an improvement
  240. Apr 24 21:57:26 <NotGoodBro> Also, we should be coming up with ideas now to combat the the structural unemployment that is so evidently coming
  241. Apr 24 21:57:29 <Fafnirsage> Yea
  242. Apr 24 21:57:33 <Fafnirsage> That is my whole stick
  243. Apr 24 21:57:42 <Fafnirsage> and why I am so interested in the party
  244. Apr 24 21:57:54 <EdEnlightenU> open source gov or combating unemployment?
  245. Apr 24 21:57:59 <Fafnirsage> unemployment
  246. Apr 24 21:58:32 <Fafnirsage> I think combatting structural unemployment should be our main platform, it appeals to a lot of people who are going to be phased out of the workforce due to AI advances
  247. Apr 24 21:58:36 <NotGoodBro> I would also like to hear some lobbying for open source government in the IRC tonight.
  248. Apr 24 21:59:07 <Fafnirsage> I don't know much about open source gov, can either of you give me the gist?
  249. Apr 24 21:59:35 <NotGoodBro> That's why I said I needed lobbying haha
  250. Apr 24 21:59:48 <Fafnirsage> Haha that makes sense then
  251. Apr 24 21:59:58 <Fafnirsage> there are a lot of new ideas out there
  252. Apr 24 22:00:00 <EdEnlightenU> The way I think of it is every law is put on a website
  253. Apr 24 22:00:30 <EdEnlightenU> if someone suggests an improvement it would be voted on via a direct vote
  254. Apr 24 22:00:44 <EdEnlightenU> and if the majority agree with the change it would go into effect
  255. Apr 24 22:01:29 <EdEnlightenU> I'm very big into states rights too
  256. Apr 24 22:01:34 <Fafnirsage> I feel like I'm in the minority, as I have strong reservations/dislike for total-democracy sort of things
  257. Apr 24 22:01:36 <NotGoodBro> Would the laws being put on the website need a certain number of petitions? Would their still be a representative body to create and format these laws?
  258. Apr 24 22:01:38 <EdEnlightenU> I think it would be great to have 50 experiments
  259. Apr 24 22:01:54 <EdEnlightenU> some states can try things, if it works others will adopt
  260. Apr 24 22:02:03 <EdEnlightenU> you could then move to states that have similar views as you
  261. Apr 24 22:02:25 <NotGoodBro> I was thinking to create a Lobbying group in my state in hopes t
  262. Apr 24 22:02:37 <Fafnirsage> Each having their own political ecosystem....I like this idea
  263. Apr 24 22:02:46 <EdEnlightenU> The big knock on total democracy is that the average person isn't smart
  264. Apr 24 22:02:51 <EdEnlightenU> is that why you don't like it
  265. Apr 24 22:02:53 <EdEnlightenU> ?
  266. Apr 24 22:03:00 <NotGoodBro> to get them to adopt proportinal representation
  267. Apr 24 22:03:27 <Fafnirsage> Sort of, also I feel that democracy is slower and prone to abuse. I lean towards a more totalitarian (scary, ikr) view
  268. Apr 24 22:03:27 <NotGoodBro> Also, knee-jerk reactions
  269. Apr 24 22:03:50 * kitzuni (kitzuni@Snoonet-hvo.lc3.1c98a8.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  270. Apr 24 22:03:53 <Fafnirsage> welcome!
  271. Apr 24 22:04:03 <kitzuni> hello!
  272. Apr 24 22:04:07 <EdEnlightenU> Hey!
  273. Apr 24 22:04:19 <NotGoodBro> Hey Kitz
  274. Apr 24 22:06:00 <EdEnlightenU> I'm pretty in favor of a direct vote
  275. Apr 24 22:06:11 <Fafnirsage> Not to say totalitarian style government is not prone to abuse, of course it is, and it is more dangerous. But it has the qualities to create a cohesion to get things done, and I admire that in a system
  276. Apr 24 22:08:05 <EdEnlightenU> Totalitarian would be great if you had an amazing leader but without checks it could get dangerous quickly
  277. Apr 24 22:08:11 <Fafnirsage> Yea
  278. Apr 24 22:08:13 <EdEnlightenU> I don't think the US will ever adopt that
  279. Apr 24 22:08:15 <NotGoodBro> Yes, but it seems unhealthy that the things getting done are not as closely representative to the population
  280. Apr 24 22:08:20 <EdEnlightenU> There's a math law something like "law of large numbers" where the more inputs you have the closer to the average you get
  281. Apr 24 22:08:26 <Fafnirsage> Maybe a totalitarian upper system, with a direct vote check ya know?
  282. Apr 24 22:08:48 <NotGoodBro> Like a parliamentary democracy?
  283. Apr 24 22:08:56 * unix_kid (unix_kid@user/unix-kid/x-67592849) has joined #futuristparty
  284. Apr 24 22:08:59 <Fafnirsage> Hmm, sort of
  285. Apr 24 22:09:01 <Fafnirsage> Welcome!
  286. Apr 24 22:09:03 <NotGoodBro> Welcome!
  287. Apr 24 22:09:16 <unix_kid> Took too long of a shower..
  288. Apr 24 22:09:17 <unix_kid> xD
  289. Apr 24 22:09:31 <EdEnlightenU> Hey
  290. Apr 24 22:09:33 <Fafnirsage> Larger sample size brings the average closer to the true average or something like that
  291. Apr 24 22:09:38 <EdEnlightenU> yea
  292. Apr 24 22:09:54 <Fafnirsage> the question is the sample size actually a representative of the true whole
  293. Apr 24 22:10:17 <Fafnirsage> the problem I see with direct vote, and with current democracy, is that lots of people are still pushed out of the voting process or left out completely
  294. Apr 24 22:10:21 * Rith (Rith@Snoonet-foc.fbo.d4rbrn.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  295. Apr 24 22:10:25 <Fafnirsage> Welcome!
  296. Apr 24 22:10:33 <EdEnlightenU> if you opened the vote up to everyone in the US, only the people who cared would vote
  297. Apr 24 22:10:41 <NotGoodBro> How could people be left out of a direct democracy?
  298. Apr 24 22:10:45 <EdEnlightenU> if people don't care and don't want to vote, why is that a problem?
  299. Apr 24 22:11:13 <Fafnirsage> People could choose not to vote, yet still complain and protest about the changes and cause a fuss
  300. Apr 24 22:11:17 <unix_kid> So
  301. Apr 24 22:11:21 <unix_kid> I need some literature to read
  302. Apr 24 22:11:30 <Fafnirsage> it isn't necessarily a problem, it is just irritating
  303. Apr 24 22:11:30 <unix_kid> Also regarding the vote
  304. Apr 24 22:11:32 <NotGoodBro> Pertaining to?
  305. Apr 24 22:11:39 <unix_kid> Oh
  306. Apr 24 22:11:44 <unix_kid> Pertaining to transhumanism or idealism
  307. Apr 24 22:11:45 <unix_kid> Either or
  308. Apr 24 22:11:52 <Fafnirsage> I know a good rationalist blog....
  309. Apr 24 22:11:55 <Fafnirsage> sort of there...
  310. Apr 24 22:11:56 <unix_kid> Or anything involving the concept of how bad property is..
  311. Apr 24 22:12:01 <unix_kid> <- is not a rationalist
  312. Apr 24 22:12:04 <unix_kid> :P
  313. Apr 24 22:12:07 <Fafnirsage> QQ
  314. Apr 24 22:12:09 <unix_kid> Keyword: idealism :P
  315. Apr 24 22:12:53 <Fafnirsage> there is like kurzewiel right?
  316. Apr 24 22:13:02 <unix_kid> EdEnlightenU, I live in the US, not a US citizen, I'd vote if I was allowed to.
  317. Apr 24 22:13:26 <EdEnlightenU> voting is empowering
  318. Apr 24 22:13:47 <EdEnlightenU> I feel voting for a representative is so 1950's
  319. Apr 24 22:13:50 <EdEnlightenU> it's 2014 man
  320. Apr 24 22:13:50 <unix_kid> I'll be able to vote in some Portuguese elections...
  321. Apr 24 22:14:02 <unix_kid> Least I'll have more options to vote for than if I were American
  322. Apr 24 22:14:03 <EdEnlightenU> Internet direct vote haha
  323. Apr 24 22:14:05 <unix_kid> Where it's only Blue or Red
  324. Apr 24 22:14:06 <unix_kid> lol
  325. Apr 24 22:14:12 <Fafnirsage> Lol
  326. Apr 24 22:14:15 <unix_kid> EdEnlightenU, I'd love that
  327. Apr 24 22:14:20 <unix_kid> However; there are technical issues
  328. Apr 24 22:14:23 <Fafnirsage> ^
  329. Apr 24 22:14:25 <unix_kid> Such as each person only getting one vote.
  330. Apr 24 22:14:35 <EdEnlightenU> yea security issues
  331. Apr 24 22:14:35 <unix_kid> Need some kind of authentication system
  332. Apr 24 22:14:39 <unix_kid> That is the first step
  333. Apr 24 22:14:41 <EdEnlightenU> There's some very smart people out there
  334. Apr 24 22:14:42 <unix_kid> And some kind of verification system
  335. Apr 24 22:14:43 <Fafnirsage> Security systems are hard to implement
  336. Apr 24 22:14:47 <EdEnlightenU> you could get one vote per SSN
  337. Apr 24 22:14:48 <unix_kid> Perhaps some distributed verification system
  338. Apr 24 22:14:59 <unix_kid> EdEnlightenU, you still leave people without an SSN out
  339. Apr 24 22:14:59 <EdEnlightenU> some engineers at Google could figure something out I'm sure
  340. Apr 24 22:15:07 <Houshalter> democracy is horrible
  341. Apr 24 22:15:12 <unix_kid> Go with something broader but verifiable
  342. Apr 24 22:15:14 <NotGoodBro> Also, Internet access would have to be paid for by the government. It's unfair to basically make low-income people have to go and access the internet everday to vote
  343. Apr 24 22:15:18 <Fafnirsage> Yea
  344. Apr 24 22:15:33 <Fafnirsage> Thats why I have reservations, like it is prone to abuse
  345. Apr 24 22:15:39 <EdEnlightenU> Alright it's 10:15 we should probably get started with next steps
  346. Apr 24 22:15:40 <unix_kid> I agree with you NotGoodBro
  347. Apr 24 22:15:52 <unix_kid> Municipalities should build out fiberoptic systems for residents
  348. Apr 24 22:15:57 <unix_kid> And offer free wireless
  349. Apr 24 22:15:57 <unix_kid> :)
  350. Apr 24 22:16:06 <Fafnirsage> Before we start I have general question
  351. Apr 24 22:16:13 <Fafnirsage> like what demographics are we all in?
  352. Apr 24 22:16:22 <unix_kid> Uhh
  353. Apr 24 22:16:25 <unix_kid> Like..?
  354. Apr 24 22:16:29 <Fafnirsage> are we all white men/women
  355. Apr 24 22:16:30 <NotGoodBro> white?...
  356. Apr 24 22:16:31 <Fafnirsage> <30's
  357. Apr 24 22:16:33 <EdEnlightenU> in the end does it matter?
  358. Apr 24 22:16:40 <Fafnirsage> I was just wondering lol
  359. Apr 24 22:16:46 <unix_kid> I'm white, 17, male, Portuguese, living in the State of Rhode Island, USA.
  360. Apr 24 22:16:51 <unix_kid> Learning C++/Python
  361. Apr 24 22:16:53 <unix_kid> Anything else?
  362. Apr 24 22:16:55 <EdEnlightenU> Yea if you're curious not a big deal
  363. Apr 24 22:17:03 <NotGoodBro> Do you like long walks on the beach?
  364. Apr 24 22:17:06 <unix_kid> Haha
  365. Apr 24 22:17:07 <kitzuni> haha
  366. Apr 24 22:17:07 <unix_kid> No
  367. Apr 24 22:17:07 <Fafnirsage> lol yes
  368. Apr 24 22:17:15 <Fafnirsage> C++? nice
  369. Apr 24 22:17:18 <Fafnirsage> I'm learning LISP
  370. Apr 24 22:17:21 <Fafnirsage> and Java
  371. Apr 24 22:17:26 <unix_kid> Why not Clojure
  372. Apr 24 22:17:27 <unix_kid> xD
  373. Apr 24 22:17:32 <Fafnirsage> <-- White, 17, female
  374. Apr 24 22:17:36 <Fafnirsage> clojure is icky
  375. Apr 24 22:17:42 <Fafnirsage> common lisp is god's language
  376. Apr 24 22:17:45 <NotGoodBro> White, 18, male
  377. Apr 24 22:17:57 <EdEnlightenU> white, 21, male
  378. Apr 24 22:18:03 <EdEnlightenU> Boston
  379. Apr 24 22:18:07 <EdEnlightenU> where are you guys from?
  380. Apr 24 22:18:13 <unix_kid> Scroll up lol
  381. Apr 24 22:18:14 <unix_kid> Rhode Island
  382. Apr 24 22:18:15 <unix_kid> :)
  383. Apr 24 22:18:15 <NotGoodBro> Florida
  384. Apr 24 22:18:18 <Fafnirsage> chicago
  385. Apr 24 22:18:30 <EdEnlightenU> Hourshalter you chatting away?
  386. Apr 24 22:18:35 <EdEnlightenU> or anyone else?
  387. Apr 24 22:18:35 <Houshalter> scheme is god's language
  388. Apr 24 22:18:38 <kitzuni> Mixed, (African-American, Caucasian ;p), 16, Florida as well.
  389. Apr 24 22:18:42 <Fafnirsage> Scheme is....
  390. Apr 24 22:18:44 <Fafnirsage> Im sorry
  391. Apr 24 22:18:45 <unix_kid> So many young people
  392. Apr 24 22:18:48 <NotGoodBro> Specifically Tallahassee
  393. Apr 24 22:18:54 <Houshalter> white, 20, male
  394. Apr 24 22:18:56 <Fafnirsage> yea, thats why I what I was really wondering
  395. Apr 24 22:18:57 <NotGoodBro> This party is a youth goldmine
  396. Apr 24 22:19:02 <Fafnirsage> er what I was really wondering*
  397. Apr 24 22:19:02 <unix_kid> Fafnirsage, are you really female and a programmer?
  398. Apr 24 22:19:04 <Fafnirsage> yes
  399. Apr 24 22:19:07 <NotGoodBro> Which is sooooooo important
  400. Apr 24 22:19:10 <unix_kid> Well welcome to the STEM club
  401. Apr 24 22:19:14 <EdEnlightenU> we have more energy to create change
  402. Apr 24 22:19:25 <Houshalter> young people are the future!
  403. Apr 24 22:19:28 <Fafnirsage> so homogenous and full of youth
  404. Apr 24 22:19:30 <NotGoodBro> Current politics discourage young voters.
  405. Apr 24 22:19:43 <Fafnirsage> Yea I'm actually a girl xD
  406. Apr 24 22:19:44 <EdEnlightenU> we understand what our generation wants
  407. Apr 24 22:19:57 <Fafnirsage> young voters get the shaft
  408. Apr 24 22:19:58 <NotGoodBro> The ideas of a average 18-25 year old are not properly represented
  409. Apr 24 22:20:00 <EdEnlightenU> and we are forward thinking about tech
  410. Apr 24 22:20:04 <unix_kid> I'm curious; Fafnirsage, as a girl, what is the "glass ceiling" that prevents more females from going into STEM, specifically, computer science?
  411. Apr 24 22:20:36 <NotGoodBro> The current tidal wave of STEM college girls is very good
  412. Apr 24 22:21:00 <Fafnirsage> Well. I don't really know. I don't care about other girls, all I know is that there are few in CS and I get lots of money easy college admissions for being in cs and having two x chromosomes
  413. Apr 24 22:21:10 <unix_kid> Haha
  414. Apr 24 22:21:13 <NotGoodBro> I know a lot of girls at my school expressing engineering hopes. I'm not saying my school is representative, but it seems nice.
  415. Apr 24 22:21:22 <Fafnirsage> To guess, problem is prob stereotyping
  416. Apr 24 22:21:26 <Fafnirsage> and culture
  417. Apr 24 22:21:32 <NotGoodBro> Mostly culture
  418. Apr 24 22:21:47 <EdEnlightenU> I've noticed most futurists are male
  419. Apr 24 22:21:51 <unix_kid> I blame Windows Vista for indirectly getting me into programming
  420. Apr 24 22:21:57 <Fafnirsage> I blame Skyrim modding
  421. Apr 24 22:21:59 <unix_kid> Windows Vista got me into Linux :/
  422. Apr 24 22:22:03 <Fafnirsage> LOL
  423. Apr 24 22:22:09 <NotGoodBro> Most reddit users are male though. For now it only makes sense to be that way
  424. Apr 24 22:22:10 <unix_kid> Which of course led to programming
  425. Apr 24 22:22:12 <EdEnlightenU> I run a meetup Boston Futurist Society and almost everyone is a guy
  426. Apr 24 22:22:18 <unix_kid> Skyrim's awesome
  427. Apr 24 22:22:22 <Fafnirsage> Probably white or asian too, right
  428. Apr 24 22:22:29 <unix_kid> However I have "can't finish a game ever" syndrome
  429. Apr 24 22:22:32 <EdEnlightenU> alright we need to focus haha
  430. Apr 24 22:22:35 <Fafnirsage> YES
  431. Apr 24 22:22:40 <EdEnlightenU> we can chat anytime
  432. Apr 24 22:22:48 <NotGoodBro> Haha
  433. Apr 24 22:22:49 <EdEnlightenU> You guys seem really cool
  434. Apr 24 22:22:52 <EdEnlightenU> haha butttt
  435. Apr 24 22:22:59 <EdEnlightenU> what are they next steps?
  436. Apr 24 22:23:00 <Houshalter> create #futuristpartychat
  437. Apr 24 22:23:02 <unix_kid> Wait what are we discussing
  438. Apr 24 22:23:14 <EdEnlightenU> Next steps moving forward with the party
  439. Apr 24 22:23:16 <Fafnirsage> the direction of the party
  440. Apr 24 22:23:20 <Fafnirsage> ^^
  441. Apr 24 22:23:21 <unix_kid> Party.
  442. Apr 24 22:23:23 <Fafnirsage> er fail
  443. Apr 24 22:23:23 <unix_kid> Oh boy.
  444. Apr 24 22:23:24 <EdEnlightenU> I think getting social media accounts would be good
  445. Apr 24 22:23:26 <unix_kid> Political party?
  446. Apr 24 22:23:33 <EdEnlightenU> unix_kid haha w
  447. Apr 24 22:23:40 <Fafnirsage> Official twitter account?
  448. Apr 24 22:23:40 <EdEnlightenU> Whered you come from
  449. Apr 24 22:23:43 <unix_kid> Sorry I was just told that I should be here.
  450. Apr 24 22:23:44 <NotGoodBro> lol
  451. Apr 24 22:23:44 <EdEnlightenU> haha
  452. Apr 24 22:23:48 <unix_kid> From #futurology
  453. Apr 24 22:23:51 <EdEnlightenU> ohhhh
  454. Apr 24 22:23:53 <Fafnirsage> LOL
  455. Apr 24 22:23:54 <EdEnlightenU> cool
  456. Apr 24 22:23:55 <unix_kid> Which I literally just joined today
  457. Apr 24 22:23:56 <kitzuni> !!
  458. Apr 24 22:24:25 <Fafnirsage> I think Twitter would be a good social media account to make first
  459. Apr 24 22:24:36 <unix_kid> We're going to need a political platform
  460. Apr 24 22:24:45 <unix_kid> Be clear and consistent with our ideology
  461. Apr 24 22:25:07 <Fafnirsage> http://www.reddit.com/r/futuristparty/wiki/index
  462. Apr 24 22:25:10 <NotGoodBro> We roughly have one
  463. Apr 24 22:25:12 <EdEnlightenU> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KVdpicvIKwjQXapwKZ0TAruBItq5ovUDa25ocpkZook/edit
  464. Apr 24 22:25:30 <Fafnirsage> There is much to iron out ofc
  465. Apr 24 22:25:36 <EdEnlightenU> http://www.futuristparty.org/
  466. Apr 24 22:25:37 <Fafnirsage> but the core is there
  467. Apr 24 22:25:37 <kitzuni> The current website, while a good base, I think needs some work to be more "inviting?"
  468. Apr 24 22:25:43 <Fafnirsage> Def
  469. Apr 24 22:25:44 <unix_kid> Oh awesome
  470. Apr 24 22:25:51 <unix_kid> I also propose the elimination of labor and property while we're at it :/
  471. Apr 24 22:25:55 <unix_kid> But those are long-term goals
  472. Apr 24 22:25:55 <unix_kid> :p
  473. Apr 24 22:26:23 <Fafnirsage> Did anyone read my idea on a new logo
  474. Apr 24 22:26:35 <unix_kid> Just some background, I come from Freenode's ##marxism, which I recently pissed them off by going all out on "we should eliminate labor with robots" speech
  475. Apr 24 22:26:36 <unix_kid> lol
  476. Apr 24 22:26:46 <Fafnirsage> like make the base a bicycle wheel with stars and the spaceship
  477. Apr 24 22:27:10 <Fafnirsage> I don't think futuristparty is going to be dealing with the whole property thing, or should imo
  478. Apr 24 22:27:17 <Fafnirsage> it might actually solve itself
  479. Apr 24 22:27:26 <EdEnlightenU> I agree
  480. Apr 24 22:27:27 <unix_kid> I think it's inevitable
  481. Apr 24 22:27:30 <Fafnirsage> so i dont think it should be a primary platform or even thought
  482. Apr 24 22:27:35 <EdEnlightenU> It's too radical
  483. Apr 24 22:27:35 <Fafnirsage> yea
  484. Apr 24 22:27:35 <unix_kid> :/
  485. Apr 24 22:27:37 <unix_kid> I am radical!
  486. Apr 24 22:27:38 <Fafnirsage> baby steps
  487. Apr 24 22:27:58 <EdEnlightenU> I liked your logo but I think it needs to be a lot simpler
  488. Apr 24 22:28:02 <NotGoodBro> It's ok to be radical within the party, but it's not ok for the party itself to be radical
  489. Apr 24 22:28:06 <Fafnirsage> ^
  490. Apr 24 22:28:10 <unix_kid> I disagree
  491. Apr 24 22:28:13 <unix_kid> Transparency is key
  492. Apr 24 22:28:18 <Fafnirsage> I think we are diagressing
  493. Apr 24 22:28:21 <Fafnirsage> digressing
  494. Apr 24 22:28:22 <Fafnirsage> w/e
  495. Apr 24 22:28:44 <Fafnirsage> Are there any point son the platform we want to discuss...?
  496. Apr 24 22:28:48 <NotGoodBro> But not everyone is radical is what im saying. All parties have them, but the party's are not them
  497. Apr 24 22:28:50 <Fafnirsage> any points on*
  498. Apr 24 22:28:54 * Idkaway (Idkaway@Snoonet-mj1.41s.imkui9.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  499. Apr 24 22:29:00 <Fafnirsage> welcome
  500. Apr 24 22:29:05 <unix_kid> Points on the actual platform?
  501. Apr 24 22:29:08 <NotGoodBro> I could pull my points I made from earlier
  502. Apr 24 22:29:15 <unix_kid> Well..
  503. Apr 24 22:29:18 <unix_kid> I agree with all of the points.
  504. Apr 24 22:29:28 <unix_kid> I just think it doesn't go far enough, but, I agree with all of the points as stated
  505. Apr 24 22:30:06 <NotGoodBro> I made a point about not discussing abortion on the platform
  506. Apr 24 22:30:10 <Fafnirsage> As environment is a key value, I think we should be a little bit more specific on type of clean energy
  507. Apr 24 22:30:13 <Idkaway> Hey everybody, idk18 here. Sorry I'm late
  508. Apr 24 22:30:18 <unix_kid> As for the nuclear waste though
  509. Apr 24 22:30:24 <unix_kid> I do have a reference we could go by
  510. Apr 24 22:30:25 <NotGoodBro> Hey idk
  511. Apr 24 22:30:31 <Fafnirsage> Abortion and LGBT issues I think should be left out
  512. Apr 24 22:30:34 <unix_kid> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repository
  513. Apr 24 22:30:37 <Fafnirsage> why? Because the country is already solving them
  514. Apr 24 22:30:50 <Fafnirsage> We don't need to saturate the insanity more, its already being fixed, ya know?
  515. Apr 24 22:30:51 <unix_kid> Require every future nuclear reactor to have reserved space in a repository
  516. Apr 24 22:30:56 <Rith> (I'm here! I joined earlier and had to afk for a minute)
  517. Apr 24 22:31:00 <unix_kid> I also disagree on leaving them out
  518. Apr 24 22:31:14 <Fafnirsage> Don't tread into waters we don't have to. By the time we get big they might not even be a hot button social issue
  519. Apr 24 22:31:18 <unix_kid> They are quite relevant
  520. Apr 24 22:31:18 <Rith> Futurist stance on lgbtq(i?) should include every possible rendition imo
  521. Apr 24 22:31:24 <unix_kid> Indeed
  522. Apr 24 22:31:30 <Fafnirsage> I agree that they should be included
  523. Apr 24 22:31:31 <NotGoodBro> That's what voters are most interested in when looking at parties currently
  524. Apr 24 22:31:32 <unix_kid> We don't want to be misquoted
  525. Apr 24 22:31:38 <Fafnirsage> Currently
  526. Apr 24 22:31:40 <unix_kid> One of us says "GAYS SUCK"
  527. Apr 24 22:31:42 <unix_kid> And we're screwed
  528. Apr 24 22:31:47 <Fafnirsage> I mean
  529. Apr 24 22:31:53 <Fafnirsage> we shouldnt make it our flag idea
  530. Apr 24 22:31:55 <Rith> It identifies futurists with the progressive electorate and makes us much more identifiable.
  531. Apr 24 22:31:56 <unix_kid> Which is why we should have a platform that covers all of the basis
  532. Apr 24 22:31:59 <Fafnirsage> don't make it a focus
  533. Apr 24 22:32:16 <unix_kid> Look at the GOP or Democratic platform
  534. Apr 24 22:32:19 <Idkaway> im on my mobile right now which makes the chat impossible to follow. Can someone put the log in a paste and ok it to me on reddit?
  535. Apr 24 22:32:20 <unix_kid> They're at least 60+ pages
  536. Apr 24 22:32:31 <NotGoodBro> And it appeals to young voters who 90% agree should have freedom of marriage
  537. Apr 24 22:32:38 <Fafnirsage> I agree
  538. Apr 24 22:32:50 <Fafnirsage> Okay I'll rescind my statement
  539. Apr 24 22:33:00 * Idkaway has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
  540. Apr 24 22:33:16 <Fafnirsage> Ima send idk18 the stuff
  541. Apr 24 22:33:23 <Rith> I raised a point on the post about education, and how I believe it should be stressed much stronger than is apparent.
  542. Apr 24 22:33:40 * Idk-mobile (Idk-mobile@Snoonet-mj1.41s.imkui9.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  543. Apr 24 22:33:43 <unix_kid> Another issue is labor
  544. Apr 24 22:33:48 <Fafnirsage> I thought about that too, Rith
  545. Apr 24 22:33:49 <NotGoodBro> I saw your post and I agree completely
  546. Apr 24 22:33:54 <unix_kid> Right now labor = money
  547. Apr 24 22:34:00 <unix_kid> Both should be done away with
  548. Apr 24 22:34:03 <EdEnlightenU> I agree Education is incredibly important
  549. Apr 24 22:34:10 <kitzuni> ^^
  550. Apr 24 22:34:22 <Rith> Eliminating labor and money imo is too far ahead in the future to focus on right now.
  551. Apr 24 22:34:28 <EdEnlightenU> I agree
  552. Apr 24 22:34:33 <NotGoodBro> We are promoting a Universal Basic Income, unix. Right now that's the best be can do towards that
  553. Apr 24 22:34:36 <EdEnlightenU> Way too radical
  554. Apr 24 22:34:41 <Rith> Our country has succeeded in many ways very strongly in the system we have now, we just need to use it to our advantage.
  555. Apr 24 22:34:42 <Fafnirsage> JK I can't format the text log
  556. Apr 24 22:34:48 <Idk-mobile> Did Xenophon or dru ever join?
  557. Apr 24 22:34:59 <NotGoodBro> Don't think so
  558. Apr 24 22:35:09 <Idk-mobile> dont worry about the formatting faf, paste it raw
  559. Apr 24 22:35:12 <unix_kid> A UBI is the first step clearly
  560. Apr 24 22:35:20 <unix_kid> It is part of the roadmap
  561. Apr 24 22:35:32 <NotGoodBro> Which makes me sad. I'll keep track of ideas given here to present to Xeno
  562. Apr 24 22:35:38 <unix_kid> However efforts should be made _NOW_ to start the process of eliminating labor
  563. Apr 24 22:35:45 <Houshalter> i got the logs
  564. Apr 24 22:35:46 <Houshalter> just a sec
  565. Apr 24 22:35:48 <unix_kid> Now, this may sound like a crazy idea: but the platform should aim for 100% unemployment
  566. Apr 24 22:35:51 <Rith> There is no need to eliminate labor.
  567. Apr 24 22:35:55 <unix_kid> :/ Yes there is
  568. Apr 24 22:35:57 <Rith> It will come anyway, with technology
  569. Apr 24 22:36:03 <unix_kid> It is an evil, promotes a slave:master relationship
  570. Apr 24 22:36:08 <Rith> I misspoke, I mean for us to make it happen intentionally.
  571. Apr 24 22:36:09 <Idk-mobile> thanks houshalter
  572. Apr 24 22:36:13 <Fafnirsage> SENDING
  573. Apr 24 22:36:19 <Idk-mobile> once I get home, I can participate for real
  574. Apr 24 22:36:20 <EdEnlightenU> you wouldn't be able to eat if nobody worked
  575. Apr 24 22:36:22 <Rith> You're talking about automation?
  576. Apr 24 22:36:27 <unix_kid> Yes Rith
  577. Apr 24 22:36:29 <unix_kid> Automation of every possible task
  578. Apr 24 22:36:32 <Rith> That's not true, we can automate food production.
  579. Apr 24 22:36:42 <unix_kid> Food production is one of the simplest I can imagine
  580. Apr 24 22:36:44 <Rith> I'm in complete agreement, but I think the stance is too radical to identify with anyone right now.
  581. Apr 24 22:36:51 <unix_kid> Very repetitive
  582. Apr 24 22:37:14 <Fafnirsage> Okay unix_kid, you need to tone yourself
  583. Apr 24 22:37:15 <kitzuni> Promoting/creating jobs in other sectors than labor should probably be a priority before getting rid of it
  584. Apr 24 22:37:20 <Fafnirsage> you got a lot of ideas
  585. Apr 24 22:37:21 <Rith> Well, automation is happening right now, it's lucrative. Political powers don't need to invest their resources in things that already have momentum.
  586. Apr 24 22:37:24 <unix_kid> Tone?
  587. Apr 24 22:37:24 <NotGoodBro> So are we. We all agree here that automation is the future of labor, we are presenting ideas that combat this structural unemployment during the transition.
  588. Apr 24 22:37:33 <Fafnirsage> harness them and tame them
  589. Apr 24 22:37:38 <unix_kid> That's reactionary :/
  590. Apr 24 22:38:08 <Houshalter> Idkaway: http://pastebin.com/VjT9rbKq Log
  591. Apr 24 22:38:14 <Fafnirsage> Advancements in AI are coming faster than we think, but some things like food production are not as developed or as easy as you think
  592. Apr 24 22:38:34 <Fafnirsage> Self-driving cars are at the moment the most massive thing that can shake employment
  593. Apr 24 22:38:37 <EdEnlightenU> The way capitalism is set up promotes automation at every level no?
  594. Apr 24 22:38:47 <unix_kid> Not exactly. But it'll change
  595. Apr 24 22:38:48 <Idk-mobile> Thanks houshalter
  596. Apr 24 22:38:55 <Fafnirsage> Yes, with the belief that other jobs can be created
  597. Apr 24 22:39:01 <Fafnirsage> to fill the automation
  598. Apr 24 22:39:07 <unix_kid> Right now it's a balancing act between what's cheaper, the robot or the human
  599. Apr 24 22:39:17 <unix_kid> But soon we will reach a level where the robot will be cheaper in every aspect
  600. Apr 24 22:39:40 <Fafnirsage> The thing is, entire skill-sets are going to be destroyed. Work is not going to be a necessity.
  601. Apr 24 22:39:46 <EdEnlightenU> Isn't this why one of our core beliefs is UBI
  602. Apr 24 22:39:47 <unix_kid> Agreed
  603. Apr 24 22:39:53 <NotGoodBro> Yes
  604. Apr 24 22:40:05 <NotGoodBro> I pointed this out a couple times now :P
  605. Apr 24 22:40:06 <Fafnirsage> UBI is like the heart of this right?
  606. Apr 24 22:40:06 <unix_kid> Which is why we should make it clear that " Work is not going to be a necessity."
  607. Apr 24 22:40:11 <unix_kid> That is not radical
  608. Apr 24 22:40:17 <unix_kid> :)
  609. Apr 24 22:40:33 <unix_kid> And yes that's the reason why UBI is at the heart
  610. Apr 24 22:40:41 <NotGoodBro> That sounds to unpleasant right now though
  611. Apr 24 22:40:42 <EdEnlightenU> UBI and advancements in science and tech are at the heart
  612. Apr 24 22:40:49 <unix_kid> Jobs WON'T come back
  613. Apr 24 22:40:53 <unix_kid> In service skillsets at least
  614. Apr 24 22:41:08 <Fafnirsage> We need to balance between sounding like the world is ending and being all optimistic
  615. Apr 24 22:41:09 <unix_kid> They'll be wiped from existence, and UBI will nullify the effect of such
  616. Apr 24 22:41:20 <unix_kid> That I can agree with Fafnirsage
  617. Apr 24 22:41:22 <NotGoodBro> Right. Which is why we should be promoting education that leads to rational and creative thinkers
  618. Apr 24 22:41:30 <unix_kid> We don't want to sound like the "End of the World" party :P
  619. Apr 24 22:41:35 <kitzuni> I think that research and creating something "new and innovative" should be something a lot more employable, eventually, knowledge becomes it's own form of currency.....in a way.
  620. Apr 24 22:41:42 <Fafnirsage> Exactly.
  621. Apr 24 22:41:49 <Fafnirsage> We should strive to create
  622. Apr 24 22:41:54 <unix_kid> I also agree
  623. Apr 24 22:41:59 <unix_kid> Ideas = Capital
  624. Apr 24 22:42:00 <Fafnirsage> AI at the moment, can copy, but it cannot create
  625. Apr 24 22:42:17 <Fafnirsage> creation is something that still is a human-only process
  626. Apr 24 22:42:18 <NotGoodBro> This is also why education reform, like kitz said, should be a more pressing topic for us
  627. Apr 24 22:42:26 <Fafnirsage> ^
  628. Apr 24 22:42:29 <unix_kid> Off topic but look into genetic algorithms Fafnirsage :) Think you'll enjoy them
  629. Apr 24 22:42:30 <EdEnlightenU> I agree
  630. Apr 24 22:42:40 <Fafnirsage> Heh, alright
  631. Apr 24 22:42:52 <unix_kid> Question regarding education reform
  632. Apr 24 22:43:00 <Fafnirsage> Do we have any thoughts on education reform? We are all young and in the system it seems
  633. Apr 24 22:43:02 <unix_kid> In what scope are we discussing?
  634. Apr 24 22:43:11 <unix_kid> Accessibility, testing, or what?
  635. Apr 24 22:43:13 <unix_kid> Funding?
  636. Apr 24 22:43:18 <unix_kid> There's so much to discuss
  637. Apr 24 22:43:24 <Rith> I think we should clarify where we're coming from. The perspective on education heavily depends on how old you are and what system you're in.
  638. Apr 24 22:43:32 <Fafnirsage> Yes,
  639. Apr 24 22:43:40 <Rith> Maybe a post with info on who is who that is static, on the futuristboard or something.
  640. Apr 24 22:43:47 <Houshalter> seriously improved online education
  641. Apr 24 22:43:49 <unix_kid> Education is an investment in society, that's one of our axioms, no?
  642. Apr 24 22:43:51 <Rith> Because my opinions are vastly different htan my professors.
  643. Apr 24 22:44:02 <Fafnirsage> This ties into my demographics question
  644. Apr 24 22:44:17 <EdEnlightenU> how would we improve online education?
  645. Apr 24 22:44:22 <Fafnirsage> We are all young, and we are all similar in views, so we don't have a large variety of vision in this
  646. Apr 24 22:44:29 <kitzuni> Speaking as a student, I think the main problem with education _right now_ isn't exactly lack of funding, or lack of focus, atleast, in my region, it's the students.
  647. Apr 24 22:44:38 <NotGoodBro> I believe we are all <30 for sure
  648. Apr 24 22:44:49 <Rith> We improve online education by using it as the main source of lecture in mainstream universities, and transitioning our professors from lecturers to advisors, tutors and researchers.
  649. Apr 24 22:45:02 <EdEnlightenU> Should the gov enforce this?
  650. Apr 24 22:45:07 <Idk-mobile> Kitzuni, disagree
  651. Apr 24 22:45:25 <Rith> I completely disagree, the students are taught how to be students.
  652. Apr 24 22:45:36 <NotGoodBro> I would say lack of interest in education stems from teachers
  653. Apr 24 22:45:40 <Fafnirsage> ^
  654. Apr 24 22:45:47 <Houshalter> we should probably study past political movements and see what the did right or wrong
  655. Apr 24 22:45:47 <Idk-mobile> Student debt, underpaid staff/faculty
  656. Apr 24 22:45:48 <Rith> I went through high school being rather successful, then I hit college and fail my first challenging course right off the bat.
  657. Apr 24 22:45:56 <EdEnlightenU> I think school is focused on ranking students through tests rather than promoting creative abilities
  658. Apr 24 22:45:56 <Fafnirsage> We can't look to the past
  659. Apr 24 22:46:06 <Fafnirsage> The internet is too much of a variable
  660. Apr 24 22:46:17 <Rith> It's public school teachers that imo are the heart of the problem. They are underpaid and underappreciated, and there is no incentive to be an amazing inspiring teacher other than your own morals.
  661. Apr 24 22:46:19 <Rith> And that isn't enough.
  662. Apr 24 22:46:30 <kitzuni> Well, let me rephrase a bit, it's a lack of emphasis on why education is important by teachers and other "adult" figures, causing students to have a lack of motivation to achieve to change or create something.
  663. Apr 24 22:46:37 <unix_kid> Another one of my concerns is the proliferation of private universities that are no more than diploma mills, giving away a shoddy education while buring students in debt. These institutions should be banned.
  664. Apr 24 22:46:42 <EdEnlightenU> Yea I think teachers should be given a serious pay bump
  665. Apr 24 22:46:59 <unix_kid> I also second the pay bump
  666. Apr 24 22:47:01 <NotGoodBro> Right. This is the main problem. No genius biologist is going to take a $50k paycut to go teach highschool students
  667. Apr 24 22:47:04 <Fafnirsage> I am extremely biased in the public-education department, I come from an affluent area with massive stem involvement and amazing teachers. One of the best public schools so...no experience.
  668. Apr 24 22:47:05 <unix_kid> Teaching is one of the most important (and in my opinion, creative) professions out there
  669. Apr 24 22:47:11 <kitzuni> I agree
  670. Apr 24 22:47:12 <Rith> It's one of my dreams to become successful enough in business to double the pay of one whole city's school teachers, to show other corporations what their responsibilities to the country are.
  671. Apr 24 22:47:17 <Fafnirsage> We should treat teaching as a valued profession
  672. Apr 24 22:47:23 <Fafnirsage> on the same level as doctors
  673. Apr 24 22:47:24 <Houshalter> genius biologists shouldn't be teaching highschool students..
  674. Apr 24 22:47:30 <Rith> Teaching public school atm is seriously looked down upon by society.
  675. Apr 24 22:47:35 <unix_kid> Yes, agreed Fafnirsage
  676. Apr 24 22:47:35 <Fafnirsage> They should, after they have made their discoveries
  677. Apr 24 22:47:47 <Rith> And the requirements are so low, 99% of the teachers are complete idiots in the first place. Even in the field they're teaching.
  678. Apr 24 22:47:48 <Idk-mobile> if we're talking about primary school, stop funding through property taxes
  679. Apr 24 22:47:49 <Fafnirsage> by western society
  680. Apr 24 22:47:57 <EdEnlightenU> I also feel we should eliminate tenure
  681. Apr 24 22:47:58 <Fafnirsage> I agree with idk-mobile
  682. Apr 24 22:48:01 <unix_kid> We also need to raise the bar on teaching standards
  683. Apr 24 22:48:04 <Rith> With you there, Ed
  684. Apr 24 22:48:08 <Fafnirsage> Same
  685. Apr 24 22:48:10 <NotGoodBro> "eliminate tenure"
  686. Apr 24 22:48:11 <unix_kid> And yes property tax funding is quite cyclical
  687. Apr 24 22:48:14 <NotGoodBro> yes
  688. Apr 24 22:48:17 <Rith> But the debate now lies in how do we quantize teaching ability?
  689. Apr 24 22:48:23 <Idk-mobile> That way ghetto schools serve as a way out, rather than an intro to prison
  690. Apr 24 22:48:25 <Rith> Standardized tests? When? On what material?
  691. Apr 24 22:48:25 <Fafnirsage> That is the question
  692. Apr 24 22:48:37 <unix_kid> If there are standardized tests
  693. Apr 24 22:48:40 <Fafnirsage> I just took various standardized tests
  694. Apr 24 22:48:40 <EdEnlightenU> Teachers should be rated by students
  695. Apr 24 22:48:43 <Fafnirsage> they test nothig
  696. Apr 24 22:48:43 <Rith> That's the question holding our government back right now in improving our schools, both reps and dems agree on this one.
  697. Apr 24 22:48:43 <unix_kid> They should be administered by the state
  698. Apr 24 22:48:44 <Fafnirsage> nothing*
  699. Apr 24 22:48:50 <unix_kid> And not even touched by ETS
  700. Apr 24 22:48:53 <unix_kid> the SAT is a joke
  701. Apr 24 22:48:53 <EdEnlightenU> We have all had horrible teachers and amazing teachers
  702. Apr 24 22:49:03 <kitzuni> Teachers being rated by students can be a very dangerous thing though ;p
  703. Apr 24 22:49:03 <Fafnirsage> I think that might be dangerous
  704. Apr 24 22:49:07 <Fafnirsage> exactly
  705. Apr 24 22:49:14 <Idk-mobile> i disagree with a lot that's been said, almost to my computer
  706. Apr 24 22:49:16 <unix_kid> agreed kitzuni
  707. Apr 24 22:49:22 <kitzuni> I think on some points, it could be helpful, but, there's a lot of bias that can go into it.
  708. Apr 24 22:49:24 <Fafnirsage> Kids are volatile, a good teacher that pissed off one class....
  709. Apr 24 22:49:34 <Rith> Well, what's the point of teaching? To prepare for the next level. What about gauging past teachers by performance in the next level?
  710. Apr 24 22:49:47 <Rith> Everything is so cumulative, at least the sciences, that method imo would be effective.
  711. Apr 24 22:50:07 <Idk-mobile> no!
  712. Apr 24 22:50:08 <kitzuni> I think better job interviews for teachers could be a start, they would have to show that they're passionate about their job, and knowledgable/interested in their subject of teaching
  713. Apr 24 22:50:14 <unix_kid> My proposal: We keep track of a class's coursework aligned with certain skills that a student should master by the end of the school year. We also administer, say, monthly online tests to keep track of progress
  714. Apr 24 22:50:18 <Fafnirsage> And consistently test them for passion
  715. Apr 24 22:50:28 <Idk-mobile> the pointing of teaching and learning should not be to propel students to 'the next level'
  716. Apr 24 22:50:29 <unix_kid> That way the teacher, and anyone overseeing it (the public for example) can see where exactly the problem lies
  717. Apr 24 22:50:30 <Houshalter> what about have professionals sit in the classroom and interview the students to get a good assesment of the teacher. It's not like teaching ability is some unmeasurable quantity, it's just that it can't be optimized with standardized tests alone
  718. Apr 24 22:50:41 <Fafnirsage> ^
  719. Apr 24 22:50:42 <EdEnlightenU> Testing is a horrible way to facilitate learning
  720. Apr 24 22:50:48 <unix_kid> Well
  721. Apr 24 22:50:49 <Fafnirsage> Testing HARMS learning
  722. Apr 24 22:50:52 <EdEnlightenU> all you do is get really good at taking tests
  723. Apr 24 22:50:53 <unix_kid> In my school the pay is performance based
  724. Apr 24 22:50:58 <Fafnirsage> We need to integrate professionals into education
  725. Apr 24 22:51:03 <EdEnlightenU> cramming is not learning
  726. Apr 24 22:51:09 <EdEnlightenU> memorizing is not understanding
  727. Apr 24 22:51:11 <unix_kid> It is a mix of testing scores and two random classroom evaluations
  728. Apr 24 22:51:14 <Rith> Oh... what about just recording each class? It would probably improve teaching just like it improves cops' behavior.
  729. Apr 24 22:51:15 <kitzuni> My school occasionally does a similar thing, but the sit ins only last for about 5 minutes
  730. Apr 24 22:51:18 <Fafnirsage> I agree completely ed
  731. Apr 24 22:51:32 <unix_kid> The principal comes in and grades the instructor on a rubric, which determines their pay
  732. Apr 24 22:51:46 <Houshalter> recording would be good
  733. Apr 24 22:51:51 <unix_kid> It is done around twice yearly
  734. Apr 24 22:51:52 <Houshalter> then select a random day and review it
  735. Apr 24 22:51:54 <EdEnlightenU> How can we guage a teacher other than how good students do on tests?
  736. Apr 24 22:52:07 <Rith> ^
  737. Apr 24 22:52:08 <unix_kid> We do it that AND the evaluations, EdEnlightenU
  738. Apr 24 22:52:15 <Fafnirsage> That is the million dollar question
  739. Apr 24 22:52:18 <unix_kid> Tests do help but they're not the only measure
  740. Apr 24 22:52:22 <unix_kid> We should consider it holistically
  741. Apr 24 22:52:27 <Fafnirsage> This is hard about teaching
  742. Apr 24 22:52:34 <unix_kid> Teaching is a hard job :/
  743. Apr 24 22:52:34 <Rith> Put forth another measure of how well they teach then?
  744. Apr 24 22:52:34 <Fafnirsage> how do you know what is going on inside a child's brain?
  745. Apr 24 22:52:35 <NotGoodBro> You cant gauge it by test. How do you compare a teacher that teachers honors classes and one that teaches regular classes?
  746. Apr 24 22:52:42 * unix_kid respects teachers, but does not want to be one
  747. Apr 24 22:52:43 <Fafnirsage> ^
  748. Apr 24 22:52:47 <Rith> You don't.
  749. Apr 24 22:52:47 <unix_kid> Easy
  750. Apr 24 22:52:49 <EdEnlightenU> What about project based learning
  751. Apr 24 22:52:50 <unix_kid> We place everyone in honors
  752. Apr 24 22:52:51 <unix_kid> xD
  753. Apr 24 22:52:55 <Fafnirsage> Exactly
  754. Apr 24 22:52:55 <Rith> Don't compare teachers between different classes.
  755. Apr 24 22:53:01 <EdEnlightenU> where students get involved in helping build things for society
  756. Apr 24 22:53:03 <unix_kid> Oh!
  757. Apr 24 22:53:04 <unix_kid> Idea.
  758. Apr 24 22:53:05 <Fafnirsage> Projects geared towards innovation
  759. Apr 24 22:53:05 <Fafnirsage> YES
  760. Apr 24 22:53:07 <EdEnlightenU> learning by doing
  761. Apr 24 22:53:08 <Rith> That's why I proposed gauging teachers on how well their students do in the next level.
  762. Apr 24 22:53:14 <unix_kid> Different tracks.
  763. Apr 24 22:53:16 <kitzuni> I agree Ed
  764. Apr 24 22:53:21 <unix_kid> Starting in middle school
  765. Apr 24 22:53:23 <Fafnirsage> I do not think it should be next level, but at that time
  766. Apr 24 22:53:26 <Rith> Because a teacher could get a whole slew of terribly prepared students.
  767. Apr 24 22:53:28 <unix_kid> Pick whether you want a mathematics track or a liberal arts track
  768. Apr 24 22:53:29 <unix_kid> :)
  769. Apr 24 22:53:33 <NotGoodBro> "do in the next level." Elaborate?
  770. Apr 24 22:53:38 <Rith> And then graded down for their bad scores, but not having it be their fault.
  771. Apr 24 22:53:42 <EdEnlightenU> Learning happens when you're passionate about something
  772. Apr 24 22:53:47 <EdEnlightenU> then it becomes easy to learn
  773. Apr 24 22:53:52 <EdEnlightenU> if you want to and are interested
  774. Apr 24 22:53:54 <Fafnirsage> Eh, learning doesn't need passion
  775. Apr 24 22:53:58 <unix_kid> If I could have programming courses 24/7 I would
  776. Apr 24 22:53:58 <unix_kid> :/
  777. Apr 24 22:54:03 <unix_kid> It doesn't needit
  778. Apr 24 22:54:04 <unix_kid> it*
  779. Apr 24 22:54:08 <Fafnirsage> it just requires focus
  780. Apr 24 22:54:11 <unix_kid> but I learn so much more when I am passionate
  781. Apr 24 22:54:11 <Fafnirsage> and care
  782. Apr 24 22:54:16 <Fafnirsage> passion helps
  783. Apr 24 22:54:17 <Rith> Scenario: Two teachers of equal capability are graded on their students' tests. One teacher has a ton of failures and the other has a ton of great grades. The reason is because the students come in with a certain level of preparedness.
  784. Apr 24 22:54:21 <unix_kid> Yeah and that focus is nonexistent without hte passion
  785. Apr 24 22:54:22 <Fafnirsage> but it is not a necessary requirement
  786. Apr 24 22:54:23 <unix_kid> the*
  787. Apr 24 22:54:34 <Fafnirsage> Rith, I agree that is a problem
  788. Apr 24 22:54:43 <Fafnirsage> like what you are getting at
  789. Apr 24 22:54:53 <Rith> So I propose at least one aspect of the capability of a teacher to be how well their students perform in the next level.
  790. Apr 24 22:54:57 <EdEnlightenU> devils advocate would say the students would average out
  791. Apr 24 22:55:05 <Rith> Not in a sample size of 20
  792. Apr 24 22:55:06 <NotGoodBro> I like that Rith
  793. Apr 24 22:55:08 <EdEnlightenU> both teachers would have an equal number of prepared and unprepared students
  794. Apr 24 22:55:09 <Fafnirsage> Yes
  795. Apr 24 22:55:13 <Fafnirsage> Sample size is too small
  796. Apr 24 22:55:21 <Fafnirsage> the variables are too many in that small set
  797. Apr 24 22:55:29 * mind_is_blanking (mind_is_bla@Snoonet-00i.5v8.orff66.IP) has joined #futuristparty
  798. Apr 24 22:55:33 <Fafnirsage> Welcome
  799. Apr 24 22:55:34 <NotGoodBro> Welcome
  800. Apr 24 22:55:47 <Rith> Sample size of 40, probably. But good classrooms are small classrooms, and our sights should be set to small, almost tutor-like environments.
  801. Apr 24 22:55:53 <Rith> Welcome!
  802. Apr 24 22:55:56 * idk18 (jake@user/idk18) has joined #futuristparty
  803. Apr 24 22:55:56 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to idk18
  804. Apr 24 22:56:02 <mind_is_blanking> Hello, thank you
  805. Apr 24 22:56:05 * Idk-mobile has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client)
  806. Apr 24 22:56:06 <EdEnlightenU> Hey
  807. Apr 24 22:56:08 <idk18> hey everybody, sorry I'm late
  808. Apr 24 22:56:09 <Fafnirsage> Smaller class rooms would be better
  809. Apr 24 22:56:13 <idk18> can someone paste the log again for me?
  810. Apr 24 22:56:14 <Fafnirsage> more 1:1 interaction
  811. Apr 24 22:56:20 <NotGoodBro> That requires more teachers
  812. Apr 24 22:56:24 <kitzuni> I disagree with that a bit
  813. Apr 24 22:56:31 <EdEnlightenU> 1:1 would be a little insane
  814. Apr 24 22:56:33 <Fafnirsage> Yes the crux of the issue
  815. Apr 24 22:56:37 <Fafnirsage> I meant like
  816. Apr 24 22:56:39 <Rith> So I propose this: Teachers should be paid much greater, and it should be scaled based on performance which is graded by two things: 1. Performance of past students in future courses and 2. Performance of current students in current courses.
  817. Apr 24 22:56:41 <EdEnlightenU> 10:1 would be an incredible improvement
  818. Apr 24 22:56:41 <Fafnirsage> in a class room of 15
  819. Apr 24 22:56:48 <Fafnirsage> you get to have more alone time with a teacher
  820. Apr 24 22:56:51 <Fafnirsage> instead of with 30
  821. Apr 24 22:56:52 <Rith> Simple as that, weight it like you want, but I believe that's the most efficient solution.
  822. Apr 24 22:56:55 <Fafnirsage> you know?
  823. Apr 24 22:56:59 <kitzuni> In my personal experience, I've always learnt better in a bigger classroom, I think something like that is geared more towards student preference
  824. Apr 24 22:57:01 <Fafnirsage> it appears more individual
  825. Apr 24 22:57:17 <Rith> Bigger classrooms will be replaced by video lectures soon though (imo)
  826. Apr 24 22:57:17 <Houshalter> Perhaps we shouldn't be trying to come up with new solutions to complicated, well researched issues? Is there any expert consensus on this?
  827. Apr 24 22:57:20 <EdEnlightenU> I see what you
  828. Apr 24 22:57:21 <EdEnlightenU> re saying
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