[13:07] * @Sniper stares at strazh
[13:08] <@Sniper> Hey mate, do you play the game?
[13:09] <strazh> yes, frequently
[13:09] <strazh> kind of frustrating i can't play it on linux, but my windows computers all run it fine
[13:09] <@Sniper> What's with the hate mongering?
[13:10] <strazh> i dont really consider pointing out flaws in what's said hate mongering
[13:10] <@Sniper> Someone else on the team is working on linux support right now, and we're dealing with a compiler issue with the engine at the moment.
[13:10] * Nero|tablet (~nero@gamesurge-5e7d1783.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) Quit (Ping timeout)
[13:10] <strazh> yes, i read that on the official forums
[13:10] <@Sniper> I think you're more or less a troll.
[13:11] <strazh> You're entitled to your opinion.
[13:12] <@Sniper> You've listened to one side of the story, and finalized your opinion and decided to lash out from it. Pretty fair person you are!
[13:12] <@Sniper> Every team out there has arguments.
[13:13] <MirroR> i have seen this scenario before, someone says something about the mod that isnt right then he is marked as a troll
[13:13] <strazh> Historically I don't believe in fairness, fairness was explained to me as equal distribution of limited resources; usually when they belong to me.
[13:14] <@duggles> nice non-sequitor
[13:15] <strazh> Probably more important things to do than heckle me on IRC, I personally would focus on PR or the cause of disagreements.
[13:15] <@Dynamite> are there game issues with the linux client? I recall only the engine being tricky to clean up
[13:16] <@duggles> Dynamite: vgui2 is misbehaving, fonts are incorrect, and the sound system is unloading improperly
[13:16] <@duggles> there may be other problems but the vgui one is blocking me from properly testing
[13:17] <@Sniper> strazh: Not heckling - I just don't believe you're a member of the community.
[13:17] <@Sniper> If you're here to stir things up, you're not welcome.
[13:17] <@Dynamite> duggles, what is the problem with vgui?
[13:18] <strazh> You're also entitled to that opinion, though I can't really expect you to keep track of my name collection.
[13:18] <@Sniper> If you're here to talk about Sven Co-op, feel free to stay.
[13:18] <@duggles> Dynamite: not sure, seems to segfault on startup
[13:19] <@duggles> probably skmething to do with fonts
[13:19] <@duggles> font are poop :(
[13:19] <@Dynamite> are you able to debug it?
[13:20] <@duggles> adam's been helping me
[13:20] <@duggles> but he's at work now
[13:20] <strazh> It is good to see that the linux client is being worked on, it's the feature I'm looking forward most to besides the svc_bad fix.
[13:20] <@duggles> and the drama over the weekend distracted us
[13:20] <@Dynamite> there was drama?! :D
[13:20] <@duggles> ikr
[13:21] <@Sniper> We've known about the SVC_BAD problem for quite a while. I worked with Sam to find a fix for it.
[13:22] <@Sniper> There were some size issues in the engine's networking of messages, should be hopefully fixed.
[13:22] <@Sniper> If it's not fixed we'll have to dig deeper.
[13:22] <strazh> Sounds good.
[13:24] <@Sniper> http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/43812-Next-Engine-Game-Update-ETA-and-General-News?p=520115&viewfull=1#post520115
[13:24] <@Sniper> Fixed the prime cause of svc_bad drops. (Hopefully.)
[13:24] <@Sniper> Key word in that sentence is hopefully.
[13:25] <@Dynamite> how long is solo banned for?
[13:25] <@Sniper> The other issue is metamod might also cause a similar problem.
[13:25] <MirroR> i wanna know that too
[13:27] <+Misfire> as a note: I've definitely experienced svc_bad on non-metamod - sometimes more so than on metamod
[13:27] <strazh> I don't think banning solo accomplishes much, most of the hotter roasting comments arn't even his.
[13:27] <@Sniper> Yep that's understood - I'm just stating that some metamod plugins could cause the issue.
[13:27] <@Sniper> (i.e. corrupted data)
[13:29] <@Sniper> Contrary from the bullshit posted in random areas, we're not trying to kill off metamod
[13:30] <@Sniper> There was a joke a long time ago among the team that we should crash the game if SCXPM was being used
[13:30] <@Sniper> (Silencer is a team member)
[13:31] <@Sniper> We've supported metamod throughout the game's history though, compiling custom versions and sending out code headers from the game dlls to developers
[13:31] <@Sniper> There was fear that if we were to make game breaking changes in the engine, metamod might no longer work.
[13:32] <@Sniper> That's why the angelscript-based server plugin functionality was put together
[13:32] <strazh> A lot of the major servers depend on metamod, so that seems like a valid concern.
[13:32] <@Sniper> angelscript probably has, in some ways, more power than metamod (minus dll files)
[13:33] <@Sniper> The goal was to have numerous svencoop game hooks exposed to the angelscript plugins, to make things a bit easier to get tasks accomplished.
[13:34] <@Sniper> Though angelscript's primary purpose is to provide a mini HLSDK on the mapper level.
[13:35] <strazh> I don't know how important that would be, few people remaining in the community can make maps; and the ones that can are really talented.
[13:36] <@Sniper> There are plenty of people in the community that can create levels. The game is now free and always available, so that's not stopping new people from learning.
[13:36] <strazh> Rushing low size patches that fix individual problems on a biweekly (week a - test, week b - release or revise) might alleviate some of the tension in the community.
[13:37] <@Sniper> Our documentation is shit though, that's what I'm spending my time on these days.
[13:38] <@Sniper> That's a shared opinion on the team. We definitely want to release updates more frequently.
[13:38] <@Deepflame|AFK> As someone who works at a company where a weekly release schedule is a thing, beware :P
[13:38] <@Deepflame|AFK> The deadlines are sufficiently crushing that you start outputting bugs
[13:39] <@Deepflame|AFK> And the community has in turn become quite angry (reasonably so)
[13:39] <@Sniper> Right, that's the other issue.
[13:39] <strazh> Soft deadlines are a good suggestion, since theres no money involved theres no reason to consider hard deadlines
[13:39] <@Sniper> We're aiming for a goal of one release per month, but more than likely it's going to be bi-monthly.
[13:40] <@Dynamite> every other month seems reasonable
[13:40] <@Deepflame|AFK> So one project is now slowly migrating towards a stable and dev branch solution, where stable is basically left untouched and people can deal with the problems there, while dev maintains its weekly march, until it's more-or-less stable worthy
[13:40] <@Sniper> There's a few programmers active, but right now I'm not working on the code base.
[13:40] <@Deepflame|AFK> And the other project is basically not updating right now while we actually work out the appropriate process
[13:40] <@Sniper> My focuses are on the documentation / website.
[13:41] <strazh> Maybe post some 'available positions' for people able to accomplish tasks like working on the code, as frustrating as it is for members of the team to have him around, solo was getting a lot of work done.
[13:41] * Deepflame|AFK is now known as Deepflame
[13:42] <@Sniper> Solo was very vocal about the amount of work he got done.
[13:42] <@Sniper> However, if you can understand where I'm coming from, before Solokiller joined the team we had mega changelogs then too.
[13:42] <strazh> Being vocal about accomplishments helps the community be at ease, people feel like things are actually getting done
[13:42] <@Sniper> Solokiller was a great asset but he's not the only programmer on the team.
[13:43] <+Misfire> we love when shit gets done
[13:43] <strazh> I don't know if I'd prioratize website/documentation when there's large bugs and unsupported devices; but that's just me.
[13:43] <@Sniper> See, the problem with communication is that when there are agreements, people generally don't say anything.
[13:43] <@Deepflame> Poor documentation leads to more bugs
[13:43] <@Sniper> When there are disagreements, then it draws attention and focus.
[13:44] <strazh> I do agree with that too, deepflame
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[13:44] <@Sniper> I can assure you we've had far more many agreements than disagreements. Otherwise Sam wouldn't have been on the team.
[13:44] <@Sniper> Most of our work is currently conducted through our BTS
[13:45] <@Sniper> Tasks are assigned and requests are considered (from other team members, or taken straight from the commmunity) on there.
[13:45] <@Sniper> We do have a system in place, it works pretty well.
[13:46] <@Sniper> Anyway, my focus already is on the website/documentation as I said.
[13:46] <@Sniper> I've put a lot of time into it already, still a lot of work left to do.
[13:46] <strazh> I'd locate someone good at code to work on things there while you handle website/documentation then.
[13:47] <@Sniper> Part of the reason why we're switching to a new website (other than that the current one is a piece of shit from 2001) is that we're dealing with a lot of bot spam.
[13:47] <@Sniper> The new website will be integrated with Steam (there's a bunch of backend programming that has to happen so that avatars, user profile data, etc can get passed through Valve's web api)
[13:50] <@Sniper> Right now the forums have all of china blocked
[13:50] <@Deepflame> xD
[13:50] <@Deepflame> So much distress over a free game :(
[13:51] <@Sniper> Yeah, makes you wonder why we even bother
[13:51] <@Sniper> But, you know, I should kill myself because people on the internet told me to.
[13:52] <@Sniper> </sarcasm>
[13:52] <@Deepflame> Seems reasonable
[13:52] <strazh> dedication to the cause is a good reason to bother, as long as you're looking out for the project
[13:52] <MirroR> what you expect from modern people
[13:52] <+Misfire> its the internet
[13:53] <+Misfire> 13 year olds fuck my mom every night
[13:53] <@Sniper> Now I have to go out to my garage and put a wheel back on my xterra, because I have to get it towed. blargh
[13:53] * @Sniper runs away
[13:53] <strazh> internet society usually tells you to kill yourself on hourly basis
[13:53] <MirroR> how many deaththreats im getting too monthly
[13:53] <MirroR> too many
[13:54] <strazh> I get a lot, also threats of having my accounts seized and ransomed, and worst of all
[13:54] <strazh> insurance and credit card offers
[13:54] <+Misfire> its the new slang of the internet
[13:54] <+Misfire> look at any leafy video
[13:54] <+Misfire> lol
[13:54] <MirroR> best thing was that one lunatic threattened to put some neonazis find me and torture me because he thinks im planning against him
[13:54] <MirroR> internet is full of crazies
[13:54] <strazh> generally "honestly, mate, kill yourself" means "you're a popular guy"
[13:55] <MirroR> most of em just talk cause its easy to say stuff behind nickname
[13:56] <strazh> To be fair, when you don't those threats come to your face; or people recognize you and know who to censor
[13:56] <MirroR> its easy to act big if your face isnt showing
[13:56] <strazh> I have an easier time acting big when my face is on the line :p
[13:57] <@Dynamite> so this guy, right
[13:57] <@Dynamite> cannons me
[13:57] <@Dynamite> but I 2-gated him
[13:57] <@Sniper> BTW - I receive no donation money. No one on the team does.
[13:57] <+Misfire> Dynamite, cheeser?
[13:57] <@Sniper> The donation fund pays for the main website (I have nothing to do with it)
[13:57] <@Dynamite> and then he didnt have minerals right and then I beat him cuz he couldn't make cannons near my base :)
[13:57] <@Dynamite> Misfire, yes, we both cheesed :)
[13:57] <+Misfire> lol
[13:58] <@Dynamite> proxy 2-gate
[13:58] <@Sniper> Donation money was used to pay for broken hard drives in the past, and some software licenses I believe. Otherwise, it's mainly the website draining the funds.
[13:58] <@Sniper> I think I've probably spent a little over $7000 on the forums so far
[13:58] <@Sniper> Not exactly cheap
[13:59] <+Misfire> 7000 on forums
[13:59] <+Misfire> damn
[13:59] <+Misfire> i assume thats over 10 years time
[13:59] <@Sniper> Let me check...
[13:59] <@Sniper> 6 years
[14:00] <@Sniper> about $100 a month
[14:00] <+Misfire> ah i see, adds up quickly
[14:00] <strazh> lot of money, hopefully the new design will reduce costs
[14:00] <@Sniper> The servers have been running since 2010
[14:00] <@Sniper> That's just the hosting cost
[14:01] <@Sniper> I'm looking into switching to SSL, so that'll probably cost more money as well
[14:01] <@Dynamite> use that new TLS stuff?
[14:01] <@Dynamite> let's encrypt. That is suppose to be free
[14:01] <@Sniper> (HTTPS for everyone)
[14:01] <@Sniper> I'm looking into that too, but I think last time I checked it wasn't allowing new registrations
[14:02] <@Sniper> I'm not quite ready for that yet, still planning on finishing the website before I get that stuff together
[14:02] <@Sniper> (I picture that being the last step)
[14:02] <@Dynamite> new forum then too?
[14:02] <@Sniper> The new website is a giant forum
[14:02] <@Sniper> basically
[14:03] <@Dynamite> may I reserve user ID 69?
[14:03] <@Sniper> lels
[14:03] <@Dynamite> =)
[14:09] <strazh> speaking of website, you're up to SEO standards right
[14:16] <@Dynamite> now THAT'S how you cannon :D
[14:16] <@Dynamite> teehee
[14:17] <@Dynamite> I'm a terrible person
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[14:25] <@Sniper> <strazh> speaking of website, you're up to SEO standards right
[14:25] * Pool is now known as Puchi
[14:25] <@Sniper> The current website was created in 2001
[14:26] <@Sniper> It's pretty bad, yep.
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[14:31] <strazh> its a beautiful day outside, i think i might have a cigar
[14:33] <@Sniper> Interesting, everyone thinks I'm banning people
[14:34] <strazh> where
[14:34] <@Sniper> Oh that lovely reddit thread
[14:34] <strazh> reddits pretty extremist, while it has valid points I wouldn't worry too much about it.
[14:35] <strazh> the main focus should be on the product
[14:35] <@Sniper> I'm not taking it too seriously here, because it looks more like a somethingawful post
[14:36] <@Sniper> People seem to think I'm the only team member though... interesting
[14:36] <strazh> You're kind of the 'face' of sven co-op, the big boss.
[14:37] <strazh> Even considering the team as a democracy you're the president to everyone else.
[14:37] <@Sniper> All of this is pretty weird, because he wanted to never talk about the situation in public.
[14:37] <@Sniper> He said he deleted the source code, but he started posting snippets of it in our forums
[14:37] <@Sniper> Adam questioned him about it, and then this all started up
[14:38] <strazh> I wouldn't blame it entirely on solo, the communitys been edgy for a while.
[14:38] <@Sniper> That's my perspective anyway
[14:38] <strazh> Solo's posts helps people diagnose problems and understand them, and while it's frustrating that he'd keep 'team assets' the overall help seems more important
[14:38] <@Sniper> He basically said all of our agreements meant nothing because this isn't a real company
[14:39] <@Sniper> Yes but that should be the team's job, he's no longer on the team
[14:39] <@Sniper> We do make strives to answer questions, and yes, he usually beats us to it.
[14:40] <@Sniper> But we've got to work on the game too.
[14:40] <@Sniper> He didn't want to be on the team, so it's his choice. Just pretty shitty that he's doing this.
[14:41] <@Sniper> http://puu.sh/phXl9/c0b1888b47.jpg
[14:41] <@Sniper> He's definitely not the victim here. He actually just wanted to take over the mod.
[14:41] <strazh> he's providing what many consider to be valuable documentation as a freelance, public viewing of the source would do the same thing
[14:42] <@Sniper> Our source code is closed to public viewing.
[14:42] <@Sniper> We have signed agreements with Valve that we need to maintain.
[14:42] <strazh> Yeah.
[14:43] <@Sniper> Also regarding the DMCA stuff - pretty sure we've got everything out of the game. There might be a few things still in there, but we'll remove them as necessary.
[14:43] <@duggles> well, he had plenty of time to write this documentation whilst he was on the team. there were months where he did nothing to angelscript where he could have been making the docs (or even finishing unfinished angelscript things like database access)
[14:43] <strazh> I'm not going to argue the finer points of NDA but I've seen the HL1 source code
[14:44] <strazh> why complain about free work, even if he isn't on the team if his contributions are helping then I'd praise them
[14:44] <@Sniper> It's our intellectual property, and it's how we operate
[14:45] <@Sniper> He was free to take his source code contributions. He asked if he could use it in another project. No one complained.
[14:46] <strazh> Did you do anything to secure the rights to your intellectual property
[14:46] <@Sniper> I'm assuming cryogenicneuron is cryokeen, or just simply keen
[14:46] <strazh> 100% keen
[14:46] <@Sniper> He was the reason why I joined the team. He made a cool map.
[14:46] <+Misfire> keen was why you joined the team?
[14:46] <@Sniper> I've had no beef with him.
[14:47] <@Sniper> Yep
[14:47] <MirroR> keen uses always cry names
[14:47] <@Sniper> Tunnel was one of my favorite maps (at the time)
[14:47] <+Misfire> ah didn't know
[14:48] <@Sniper> I've actually tried to contact Keen when he was banned from the forums
[14:48] <@Sniper> He usually gets banned from our forums on a regular basis
[14:49] <@Sniper> Sometimes I haven't agreed with the banning, and I tried to talk to him a few times to find out what was going on
[14:49] <MirroR> his real life issues make big contrast what he does online
[14:49] <@Sniper> But he's posted some really terrible stuff lately. I think he has some chemical dependence issues or something.
[14:50] <strazh> He's had issues with chems in the past, and he's outspoken without thinking of his word choice.
[14:50] <@Sniper> He always loves to joke about taking drugs
[14:50] <MirroR> he still has
[14:50] <strazh> dosen't joke about the drugs, he's all srs about that
[14:50] <MirroR> and he isnt quite sane anymore reason i got in big fight with him
[14:51] <@Sniper> I don't usually ban people from the message forums. I usually target spam bots when possible, but I left the forum admins take care of the community. That's what they like doing and they're good at it.
[14:51] <MirroR> bit too harsh sometimes
[14:51] <@Sniper> *let the forum admins
[14:51] <Aurora^> I'd say a person's arguments ought to be judged on their own weight without giving any regard to who it is or what they're smoking
[14:51] <MirroR> yea thats actually true
[14:51] <@Sniper> Right, I like Keen's stuff usually
[14:52] <strazh> Keen manages insight even when he's raving about 5chan.bsp being the greatest
[14:52] <@Sniper> Anyway I've tried to contact him several times, but he doesn't respond. No idea.
[14:54] <@Sniper> His map is still in the mod
[14:54] <@Sniper> It's a pretty good map
[14:54] <strazh> He makes good stuff from time to time, sectore was pretty good
[14:54] <@Sniper> So, anyway, no idea what's going on there, can't help him.
[14:55] <strazh> horsecock_b7 and his recent work wern't his finest moments, but they did help a lot of people get inspiration for 'higher quality' maps with his innovative use of things
[14:55] <MirroR> i dont like him personally anymore but i have to say in past
[14:55] <MirroR> he has done some good maps
[14:55] <MirroR> newest map of his was total nightmare though
[14:55] <MirroR> well few new maps
[14:55] <strazh> yeah i told him his maps starting with 5chan have been trash
[14:56] <strazh> its just a bunch of memes plastered on what could be a good idea; but the good idea isn't finished
[14:56] <MirroR> yea
[14:56] <MirroR> i really hated coldburn too
[14:56] <MirroR> eventhough it had good idea
[14:56] <MirroR> keen's problem with mapping is too that he copy pastes same areas
[14:56] <MirroR> all over again
[14:56] <MirroR> from older maps of his
[14:57] <strazh> i can summarize his recent maps with "really good use of func_vehicle" "unique minigame" "atmosphere"
[14:57] <strazh> I always do like new content, and even then I redo the rooms instead of making a release
[14:57] <strazh> thats why I dont have any maps out
[14:58] <MirroR> i dont have any maps out cause i dont have enough focus or motivation
[14:58] <MirroR> twice tried now i almost did complete one but broke it
[14:58] <strazh> I got a mix of real-life things and server/client side issues in sven that also prevent
[14:59] * asdfffdsa (~computer@gamesurge-6eba9827.bing.east.verizon.net) Quit (Quit: Leaving.)
[14:59] <@Sniper> We're still working with the half-life engine here, so there's a lot of problems that we're fixing that still exist in HL1.
[15:00] <@Sniper> The goal for most of the projects has been to kind of replace components in the engine piece by piece.
[15:01] <@Sniper> We might not be able to fix every problem in the game (without changing how the networking works), but things are improving
[15:01] <@Sniper> Some issues are lower priority than others, we can't fix all problems at once. People don't understand this.
[15:04] <@Sniper> The update following this one has a new NPC (Geneworm Boss), some new engine features (I implemented gl_overbright - with an experimental gl_ovebright for models), along with entity point lighting that accounts for brush models, hopefully a new model update to support TGA (I've got the code outlined for what needs to be modified)
[15:04] <@Sniper> That's on my docket for now, but the website is getting worked on in the meantime
[15:07] <@Sniper> The geneworm was actually a huge pain in the ass to program, because I had to extract the entity dimensions with a debugger attached to gearbox's build of the game
[15:08] <@Sniper> They don't have that information in the FGD, it's all floating points
[15:08] * LastResort (~kvirc@gamesurge-d87584b8.rochester.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[15:08] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/entity_brushmodel_lighting.jpg
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[15:09] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/davemcd/50/of6a5-2016-03-27-0012.jpg
[15:09] <strazh> I don't know how much demand there is for geneworm, though I have to admit that's a lot of work to bring it up
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[15:09] <@Sniper> I might tweak the eyeball lighting a bit, it's not the same shade as the original
[15:10] <strazh> The most common complaint I see is "svc_bad needs an immediate fix" and that there arn't any hotfixes ever
[15:10] <@Sniper> Yeah that's something we're addressing. Keep in mind we're handling a merge from Sam's updates.
[15:11] <@Sniper> As far as I'm concerned, we don't have to fix anything now - we just have to get the release out.
[15:12] <@Sniper> (Since it's fixed...)
[15:12] <@Sniper> We can't fix it unless it's released. >_<
[15:12] <@Sniper> Well, *hopefully* fixed, that is.
[15:12] <strazh> I'd release what you have ready either now or soon, and keep working on the rest of the planned update
[15:13] <strazh> If it's new and i works it dosen't make any sense to delay it
[15:13] <@duggles> well
[15:13] <@Sniper> Regarding the geneworm - it hasn't been properly tested yet, and so it'll need to wait until the next patch
[15:13] <@Sniper> strazh: The point I was trying to make is that we're doing that
[15:13] <@Sniper> We ran into some conflicts getting the engine to compile, and that's getting sorted out
[15:14] <@Sniper> Software renderering was just removed, as well as a lot of other junk
[15:14] <@Sniper> (per the changelog published)
[15:16] <@Sniper> That's actually the first step in the grander plan
[15:17] <strazh> I'm just saying with the steady decline of players it might be a good idea to prioratize stability
[15:17] <@Sniper> We needed to simplify the engine's code base so we can cut out the fat and focus on the good parts
[15:17] <@Sniper> Looking at our stats, our player base has been pretty constant. We spiked to 6500 players on release day, but we get around 600 to 700 on the weekends.
[15:17] <@Sniper> That's more than most games on Steam
[15:18] <strazh> The last time I saw this conversation it was 900-1000 on the weekends
[15:18] <@Sniper> Still well within the margin of error there, I'd say
[15:18] <@duggles> https://steamdb.info/app/225840/graphs/
[15:18] <@Sniper> More people show up during releases to see new content, that's well understood
[15:19] <@duggles> it hasn't been over 1000 in a few months
[15:19] <@duggles> oh wow
[15:19] <@duggles> we broke a million owners in may
[15:19] <@Sniper> yeah
[15:19] * @duggles hands out party hats
[15:19] <@duggles> i didn't realise :D
[15:20] <Aurora^> Time to party
[15:23] <+Misfire> lol
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[15:23] <strazh> someone get the airhorns
[15:29] <MirroR> thats bit insignificant but *clap clap clap*
[15:54] * @Puchi blows into a vuvuzela
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[17:47] <strazh> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6865091/mybrand.jpg
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[19:40] <@Dynamite> mmm
[19:40] <@Dynamite> national day potatoes
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[20:53] <Nero|> "The other issue is metamod might also cause a similar problem. " Make Angelscript >>>> metamod plz kthx
[20:53] <Nero|> I dun like using 3rd party stuff :[
[20:56] <@duggles> what's AS missing to make it >>>> metamod?
[20:56] <@duggles> database access is 'in progress'
[21:02] <Nero|> yeh pretty much that
[21:02] <Nero|> and some hooks
[21:02] <Nero|> sql+hookers
[21:02] <@duggles> 'in progress' :)
[21:02] <Nero|> I do realize it was supposed to be for mappers, but I think it should be more than that
[21:02] <Nero|> *fap fap fap*
[21:02] <@duggles> I've started small and am looking into getting the forcepmodel pseudo-cvar exposed
[21:03] <@duggles> (for nico)
[21:03] <@duggles> I've looked through the github pages too and have made a list of the hook requests/api changes
[21:03] <@duggles> hopefully I'll make some progress on those during this week
[21:04] <Nero|> oh right, I was gonna add another hook reequest: impulse :3
[21:04] <@duggles> that's a biiiig command
[21:05] <Nero|> eg: Override the flashlight with my custom flashlight/nightvision
[21:05] <Nero|> *fap fap fap*
[21:05] <Nero|> and give custom weapons/ammo with 101
[21:10] <Nero|> speak "scientist/hellofreeman(e50) ushouldsee(s60e81) freeman(s50)"
[21:10] <Nero|> AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
[21:11] <Nero|> lermao
[21:11] <@duggles> i thought you got a custom flashlight working?
[21:11] <@duggles> or was that a hack to make it look like nightvision?
[21:12] <Nero|> nah it's real, but it has a command
[21:12] <Nero|> .flashlight
[21:12] <Nero|> would be coo if players turn on that/NV when using impulse 100
[21:12] <@duggles> ahh
[21:12] <Nero|> They'd be liek "ehrmagerhd best server ever olol"
[21:14] <@duggles> i see where that is
[21:14] <@duggles> i'll have to see if there are difficulties/security concerns about doing that
[21:14] <@duggles> (my knowledge of the codebase is not great, I'm still learning it)
[21:15] <Nero|> <3
[21:17] <Nero|> formatex(alt_sound_file_name, TOK_LENGTH + 10 + 32, "../%s_addons/%s", modname, sound_file_name)
[21:17] <Nero|> fml
[21:17] <Nero|> That one extra 's' ruins it :[
[21:19] <Nero|> WARNING! sound/zelda/look.wav is causing runtime sample conversion!
[21:19] <Nero|> S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /sound/zelda/_period.wav
[21:19] <Nero|> wat
[21:19] <@duggles> addon brah
[21:19] <Nero|> yeh
[21:19] <Nero|> The sound plays, so why the error
[21:19] <Nero|> warning|
[21:20] <@duggles> 21:19:37 <     Nero|> WARNING! sound/zelda/look.wav is causing runtime sample conversion!
[21:20] <@duggles> i suspect that is the problem?
[21:20] <@duggles> maybe the error "Couldn't load" is thrown if any exception happend
[21:20] <@duggles> (idk lol)
[21:20] <Nero|> But why would it load a wav called _period.wav D:
[21:21] <Nero|> Isn't even in the plugin :[
[21:21] <@duggles> is it a sentence?
[21:21] <Nero|> noes
[21:21] <Nero|> just a
[21:21] <@duggles> huh
[21:22] <Nero|> look;		sound/zelda/look.wav;
[21:22] <Nero|> (sank sounds)
[21:23] <@duggles> the only place i can see _period is in the sentence parser
[21:23] <@duggles> and it should only be used if it meets a '.' in the sentence :/
[21:25] <Nero|> exactly
[21:25] <Nero|> *shrug* sound still plays so liek wutevaaaaaaa
[21:25] <@duggles> hmm
[21:30] <@duggles> Nero|: what file is that meant to be?
[21:31] <@Sniper> S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /sound/zelda/_period.wav
[21:32] <@Sniper> You shouldn't have this output at all
[21:32] <@Sniper> This is from the engine, not Sven Co-op's sound system
[21:33] <Nero|> lawl
[21:33] <@Sniper> I'm guessing this is from metamod?
[21:33] <@Sniper> Server plugin?
[21:33] <@Sniper> (I didn't read the entire chat)
[21:33] <Nero|> yeah
[21:33] <Nero|> sank sounds
[21:34] <@Sniper> yeah if you're still using the old sound system, you'll need to precache that stuff...
[21:34] <Nero|> you say a word/sentence and a sound plays
[21:34] <Nero|> But there are only a few of them that say this D:
[21:34] <@duggles> 21:22:14 <     Nero|> look;IIsound/zelda/look.wav;
[21:34] <@duggles> that doesn't look like a sentence though
[21:35] <Nero|> noes
[21:36] <@duggles> if you're trying to get a sound to play, have a look at the Vox.as script
[21:36] <Nero|> Hmm, seems as though all .wavs say
[21:36] <Nero|> S_LoadSound: Couldn't load /sound/folder/_period.wav
[21:37] <Nero|> It comes up right after the sound has been played
[21:37] <@duggles> can you paste me a bit of the script to see what it's doing?
[21:37] <Nero|> Guess I'll ask the plugincreator
[21:37] <Nero|> ait
[21:37] <@duggles> that too
[21:37] <nico> thanks duggles
[21:38] <Nero|> http://pastebin.com/qtYUWwZ0
[21:39] <@duggles> *   amx_sound_help          -    prints all available sounds to console
[21:39] <@duggles> wat
[21:39] <Nero|> all the triggers that the server has defined
[21:40] <@duggles> this is amx
[21:40] <@duggles> which uses metamod
[21:40] <Nero|> jes?
[21:40] <@duggles> and that's probably why it is using the engine's sound engine
[21:41] <@duggles> many years ago sniper implemented a separate sound engine for SC, which didn't live in the engine
[21:43] <@duggles> i'm not sure why it's using the old sound engine now... maybe there's a problem with the headers in the modified metamod version? idk. we'll have to investigate that
[21:43] <@duggles> Sniper: ^
[21:48] <Nero|> oh
[21:48] <Nero|> most likely *pretends to know wat am talking aboot*
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[21:51] <@duggles> i just had a quick look through the source code
[21:51] <@duggles> (of sank sounds)
[21:52] <@duggles> the way it works is it looks at the type of file it is supposed to play, then it sends a client command
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[21:53] <nico> 22:40   duggles │ this is amx
[21:53] <nico> can you like
[21:53] <nico> ban amx
[21:53] <@duggles> hehe
[21:53] <@duggles> no
[21:53] <@duggles> imagine the reddit threads
[21:54] <nico> angelscript is the way to go
[21:54] <nico> amx needs to die
[21:54] <nico> it already died in sven
[21:54] <nico> seriously
[21:54] <@duggles> AS needs to be polished up a bit first
[21:54] <nico> yes
[21:54] <nico> but it is good enough
[21:54] <nico> for a non-xp mod server
[21:54] <@duggles> like getting database support, hooks, etc.
[21:54] <nico> sqlite first pls
[21:55] <@duggles> but the problem is that there is so much stuff already written in AMXX it would be cruel to just ban it
[21:55] <@duggles> and would piss off a lot of server ops too
[21:55] <nico> yes it needs fixing and polishing but seriously the most of the amxx plugins can be implemented in as already
[21:55] <@duggles> since they would have to rewrite whatever plugins they may use
[21:55] <nico> I also do that and my server is .as only
[21:55] <@duggles> sqlite and mysql are on my todo list
[21:55] <nico> there is no need for amxx anymore
[21:56] <@duggles> solokiller wrote a lot of the glue between AS and sqlite/mysql
[21:56] <@duggles> it just needs some finishing
[21:56] <nico> unless xpmod (which sucks anyways)
[21:56] <nico> I agree it needs fixage and moar features
[21:56] <nico> but at the same time I say there is no reason in using amxx anymore
[21:57] <nico> because anything not involving databases can be implemented or ported like right now
[21:57] <@duggles> we'll get there. i need to spend more time learning the codebase before i make any huge changes, but i'm hoping to make some progress in the issue list for AS
[21:57] <nico> people use amxx because they dont know better
[21:57] <nico> and they always did
[21:57] <@duggles> there are two things i know of that AMX/metamod can do which AS (atm) cannot
[21:58] <nico> it needs to change
[21:58] <@duggles> and those are database support, and HTTP requests
[21:58] <nico> yes
[21:58] <nico> DB + SOCKETS
[21:58] <@duggles> (or, more generally, sockets)
[21:58] <nico> my requests
[21:58] <nico> thx 4 hearing me
[21:58] <@duggles> I have big concerns about sockets
[21:58] <nico> why?
[21:58] <@duggles> because of the security problems that they could pose
[21:59] <nico> they dont
[21:59] <@Dynamite> I think the DB code was completed for AS
[21:59] <nico> it is the server doing the requests
[21:59] <@duggles> you don't want someone to hack your server, inject a load of AS and then havce your server be part of a botnet
[21:59] <@Dynamite> although it might be outdated since Solokiller rewrote some code
[21:59] <@duggles> Dynamite: there are bits missing in some of the features
[21:59] <nico> thats not in the topic of discussion
[21:59] <nico> you can already hack hlds and use all clients as a botnet
[21:59] <nico> sockets do not change this
[22:00] <nico> the server is doing the requests not the client
[22:00] <nico> and even if you wont implement sockets
[22:00] <nico> people just use amxx
[22:00] <nico> which has sockets
[22:00] <@duggles> that's fair
[22:00] <nico> so where is the difference?
[22:00] <@duggles> well, you have to use amxx
[22:00] <@duggles> which, in your opinion, sucks :D
[22:00] <nico> well you can
[22:00] <nico> but it suck yes
[22:01] <nico> its not a valid argument tho
[22:01] <nico> when a server is hacked it is hacked
[22:01] <nico> then the admin did a shit job
[22:01] <@duggles> not necessaril;y
[22:01] <@duggles> AS could have a flaw in it
[22:01] <@duggles> not the admin's fault
[22:01] <@duggles> that's why I want to be careful
[22:01] <nico> then do it right as solo would
[22:02] <nico> have
[22:02] <nico> ;_;
[22:02] <nico> but its nice to see you caring duggles
[22:02] <nico> fix remaining stuff
[22:02] <nico> then do db then do sockets
[22:03] <nico> take ur time
[22:03] <nico> thanks!
[22:03] <@duggles> the hook requests and all that are what I'm going to use to get myself used to the code
[22:03] <nico> and good night
[22:03] <@duggles> after that it's things like DB/sockets/unicorns
[22:03] <@duggles> nn
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[22:54] <@Sniper> Well, looks like everything is back to normal, things are chugging away
[22:54] <@Sniper> If we have to keep deleting rant posts, that's fine
[22:55] <@Sniper> I wonder how projects work without anyone being able to make decisions
[22:55] <@Sniper> My title is lead programmer for the mod, I'm in charge of it's code base. We add people to the team that we think are of sufficient quality to work with it's code.
[22:56] <Nero|> oooh btw, there is a problem with selecting weapons when having multiple custom weapons
[22:56] <Nero|> I put ze cs weapon map on a map, and when you have all weapons they can't be selected properly
[22:56] <Nero|> something something slots not being cleared on map change
[22:57] <Nero|> liek some weapons show up in the wrong slots
[22:58] <@Sniper> You have to watch out for the slot indexes
[22:58] <@Sniper> If you need further information, I can assist you.
[22:58] <Nero|> They're fine, it's when you come from a map that doesn't have those weapons when it fucks up
[22:59] <@Sniper> You're saying slots aren't being cleared on map change?
[22:59] <Nero|> something like that, idk what causes it
[23:00] <Nero|> we played a map that had some classic doom weapons, was fine, then moved to a map with the cs weapons, and the selection messed up
[23:00] <Nero|> but on the next map of that series they were fine
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[23:07] <Nero|> I can send you the pack if want check it out
[23:07] <Nero|> I make vidya mebe
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[01:17] <@Sniper> http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/43935-A-letter-to-the-Sven-Co-op-team?goto=newpost
[01:18] <@Sniper> I think this pretty much sums up everything
[01:19] <+Stimor> "become something grate"
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[01:34] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/changelog.php <--- See this stuff?
[01:34] <@Sniper> Lots of ass busting there.
[01:36] <@Sniper> All before Sam started programming on the game.
[01:36] <@Sniper> I don't understand why people think the game is doomed because he left the team.
[01:37] <@Sniper> It's like a huge slap in the face of everyone that exists on the team.
[01:37] <@Sniper> *to
[01:37] <@Sniper> This is precisely the problem when we have outbursts like this. The wrong people get praise.
[01:38] <@Sniper> And this is pretty god damn disgraceful to, considering we just lost Brent Holowka. We dedicated the release to him.
[01:38] <@Sniper> *too
[01:39] <@Sniper> I need some caffeine, the words aren't coming out right.
[01:44] <+Stimor> dumb people gonna dumb
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[03:14] <@Sniper> http://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/1d/09/b3/1d09b3b276f4389f4b74b11d5b1c4bdc.jpg
[03:27] <@Sniper> It's amazing how many people love our features
[03:27] <@Sniper> and then when they're taken away, they go apeshit
[03:28] <@Sniper> static.cfg was disabled because it broke the game. We actually did something terrible by ignoring mapper configurations.
[03:33] <@Sniper> default_game_settings.cfg is executed first, the map's mapname.cfg is executed second, and then static.cfg executed after that.
[03:33] <@Sniper> Thereby ruining mapper configurations.
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[03:45] <+Stimor> http://i.imgur.com/6Yh3Lvn.jpg this dog will cheer you up
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[03:54] <@Puchi[CatchingSomeZ`s]> IT DIDNT
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[04:01] <+Stimor> why not D:
[04:01] <+Stimor> his name is hats awesome, we decided
[04:02] <@Puchi> i'm not a dog person! hahahahhaha
[04:04] <+Stimor> cats best
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[07:18] <MrMazur_Phone> Wow it still works
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[09:38] <Aurora^> Let's say there are two people working in a company; one person does much longer shifts, while the other does shorter shifts. The person doing longer shifts suffers a constructive discharge, and the other one displays a 17-year-long CV. The constructive discharge will have an impact on the workplace's productivity, whereas the 17-year-old CV does not really factor into that. Even if it was 170 years.
[09:41] <@duggles> what an apt analogy. except for the fact there was no hostile environment leading to a constructive discharge. solokiller refused outright to work with the other developers instead of attempting to reach a compromise through mature discussion.
[09:42] <Aurora^> What about Mad Jonesy, Andy Nemer, and Protector?
[09:43] <Aurora^> They were all disgruntled and decided to leave entirely on their own accord as well due to unrelated real life reasons?
[09:43] <Aurora^> I was here when Andy was around, as a betatester. I remember the conversations.
[09:43] <@duggles> i was not there for them. i make it a habit not to talk about thing i do not know about. i'll let Sniper or someone who was there for those people leaving to elaborate
[09:44] <Aurora^> He was accused very similarly of trying to 'take over'.
[11:10] <@Sniper> Just an FYI folks, I assigned angelscript to Sam because I *delegated*
[11:10] <@Sniper> I picked angelscript for the game.
[11:10] <@Sniper> I am an angelscript fan.
[11:11] <@Sniper> Angelscript is similar to C++, that is why I selected it.
[11:11] <@Sniper> Protector still hangs around every once in a while.
[11:12] <@Sniper> There was only one problem with Protector. He did a mass search and replace in the entire code base, and applied C Style casts to everything. I requested that he undo the change.
[11:12] <@Sniper> (It wasn't proper, even Sam would agree there)
[11:13] <@Sniper> Mad Jonesy left because I went into feature creep mode when the 3d artists got real life jobs.
[11:14] <@Sniper> That was my mistake - I didn't release the update in a timely manner (instead, I just posted about new features and posted videos of in-progress stuff). That's in the past though, has nothing to do with this conversation.
[11:15] <@Sniper> I'm famously quoted, somewhere, saying to Andy that he takes the joy out of the game. There were discussions back then of Andy turning the game into a business, and some people on the team didn't like that - so I confronted him about it.
[11:15] <@Sniper> A power struggle *did* ensue with Andy, and Daniel Fearon (and many team members) sided with my case.
[11:17] <@Sniper> It was our project back then anyway, and sometimes you need to stick up for yourself or people walk all over you.
[11:17] <@Sniper> Sven Co-op certainly wasn't Andy's property.
[11:18] <Aurora^> <Sniper> This mod is not about getting shit done
[11:18] <Aurora^> <Sniper> This mod is a personal project
[11:18] <Aurora^> <Sniper> And by doing what you've done, you've taken all the joy out
[11:18] <Aurora^> <AndY> People are working
[11:18] <Aurora^> <AndY> Thinking it was about getting shit done
[11:19] <@Sniper> Yes, good job Aurora, that's what I just said
[11:19] <Aurora^> Is that why it took 5 years to release?
[11:19] <@Sniper> I just wrote why it took forever to release
[11:20] <Aurora^> Feature creep
[11:20] <@Sniper> <Sniper> Mad Jonesy left because I went into feature creep mode when the 3d artists got real life jobs.
[11:20] <@Sniper> Yes, I think that was painfully obvious wasn't it?
[11:20] <@Sniper> I didn't know what to do with the game back then.
[11:20] <Aurora^> Do you know now?
[11:20] <@Sniper> Do you remember all of the svencoop models and arm hands and such?
[11:20] <@Sniper> Remember how there's like, 2 or 3 versions of the mp5?
[11:21] <Aurora^> Yes. I remember that.
[11:21] <@Sniper> I am not a modeller
[11:21] <Aurora^> I remember the glow on the Garg's eye.
[11:21] <@Sniper> We hate debates about the glow, actually
[11:21] <@Sniper> I argued it should be like the original game's red color
[11:21] <Aurora^> What's that about the shade of the geneworm's eye then?
[11:21] <@Sniper> It ended up being yellow for a couple releaes I think
[11:21] <@Sniper> *releases
[11:21] <Aurora^> Or actually the geneworm itself
[11:22] <@Sniper> There are a few artistic tweaks I made there. I programmed the geneworm to be as close to opposing force as possible (believe me, it's pretty damn near the same), but there are a couple of updates
[11:22] <@Sniper> For one thing, the acid spray does splash damage and shock troopers are spawned based on player counts in the level.
[11:23] <@Sniper> (Oops, that's two things - I need caffeine)
[11:23] <@Sniper> I'm still debating about the eye color, the eyes are normally yellow so it didn't make sense that they were that lighter white-ish hue in Opposing Force
[11:24] <Aurora^> Who cares?
[11:24] <@Sniper> No one cares yet, I added the eye effects a long time ago
[11:24] <Aurora^> Aren't there better things to focus on? Doesn't this kind of tie in with feature creep?
[11:24] <@Sniper> You brought it up
[11:24] <@Sniper> I'm not thinking about the Geneworm. It's not being released in this patch, we still have testing to do.
[11:25] <@Sniper> It's on our internal game build only.
[11:25] <@Sniper> Sam was still on the team then.
[11:26] <@Sniper> People were pissed that the Geneworm wasn't added, and they blamed me for not spending time on it. (A few team members wanted it added, too) I agreed that it should be added to the game, so I programmed it.
[11:27] <Aurora^> You spoke of the great difficulty that implementing the geneworm accurately presented. My two cents to that would be; if developers have little time to work on the project, and they are preparing or have very recently released the game on Steam for the first (and last) time, then perhaps entirely different things ought to have time allocated for them. No?
[11:27] <@Sniper> That's what we do. Angelscript is Sam's project.
[11:27] <@duggles> time was only allocated to it after SC was released on steam though
[11:27] <@Sniper> Adam works own item inventory (he also made a video)
[11:27] <@duggles> it wasn't worked on beforehand
[11:27] <@Sniper> *works on
[11:28] <@Sniper> Everyone does odd job stuff in the code base in addition to core game features.
[11:29] <Aurora^> It would have been more sensible to simply axe the OpFor campaign and include it as an optional map pack which mentions the boss is missing. Unlock the OpFor doors on -sp_campaign_portal only once it's done. People have complained and demanded many things, yet out of all the things to work on, the geneworm was chosen.
[11:30] <@Sniper> Again, Sam was on the team at the time. The geneworm was put on hold for years because it took a lot of effort to program.
[11:31] <@Sniper> There actually isn't that much that needs working on outside of Angelscript right now.
[11:31] <@Sniper> There's lots of engine issues, but they've been there since Half-Life 1. Slowly but surely we *have* been working on the engine and fixing problems.
[11:31] <Nero|tablet> TFW someone makes the genewirm
[11:32] <Aurora^> in angelscript
[11:32] <Nero|tablet> ffs
[11:32] <Nero|tablet> Yes ty
[11:32] <Nero|tablet> xD
[11:32] <@Sniper> Yes, that's the general idea
[11:32] <Nero|tablet> Damn tablet
[11:33] <@Sniper> I added angelscript to Sven Co-op so that we could have mini mods in Sven Co-op, on a mapper level. This is pretty much our entire focus. Sam did the implementation because I realized I didn't have enough time to work on it.
[11:33] <Aurora^> Are the engine issues not important, regardless of how long they've been there?
[11:33] <@Sniper> No, they're important
[11:33] <Aurora^> Surely this is why engine access was granted - so you could work on these specific things
[11:33] <@Sniper> However, we're lucky we even have the engine
[11:34] <@Sniper> Most of the goals and focus from before were all about how to circumvent the engine.
[11:34] <@Sniper> I did a lot of R&D to bypass the engine's renderer, physics, etc. among other things
[11:35] <@Sniper> Then suddenly we *HAD* the engine
[11:35] <@Sniper> There's a lot of work involved to maintain it, we're addressing issues as fast as possible. I have fixed numerous things in it thus far, as well as Adam.
[11:36] <@Sniper> Look at the DragonballZ mod on goldsource.
[11:36] <Aurora^> Do you reckon you realistically have the time to stabilise the current version of the game alongside all its features within the year?
[11:36] <@Sniper> That is essentially what we were planning on doing - they replaced the game's renderer with their own.
[11:37] <@Sniper> Basically at this point, I really don't give a damn what people's opinions are about our "development practices"
[11:37] <@Sniper> We pushed really damn hard to polish up the game for the Steam release
[11:37] <@Sniper> 5.0 was our best release yet
[11:37] <@Sniper> We also transformed HLSP
[11:39] <@Sniper> No one was paid any money. We got a nice thanks from the community and that was fine.
[11:40] <@Sniper> But as it stands, we have no obligation to anyone, to do anything to the game.
[11:40] <Aurora^> The HLSP experience was far better with 5.0, with the carried on inventory status, classic mode weapons, combined .BSPs, checkpoints, truer to original monster placement, and the scaling back of the previously insane AI. Props to whoever worked on that.
[11:40] <Aurora^> I don't contest that.
[11:40] <@Sniper> We could essentially stop development on the game tomorrow, and the team would be completely in the right. We sold no product, we received no compensation.
[11:41] <@Sniper> The team supports Sven Co-op because we all busted our asses working on it.
[11:41] <@Sniper> Further development will continue because everyone on the team cares about the community.
[11:41] <Aurora^> You must realise lots of other people have invested their time and effort into the game as well.
[11:41] <@Sniper> Sam attacked us for delaying the game for a year while Half-Life single player was worked on.
[11:42] <@Sniper> We pushed hard to ensure the #1 feature everyone played on day one of the release worked properly.
[11:42] <Aurora^> What about days #2 to #365?
[11:43] <+Misfire> <duggles> time was only allocated to it after SC was released on steam though [if we're talking after release, time coulda been allotted to svc_bad, server crashes like cpu hang, node graph crashes, name exploit (which has been fixed)
[11:43] <@Sniper> We released numerous patches since then, and the next one is coming probably on Friday or Saturday (I hope)
[11:43] <@Sniper> Misfire: Adam, Myself, and Sam worked on trying to find SVC_BAD
[11:44] <@Sniper> We knew about the issue.
[11:44] <@Sniper> We debugged it.
[11:44] <@duggles> svc_bad has been addressed, a few cpu_hang issues have also been addressed (and already released, remember the donor queries killing linux machines? fixed and released), i dunno about node graph crashes because i haven't seen much about them
[11:44] <@Sniper> I found the cause *WITH* Sam
[11:44] <@Sniper> That said, we don't know if it's fixed entirely.
[11:44] <@Sniper> Neither does Sam.
[11:45] <Aurora^> I see a contradiction here:
[11:45] <Aurora^> <@Sniper> Basically at this point, I really don't give a damn what people's opinions are about our "development practices"
[11:45] <Aurora^> <@Sniper> Further development will continue because everyone on the team cares about the community.
[11:45] <@Sniper> If that makes me an asshole, I don't know how.
[11:45] <@Sniper> Right Aurora^, we're being attacked for how we work on the fucking game
[11:45] <Aurora^> You say you care about the community, but not their opinions.
[11:45] <Aurora^> I don't see how that's possible.
[11:46] <@Sniper> Well, that would be because they're two completely different subjects
[11:46] <@duggles> you're being disingenuous there
[11:46] <Aurora^> Is it something akin to parents who know better what their children should do with their lives to be happy?
[11:46] <@duggles> Aurora^: there is a difference between ignoring the community (which isn't done) and having an established work practice
[11:47] <@Sniper> Really is none of anyone's business but the team's.
[11:48] <@duggles> the only reason there appears to be an issue over the work practices on the team is because someone who quit didn't like them. what about the rest of the team? do we all disagree about how things our done? I don't. I suspect the majority of the team members don't.
[11:48] <Aurora^> The public is now seeing problems behind the curtains with said established work practice. You mentioned on the forum that this is how it has always been, and it must be right because players are still playing - but you are giving far too much credit to the team's own efforts when determining the reason why anyone still plays. It's Half-Life in co-op, and there are people hosting servers, mappers creating custom content for it - that's the greater part of why it lives.
[11:49] <@Sniper> The public saw a bunch of cute quotes during some flame wars that happened inside the team. You're reading into things and you're forming a biased opinion.
[11:49] <Aurora^> You forget that I was there in the developer chat room myself as a beta tester.
[11:49] <Aurora^> Under a different nickname back then.
[11:49] <Aurora^> 2006-2008
[11:50] <@Sniper> That was also 10 years ago, when I was 20 going through college
[11:51] <Aurora^> If the past doesn't matter, then why:
[11:51] <Aurora^> [01:34] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/changelog.php <--- See this stuff?
[11:51] <Aurora^> [01:34] <@Sniper> Lots of ass busting there.
[11:51] <Aurora^> [01:36] <@Sniper> All before Sam started programming on the game.
[11:51] <Aurora^> Bring it up yourself, by glorifying 17 years of changelogs?
[11:51] <@Sniper> Those changelogs aren't all because of me
[11:51] <Aurora^> But they are in the past regardless
[11:51] <@Sniper> What was the point in me posting that?
[11:51] <@Sniper> Do you know what I was trying to say?
[11:51] <@duggles> i would argue the past does matter, but it is not correct to directly compare the events with andy to the events with solokiller (but then again I wasn't there for andy, so I cannot say that with any strong authority)
[11:51] <@Sniper> What was the topic, also?
[11:52] <@Sniper> I know what the topic was
[11:52] <@Sniper> Sam overinflated his worth to the game. It's very easy to do that.
[11:52] <@Sniper> I was trying to explain that there are other people on the team that worked on Sven Co-op before he arrived.
[11:53] <@Sniper> If you attack me for making that assertion, that's pretty lame
[11:53] <@Sniper> That's in general a big middle finger to everyone else on the team
[11:53] <+Misfire> uh no one was questioning other team member's contributions
[11:53] <@Sniper> They are and continue to do so
[11:53] <Aurora^> And I mean, if we are discussing established work practise, consider that 4.0 took five years to release. Solokiller isn't the only person who had a problem with the development practises - you say it's 'only one person' with a problem. It's always only one person, because this game has been around for 17 years and those who had a problem quit after a few years of beating their heads against a wall.
[11:53] <@Sniper> Sam left the team, so most of the haters in the community now think the game is doomed
[11:54] <@Sniper> It's almost laughable at how uninformed they are.
[11:54] <MirroR> the reason isnt just one persons leaving
[11:54] <MirroR> there is many peoples who have thinked the same for past 3 years
[11:54] <MirroR> now it just has gone more viral with bigger population
[11:54] <@Sniper> No, that's specifically the entire debate. People think Sam is the only one that can make the game better.
[11:54] <Aurora^> They don't.
[11:55] <@Sniper> I assure you otherwise
[11:56] <@Sniper> That does seem to be the general opinion being posted about
[11:57] <Aurora^> I believe that technically, everyone with the knowledge how to work with the game's engine or contribute to it otherwise, have the potential and capability of making it better. The problem is with attitudes, with ignoring others' opinions, and with you wielding too much power in comparison to the time you're able to allocate for development.
[11:57] <@Sniper> Again here we are
[11:57] <@Sniper> You're telling me and everyone else on the team how to think
[11:57] <@Sniper> This is our project
[11:57] <MirroR> if you really think this is all about solo youre totally wrong or youre just trying to cover your own tracks somehow, everything isnt well it hasnt been in long time
[11:57] <Aurora^> It's your project because everyone else whose project it was left after you said it was your project
[11:58] <MirroR> own private project that community's opinions are just wind in air?
[11:58] <@Sniper> You think I'm a dictator because you saw a bunch of quotes. Pretty pathetic.
[11:58] <@Sniper> You're not on the team, you don't interact with team members on a regular basis, you aren't in our voice meetings, you don't make decisions.
[11:58] <MirroR> It's more than that now there has been more prove of that
[11:58] <MirroR> proof*
[11:59] <@Sniper> This is not an open source project, this is a closed source project run by a team of people with a heirarchy structure put in place based on seniority
[11:59] <@Sniper> *WE* choose how to govern ourselves, and it's worked quite well over the years
[11:59] <MirroR> private little treehouse
[11:59] <Aurora^> I think so because I've been around since 2003 and seen you for as long, and because throughout this time I've been close to a large number of people who worked or work with the game.
[12:00] <@Sniper> MirroR: Yes, that's exactly right! It's a private little tree house.
[12:00] <Aurora^> You could make yourself look so much better by giving in a little and doing some self-reflection. It would be easy to defuse this whole situation. I am not here to escalate it - I am urging you to address these issues. Detach yourself from your defensive position and look at it as an outside observer?
[12:01] <Aurora^> Surely you cannot have made perfect decisions
[12:01] <@duggles> 'You could make yourself look so much better by giving in a little ' There have been plenty of times where compromises have been reached
[12:01] <@duggles> sniper is not some dictator
[12:01] <@Sniper> You mean - admit to every false accusation? No thanks
[12:01] <@Sniper> Maybe you could do a little self reflection and listen to the team members speaking out against Sam?
[12:01] <MirroR> so everything has been always perfect? there hasnt been ever any bad decisions you regret or any team member regrets?
[12:02] <@Sniper> Sam isn't the team, Sam was a contributor and now he's gone.
[12:02] <@Sniper> I mean what is it do you think I get out of all of this stuff? Hmmmm? Do I have a secret agenda to subvert the will of people I work with on the team?
[12:03] <@Sniper> Do you think Sven Co-op is a cult?
[12:03] * @Sniper chuckles
[12:03] <MirroR> Yes your agenda is to make the mod seem like you want no matter what people want the people who actually have played lot
[12:03] <@duggles> The cult of Chubby
[12:03] <@Sniper> We have 3 sacrificial chubby offerings each month
[12:04] <Aurora^> Perhaps something like the beta testing team saying in 2006 that including the old MP5+GL at least as an optional feature would be elemental in retaining the fast-paced gameplay of the old version of HL, and you ignoring this as what you termed 'nostalgia', eventually choosing to implement it only a decade later once you'd arrived at the same conclusion independently.
[12:04] <MirroR> im not thinking this as being cult, cults actually have good pr
[12:04] <@Sniper> You can only attack me based on something that happened a decade ago?
[12:04] <@Sniper> You apparently have very little knowledge
[12:05] <Aurora^> I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to get through to you.
[12:05] <@Sniper> Why am I being attacked for the grenade launcher?
[12:05] <@Sniper> Can you tell me who was involved in the decision to change how the grenade launcher works? Do you know?
[12:05] <@Sniper> Because I know
[12:05] <@Sniper> Hint: It wasn't me
[12:06] <Aurora^> I cannot, but I know you turned it down back then.
[12:06] <@Sniper> Do you know that the grenade launcher was changed during the 3.5 era?
[12:06] <@Sniper> Do you remember what happened during this time?
[12:06] <@Sniper> Turned what down?
[12:06] <Aurora^> Yes - the angle of the grenade was made to matche the direction of the movement, and the trajectory was made more direct.
[12:06] <@Sniper> OK hold on
[12:07] <Aurora^> I know that.
[12:07] <@Sniper> I thought you were referring to how the grenade launcher operates on the m16a2
[12:07] <@Sniper> Are you only talking about the spin?
[12:08] <Aurora^> I'm talking about the MP5+GL combo from vanilla HL overall. Keeping the old weapon - not for sake of nostalgia, but for sake of maintaining fast paced run-and-gun gameplay that was intended originally with the weapon.
[12:08] <@Sniper> Okay, why are you attacking me for that?
[12:08] <@Sniper> You think I was responsible for all of that?
[12:09] <Aurora^> You responded to my request for this personally and turned it down, alongside with other people who mentioned the same, so who else?
[12:09] <@Sniper> You really think I am the *SOLE* person responsible?
[12:09] <@Sniper> Think back to that time era. Who was on the team?
[12:09] <@Sniper> Also, what was popular back then?
[12:10] <Aurora^> Realism was popular with you, that much I remember
[12:10] <@Sniper> Ahh no
[12:10] <@Sniper> Realism was popular with the entire game community
[12:11] <Aurora^> Debatable
[12:11] <@Sniper> And we had 3d artists on the team that thought we should change how the weapons worked
[12:11] <@Sniper> I sure as hell didn't make the models
[12:11] <Aurora^> But you made the whole team wait until they were done
[12:11] <@Sniper> Yes
[12:11] <@Sniper> because the game was dead
[12:11] <@Sniper> There was no team Aurora^
[12:11] <Aurora^> And delaying a next release for HD models even longer was going to revive it?
[12:12] <@Sniper> No one worked on the game except level designers
[12:12] <@Sniper> There was no team
[12:12] <Aurora^> Can you explain why there was no team?
[12:12] <@Sniper> I did a million times!
[12:12] <@Sniper> We had a HUGE art team! They all got jobs!
[12:12] <@Sniper> So many models were worked on! Look at all the videos!
[12:13] <@Sniper> They were abandoned
[12:13] <Aurora^> There was no release for 5 years since 2003
[12:13] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/archive/news-archive-7-2004.php
[12:13] <@Sniper> Look
[12:13] <Aurora^> 5 years is a lifetime in videogame measures
[12:13] <@Sniper> See that?
[12:13] <@Sniper> Please tell me you can see that stuff
[12:13] <Aurora^> Alright, let me look
[12:13] <@Sniper> Who made the weapon? Hint: Not me!
[12:14] <@Sniper> The grenade launcher was made by a bunch of people on the team
[12:14] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/archive/news-archive-8-2004.php
[12:15] <@Sniper> a week later, Tor was posted about
[12:15] <@Sniper> The animations weren't finalized at that point for Tor. Daniel Fearon had to bring in his brother to help get the damn thing finished.
[12:16] <@Sniper> http://www.svencoop.com/archive/news-archive-2-2005.php
[12:16] <@Sniper> See this?
[12:16] <Aurora^> Listen: I am not saying you are to blame for everything. I am not saying the efforts you have made shouldn't be recognised. The one thing people would like to see is you admitting at least the part, the partial responsibility, that you've had in the problems, for once.
[12:16] <@Sniper> Sven Co-op 2 suddenly appears
[12:16] <@Sniper> 1 year later
[12:16] <Aurora^> Some people perhaps, but most, and certainly not me, want to drag your face through the mud or anything like that.
[12:16] <@Sniper> I'm just trying to explain that the team was all over the place back then
[12:16] <@Sniper> and Sven Co-op 2 nearly was the kiss of death
[12:17] <@Sniper> I tried to finish 3.5 while others worked on Sven Co-op 2, and then the entire art team got jobs and had to leave
[12:17] <@Sniper> People didn't want to work on Sven Co-op because Sven Co-op 2 was new and shiny
[12:17] <Aurora^> I understand that even if you had dedicated 48 hours a day into Sven Co-op 3.5 and Sven Co-op 2, that the releases would have been delayed by years and the latter game never surfaced - because the team members vanished. THat happens to many mods.
[12:18] <@Sniper> The news posts don't lie, they paint the perfect picture of what really was going on
[12:18] <@Sniper> My mistake, which I openly admit, is that I feature creeped the game while I waited for others to help get the thing released
[12:19] <@Sniper> I was a one man show because there just simply wasn't anyone on the team
[12:19] <@Sniper> I kept posting in the news for people to join the team
[12:19] <@Sniper> It was terrible
[12:19] <@Sniper> Regardless, during that time, a bunch of stuff was programmed that still exists in the game today
[12:20] <@Sniper> So it wasn't a total loss
[12:20] <@Sniper> (Not just referring to the weapons)
[12:21] <@Sniper> http://web.archive.org/web/20050306084509/http://gamejack.hlgaming.com/interview.php?id=2
[12:21] <Aurora^> You've stuck around for a long time and didn't give up on the project even when you ran out of time - but consider that you, as a human being with inherent human flaws that can be perceived in probably most individuals who stay in charge of one thing for a long time - have developed a sense of seniority and arrogance over anyone newer, outside, or underneath you, that may harm the project when you remain so controlling over it.
[12:21] <@Sniper> Sniper| - It's been slow progress, but along the way it's been a rather massive learning experience. We try to make each release better than the last. Our last version of Sven Co-op for Half-Life will be 3.5, which is currently being worked on now.
[12:21] <@Sniper> Sniper| - When Half-Life 2 releases, we will continue to put the same amount of effort in for a very long time.
[12:21] <@Sniper> Sniper| - (For the Half-Life 2 version of the mod.)
[12:22] <@Sniper> ^ Obviously things changed
[12:22] <@Sniper> I do retain a lot of control over Sven Co-op, but as I've said, I'm regular overridden by other team members.
[12:23] <@Sniper> Part of my job as lead programmer is to provide oversight over the code base. I try to help out where possible.
[12:23] <@Sniper> *I'm regularly overridden
[12:23] <@Sniper> (I can't spell for shit today)
[12:25] <Aurora^> However it practically is your mod ever since Sven ceased to be around and back a decade ago since the other team members left. You made a separate branch for Sam to commit his contributions to.
[12:26] <@Sniper> Dan is still around, he just sent an email today
[12:26] <Aurora^> I can't really call that being around.
[12:26] <@Sniper> I act as a figurehead on the team because I've been working on the game on and off for 15 years. That's the only reason.
[12:27] <Aurora^> So your actual capability doesn't factor into it then?
[12:27] <Aurora^> Only seniority? Come on.
[12:27] <@Sniper> Well, he still pays the website bills, and he helps out when needed
[12:27] <Aurora^> Yes, but in practise he isn't involved.
[12:27] <@Sniper> <Aurora^> So your actual capability doesn't factor into it then?
[12:27] <@Sniper> 15 years of experience working with half-life? Surely it does
[12:28] <Aurora^> What about free time and game design knowledge?
[12:28] <@Sniper> How do you think the mod came to be?
[12:29] <Aurora^> Sven made a map series, that's how
[12:29] <@Sniper> Bingo
[12:29] <@Sniper> Does Sven have game design knowledge?
[12:29] <Aurora^> He probably had free time back then.
[12:29] <@Sniper> How is game design knowledge acquired?
[12:29] <@Sniper> Through experience? Through reading articles on the subject?
[12:29] <@Sniper> Both?
[12:30] <Aurora^> Both.
[12:30] <Aurora^> And more.
[12:30] <@Sniper> Yes.
[12:30] <@Sniper> There is no perfect game developer.
[12:30] <@Sniper> Everyone is human.
[12:30] <@Sniper> We aren't paid to do anything for anyone.
[12:30] <@Sniper> It is merely a project, created by a group of individuals, with varying levels of involvement.
[12:31] <Aurora^> That's what I'm saying - you are human as well, and all the content creators and server hosters aren't being paid either. In fact, they're paying with their money and time in many instances
[12:31] <@Sniper> Some people make maps, some people code, some people create art. We all have our ups and downs and we've been working through the game's various releases for years.
[12:32] <Aurora^> But is having a good game more imporant to you than presiding over a personal project? Which one?
[12:32] <@Sniper> The good game is derived from the fact that this is a hobby project
[12:32] <@Sniper> No one is being told to play Sven Co-op
[12:32] <@Sniper> Yet they flock to it
[12:33] <@Sniper> We have over a million installations now
[12:33] <Aurora^> So you don't care about having players?
[12:33] <Aurora^> They just happened to show up?
[12:33] <@Sniper> Today is "put words into Sniper's mouth day"
[12:33] <@Sniper> :D
[12:33] <@Sniper> Anyway I think you understand where I'm coming from
[12:34] <MirroR> i wanna hear answer to this
[12:34] <@Sniper> Most of the game's development I was just a dumb kid trying to figure out stuff
[12:34] <@Sniper> That's how hobby projects usually start
[12:34] <Aurora^> If I was the game developer, and I had the opportunity for a Steam release of Half-Life co-op for free, then I sure would be telling people to play the game - and I'd listen to their concerns about what's wrong with it, preferrably before said release
[12:35] <@Sniper> I'm more disgusted with the fact that you seem to think we're not listening to concerns
[12:35] <Aurora^> You are listening but you're not addressing them
[12:35] <@Sniper> That's your opinion
[12:35] <@Sniper> Factually wrong
[12:37] <Aurora^> Sven Co-op being a good game, and being your personal hobby project, are not mutually exclusive. However, suppose that these were mutually exclusive for some reason - perhaps due to some unexpected life circumstances, having zero time to work on it - then what's more important to you?
[12:38] <@Sniper> This is everyone's problem though
[12:38] <@Sniper> People are seeing me
[12:38] <@Sniper> They are not seeing the fact that we have a team
[12:38] <@Sniper> Also you seem to be disregarding our communication with the public
[12:38] <Aurora^> This is because right now it's about you, and every time that concerns regarding you are brought up, you start talking about everyone else. It's about you now
[12:39] <@Sniper> For instance, on launch day, we scrambled (Dan Fearon, Adam, and myself) to figure out the cause to the window scaling issue in Windows 8 and above
[12:39] <Aurora^> No one is saying every bad thing ever is your sole responsibility, but on this instance it's about you
[12:39] <@Sniper> We had the problem fixed in short order
[12:39] <@Sniper> Not everything is easy to fix in the engine though, it's a large code base with very technical inner workings that can easily break the game
[12:40] <@Sniper> (BTW, I think we fixed the resolution issue the very same weekend)
[12:40] <Aurora^> Theoretically if you were faced with the choice, as I said perhaps due to an imaginary circumstance where you completely ran out of time in real life, would presiding over the project be more important than having a good game?
[12:41] <Aurora^> I am not saying these things are mutually exclusive now necessarily, but what if they were, what's more important in that case?
[12:42] <@Sniper> I have already discussed passing the torch after I finish a couple remaining goals that I have had
[12:42] <Aurora^> It is not a rhethorical question, nor an accusation, nor a suspicion. It's just a question.
[12:43] <@Sniper> If I don't have time, I will be fading away in a similar manner to Dan (even though he pops in as needed)
[12:44] <Aurora^> So why not treat Sam the same way Dan treats you?
[12:45] <@Sniper> Aurora^ I dont know how to explain this any more than I already have
[12:45] <@Sniper> Things went south with Sam
[12:46] <Aurora^> Things can still come back up north
[12:46] <@Sniper> I'm not the only person to feel this way
[12:46] <@Sniper> Yes, we were fine with him coming back on the team after he cooled off
[12:46] <@Sniper> Again, he wasn't kicked from the team
[12:47] <@Sniper> But, honestly, we don't have time for nonsense. He's burned his bridge, and we're moving forward.
[12:47] <Aurora^> He outpaced everyone on the team, and everyone else had little time to work on the game. At the end of the day he would've just been doing delegations and assignments handed out to him, and everything he did would've had to be doublechecked.
[12:48] <@Sniper> Why do you think that? Because he said it?
[12:48] <Aurora^> Why else make a separate branch for him?
[12:48] <Aurora^> I don't get that
[12:48] <@Sniper> Why didn't he finish angelscript's implementation?
[12:50] <@Sniper> After discussion with the Adam and Dan, we decided to give him his own branch because he kept breaking the main branch
[12:50] <Aurora^> I thought he had explained that already
[12:50] <@duggles> he hadn't until today.
[12:50] <@duggles> he has a reddit post which explains "he wasn't feeling appreciated" so he didn't finish it
[12:51] <@duggles> then some personal attacks on me
[12:51] <@duggles> nbd
[12:51] <Aurora^> I wouldn't feel appreciated either in the same scenario
[12:51] <@Sniper> Yeah, because Sam wasn't being a dick at all
[12:51] <@Sniper> Oh wait, he was
[12:51] <@duggles> Aurora^: you don't know the context
[12:51] <@Sniper> Hence the arguments and fighting
[12:52] <@duggles> i was there, sam was consistently combative
[12:52] <Aurora^> Show the context then if it improves your position
[12:52] <Aurora^> nothing to lose at this stage
[12:52] <@duggles> nothing to gain, either
[12:53] <@duggles> it just shows that a team had disagreements, that's nothing new
[12:53] <@Sniper> Look, Aurora^, we tried to work with Sam
[12:53] <Aurora^> Well, all I've got is your word on Sam being a dick, and no one can argue with that if it's within a certain context that's invisible to people
[12:53] <Aurora^> Same goes for the public
[12:53] <Aurora^> All they can see is what's out there
[12:53] <@Sniper> If I was a huge cock face, everyone on the team would have kicked me off the project. I'm outnumbered here.
[12:54] <Aurora^> How would they have kicked you off
[12:54] <@Sniper> Simple really
[12:54] <@Sniper> Adam could do it in 5 seconds
[12:54] <@Sniper> I run and pay for the forums
[12:54] <@Sniper> Adam manages the infrastructure
[12:55] <@Sniper> Adam would listen to Dan's direction over mine, any day of the week
[12:55] <@Sniper> If the entire team hated me, I would address it and try to work things out
[12:56] <@Sniper> Sam just basically threw a temper tantrum (which he admits he took things too far in his reddit post, while attacking me at the same time)
[12:57] <Aurora^> Removing the most senior team member who has the source, who is close with a circle of other team members almost as senior as himself, pays for the forum, etc. is a bit more complicated than making that happen at the snap of a finger. Whenever anyone dissented to a greater extent, in practise they would get smoked out. IT's not all about the technicalities.
[12:57] <@Sniper> If you think I talk with people on the team and say "fuck you, this is how it's going to be", the game would be dead pretty quickly
[12:57] <@Sniper> Everyone has backups of the forum
[12:57] <@Sniper> Plus I wouldn't be a dick
[12:59] <@Sniper> That said, I do have some pretty strongly opinionated views on stuff. I try to support my arguments in favor of stuff if there is disagreement. Running and Shooting was a pretty good example.
[12:59] <@Sniper> I fought to keep the feature in, and some people like it for certain NPCs
[12:59] <@Sniper> There are even posts from people that say it's good for grunts as well
[12:59] <@Sniper> We're only keeping it for a few NPCs though based on talks we've had internally
[13:00] <Aurora^> Human beings are more complicated than either being okay folks, or complete fucking arseholes. I'm not trying to decide which one you are, as I don't believe in good versus evil or any other mythological, moral, Hollywood-esque way of perceiving the world and people. I'm trying to talk to you about some issues that people have perceived in your attitude, and some decisions here and there which people judge as rather poor, and I'm hoping you would acknowledge them.
[13:01] <@Sniper> Linus Torvalds also has a shitty attitude
[13:01] <@Sniper> But they thrive on that stuff
[13:02] <Aurora^> He's good at managing things technically but he'd be fucking horrible to be around personally
[13:02] <@Sniper> I'm not a european, I'm american
[13:02] <@Sniper> Sam is from Belgium
[13:03] <@Sniper> Sometimes there's a culture clash
[13:03] <@Sniper> Sometimes everything is fine
[13:03] <Aurora^> Linus is Finnish, eg. from Finland, and I can recognise his blunt, direct, rude way of communicating things as characteristic of that culture - because I'm from the same country as him. However it's a fucking shit culture, and it shouldn't be excused just because that's the tradition.
[13:03] <@Sniper> Aurora^: Well you say Linus Torvalds is horrible, but millions of people out there would disagree
[13:04] <@duggles> ummmmm
[13:04] <@duggles> linus is a bit of an arse
[13:04] <@duggles> linux is p cool tho
[13:04] <Aurora^> I think he's a great developer but he's not a great person
[13:04] <Aurora^> That's my opinion anyway
[13:04] <@duggles> but maybe that's that my opinion due to my irish culture of non-confrontation
[13:05] <@Sniper> I'm irish >:o
[13:05] <@duggles> yeah but you live in america
[13:05] <@Sniper> exactly
[13:05] <@Sniper> Completely fucked in the head
[13:06] <@Sniper> Anyway, I just want to say that we don't have a democracy structure in place. We have people that make decisions in certain areas, and we have an overall voice that raises complaints when things are done a certain way on the team.
[13:07] <@Sniper> We're a group of dudes that work on a hobby project and we figure out how to get along
[13:07] <@Sniper> If you want the game to continue, you're just going to have to deal with it
[13:08] <@Sniper> This is how we run our team, and we're not all dicks
[13:10] <Aurora^> Maybe you guys should take a break for a week and forget about this. Then, after distancing yourselves from all of this, come back around the same table and have a discussion about what happened, admit it if mistakes were made, and decide where to go on from there. Right now all we've got here is two sides and you're one side, defending against the other side, the public. If you distanced yourself from this a bit and looked at what happened, including your own part as if it was someone else, then something better might come out of this, in my view.
[13:10] <@Sniper> No mistakes were made
[13:10] <@Sniper> A mistake would have been made if we kicked Sam from the team
[13:10] <@Sniper> He made the choice to leave, we tried to work things out
[13:11] <Aurora^> You've said a few things and the administration has taken a few actions which are huge mistakes in terms of PR
[13:11] <Aurora^> understandably, under aggravation from the whole unfolding conflict
[13:11] <@Sniper> But you know what? That's life
[13:11] <@Sniper> The sun will come up tomorrow
[13:12] <@Sniper> I could easily attack you Aurora^, based on the events that unfolded around Richard Boderman
[13:12] <@Sniper> A map I thought was pretty awesome
[13:12] <Aurora^> You would be welcome to attack me, and I would admit my part and apologise once more
[13:12] <@Sniper> You acted in a dictator fashion
[13:13] <@Sniper> You had us remove the map from the game
[13:13] <@Sniper> I've said nothing on the subject
[13:13] <@Sniper> Internally or otherwise
[13:14] <@Sniper> So from my perspective, you're kind of being a hypocrite here
[13:15] <@Sniper> I'm trying to be honest here and explain what happened
[13:15] <Aurora^> I had had a beef with the team for a while, I saw GigaByte get banned on a particularly bad day, and exploded in rage due to my poor temper. Consequently I was exiled from the community, ie. banned from the IRC and forum, and in response I asked for my map to be removed. I regret my overreaction and hope to improve as a person. Having turned 27 two weeks ago I seek to behave more like it.
[13:15] <MirroR> i see huge difference here though
[13:15] <MirroR> i see no empathy personally from your part here
[13:15] <@Sniper> MirroR: Ahh, but you don't know about the events surrounding Richard Boderman
[13:15] <Aurora^> As compensation I have offered a map request for each team member, though I never heard a response to this
[13:16] <@duggles> The whole problem with boderman was resolved. Tempers cooled. Bridges were rebuilt and things got back to the way they were.
[13:16] <@Sniper> MirroR: That's because you've formed an opinion based on half-truths
[13:16] <Aurora^> I've relayed this to Adam, to Puchi, to Trempler, as well as posting on the forum - though I removed that post a few days ago as I figured it's better relayed via private channels.
[13:17] <@Sniper> Humans have great difficulty changing their minds once they've decided something
[13:18] <Aurora^> You know, I know my mushroom model was removed as failing to match the standard of the game.
[13:18] <@Sniper> Aurora^: Don't get me wrong, I'm not getting myself involved in the Richard Boderman stuff. I'm sure you had valid complaints.
[13:18] <Aurora^> Boderman has a bunch of female assassin prisoners with ridiculous models, termed 'slut' and 'bitch'. Surely those don't match the standard either
[13:18] <@Sniper> I don't know who added that
[13:19] <@Sniper> I didn't work on the map
[13:19] <Aurora^> I made the map
[13:19] <Aurora^> and I added those ridiculous models when I made it in 2005
[13:19] <@Sniper> I know this
[13:19] <@Sniper> This is quite clear
[13:19] <@Sniper> I'm referring to "bitch" and "slut"
[13:20] <@Sniper> Did you name them that?
[13:20] <Aurora^> Yes I did.
[13:21] <Aurora^> They've been like that since the start. I'd change them now if I could update the map.
[13:21] <@Sniper> Ideally we don't have stuff like that in the game, but that's not something that crossed my mind
[13:22] * Retrieving #svencoop modes...
[13:22] <@Sniper> I think that'd be fine
[13:22] <@Sniper> I wanted Richard Boderman re-added, but I don't know what's going on there
[13:22] <@Sniper> I personally love the map, it's pretty cool
[13:23] <@Sniper> I want Osprey removed from Sven Co-op, but I've been told no
[13:23] <@Sniper> Osprey is my map
[13:23] <@Sniper> >_>
[13:23] <@duggles> heheh
[13:23] <@duggles> that map is never being removed
[13:23] <@duggles> ever
[13:23] <@Sniper> Stupid dictators
[13:23] <@duggles> it's your punishment
[13:23] <@duggles> >:-D
[13:23] <@duggles> (I like osprey)
[13:23] <@Sniper> I'm deadly serious by the way, I do want osprey removed from the game
[13:24] <@duggles> yeah not happening
[13:24] <@Sniper> I'm just not pushing that hard
[13:24] <@duggles> make osprey2
[13:24] <@duggles> then it will be considered :PO
[13:24] <@duggles> :P *
[13:24] <@Sniper> I do want to eventually get back to mapping
[13:24] <MirroR> well its really bad
[13:24] <MirroR> in my opinion
[13:24] <@Sniper> Osprey 2 was actually just a giant test bed for svencoop features
[13:24] <@duggles> can you make ausprey?
[13:24] <@duggles> which is just osprey, but upside down?
[13:25] <@Sniper> trigger_setorigin, rocket grunts, osprey helicopter soldier options, pathing entities, trigger_track_goal, env_global_light_control, so many new entities were created for that map.
[13:26] <@Sniper> har har
[13:26] <@Sniper> Err, global_light_control rather
[13:26] <@Sniper> That entity is pretty useful, lets you turn out the lights on the level
[13:28] <@Sniper> I think literally no one has used it though >_<
[13:30] <MirroR> havent seen it being used
[13:30] <@Sniper> http://steamcommunity.com/app/225840/discussions/0/350532795330464207/?ctp=2
[13:30] * CreepyInpu (~Alexander@5a9bf7cc:735090fe:7d935479:IP6) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
[13:31] <@Sniper> My answer wasn't good enough. Dr. Rhubarb doesn't seem to want to hear the answer regarding grenade jumping.
[13:31] <Aurora^> As I have apologised for overreacting, I'm not trying to say I wasn't in the wrong, but I feel it's quite inappropriate to say my actions reflect that of an authoritative dictator when I asked my custom content removed in response to being exiled
[13:31] <@Sniper> One could make the argument because other people worked on the map with you.
[13:32] <@Sniper> Just like how I work on Sven Co-op with other people.
[13:32] <@Sniper> I can't cease the mod's development.
[13:32] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@ip24-254-61-63.br.br.cox.net) has joined #svencoop
[13:32] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@ip24-254-61-63.br.br.cox.net) Quit (Registered)
[13:32] * Bucky (~Bucky2156@gamesurge-efcbd5f0.br.br.cox.net) has joined #svencoop
[13:33] <Aurora^> No one can exile you though
[13:33] <Aurora^> And on to that -
[13:33] <@Sniper> Again I'm not attacking you
[13:34] <Aurora^> Can you not see how much time several people have invested in the game? It's their stuff that brings the life to it, onto the skeleton you've assembled
[13:34] <@Sniper> That can't be a real question
[13:34] <@Sniper> That looks more like a statement
[13:34] <Aurora^> But you've told that people are just going to have to deal with it, that that's life, and the sun will rise tomorrow.
[13:35] <Aurora^> Maybe you should care more about their opinion of how the development is ran than you do currently?
[13:35] <@Sniper> I mean yeah, if you want to take what I said as a blanket statement regarding the stupidity that is this event, sure
[13:35] <@Sniper> If you are implying that I don't care about the game or community or other team members, you're just being an ass
[13:36] <@Sniper> I don't need to sit here and be attacked for stuff I've explained to death
[13:37] <Aurora^> <@Sniper> Basically at this point, I really don't give a damn what people's opinions are about our "development practices"
[13:37] <Aurora^> I'm talking about this
[13:37] <@Sniper> Yeah
[13:37] <@Sniper> What we do in our own homes is our business
[13:37] <@Sniper> That doesn't imply we're doing anything bad
[13:38] <@Sniper> But no one has a right to say how we should spend our time
[13:38] <Aurora^> Either you care about the community, take their opinions on board, and appreciate the free time they're investing in your game by making maps, scripts, hosting servers, and the like... or, you don't.
[13:38] <@Sniper> The level of arrogance over the fact that you think you have a say over how we should behave is astounding
[13:39] <@Sniper> The fact that you want to continue to believe that the team doesn't care is even more shocking
[13:39] <@Sniper> And you have based your opinion on nothing but flare ups and outbursts from the game's development
[13:39] <Aurora^> Shocking, astounding
[13:39] <@Sniper> As if we are some kind of fucking aliens that are so bizarre in the world
[13:39] <@Sniper> Give me a break
[13:40] <@Sniper> Get off your high horse and stop thinking the world is going to end
[13:40] <Aurora^> I don't think the world is going to end, I'm just pointing out that you should care about this one thing, which I quoted you as saying you don't care about
[13:40] <@Sniper> As it stands right now, people in the community have formed opinions.
[13:40] <@Sniper> I can't change people's minds.
[13:40] <Aurora^> You can
[13:41] <@Sniper> People are unreasonable
[13:41] <@Sniper> Yourself included
[13:41] <Aurora^> Socially you wield more power than you are perhaps aware of
[13:41] <@Sniper> And as I've said, you are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of
[13:41] <Aurora^> you can use it to turn this thing around
[13:41] <Aurora^> I'm suggesting it'd be a good thing to do
[13:41] <@Sniper> So you should just check yourself out first
[13:42] <MirroR> i see this so childish "you have done this you cant blame me doing my stuff"
[13:42] <MirroR> here i see who is the really arrogant now
[13:42] <@Sniper> Yeah, you are
[13:42] <@Sniper> You're attacking someone that works on a project for free
[13:42] <@Sniper> You're pretty disgusting
[13:42] <Aurora^> Why do you always seek flaws out in everyone else when people are addressing you directly? There was a time to have a discussion about me, and that was probably around when I made my apology. I said 'hello' to you in private a few times with no response.
[13:43] <Aurora^> Now that time has passed.
[13:43] <@Sniper> Aurora: Why do you seek flaws in me?
[13:43] <@Sniper> You're just a hypocrite, and your arguments fall flat on their face but you don't want to listen
[13:43] <Aurora^> How am I hypocrite?
[13:43] <MirroR> i am disgusting personality but atleast im saying my opinions and trying to be civil but is it possible to be civil when there is this kinda lies,and suddenly someone jumps in and turns convo in other way
[13:43] <@Sniper> We already went through this
[13:44] <@Sniper> Aurora^: You don't have humility.
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[13:44] <Aurora^> How come I don't?
[13:45] <@Sniper> Because you're attacking me for something I explained. The answer isn't good enough.
[13:45] <@Sniper> You don't like my answer, you don't like me, you don't like that I'm working on the game.
[13:45] <@Sniper> You think the team is full of assholes
[13:45] <@Sniper> You think we hate the game
[13:45] <@Sniper> You think Sven Co-op is doomed
[13:45] <@Sniper> You think Sam was the best person on the planet to work on the game
[13:45] <@Sniper> You think Sam is an angel
[13:45] <@Sniper> I could go on
[13:45] <Aurora^> If you could get into my head, my thoughts are quite different
[13:45] <@Sniper> You're blind
[13:45] <@Sniper> You're ignoring the facts
[13:46] <@Sniper> We're all trying to be honest here
[13:46] <@Sniper> Again, you're being a hypocrite
[13:46] <@Sniper> I'm supposed to accept what you have to say, but you can't accept my discussion points
[13:46] <@Sniper> This is specifically why it's impossible to reason with anyone on this subject
[13:47] <Aurora^> If Sam has been an arsehole in your opinion, then can we get the context for that?
[13:47] <@Sniper> You either believe what the team has said, or you think we're full of shit
[13:47] <@Sniper> It's incredibly inappropriate to assume that anyone should give any more time to this matter than what has already been done
[13:47] <Aurora^> No, that's wrong. I think Sam did become a bit possessive of angelscript and this was perhaps reflected in the fact he didn't document it
[13:48] <Aurora^> Which would make it difficult for others to work on it
[13:48] <@duggles> there has been a lot of drama over this whole debacle
[13:48] <@Sniper> This is the first time I have ever heard you admit some humility on this subject
[13:48] <@Sniper> Thank you for understanding
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[13:50] <Aurora^> However you've said Sam has been combative, and please understand that the only thing I've to go by to determine if that's true or not, is just that. No one in the public including myself can see that. If you think that context would make people empathise with your position better, then why not share it?
[13:50] <@Sniper> We could do that
[13:50] <@Sniper> We could also fabricate stories
[13:50] <@duggles> Why should we be posting internal chats? They have always been private
[13:50] <@Sniper> I'm sure everything would be considered a lie, as it already has been
[13:51] <@Sniper> The fact is we worked with sam for a few years
[13:51] <@Sniper> It wasn't terrible the entire length of our relationship with him
[13:52] <Aurora^> You say everything would be considered a lie, but surely you should at least try?
[13:53] <@Sniper> If our word isn't good enough, then nothing is
[13:53] <@Sniper> This is just a huge waste of time
[13:53] <Aurora^> But all you've said is that he's been a combative dick
[13:53] <Aurora^> am I supposed to just swallow that then
[13:53] <@Sniper> Yes
[13:53] <@Sniper> because our word would be the same as copying and pasting transcripts
[13:53] <@Sniper> Maybe we edited them
[13:54] <@Sniper> There's no way for us to win the argument if no one wants to listen
[13:54] <@Sniper> The only person believed is Sam
[13:54] <@Sniper> Sam is the winner
[13:54] <@Sniper> Sam can do no wrong
[13:55] <@Sniper> People in the public have already made their choice
[13:55] <@Sniper> As stupid and ill informed as it is
[13:55] <Aurora^> He's admitted himself that he got too angry and made insults, and isn't making himself better by choosing to go through with this
[13:55] <@duggles> well shouldn't that be sufficient?
[13:56] <@duggles> given he continues to cherrypick chat logs to attack people
[13:56] <@duggles> shouldn't that be giving a sufficient description of his personality and attitude towards the team?
[13:57] <@duggles> (I wholeheartedly expect some sort of response to that on the steam subreddit)
[13:57] <Aurora^> But his reasons - he's given many, and those are primarily concerned with the development practises and the lead developer's attitude. Perhaps getting angry didn't help his case, but those things should still be addressed
[13:58] <Aurora^> No?
[13:58] <@duggles> There were attempts to address some of the concerns he had
[13:58] <@duggles> we had a very long meeting about this back near the start of the year
[13:58] <@duggles> and we came up with a lot of ideas that were intended to help and solve the problems there were outlined
[13:59] <Aurora^> I'm not trying to act like an angry, entitled customer here. I'm just a player and content creator, among many others, concerned with where the game is going and whether it's worth investing time in it or not.
[13:59] <@duggles> but it ended up not happening because sam quit anyway
[13:59] <@duggles> (that said, some of the ideas still were set up)
[14:01] <Aurora^> Is Sam cherrypicking the logs?
[14:01] <@duggles> Aurora^: i can understand where you're coming from. whenever there is controversy in an organization, people who are involved get concerned. but the game is still going, there are still coders, mappers, artists, and testers on the team. there's a healthy playerbase (it's been pretty stable for the last month or two) and there are a bunch of features that are going to be implemented
[14:01] <@duggles> yeah, ofc he is.
[14:01] <+Misfire> looks like a direct response to what you said on the sc forums...
[14:02] <+Misfire> first
[14:02] <Aurora^> What do the unedited logs look like then?
[14:02] <@duggles> he was trying to discredit me by saying i didn't understand some dll linkage behaviour of extern? let's pull out about 10 lines of chat where i admitted i didn't know that operatin system behaviour
[14:03] <@duggles> he was trying to discredit me by saying I was lying about the linux client? he pulls out some log about me and dynamite saying the client is "working" (we did mention there were bugs in the log)
[14:04] <@Sniper> The linux client definitely isn't ready for launch yet
[14:04] <@duggles> he wants to discredit sniper about the precache model function? let's pull out the old 'john carmack' quote. But let's ignore the suggestion i made about having a fail-softly function to query this thing.
[14:27] <@Sniper> <Aurora^> I'm not trying to act like an angry, entitled customer here. I'm just a player and content creator, among many others, concerned with where the game is going and whether it's worth investing time in it or not.
[14:27] <@Sniper> And as I keep telling everyone, the team hasn't left the building
[14:27] <@Sniper> Sam isn't the reason why Sven Co-op exists
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[14:28] <@Sniper> I already have a few graphical updates in the queue
[14:28] <@Sniper> We have other people doing things as well
[14:29] <@Sniper> Nothing has changed
[14:29] <@Sniper> When you work on a game like this, you need to produce content in ALL areas
[14:32] <@Sniper> I'm really more tweaked than anything that people think Sam's departure means Angelscript is doomed
[14:32] <@Sniper> I'm the asshole that brought angelscript to the game. Sam implemented it and I helped where I could in my time constraints.
[14:32] <@Sniper> I made giant posts about why we should go with Angelscript instead of Lua
[14:33] <@Sniper> Angelscript has my full support - if I was dead we wouldn't have added it to the game.
[14:33] <@Sniper> I don't know how else to explain this topic here
[14:34] <@Sniper> What the facts are is that Angelscript was MY project
[14:34] <@Sniper> I was entirely *responsible* for the entire damn thing
[14:35] <@Sniper> I knew it would be better handled by someone else (given time constraints at the time), so I assigned it to Sam
[14:35] <@Sniper> Sam did a great job (initially) and we gave him the title of angelscript dev
[14:35] <@Sniper> The problem is Sam didn't finish angelscript's implementation
[14:35] <@Sniper> He started working on other side projects in the game
[14:36] <@Sniper> Those are the facts
[14:36] <@Sniper> Gun to my head, pull the trigger, facts.
[15:26] <@Sniper> "A lead programmer is a software engineer in charge of one or more software projects. Alternative titles include development lead, technical lead, lead software engineer, software design engineer lead (SDE lead), software development manager, software manager, or lead application developer."
[15:26] <@Sniper> I think I'm fitting my job description pretty well
[15:27] <@Sniper> "Although the responsibilities are primarily technical, lead programmers also generally serve as an interface between the programmers and management, have ownership of development plans and have supervisorial responsibilities in delegating work and ensuring that software projects come in on time and under budget. Lead programmers also serve as technical advisers to management and provide
[15:27] <@Sniper> programming perspective on requirements. Typically a lead programmer will oversee a development team of between two and ten programmers, with three to five often considered the ideal size. Teams larger than ten programmers tend to become unmanageable without additional structure. A lead programmer normally reports to a manager with overall project or section responsibility, such as a director
[15:27] <@Sniper> or product unit manager (PUM)."
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