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  1. Dean (BetKing Admin), [23/05/2019 at 8:29:51 PM]:
  2. Will wait until a few investors join before posting or until people start discussing
  3.  
  4. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:03:41 AM]:
  5. hi dean. i read through your email and want to start the conversation here. my tldr; is that: site is not going very well but still can make annually $680k profit. but you think it's not worth the time and you want to close it down. I personally either want compensation if you decide to close it or you keep it running until we have our initial investment back. otherwise it's a clear scam. I understand perfectly how it is to try and build software and then not get many clients but still even if it generates profit you need to keep it up or reimbursh investors.
  6.  
  7. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:06:47 AM]:
  8. "but still can make annually $680k profit"
  9. expected based on the previous 3 months profit yes. But that is split 50/50 with bankroll investors and the buyback pools to buy back tokens with.
  10. also, 1/3 of the profit came from 1 player, who has stopped playing. We can't hope that we get one highroller every few months, it's not sustainable and not guaranteed.
  11. this weeks traffic is already very poor compared to what we were seeing and that is a concern.
  12.  
  13. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:07:42 AM]:
  14. it may be a concert but during the ICO you never said that you need an X amount of profit to run the website. What is the cutoff limit that you are personally not interested in running it?
  15.  
  16. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:09:17 AM]:
  17. " I personally either want compensation if you decide to close it or you keep it running until we have our initial investment back. "
  18. there would be no compensation if closed. The business raised funds, used them to try and grow and see a return, we didn't see a return and the site pretty much died. Zero profit in a year. What we did with new platform was one last attempt idea to try and turn it round, which looked like it was working, but it's still quite a fragile situation.
  19. If it's the same by end of the year then it's pretty safe to assume that the business failed and failed businesses don't stay open.
  20.  
  21. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:09:45 AM]:
  22. that was stated in the document I emailed and also pointed out that we should discuss that
  23.  
  24. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:10:19 AM]:
  25. failed businesses don't generate $680k profit. What is the current rate of expenses? if the software is done then maintenance would not be expensive for sure
  26.  
  27. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:10:34 AM]:
  28. we haven't generated 680k profit though have we
  29.  
  30. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:11:05 AM]:
  31. what are exactly the money that you have left and what are the running costs?
  32.  
  33. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:11:31 AM]:
  34. let's say we are in silicon valley. there are many companies/startups that are running for years without profit. the ones that do have profit they just don't close down, otherwise the SEC intervenes.
  35.  
  36. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:11:53 AM]:
  37. so how are the reserves and i didn't read anywhere about running costs. i am a dev so server costs cannot be high.
  38.  
  39. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:12:20 AM]:
  40. again, as explained, there are no funds of the initial ico left and the running costs currntly, now that we have had to let go of all stuff,s top all marketing etc is only around £1000 a month
  41.  
  42. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:13:07 AM]:
  43. this is far different than a silicone valley business with vc money and contacts and no one bought shares in a company remember so the SEC has nothing to be concerned with here
  44.  
  45. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:13:45 AM]:
  46. so you know how much a server can cost and the extra stuff like cloudflare/github etc etc, that's only about 1000 a month depending on traffic, tests etc
  47.  
  48. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:14:20 AM]:
  49. yes 1k is reasonable burn rate
  50.  
  51. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:14:42 AM]:
  52. but if there are projected profits for the year you can't just close withou any compensation
  53.  
  54. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:14:58 AM]:
  55. just because $100k is not enough for you personally because you are a rich bitcoiner.. i hope you understand this
  56.  
  57. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:15:05 AM]:
  58. there are some responsibilities
  59.  
  60. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:15:15 AM]:
  61. if you are negative in profit then yes.
  62.  
  63. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:15:24 AM]:
  64. The point of this group was to figure out how we proceed to actually make sure all investors get their money back (I'm not looking to get the $1 million i put in personally as the biggest investor) and not for people to make demands of payments. Anyone who is doing that will be removed
  65.  
  66. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:16:04 AM]:
  67. I don't think kicking people out would make your business better.
  68.  
  69. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:16:31 AM]:
  70. yes but that is only based on the new launch, if we look at the year before that the projected profit would have been closer to zero, so as I said it's a critical turning point, we want to at least keep it going how it has been in the past few months or improve it and we need help to do so. we need steady traffic mainly from smaller depositing players, not relying on a highroller every few months
  71.  
  72. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:17:56 AM]:
  73. well I hope you can keep traffic coming and I trust you will not close a business turning profit. Noone invests in companies that would close down because the profit is not high enough. It is a given when investors invest that if the company can generate any kind of profit it doesn't shut down
  74.  
  75. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:17:58 AM]:
  76. I just told you I lost $1 million here.
  77. It's not about what I feel is enough, but we all have to realise there is oportunity cost here. If the site was making $100 a year should I work for the rest of my life running it and give you the $100 a year? Or is it smarter to move on to something else and try and make money there, which if was successful then we could work a way out for BKB investors to get compensation
  78.  
  79. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:18:46 AM]:
  80. what happens if we make $1000 from now until december? stay open?
  81.  
  82. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:20:01 AM]:
  83. no that doesn't cover expenses. that's why I was asking what is "your" number? if you make $100k? is that ok?
  84.  
  85. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:20:11 AM]:
  86. how do you decide on this?
  87.  
  88. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:20:22 AM]:
  89. it actually would, it's why this group is already doesn't have all bkb investors in it. There isn't any point in inviting people who are going to waste time and not provide anything productive for us to go on
  90.  
  91. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:20:53 AM]:
  92. I've wasted a lot of time already on people like that and I don't intend to keep doing it
  93.  
  94. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:21:27 AM]:
  95. I'm not looking to decide. It's open for discussion with everyone here.
  96.  
  97. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:21:40 AM]:
  98. I don't think anybody will sit here and understand that if I make valid points you kick me out and that's ok.
  99.  
  100. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:22:10 AM]:
  101. I never said I was going to kick you out
  102.  
  103. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:22:38 AM]:
  104. yes exactly and this is my input. you need to decide on a number that can keep the site up. obviously it needs to cover expenses but if it's larger than X you can't just shut it down and we lose everything.
  105.  
  106. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:22:50 AM]:
  107. Maybe it would help as a starting point to talk about a risk appetite to keeping it going
  108.  
  109. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:23:34 AM]:
  110. To me there are optimisations available to make the business more profitable but let's get a sense of scale
  111.  
  112. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:25:02 AM]:
  113. Well there is the time cost too remember. If the site were to cover all expenses of what keeps it up, server etc, and it makes $100 on top of that. Then it's not going to recover anything for anyone and it still takes time of answering support and processing tx etc. So that would clearly show that it isn't worth it.
  114.  
  115. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:25:41 AM]:
  116. If after all expenses we were able to use $100,000 a year to buy back tokens and it's not taking much time to do so then obviously it's better to leave it open
  117.  
  118. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:26:22 AM]:
  119. but we have contradicting interests here. obviously for us even buying back $20k/year is more beneficial than shutting down and getting 0
  120.  
  121. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:26:33 AM]:
  122. If hat 100k a year means me spending 14 hours a day on it then maybe not, becauce that still takes 20 years to just break even for everyone and that to me is a massive waste of opportunity where we could be looking to do something that can recover faster than 20 years
  123.  
  124. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:27:26 AM]:
  125. in investing in anything you have to take in to consideration the risk. 20K a years is too little and it would in fact be closed and everyone would have to accept that that was the risk and move on
  126.  
  127. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:27:35 AM]:
  128. and taking some years of work to give money back to investors if you burnt through $5M of funds really does sound the ethical way to go
  129.  
  130. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:27:50 AM]:
  131. not 100 years though
  132.  
  133. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:28:01 AM]:
  134. and working for free for 100 years
  135.  
  136. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:28:09 AM]:
  137. so the problem is that you here define what is the risk and what you are willing to sacrifice either we get something or 0. you have the knife and you have the mellon as we say.
  138.  
  139. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:28:25 AM]:
  140. it's not for free. we gave you $5M ..
  141.  
  142. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:28:41 AM]:
  143. This isn't getting us anywhere though is it?
  144.  
  145. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:29:05 AM]:
  146. This is you basically saying I need to work for free for the rest of my life for you and that's that
  147.  
  148. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:29:17 AM]:
  149. no matter how much profit the business is making
  150.  
  151. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:29:40 AM]:
  152. I am basically saying that even if there is little profit you need to keep the site up to repay us. You can also shut it down *while* it is profitable but this is borderline scam
  153.  
  154. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:30:54 AM]:
  155. I also didn't say I was looking to shut it down today, far from it, I said we need to give it a reasonable time and see what we think is the right move based on the profit by then. So waiting until Jan 2020 and seeing where we are then is reasonable.
  156.  
  157. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:31:19 AM (24/05/19, 1:31:40 AM)]:
  158. My view is slightly different. It needs to have a meaningful profit, enough to support some staff (wash its face). which to me is 200k+ at least for the next rolling 12 months
  159.  
  160. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 1:31:19 AM]:
  161. Aris, I'm not sure you're actually contributing anything useful here.
  162.  
  163. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:32:16 AM]:
  164. Getting the business to a fundamentally profitable place within 12 months is a foundation for the future
  165.  
  166. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:32:31 AM]:
  167. It also means Dean can draw a salary to support himself
  168.  
  169. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:32:38 AM]:
  170. And keep it going
  171.  
  172. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:33:49 AM]:
  173. @Aris, as the email said, this email only went to people who had bought at least 50,000 BKB (I won;t say how much anyone actually bought, that's up to them) so you can't claim anyone here is not an investor
  174.  
  175. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:34:13 AM]:
  176. This
  177.  
  178. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:34:46 AM]:
  179. the risk is when you invest in unprofitable businesses. I am trying to set a threshold of what is the minimum profit that we consider the business profitable and it should stay open. there is no such number now that leaves dear Dean say effectively "hey I am not working for less than $200k per year guys sorry" which is just not enough for me. Numbers.
  180.  
  181. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:34:47 AM]:
  182. so $5000 roughly minimum investment. It helps keep out people that would likely be wasting our time or not fully understand the situation or have no real expertise to help. I also excluded some people I knew would just be negative and cause us to waste time.
  183.  
  184. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:35:27 AM]:
  185. yes @DeanBK but you only know if there are people here that are your fiends. nobody can verify who is an investor but you. as I said, you have all the cards (or dices) :)
  186.  
  187. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:36:16 AM]:
  188. This starting point is a waste of time
  189.  
  190. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:36:34 AM]:
  191. Not everything is a sham
  192.  
  193. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:36:39 AM (24/05/19, 1:36:46 AM)]:
  194. well now you are being paranoid
  195.  
  196. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:36:57 AM]:
  197. there's no one in this group right now that I have ever even met
  198.  
  199. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:37:08 AM]:
  200. Aris what is your minimum?
  201.  
  202. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:37:39 AM]:
  203. I don't know CCN, it doesn't depend on me. If I have gotten $5M and my site was profitable I would run it indefinately to repay back probably.
  204.  
  205. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:37:53 AM]:
  206. He doesn't have £5m anymore
  207.  
  208. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:38:07 AM]:
  209. It's gone
  210.  
  211. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:38:48 AM]:
  212. I know. So if I have burnt through a lot of money but still the business was a little bit profitable I wouldn't shut it down. Just because I would feel very obliged to pay back investors after I failed to make a good business.
  213.  
  214. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:39:13 AM]:
  215. OK so what's a little bit profit
  216.  
  217. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:39:15 AM]:
  218. To you
  219.  
  220. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:40:08 AM]:
  221. does it matter? Dean should come up with a number. that's what I am saying from the beggining. did you read?
  222.  
  223. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:40:10 AM]:
  224. but it was not profitable for a year and a half almost, it's only made some in past few months but it's not a guarntee giving the current situation that that means it will stay making that or be a realistic projection of profit to come over the next years. Hence why the group was created so that we can discuss practical ways of trying to make sure it does
  225.  
  226. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:40:52 AM]:
  227. Btw why did you stop tthe sports betting? it was there right? i pretty much remember wanting to bet on boxing matches but i think i didn't
  228.  
  229. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 1:41:06 AM]:
  230. the reasons why are in the document
  231.  
  232. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:41:11 AM]:
  233. ^
  234.  
  235. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:41:14 AM]:
  236. or formula 1. the software is very easy to make and you can just copy paste bwin odds and take even a bit more % out of it
  237.  
  238. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:41:39 AM]:
  239. yea dice will never cut it to a very profitable business. and that's not what we invested in. it was a sports betting poker etc site
  240.  
  241. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:42:11 AM]:
  242. "what we" are you sure? It was dice alone that made the site 7400 bitcoin, not sports
  243.  
  244. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:42:31 AM]:
  245. "the software is very easy to make" want to help make it and we can add it to the site if that's the case?
  246.  
  247. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:42:56 AM]:
  248. well since i didn't burn through ico money, i would help if i get paid. and no it's not the same
  249.  
  250. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:43:06 AM]:
  251. "copy paste bwin odds and take even a bit more % out of it" maybe that's where I went wrong, the first time I tried that I used william hills odds. The second time I used pinnacles
  252.  
  253. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:43:27 AM]:
  254. the 3rd time I used a 3rd party provider. all 3 times we lost to sharp players
  255.  
  256. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:43:32 AM]:
  257. well they need to be updated too. i know a lot about sport odds btw
  258.  
  259. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:43:59 AM]:
  260. we were updating them every minute or less
  261.  
  262. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:44:02 AM]:
  263. you need to have some algo that updates or limits the funds so non of the 3 outcomes gets overloaded
  264.  
  265. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:44:32 AM]:
  266. or you can get the market avg. i still to this date have code on my pc that is gathering football sports odds from 5-10 different sites
  267.  
  268. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:44:35 AM]:
  269. like a crawler
  270.  
  271. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:45:48 AM]:
  272. "Soon after launch we will add sports betting, more casino games, poker games and tournaments and native mobile apps." this is from the ICO ann
  273.  
  274. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:45:56 AM]:
  275. i said in the doc and email that I am not expecting anyone here to work for free. Though general advice/direction and voting for free would be appreciated. If you feel you would be able to help create a profitable sports book software for us you can email me your cv and we can review it
  276.  
  277. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:46:39 AM]:
  278. reviewing the CV of investors in case a failing startup wants to hire them it's quite funny :)
  279.  
  280. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:47:35 AM]:
  281. Aris suggest you take a break
  282.  
  283. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:47:46 AM]:
  284. You are coming across as emotional and angry
  285.  
  286. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:47:55 AM]:
  287. Which isn't going to lead us anywhere
  288.  
  289. Alex, [24/05/2019 at 1:48:10 AM]:
  290. yes I will.although im probably the only one with startup experience and sports bettting odds and rational but good luck. i'll check back in a few months to see if we are still at 0.
  291.  
  292. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:49:04 AM]:
  293. I'll be back later but I think as a starting point Dean it'd be helpful what want to see by year end to keep it going
  294.  
  295. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:49:19 AM]:
  296. Appreciate $100 profit doesn't cut it
  297.  
  298. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 1:49:22 AM]:
  299. So what does?
  300.  
  301. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:50:45 AM]:
  302. removed aris, clearly not going to be any benefit to us
  303.  
  304. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 1:55:32 AM]:
  305. Well I'm more thinking of time here than anything.
  306. If the site is making $100k a year (as in, we can use $100k to buy back tokens from investors) and it requires very little work (minimal support, topping up wallets now and again) then yes that would imo still be better than closing. It wouldn't really get back everyones initial investment though.
  307.  
  308. If it was the same but I had to work 14 hours every day on it and all that work still wasn't getting us any more profit and I wasn't being paid then I don't think it is good to stay open. Because to me, with at least dev and crypto experience and a number of ideas ouside gambling, that it would be better to work on something else that may see a much bigger return for the time invested and if it was something successful then there may be possibilities of compensating initial BKB holders that way.
  309.  
  310. The aim here though is to discuss options and come up with a plan or strategy on the next steps to take so that we actually have a chance of seeing more profit on BetKing and not really thinking of closing anyway
  311.  
  312. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 2:04:42 AM]:
  313. OK thats a helpful perspective
  314.  
  315. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 3:24:37 AM (24/05/19, 3:25:07 AM)]:
  316. Hi Dean. Thanks for the transparency and for giving it another try. I'll toss here my thoughts (that are mainly inspired by another dice website: just-dice):
  317. - Bitcoin is currently showing volatility and people are interested. So I'd be optimistic on the possibility for betking to recover.
  318. - I think that whales are quite important for dice websites, so everything on these websites should entice them to play, allowing them to high-roll and feel the vibe. At the same time they give a lot of advertising.
  319. - I believe the less choices, the better. Ideally just three options to spend money and enjoy time on the website. But maybe only one with Bitcoin.
  320.  
  321. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 3:28:46 AM]:
  322. That said, I feel we miss some key info:
  323. - how the competition is making it? Primedice? Bitdice?
  324. - What are the channels leading people to play on the website? Twitter? Ads? Word of mouth?
  325. - What does the public want? Are Chinese people playing?
  326.  
  327. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:34:27 AM]:
  328. " I think that whales are quite important for dice websites," yes but we can't rely on them just randomly coming. We need steady traffic and ways to at least find and attract whales.
  329.  
  330. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:35:11 AM]:
  331. "- how the competition is making it? Primedice? Bitdice?"
  332. i don't know. I feel I've tried everything at this point. I don't see any real differences and there's not really anything on any other site that we haven't done before. Keep in mind we were the biggest dice site for 2 years after just dice closed.
  333.  
  334. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:35:42 AM]:
  335. "What are the channels leading people to play on the website? Twitter? Ads? Word of mouth?"
  336. as far as I can see we cant do paid ads on twitter, facebook, google because we dont have a licence, though still some other sites get around this somehow
  337.  
  338. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:36:02 AM]:
  339. "What does the public want?" wish I know, they don't exactly express much opinion
  340.  
  341. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:36:33 AM]:
  342. I can post screenshots from google analytics, you can see from that how terrible traffic is
  343.  
  344. traffic stats by channel since feb 14th
  345.  
  346. traffic stats by channel for past week
  347.  
  348. traffic stats by referrinf sites since feb 14th
  349.  
  350. traffic stats by referrinf sites since past week
  351.  
  352. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:41:31 AM]:
  353. so 3-400 visits per day, very low for any website really
  354.  
  355. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 3:43:25 AM]:
  356. I know we're saying opposite things. My point is, *when* they come, they should find an attractive environment that keeps them playing. Usually, high rolling, but also "personal praising" or VIP-feeling. Doesn't need to be necessarily sycophants, but just acknowledging them. It's a bit like those monetizing models for apps, where it's free-to-play, but when you start being lured in the game, they give thousands of options for spending your money.
  357.  
  358. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:43:56 AM]:
  359. yeah agree with that
  360.  
  361. by country since feb 14th
  362.  
  363. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:57:20 AM]:
  364. I don't mind giving access to analytics data if anyone here specialises in seo/marketing
  365.  
  366. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 3:57:54 AM]:
  367. i'm only familiar with basically what is in the screenshots and to me it just shows small traffic and refferrals that don't convert to depositing players
  368.  
  369. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 4:31:39 AM]:
  370. Thanks for all this data. Not sure if Indonesia and Nigeria could be new markets. I will try to think to some easy and practical idea and I will follow the discussion here. I wish I had some useful contacts that help, but I don't.
  371.  
  372. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 4:32:25 AM]:
  373. nigeria will mainly be because a new-ish site got the name betking.com and started running a fiat sportsbook there
  374.  
  375. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 4:32:50 AM]:
  376. indonesia are usually made up of people looking for faucet to get free btc, not really depositing players often
  377.  
  378. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 4:40:18 AM]:
  379. Another thing. Please try to not over-stress over this Dean. Apparently you worked a lot, you tried many things and also, possibly, you may feel the responsibility for what wasn't working. However, too much of stress is not productive, it's actually harmful. Just ignore those "scam allegations", they are worth as much as the paper they're written on. On the other side, if you think you did some mistake, well, that's part of the game, and not repeating those is basically the only thing you can achieve (and many people actually never do).
  380.  
  381. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 4:41:43 AM]:
  382. If you were a poker player, you surely know how tilt is bad and how much reviewing yourself is important. Just that. But then, when you play, you need to be continuously open-minded.
  383.  
  384. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 4:43:30 AM]:
  385. thanks, i have let the stress get to me a lot more than I should
  386.  
  387. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:51:48 AM]:
  388. Hey Dean, just had a chance to review the doc and catch up.
  389.  
  390. Thanks for taking the time to bring us together to discuss. It’s a tough spot and there are hard calls to make. Your lawyers make a good case for shutting down and I appreciate that you’re considering alternatives first.
  391.  
  392. I’m happy to share my personal views and opinions, but I have no market data or analytics to back them up. I’m also happy to provide my business insight fwiw.
  393.  
  394. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:55:04 AM]:
  395. Personal opinions - Being stateside, I can tell you that with increased scrutiny over IRS, SEC and other regulatory oversight, there are a lot of folks that appear to be taking less risks. The more folks learn that bitcoin is not anonymous, the less risky they seem.
  396.  
  397. It is illegal to gamble online in many/most areas of the US (last time I checked) and as such any USA player would be less likely to use the site. I suspect an account-less, anonymous service would give all players that value privacy some peace of mind. Perhaps with monero or zcash, etc
  398.  
  399. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:57:40 AM]:
  400. From a business perspective, the first thing I would do personally is to seek out a market partner to survey your suspected target market and just straight up ask them “where/why do you play?”. A good partner could help with the right questions and rewards. A lot of times, it’s as simple as asking... but that’s not easy when you can’t get in front of your customers to ask
  401.  
  402. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 4:58:51 AM]:
  403. I know a some guys that run a specialized/boutique firm that markets fantasy sports. I can reach out to them as well for some feedback/insight
  404.  
  405. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:00:11 AM]:
  406. Also, not promoting anything shady here. Just bringing this perspective up as a potential customer. Perhaps there are other customers that can legally gamble online but do not choose to do so since they cannot maintain privacy on chain
  407.  
  408. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:01:07 AM]:
  409. thanks for that. Agree on the US part. We actually block US ip's from depositing/playing
  410.  
  411. Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 5:01:30 AM]:
  412. Can u unblock them or there legal issue with that
  413.  
  414. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:02:07 AM]:
  415. in the doc when i mention building a network of sites, an advantage there is we can try new things and the first protorype I started working on doesn't have accounts or signup, just login url like we had in 2014 like just-dice.com has. Though you can add username/password if you like
  416.  
  417. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:02:32 AM]:
  418. If you run on-chain/dapp, it will be hard to maintain that type of geofilter. But I get the reason for doing it
  419.  
  420. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:04:24 AM]:
  421. Even something as simple as letting users buy bkb with anon coins could help with the privacy side, so long as no kyc is needed. I would assume the privacy advocates would already be using aliases and vpns. But bitcoin is super traceable
  422.  
  423. Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 5:04:27 AM]:
  424. I understand wanting to leave business behind if no profit made or not enough but my one gripe is 6 months seems to little of a time to judge when you already said in your briefing that 1/3rd of the profit was from 1 player, which shows how much variance a 6 month window could have
  425.  
  426. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:04:32 AM]:
  427. I block US because they didn;t (not sure if still same) allow people to gamble online. Almost all sites block US.
  428. I block UK too because you need a licence from UKGC to allow players from UK. I can't advertise specifically here either.
  429.  
  430. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:05:23 AM]:
  431. yes but we've been open since september 2017 and only just got that. If we were still making that in 6 months then yeah that would be alright, but what if we make nothing from now until then?
  432.  
  433. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:06:05 AM]:
  434. is there anything illegal about players betting on on chain dapps? there's no way to know where the players bet from and I wouldn't be processing the bets myself on any servers
  435.  
  436. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:07:25 AM]:
  437. If it isn’t owned and controlled by a company or individual, then it’s a huge grey area in the states. IE, if it’s open source and nobody claims responsibility for the project. Lots of uncertainty so far though since we don’t have legal precedent yet
  438.  
  439. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:07:50 AM]:
  440. If a company controls it, then it’s fair game for legal death
  441.  
  442. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:08:07 AM]:
  443. and just in case there was any confusion, the network of sites idea didn't specifically mean on chain, they could still be off chain like bet king
  444.  
  445. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:08:54 AM]:
  446. i think that's a problem with eos on chain, my understanding could be way off, but it seems that even though it's on chain it's still the companies server that is processing bets? Bitcoin/eth on chain don't have that problem
  447.  
  448. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:09:39 AM]:
  449. If, for instance, someone were to grab some open source on chain betting/oracle code and spin up a contract on chain that uses BKB without consulting you, getting permission, paying fees... then there’s eff all you can do about it
  450.  
  451. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:10:38 AM]:
  452. that's true
  453.  
  454. Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 5:11:31 AM]:
  455. Bitcoin talk mess needs to be cleared out or fought with, That is where a good portion of former business was lost, when the trolls and haters took over and hurt reputation. Couple ways we can about it, do nothing and let it continue, have investors fight back with more good words than haters can say bad, or Dean you try and answer all their stupid questions without flipping out :). Also another idea is if you were ok with It Dean I could run my own sportsbook through betking and have threads on forums, where I settle with people via betking tip function
  456.  
  457. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:12:01 AM (24/05/19, 5:12:25 AM)]:
  458. I guess it depends on what BKB is being used for. If it isn’t integrated into the operation of a casino and instead was just being used as a financial-like instrument (like Maker/DAI) then you would be fine running that dApp as a company
  459.  
  460. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:15:16 AM]:
  461. "Dean you try and answer all their stupid questions without flipping out"
  462. I did though, many many times. It just gets drowned out because they bury my posts with another 20 shit posts and then misquote things i said. Every single concern raised has been asnwered more than once by me
  463.  
  464. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:15:45 AM]:
  465. "I could run my own sportsbook through betking and have threads on forums, where I settle with people via betking tip function"
  466. certainly feel free to try it. I'm not sure what downside there is?
  467.  
  468. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:16:47 AM]:
  469. well, it's BKT now, and the point of it is to get fee discounts on the platform, reward players with it, allow bets with it and we also use profit to buy it back
  470.  
  471. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:17:11 AM]:
  472. it would be good to find other uses for to drive demand for it though so more people, not just site profit, buy it
  473.  
  474. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 5:17:53 AM]:
  475. Hey,
  476.  
  477. just going to get caught up on this thread and then i'll join in on the discussion
  478.  
  479. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:18:04 AM]:
  480. hey, no problem
  481.  
  482. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 5:20:00 AM (24/05/19, 5:20:12 AM)]:
  483. Other options here would be to sell the business which will be hard considering financials and brand damage re:bitcoin talk. Also partnering/merging with other platforms might be attractive. Most of the degens I know are looking for more and more in-depth... degenery. I keep hearing about HRXO and I suspect there are others that might be getting traction.
  484.  
  485. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:20:13 AM]:
  486. btw, unrelated to betking but this is just the sort of thing I was meaning with lost oportunity cost:
  487. http://slither.io/ very simple multiplayer snake like game, makes $100,000 a day
  488. Insane, just via ads and merch on a free to play site.
  489. Obviously there's marketing and stuff but the actual game is so easy to do something like that.
  490. Thought about something like surviv.io (a 2d battle royal game like PUBG). That makes a lt on ads too. Be good to mix that sort of thing with crypto
  491.  
  492. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:22:37 AM]:
  493. partnering/merging. In the doc I mention looking to licence software to other sites, think playtech but in btc space. Though they are obviously leagues ahead of what we can offer.
  494. I messaged about 200 exchanges and other btc casinos (who didn't have dice) but got very few replies. It's a shame because even taking 10% commissioin on profit would add up huge with only a few clients
  495.  
  496. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:38:48 AM]:
  497. "Other options here would be to sell the business which will be hard considering financials and brand damage"
  498. i tried to sell years ago when we had a real good rep and were making money. I didn't really have any contacts though and it was just forum posts and an ad on site
  499.  
  500. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 5:50:21 AM]:
  501. The bitcointalk thread is x really good point I had lost site of
  502.  
  503. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:41:17 AM]:
  504. First off, Dean, I appreciate you putting this group together along with the the recovery plan. This probably would have been a good idea before the EOS token launch.
  505.  
  506. I think we have a few problems:
  507.  
  508. With the new token model there was some form of what I would call dilution. The conversion rate from BKB to BKT should have been much higher. There was no real market for the token and you were able to buy it up or bet mine it very cheaply. I'm not sure on exact numbers but I think I had around $40k worth of bkb left after selling in a couple of buybacks and I think I was able to purchase or bet mine an equivalent amount of BKT for less than $1k.
  509.  
  510. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:41:49 AM]:
  511. It is going to be hard to get help from BKB investors for this reason.
  512.  
  513. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:43:54 AM]:
  514. I think there has been some reputational damage from the bitcointalk forum and from disgruntled past investors. I recently saw a thread on twitter from a high profile poker player. I also don't think this Nigerian Betking.com site is doing us any favors.
  515.  
  516. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:49:20 AM]:
  517. I really don't know what separates some of these high volume sites from us. I think BetKing has a nice clean look and functionality. Maybe these forum posts are really dragging it down.
  518.  
  519. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:50:21 AM]:
  520. I did have a forum post in the works that I wanted to cover investment returns from BetKing but hadn't gotten around to posting it because I was waiting for a day when we were showing large buybacks but that hasn't been the case for the last week or two.
  521.  
  522. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 7:51:03 AM]:
  523. I was hoping to get a lot of the investment back through investing in the bankroll.
  524. I can't see the value in the current BKT model (that doesn't mean there isn't, I just can't see it). I could see lots of value in the dividend model but I guess you changed that because of potential legal implications?
  525.  
  526. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:51:20 AM]:
  527. In hopes that it would attract more investors to generate a bankroll that could take high roller action
  528.  
  529. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 7:52:32 AM]:
  530. I like the idea of licensing out to exchanges, it's quite a great idea actually but how you go about doing it, I don't know
  531.  
  532. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:54:31 AM]:
  533. Licensing out seems like a great idea, I also think the concept of bet mining was also very clever
  534.  
  535. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 7:56:21 AM]:
  536. Anything you can tell us about that one high roller we did have? Country of origin or did you look into his activity on the blockchain or anything like that?
  537.  
  538. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:59:58 AM]:
  539. So this is the post https://twitter.com/MikeMcDonald89/status/1130435205465026560
  540.  
  541. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:00:32 AM]:
  542. Thats he head of the group looking to sue. Obviously they figured after 5 months they had no case otherwise they wouldnt post that
  543.  
  544. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:13:57 AM]:
  545. exactly the sort of shit we don't need
  546.  
  547. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 8:16:00 AM]:
  548. A lot of people made dumb decisions during the last crypto boom, me included. Not many are willing to take responsibility.
  549.  
  550. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:18:04 AM]:
  551. 44k followers and being in poker scene too that is gonna reach a large audience that know me personally too. Worse is, he's ignored me for 5 months, due to lawyers advice, so has not kept up with the changes and never once offered any input or advice on it and I did post about the airdrop/new token a lot before we done it
  552.  
  553. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:40:41 AM]:
  554. "This probably would have been a good idea before the EOS token launch. "
  555. i messaged everyone before that new token launch warning and asking for feedback.
  556.  
  557. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:42:32 AM]:
  558. "With the new token model there was some form of what I would call dilution."
  559. i don't see it that way really. There are more of the new token, but there's only 12.8% in circulation, 25%+ will be burned in august and the rest are promotion.
  560. Sending tokens to 2-300,000 eos accounts with a link to site on them, what other way was there to try and reach that amount of people? A lot of those tokens went to dormant accounts that will never move them I imagine too.
  561. Also, now you might think you have less, but less of something is better than more of absolutely nothing
  562.  
  563. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:43:57 AM]:
  564. "It is going to be hard to get help from BKB investors for this reason." from a certain type of investor and I want to week out all the people like MIke McDonald anyway. If anyone is just going to be negative or try and ruin reputation and fuck things up for other investors then I have no interest in their opinion
  565.  
  566. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:46:51 AM]:
  567. As I stated I could just say fuck it and close the site and we all lose and have to move on. My lawyer told me to do this exact thing. There is no legal obligation here to buy any tokens back.
  568. But you know I don't want that. But cunts like Mike and his group make it very easy to think that way.
  569.  
  570. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:47:17 AM]:
  571. This group was to discuss how we can actually recover the funds not to complain
  572.  
  573. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:48:03 AM]:
  574. I'm off before I do something I regret. Feel free to discuss, leave feedback etc.
  575.  
  576. John Deer, [24/05/2019 at 8:48:28 AM]:
  577. I guess what I meant by that is that maybe they were too easy to mine or buy early on. I'm not trying to be overly critical just some things I thought were posing us a problem.
  578.  
  579. Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 8:56:11 AM]:
  580. Time can repair reputation, and there is ways to get players that if we work together we can achieve. For example investment profit has been nice, maybe someone writes a detailed write up ( someone who has profited good amount: Larger investor) put it on steemit and update it over time, some people can reach out to other players on other sites ( this method has been effective for getting a few small players, and a few investors) not everyone reads bitcointalk or knows other dice sites so when the hear about a new one they do check it sometimes
  581.  
  582. Michael m, [24/05/2019 at 8:58:41 AM]:
  583. The reddit threeads you had Dean was there a reason you gave up on updating that
  584.  
  585. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 9:07:25 AM]:
  586. Not everything is going to be positive and since that negative dude this morning got kicked off, it's been a hell of a lot more positive. The honest truth is that there may not be a solution.
  587. It might just be a case of carrying on for a bit as the performance has got better and see if that carries on or can be sustained with a light touch by you and if not then time to move on.
  588. I don't expect you to prostrate yourself like that dude did this morning.
  589. Hopefully we can find a way to get a return but maybe we can't.
  590.  
  591. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 9:09:55 AM]:
  592. I do believe in and trust you, I wouldn't have most of my crypto wealth tied up in your bankroll hoping to make back some of the many losses I made by making a lot of bad decisions in 2017. (I'm not saying this was a bad decision but the amount I put in compared to what I had, was)
  593.  
  594. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:10:49 AM (24/05/19, 9:11:00 AM)]:
  595. Yeah, I agree. It’s not an easy topic but I suspect we are all rational here. I also suspect there’s a lot of personal collateral damage right now for you @DeanBK via the Twitter post.
  596.  
  597. Best to let things cool off and brainstorm for a bit. Let jackasses be jackasses and remember that emotional business is like emotional gambling. That shit will blow over. Don’t take the bait, because that’s exactly what that shit is.
  598.  
  599. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:14:21 AM]:
  600. Most of the syndicate groups I was in have turned into chum filled shark tanks for lawyers looking to sue the shit out of any failed ICO with a bank account left standing.
  601.  
  602. I’m all for legal action against intentional fraud, but startups traditionally have a greater than 95% failure rate. No amount of lawsuits will change the nature of that. Some folks just can’t stomach the losses
  603.  
  604. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:19:19 AM]:
  605. "That shit will blow over" not sure it will with the amount of people. And it harms any success of any future project I do that has my name on it even if bk were to close.
  606.  
  607. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:20:01 AM]:
  608. think of the licensing part now, cold emails didnt work so i thought going to events etc might, now it's quite easy to see my name and site name being accused as a scam so doubt even meeting in person would help
  609.  
  610. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:20:44 AM]:
  611. It’s certainly possible. BK just needs to be successful in the end and payout big to investors and bankrollers. People can’t say shit against success
  612.  
  613. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:21:34 AM]:
  614. that's true, and that's what I was hoping for when we started seeing this new profit coming in. But hard to imagine it continuing to right now. Maybe just worked up a bit tbh
  615.  
  616. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:22:07 AM]:
  617. Maybe the network of sites idea would be good to pursue and make them all anon/not linked to betking
  618.  
  619. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:22:37 AM]:
  620. From a business point of view, I don’t see exchanges jumping on board. Especially exchanges trying to be legit. But I suspect there are groups that would white label.
  621.  
  622. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:23:01 AM]:
  623. I think the micro-site type approach could be decent market research as well. You’ll see what sticks
  624.  
  625. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 9:23:27 AM]:
  626. Am I the only one seeing these scam allegations as an opportunity for some free advertising? I mean guys, come on, who sane of mind would think Dean's behaviour is a scam? Quite the opposite. A scam has a precise name in this space: 404 not found :)
  627.  
  628. @DeanBK your behaviour reflects that of the responsible persons running a business, but crypto is 99% marketing, 1% business. If those groups talk about you, there *must* be a way to turn it to your advantage.
  629.  
  630. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:23:58 AM]:
  631. there were a couple that said about regulation actually. We had one about to setup but then backed out at last minute which was frustrating
  632.  
  633. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:25:24 AM]:
  634. i've said before. If I was a scammer I must be the absolute worse one. Sticking around this whole time and trying to make people money back doesn't sound like any scammer I've heard of
  635.  
  636. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:28:33 AM]:
  637. We can't do anything about those guys
  638.  
  639. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:28:41 AM]:
  640. Suggest we focus on moving forward
  641.  
  642. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:29:25 AM]:
  643. Success is the best revenge
  644.  
  645. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:29:29 AM]:
  646. I don't want to comment to much until I've properly read the pdf
  647.  
  648. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:31:33 AM]:
  649. agree, but I would like to wait until everyone has a chance to read the pdf and we get more investors in here before committing to anything. Once we all agree on some route to take we can better plan it and come up with a reasonable time to work on it etc
  650.  
  651. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:31:47 AM]:
  652. Agreed
  653.  
  654. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:32:00 AM]:
  655. More reasonable than some of my work colleagues right now
  656.  
  657. Garnett, [24/05/2019 at 9:33:11 AM]:
  658. Yeah, I think it’s good to give it some time to simmer.
  659.  
  660. Darren G, [24/05/2019 at 9:43:17 AM]:
  661. It's a positive move you've made Dean, who knows where it will go but I appreciate the honesty
  662.  
  663. David, [24/05/2019 at 12:45:06 PM]:
  664. Ok, I've caught up on everything and read the PDF. Here's my thoughts.
  665.  
  666. David, [24/05/2019 at 12:46:23 PM]:
  667. 1. Please keep the site running at least until the May 2020 halving. The site does well during big crypto run-ups past 10K BTC, and we haven't had one of those in ages. When it happens, you might be surprised how people throw their money around.
  668.  
  669. David, [24/05/2019 at 12:48:00 PM]:
  670. 2. It is unfortunate that the UK and US must be blocked. When we made the 7400 BTC during the last boom, were the US and UK blocked then? Considering that we must block the US and a lot of the discussion on Bitcoin Talk would be US based, perhaps there is not a lot of point on continuing to focus on Bitcoin Talk. Maybe Chinese forums would be a better idea?
  671.  
  672. David, [24/05/2019 at 12:49:16 PM]:
  673. 3. Along those lines, some translations into Chinese (Mandarin) of the site would be definitely worth a try. I also like the idea of doing the translations and then getting a few SEO's going like "chinese litecoin gambling" or "chinese bitcoin gambling" etc. Hopefully one of them sticks.
  674.  
  675. Patrick, [24/05/2019 at 12:49:38 PM]:
  676. I'll second that. Keeping it the site running for years for limited profit and high maintenance from Dean seems unsustainable, but I would like to see it given a bit more of a chance for players to be attracted organically.
  677.  
  678. David, [24/05/2019 at 12:50:27 PM]:
  679. 4. I love the idea of the 1000 bets a second. It means that the folks who gamble with 1 satoshi at a time to test out some theory end up going through their funds much faster, and are more likely to start chasing losses, which is what we want. Simplicity is good too. I don't like the idea of a sports book, sounds like a great way to get played. The mathematical games seem more successful.
  680.  
  681. David, [24/05/2019 at 12:51:59 PM]:
  682. 5. Finally, a left field idea that would need some work, but I don't think exists anywhere yet. Dean, you mentioned about video games where people can gamble against each other? If you could somehow get a popular video game or stripped down variant running on the site, and allow players to wager against each other (with a percentage cut going to BetKing from the winner), that could be very successful. People love to back themselves on video games and don't have anywhere to bet against another person online that I know of.
  683.  
  684. David, [24/05/2019 at 12:58:48 PM]:
  685. 6. The final thing I would say is that this needs to be a multi pronged approach. whatever you do, at least a few ideas must be attempted, because only one of them is going to work, and you don't know which one.
  686.  
  687. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:28:37 PM]:
  688. I maye be totally wrong but I feel that the price of btc increasing is bad for us. I mean when we were making $3.5-4 million before BTC price was between $400-600, people seemed to part with it easy. We relaunched when btc was ~$4400, it doesn't look to me like people want to spend it. Though maybe it's just many other factors on BK
  689.  
  690. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:31:37 PM]:
  691. UK has always been blocked, US since ICO. Agree, BTCTalk is also a dying forum. New people to crypto don't go there and many people left and use reddit/telegram/twitter and whatever else now. I should ignore it, but it can be hard (or was at first) since it is very personal and there's a lot of people on there who think it's fine to try and dox people so it was pretty easy to check it frequently.
  692. Now that it's went for so long and my rep is quite bad across the board it seems I don't really care much to check/argue now, there's not much more that can be said
  693.  
  694. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:33:26 PM]:
  695. fwiw, we had a chinese translated version before the new token launched, i didn't see any icrease in chinese players (doesn't mean there was not). Hard to try and focus on any meaningful stat when everything is basicaly 0.
  696. However we didn't do any specific chinese marketing or find chinese forums etc so we could do that
  697.  
  698. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:35:08 PM]:
  699. It's very unsustainable. The amount you have lost, the amount I have lost, my rep, my health tbh etc it's not going to work me scraping by paying token holders back $20k a year. There's too much to recover, too much oportunity cost and much more healthier environments to work in
  700.  
  701. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:36:24 PM]:
  702. yes ideas like this are good. something we are not doing or have not tried. I think things like this may be better on fresh domain/brand though. Doesn't mean we can't share the profit
  703.  
  704. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:40:41 PM]:
  705. with currently only my time as a resource and no funds then they also need to be chosen in some order. Like try x, that could take 2 months to do, test it for 2 months, move to next thing etc (times just made up there).
  706. If we did think of something that was a big effort then we need to seriously consider that we need new investment. If we need extra devs, if we need design work, marketing etc. Not saying all you guys have to put anything in but we'd have to find it somewhere.
  707. It can be done in other ways too. We could have a fund that is m/n multisig wallet with a few investors having keys and we all make agreements on where/when to spend etc. I don't want any new investment coming in and me just left to use it without advice or direction, seen what happens if that's the case.
  708.  
  709. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 5:51:25 PM]:
  710. The kind of money that slither.io and surviv.io or zombsroyale.io make is very appealing though.
  711. If you look at any of these games they are very simple, no fancy graphics (no expensive designers needed).
  712. They make up to $100,000 a day with free to play and ads.
  713.  
  714. I've been thinking maybe you could add BTC to a game i could make like that to help gain audience.
  715. Say you had the battleroyale style game. You could get BTC every time you kill another player. It would have to be faucet style amounts we are talking here but it would attract an initial audience from say indonesia looking to faucet farm.
  716.  
  717. You could then have pay to enter tournaments, like poker, for btc.
  718. So in game there's a tournament you enter fo x btc, we keep some rake, then winner takes all rest.
  719. So many in game purchase options too.
  720.  
  721. I guess btc could be like a way of limiting the audience though, not sure. I mean some may be put off because they don't know what it is or think they need btc to play and in app purchase/pay to play stuff obviously has far more volume with just regular credit cards.
  722. But giving away $ in game seems more hassle than giving away btc
  723.  
  724. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:56:19 PM]:
  725. there's also maybe an option of removing that new token if no one thinks it has any potential. We can't go back to the old token and obviously not that buyback model they had. But I don't think some new token would be any good if we got rid of bkt. We could change the rules/economics of it, it's not like many people bought it, it was free in airdrop.
  726. or maybe just bkb holders get a "debt token" only on site and we do 50/40/10 of profit to bankrollers, tokens, site.
  727. i think token holders making money back on investment should see that as making money back and remove some debt tokens if that's the case.
  728. we could have the 40% be in a queue to pay back this group first.
  729. problem is that it only recovers initial investment, it gets no actual return after that and maybe the bkt token is good to have with bet mining etc
  730.  
  731. just thinking of ideas :)
  732.  
  733. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:57:28 PM]:
  734. and open to any
  735.  
  736. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 7:59:22 PM]:
  737. not sure what that would mean for the people who have bkt on site though, bkb holders could just have it confiscated? players have it as some on site only reward?
  738.  
  739. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:01:44 PM]:
  740. right now there is 650mm bkt on site (bankroll, balances, in orders)
  741. bkb holders swapped 455mm, so there's 195mm tokens either earned in bet mining or promos or deposited from airdrop
  742.  
  743. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:03:21 PM]:
  744. the debt could be locked in $ and the 40% share distributed direct to accounts. no need for exchange. Or maybe best to keep exchange if people want to still trade? not sure. Feel i'm just babbling now :)
  745.  
  746. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 8:27:02 PM]:
  747. I hear what you are saying. To me if we can get profit flowing back we can fix all ills and if we can't the rest is a bit mixed
  748.  
  749. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:45:42 PM]:
  750. if we could get all investors on same page and agree there's no scamming then work on how to publically clear up that image (statement plus investor feedbakc/posts etc) then maybe it would mean profit starts flowing. But not sure that willl happen
  751.  
  752. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 8:46:29 PM]:
  753. Yes it's not a bad way to look at it
  754.  
  755. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 8:46:46 PM]:
  756. It would help us take back thr bitcointalk and twitter etc
  757.  
  758. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 8:50:24 PM]:
  759. yeah, but we'd probably need the other investors lie mike etc to agree to it to for it to have full effect?
  760.  
  761. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:01:57 PM]:
  762. A reasonable person would be interested in a way to get their money back. Especially if all it required was them to be quiet for 9 months
  763.  
  764. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:02:05 PM]:
  765. To see if it worked
  766.  
  767. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:03:12 PM]:
  768. Albeit you obviously can't garuntee anything because they are lawyered up but an invitation to see the benefit for them if they don't sabotage seems like an attractive proposition
  769.  
  770. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:06:30 PM]:
  771. we'd have to have a solid plan voted on first as to what we should do though i think before anyone changed their stance
  772.  
  773. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:09:36 PM]:
  774. In summary the main things we haven't tried are
  775. - on chain dapps (like eosbet has)
  776. - betting exchange
  777. - licence/white label software services
  778.  
  779. any of the above could be under a different brand
  780.  
  781. - network of sites with different domains/seo/marketing strategy in different languages and currencies
  782.  
  783. or something totally different to betking e.g. games (not gambling), the bitsafe app i've been working on, any other ideas put forward.
  784.  
  785. and/or changing the token, how it works, or removing it and having accounts have a debt balance
  786.  
  787. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:10:04 PM]:
  788. i don't know how to bring players to the current produtc at all as proven
  789.  
  790. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 9:19:09 PM]:
  791. I'd definitely need the ideas to be divided into two: the almost immediately doable by-tomorrow-evening, and those that compete for being what you believe could work. But the latter can be no more than... one, do you agree?
  792.  
  793. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:21:00 PM]:
  794. still the biggest problem is no matter what we build, we need people to know about it. Just adding things isn't helping (look at roulette/crash traffic).
  795.  
  796. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:21:33 PM]:
  797. and so far it seems we don't have anyone in the group with marketing expertise so not sure we're going to be able to come up with a solid plan there yet
  798.  
  799. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:22:21 PM]:
  800. i thought the airdrop would have worked for example, maybe a professional doing research, even on a basic level, would know that wouldn't work or that it was poorly executed
  801.  
  802. Nicola, [24/05/2019 at 9:29:43 PM]:
  803. Agree, that's the biggest problem. Advertising is not my expertise, so I cannot help much, but Twitter looks like the platform of choice for crypto-people. Also, as @GarnettG was saying, maybe someone identifying the kind of public. I'm not sure how much you feel these people (like Mike) barking "scam" are annoying or dangerous. From my perspective they aren't, as they represent whining people looking for attention, but depending on how much serious you are (and you look like) you may suffer this kind of dissing.
  804.  
  805. CCN CCN, [24/05/2019 at 9:42:15 PM]:
  806. My friend in marketing has been too busy to offer any service but I'll see if she can recommend someone to come up with a competent plan
  807.  
  808. Dean (BetKing Admin), [24/05/2019 at 9:50:38 PM]:
  809. should any of those other guys be added here if they swap bkb to bkt? or too much liability?
  810. I mean there's some people in here that haven't spoke yet, who knows if they are relaying info back to them anyway
  811.  
  812. Thomas Pagano, [25/05/2019 at 1:10:11 AM]:
  813. As one of those people who haven't spoke yet... I don't know enough about the product/marketing side of things to suggest something you haven't already tried. But I am appreciative of all the transparency and brainstorming.
  814.  
  815. David, [25/05/2019 at 1:20:37 AM]:
  816. One more idea
  817.  
  818. David, [25/05/2019 at 1:21:06 AM]:
  819. How about a survey, with a bounty for filling it out, that goes to all existing betking members
  820.  
  821. David, [25/05/2019 at 1:21:34 AM]:
  822. Something decent line 0.001 BTC or 0.0001 BTC or whatever as the bounty for filling it out
  823.  
  824. David, [25/05/2019 at 1:21:55 AM]:
  825. And simply ask where they originally found out about betking, where they first heard about betking
  826.  
  827. David, [25/05/2019 at 1:22:14 AM]:
  828. Get your trends from that, perhaps something stands out and you can work on that
  829.  
  830. David, [25/05/2019 at 1:23:26 AM]:
  831. I don’t mind the % make whole plan you suggested, but it would need to be denoted in BTC, not in fiat, as far as I’m concerned. I want to be made whole in BTC
  832.  
  833. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 1:24:25 AM]:
  834. the original ico was a $ investment
  835.  
  836. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 2:11:51 AM]:
  837. What if btx reached 1mm each. You cant expect to recover the btc then
  838.  
  839. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 2:12:40 AM]:
  840. Maybe if things move fast we can recover almost thr same before the price shoots up too much but have to be realistic at this stage. Easier to recover the $ value
  841.  
  842. Patrick, [25/05/2019 at 5:38:25 AM]:
  843. I'm not understanding the fixation on recovering initial investment here. This is basically changing strategy at the table so that you don't have a losing session, right? This seems like not the right mindset. Maybe it's not that important, but I think we should be focusing on ideas that give a high probability of a reasonable return based on the current bkt value rather than getting stuck on what we started with. That gives us a shot at sustainable profit. I don't see how the initial investment amount matters aside from reputation concerns.
  844.  
  845. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:33:46 PM]:
  846. wagered/profit stats per week for each currency, notice that the past two weeks has seen quite a decline in volume
  847.  
  848. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:36:20 PM]:
  849. in total about $6000 profit in past 2 weeks all combined (at current prices) which splits 50/50 with bankroll investors and token buy back pools
  850.  
  851. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:39:06 PM (25/05/19, 7:40:25 PM)]:
  852. to me that shows a pretty dire state to be in. weeks 11 and 12 were basically 1 player making most of the volume and profit in btc/eth. Though the past 2 weeks and weeks 8-9 do seem similar (before and after highroller) but still looks like a downward trend
  853.  
  854. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:41:58 PM]:
  855. The price of BKT is dropping a lot, it was being sold for 5 or 6 sats on bk exchange, now it's been 2 to 3 sats. On newdex.io it has dropped from about 0.00006 eos to 0.0000126 eos
  856.  
  857. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:55:46 PM]:
  858. The highroller still logs in. He is a chancer. He emailed on first loss claiming it wasn't his money and that his boss would kill him for loss. He's banned from chat because he starts arguments with everyone and claims it's all rigged. His connection cut out once when the auto bet mode was on so the bets stopped. He claims that made him lose 1 btc and keeps emailing demanding a refund :) obviosuly we don't do refunds and that didn't make him lose at all, different if it actually bet for him when he didn't want to but it actually stopped the betting
  859.  
  860. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:57:53 PM]:
  861. actually he just deposited 0.4 btc and is playing noow
  862.  
  863. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 7:59:23 PM]:
  864. with bkt, he invested the btc
  865.  
  866. Nicola, [25/05/2019 at 8:12:15 PM]:
  867. I agree on this.
  868.  
  869. Nicola, [25/05/2019 at 8:12:49 PM]:
  870. Whining highrollers 💛
  871.  
  872. David, [25/05/2019 at 9:15:28 PM]:
  873. I want to be made whole for financial reasons, not reputation reasons. That said, I don’t want to get in the way and I understand that we can be profitable from the point we are at now. I can be patient too.
  874.  
  875. Dean (BetKing Admin), [25/05/2019 at 9:27:10 PM]:
  876. $3k a week, and declining, isn't going to make anyone whole again. (13 years)
  877. We've burned through all funds and I've tried everything I can think of to bring players and it doesn't seem to be working.
  878. Hence why this group was created. We need as much help as possible from investors or others.
  879. I don't have the motivation now to work on BetKing when everything I try every day fails.
  880. I'm currently not working on BetKing until investors put forward a solid plan because I'm not picking something that's bound to fail again and make no one any money.
  881. It will probably take a few weeks or a month for everyone who got the emails to join here and everyone to settle on the next path. I'll be doing non BK things in the mean time and maybe it trickles in $3k a week still or we get lucky and some highroller returns.
  882.  
  883. Patrick, [26/05/2019 at 6:13:00 AM]:
  884. My question is why does anything we try need to make everyone whole again? Imo we should be doing anything that has a good chance of making a return worth the risk and the work that's put in (just by Dean at this point). I think Dean taking a break isn't a bad idea, as that limits the effective burn rate or maintenance cost of the site in terms of human capital, which it seems is the major cost at this point. If you can keep it on autopilot as much as possible, and it starts to bring in a bit more, that seems more sustainable. A new project seems like a good idea, but I don't understand why we're focusing on that project or idea making a specific amount rather than just being profitable. Our invested funds are either gone or represented in the development of betking so far, so trying to make back the original investment seems very arbitrary and counterproductive.
  885.  
  886. KingGD, [26/05/2019 at 11:22:28 AM]:
  887. I peronally think
  888. 1. BKT price -- When we have exchange BKT/BTC , price cannot go up because BKT was airdropped(*Free). Lots of holders who get BKT from Airdrop, they have willing to sell sell BKT whenever price goes up. : They use BKT for only sell instead of using game.
  889. So I dont know why exchange is needed at this time. Lomg term Holder has patient..can wait little more.
  890.  
  891. I think making structure of 'price still goes up system' is better. This way is like that Betking did. I think BKB token strcutrue itsef was good. (Price was guaranted and goes up only , Holder can get 10% buyback for what they opt-in)
  892. Though this way, BKT holder can get profit, not making price go down. - Even though it also painful for original BKB holder, its right way.
  893.  
  894. KingGD, [26/05/2019 at 11:46:15 AM]:
  895. 2. Marketing - How we can invite a new user without not enogh marketing cost. What is costless way? I think to make a new airdrop token to play a game is most effective. It should erc20 to spread most lots of users easily. But one important thing is new token price should be very low compare to BKT token. Through this way we can get a new user , not nagative affecting BKB. (ex. new 'BKT play' token price is 0.1% of BKT price). New token is only used for a game and exchange with BKT proportionally. 1000BKT Play token = 1 BKT )
  896. And in a mean time, additonally make a bounty program and give rewarded new token to whom post about Betking site or follow twitter, telegram. Inviting friends what else..)
  897.  
  898. KingGD, [26/05/2019 at 12:00:26 PM]:
  899. 3. (Future) Exchange - How we can use this? I think making Betking site as a platform is good way like current IEO trend, listing a new token from projects and developers. To help listing their token, they need to buy some BKT token, and it should be burned. And also listed a new token can be played for a game. That means naturally Betking can get a lots of new userefrom the token user's community.
  900.  
  901. I think one strong point of Betking is alreay it alreay has structured system for exchange and deposit/withdraw system.
  902.  
  903. Michael m, [26/05/2019 at 4:08:16 PM]:
  904. 3) is a interesting idea, lots of communities want some utility from their tokens, they find out they can gamble it or invest it might catch on
  905.  
  906. Michael m, [26/05/2019 at 4:35:41 PM]:
  907. also agree with auto pilot mode with minimal effort, the trolls and negativety will subside
  908.  
  909. Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 6:40:35 PM]:
  910. thanks @King_GD for the ideas. Will think about those while deciding next steps
  911.  
  912. Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 6:50:46 PM]:
  913. should the investor from the group that were seeking legal action be sent the doc and group link?
  914.  
  915. Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 6:59:05 PM]:
  916. on one hand it feels like they should since they still hold tokens. But I feel it's too big a risk. Not too bothered that they use anything against me legally as they don't have a case anyway. But if they post on twitet things like that about me/bbk and we discuss/announce new sites/projects, what's to stop them posting about the new thing too, damaging that's chance of success
  917.  
  918. Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 7:07:28 PM]:
  919. could maybe send doc but not link?
  920.  
  921. Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 8:09:37 PM]:
  922. regarding 3. above about exchange, would making exchange on a new brand/domain not be better for that? Fresh start but also doens't have bet in the name which might be bad for exchanges
  923.  
  924. Dean (BetKing Admin), [26/05/2019 at 8:20:56 PM]:
  925. we would also need thousads of traders already before people would choose to launch an ieo with us instead of binance
  926.  
  927. Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 12:48:18 AM]:
  928. in case you missed from the public group chat
  929. all investments that had 25x leverage have been auto divested, you can reinvest at up to 10x now
  930.  
  931. Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 8:14:50 PM]:
  932. Some new volume this weekend with EOS and some BTC. In total site made about $4.5k
  933.  
  934. Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 8:15:20 PM]:
  935. Would be interested to hear peoples opinion on what we should do with buy back strategy now and what to do about token(s)
  936.  
  937. CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:04:25 PM]:
  938. i'd convert it all to btc (the buyback currency) then keep it in the secure, savings account earning 6% interest
  939.  
  940. CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:04:31 PM]:
  941. until we have a clear way forward
  942.  
  943. CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:04:55 PM]:
  944. Blockfi account
  945.  
  946. Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 11:17:09 PM]:
  947. maximum return would be $14k in a year (25 btc max for 6.2% apy) if I'm calculating right and if we used the curent buy back pool we are talking 6.2% apy on like $2000 or something. Not sure that is worth it is it?
  948.  
  949. Dean (BetKing Admin), [27/05/2019 at 11:17:55 PM]:
  950. plus 3rd party risk and i think they convert the btc to $
  951.  
  952. CCN CCN, [27/05/2019 at 11:52:02 PM]:
  953. $ funding is cheaper than 6.2%. Would be surprised if they were doing that. Counterparty risk exists and it's a risk appetite question, I think it is limited in this instance, personally. It's also a good way to test the offering with limited $$$ before doing anything else. Optimising treasury is a good way to turn a business profitable.
  954.  
  955. Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:21:12 AM (28/05/19, 7:22:58 AM)]:
  956. Hi - I just joined at Dean's invite. I have read the pdf. I have 30+ years experience in tech marketing and sales. I haven't read all the discussion above but will try skim through it. My main comment is that this business needs to be run as a business and not via a set of chat forums (with no disrespect to anyone here). I think Dean should 1) invest a little (can be just $1-2K) on some business consulting and as input all the above can be included + his report/pdf. 2) keep this group as idea generator and sounding board but stick to the plan the consultant recommends 3) hire 2 or 3 people for sales/marketing/biz dev/finance with some bkt vesting program so they don't just dump but rather have incentive to get the value up to the point that most investors *don't* just want all their money back but instead stick around for bigger payoff. 4) then Dean is CEO of "startup" with small team, instead of him trying to do it all himself. Main goal is to grow the revenue and value of the business, which would be reflected in the price of bkt.
  957.  
  958. Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:22:22 AM]:
  959. PS - I'm an investor too, from BK ICO days.
  960.  
  961. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 7:42:29 AM]:
  962. 1) where would I find anyone to do that?
  963. 3) same, this site wasn't run on own since ico, it was marketing staff and marketing agencies that cause the most damage as noted in the pdf.
  964. also, very unlikely to get someone to work for some token that they would be hoping to raise in price.
  965. the difference here is everyone in this group already has money invested and has an interest in the price going up so they don't lose money
  966. I know some people have a lot of money and took a risk and have written it off already so won't be willing to put any time or anything in but some still could
  967.  
  968. Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:51:11 AM]:
  969. 1 - there's management consultants all over. Maybe there's some that know blockchain. I just hired a consultant for an ecommerce business I own and will know if I can recommend they guy to you in a few weeks.
  970.  
  971. Peter, [28/05/2019 at 7:54:20 AM]:
  972. 3 - you need a team with shared beliefs and incentives. I don't think you need a lot of people. Treat it like a startup. Maybe just find 1 person to help you share the load and free up some of your time to work *on* the business instead of *in* the business. Until you have a plan just use this group in the meantime. I think having a clear plan is the first step.
  973.  
  974. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:22:06 PM]:
  975. I'm still wondering what people thought of this idea, as far as I can see there was one for and one against.
  976.  
  977. Removing BKT and BKB altogether. There is no tokens at all. No exchange, no bet mining, no rewards in tokens.
  978. We burn all them (that are in BK possession).
  979.  
  980. We then have original ICO investors have a "debt" balance in account which is set to the amount of $ invested in the ICO.
  981.  
  982. Then when we take profit from bankroll investor commission we distribute it to players debt balances instead of to buy back pools.
  983. So you might have a balance that says "debt: $10,000, BTC: 0.5"
  984. Where BTC is the amount of btc been shared from commission to you.
  985.  
  986. Then when you withdraw the BTC from BK we take current conversion rate and decrease the debt figure. So in the example above if you withdraw when BTC is $8000 the debt would go to $6000. If BTC was $12000 the debt would go to $4000 etc.
  987.  
  988. On top of that we could add the following:
  989. 1) Profit made back from bankroll investing would also reduce the debt (at time of withdraw as in above example).
  990. 2) Profit made from selling tokens that were mined (before we make this change) would also reduce the debt balance. This would take into consideration losses while playing though too.
  991.  
  992. Overall I think that this would see initial investors get a return faster as we wouldn't be buying up tokens from people who can bet with +EV (lose $100 and sell tokens for $110 etc).
  993. We wouldn't be buying tokens that were sent in airdrops or any extra in promotions.
  994. The site can become profitable faster too.
  995.  
  996. Bet mining has saw people play to mine tokens but I'm not sure if it's an overall positive thing with the current price of the tokens. People are playing almost +ev or even +ev at times. That might be a net negative for the site overall. Or maybe removing token does actually cause a huge drop in players.
  997. Making the changes might even be good PR as people could say they feel the situation was resolved, or being resolved
  998. Thoughts?
  999.  
  1000. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:27:55 PM]:
  1001. Dean can you elaborate: in this case is it possible for an investor's btc balance to become larger in $ terms than the initial debt balance?
  1002. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:29:54 PM]:
  1003. so if you were getting a share of profit and left it for a year and you had debt of $10k but btc worth say $20k? Then I guess that is an actual return on investment. I'm not sure how likely this scenario would be to occur in the short term though
  1004.  
  1005. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:33:46 PM]:
  1006. The main issue is making the site more attractive for bankroll investors and punters, that's the core of all of this, rearranging the deck chairs isn't going to bring more punters. The exchange is a great feature and dice sites have one, they also have bet mining etc. How about a dark and light theme, light themes keep people more alert
  1007.  
  1008. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:35:37 PM]:
  1009. I could see there was value for bankrolling at 25x leverage with 50% commission, but now with 10x it is no value compared to yolo dice with 10x leverage and 35% commission, bk should be on par value
  1010.  
  1011. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:36:18 PM]:
  1012. well....
  1013.  
  1014. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:36:52 PM]:
  1015. "The main issue is making the site more attractive for bankroll investors "
  1016. we are not attracting any because commission is too high and they need to buy BKT to get lower commission. No one likes to part with money before investing....
  1017.  
  1018. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:37:49 PM]:
  1019. "The exchange is a great feature and dice sites have one,"
  1020. very few dice sites have one and ours has no function other than for the site to buy tokens on, no one else is really buying, there's no real volume meaning we should keep exchange
  1021.  
  1022. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:38:21 PM]:
  1023. "How about a dark and light theme, light themes keep people more alert"
  1024. those are small things that are not related to what is being discussed. Having dark theme isn't going to make us $2mm, the site is already dark too
  1025.  
  1026. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:39:24 PM]:
  1027. "I could see there was value for bankrolling at 25x leverage with 50% commission, but now with 10x it is no value compared to yolo dice with 10x leverage and 35% commission, bk should be on par value"
  1028. most investors said they didn't like 25x, it's too risky since everyone is doing it. All current investors don't pay 50% commission because 99% of them have bkt and pay 25% of the commission with that, so the get it lower than yolo
  1029.  
  1030. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:44:28 PM]:
  1031. Unless like myself want to hold bkt, paying with bkt is essentially dumping them for nothing. Also maybe a tiered buyback/commission, so you can earn something at least, on days below a threshold, you keep, on other days with more profit.
  1032.  
  1033. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:44:55 PM]:
  1034. and this is just for token changes, we can still do all the other feature ideas mention on top of that be it network of sites, new games etc. But I'm just wondering if the token stuff is harming us or making it more difficult for people to get money back
  1035.  
  1036. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:45:21 PM]:
  1037. yes but people are doing it because they feel they have already lost everything
  1038.  
  1039. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:50:13 PM]:
  1040. How about instead of a full exchange you have a token swap between the main tokens price pegged to binance (or another) with a exchange commission for bk, so a punter can remain on the site if they want to punt with another token.
  1041.  
  1042. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:52:00 PM]:
  1043. I don't think it is a dead loss, it only is if you shit it down, there have been a couple of large punters in the last month, that's far better than its previous recent history, it's still growing, just slowly
  1044.  
  1045. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 10:52:14 PM]:
  1046. Shut*
  1047.  
  1048. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:53:10 PM]:
  1049. yeah true
  1050.  
  1051. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 10:55:08 PM]:
  1052. I still think that the idea of a debt balance might be better than the current token model though. I would like to hear more people's feedback. I made the changed to launch bkt almost on own as only 1 or 2 people gave feedback on the idea (positive feedback) and then I have people unhappy when they didn't bother to give input.
  1053. This change to me feels like it could be best for everyone and "resolve" the situation
  1054.  
  1055. Darren G, [28/05/2019 at 11:01:49 PM]:
  1056. If you remove the token, what will happen to the commission rate? Will it stay at 50%
  1057.  
  1058. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:02:07 PM]:
  1059. I think we would need to lower it to remain competitive
  1060.  
  1061. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:02:28 PM]:
  1062. maybe down to 35% like yolodice. I'm not sure what rates are like on other sites at the moment
  1063.  
  1064. Darren G, [28/05/2019 at 11:02:45 PM]:
  1065. does 35% actually mean you will make more money?
  1066.  
  1067. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:02:56 PM]:
  1068. yeah....
  1069.  
  1070. Darren G, [28/05/2019 at 11:02:57 PM]:
  1071. or BK rather
  1072.  
  1073. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:03:22 PM]:
  1074. i was going to say how it makes you get a return faster.
  1075.  
  1076. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:03:41 PM]:
  1077. BK doesn;t make any money at the moment, we've made 0 since launching the new token in feb
  1078.  
  1079. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:04:46 PM]:
  1080. but even with lower commission you would see a return faster as there would be funds going directly to your debt balance each day/week or whatever. Instead of us having to keep buying new mined tokens and getting through airdrop dumps etc
  1081.  
  1082. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:05:30 PM]:
  1083. even if it was something like 65% bankroll, 25% to debt balance, 10% to site everyone would still see a return faster i think
  1084.  
  1085. Graham, [28/05/2019 at 11:19:04 PM]:
  1086. You've already burned 1/5 of all bkt in circulation, if issuance of new tokens was ceased, it wouldn't be long before the price would be pushed up through buybacks to make it worth selling some of yours. The site only needs to grow about 4-5 x more profitable to start giving you a reasonable return, it is happening slowly and it won't take 13 years.
  1087.  
  1088. Nicola, [28/05/2019 at 11:22:54 PM]:
  1089. If the need of investors is real (and I think it is), it should be lowered to 10%
  1090.  
  1091. Dean (BetKing Admin), [28/05/2019 at 11:37:47 PM]:
  1092. remember the whole point of the new token was to try and bring thousands of new players from the EOS community, like EOSBet and sites like that claim to have. That didn't happen.
  1093.  
  1094. John Deer, [29/05/2019 at 1:23:56 AM]:
  1095. this would have been my only concern in changing the model but if they were already investors then it seems alright
  1096.  
  1097. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 5:27:48 AM]:
  1098. i think u will make people unhappy and fuel more fire for the trolls if u get rid of bkt
  1099.  
  1100. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:02:32 AM]:
  1101. The idea of a debt balance seems very bad for investors. What you're proposing if I understand correctly (I probably don't) is capping the return that an investor could make if the site is eventually more successful at the amount that they invested initially. That wouldn't change the probability of success. It would only take away from returns for investors if the site did succeed.
  1102.  
  1103. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:05:26 AM]:
  1104. This makes me think you wouldn't be capping returns at initial investment, but that makes me wonder what would really be different about this model besides airdropped people being cut out and betmining being removed.
  1105.  
  1106. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:00 AM]:
  1107. What returns do you think we’re likely to make at the moment?
  1108.  
  1109. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:04 AM]:
  1110. I think simpler is better, and this seems like it would be a simpler model, but it's also a major change to the platform, which introduces a different kind of complexity.
  1111.  
  1112. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:30 AM]:
  1113. Are you asking me?
  1114.  
  1115. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:06:59 AM]:
  1116. Yeah, at the moment the returns are likely to be 0
  1117.  
  1118. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:02 AM]:
  1119. I think the odds of investors making more than original investment anytime soon are very low
  1120.  
  1121. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:21 AM]:
  1122. but I also don't see how capping returns would make success more likely
  1123.  
  1124. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:48 AM]:
  1125. Hopefully that's not part of the plan. I don't think it really makes sense and doesn't seem like something Dean would do.
  1126.  
  1127. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:07:54 AM]:
  1128. I think I misunderstood
  1129.  
  1130. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:08:20 AM]:
  1131. I might have also, it’s a valid question
  1132.  
  1133. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 9:29:29 AM]:
  1134. I have an issue with airdrops, bounties, and mining - seems to make things more complicated and bring people that don't really contribute to the value of the site or token. Airdrops and bounties particularly are criteria for me to not invest in a project. I think moving to a simpler model where there's value-added gaming, and promotion of the winners (like casinos do), would make it simpler and easer to focus. With more focus there would be more growth and more returns for investors. Not sure about the debt idea as I don't see it attracting more gamblers = more income.
  1135.  
  1136. Thomas, [29/05/2019 at 9:35:41 AM]:
  1137. Im mostly just reading to learn something but I agree with last few points. Seems to make most sense to me also.
  1138.  
  1139. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:39:22 AM]:
  1140. The idea might need tweaked, or even scrapped. But the point is that I think it makes initial BKB ICO investors their investment back sooner. It's not really anything for players to be concerned with. Though I do think removing tokens and exchange and getting the site to be the same as pre ico probably makes it simpler for gamblers and bankroll investors even if behind the scenes some accounts have an extra "debt" balance
  1141.  
  1142. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 9:44:26 AM]:
  1143. How would we handle the original investors that have since sold their bkt (was converted from bkb investment) and now have less (sold some) or more (bought more)? I guess it would have to be converted back somehow and then the question is what pair and price to use?
  1144.  
  1145. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:45:44 AM]:
  1146. there would be very few people i imagine. If they sold then that's their choice to do so imo.
  1147.  
  1148. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:47:35 AM]:
  1149. so this would be based on current bkt balances * buyback price when bkt was created?
  1150.  
  1151. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:47:42 AM]:
  1152. would also be easy to know how much they made from selling bkt and then reduce debt amount by that amount
  1153.  
  1154. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:48:36 AM]:
  1155. I don't think that idea makes sense
  1156.  
  1157. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:48:42 AM]:
  1158. no, it would be based on original ICO $ invested, plus any extra BKB that you might have bought on hitbtc etc
  1159.  
  1160. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:48:57 AM]:
  1161. investors that didn't sell took much more risk of failure
  1162.  
  1163. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:49:13 AM]:
  1164. I'm not sure where the confusion is....
  1165.  
  1166. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:49:33 AM]:
  1167. so bkb balance at time of airdrop?
  1168.  
  1169. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:49:56 AM]:
  1170. how do you know how much bkb people bought?
  1171.  
  1172. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:51:08 AM]:
  1173. If you used this model, you would basically be taking away all profits made from those of us that took a large risk by investing in bkt in bankroll as well
  1174.  
  1175. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:51:50 AM]:
  1176. If someone invested $10,000 in the ICO then they would have $10,000 in their debt balance. Only people who still had BKB (didn't sell in Buy backs on old site)
  1177. That figure gets reduced if
  1178. 1) you converted bkb to bkt and sold bkt
  1179. 2) you have invested in the bankroll and made a profit that way
  1180. 3) you have bought/mined bkt and sold at profit
  1181.  
  1182. All the info is info we have so it's not hard to work out exactly how much $ someone is still down from original investment to now
  1183.  
  1184. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:54:52 AM]:
  1185. Is 2 related to investing in the BKT bankroll?
  1186.  
  1187. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:04 AM]:
  1188. yes
  1189.  
  1190. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:06 AM]:
  1191. no
  1192.  
  1193. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:08 AM]:
  1194. sorry
  1195.  
  1196. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:55:22 AM]:
  1197. I still don't understand what happens when someone's profit exceeds their initial investment. I think that's the most important thing here.
  1198.  
  1199. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:55:23 AM]:
  1200. like if you invested btc in the btc bankroll
  1201.  
  1202. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:55:44 AM]:
  1203. What does investing in the btc bankroll have to do with investment in the token?
  1204.  
  1205. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:56:29 AM]:
  1206. But it would be a very unlikley scenario. That could only happen if someone doesn't withdrew the funds from their debt balance for a long time and btc goes up a lot
  1207.  
  1208. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:56:41 AM]:
  1209. because you still made money back from the site
  1210.  
  1211. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:57:37 AM]:
  1212. the profit from investing in the btc bankroll is compensation for taking on risk to enable higher max bets
  1213.  
  1214. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:57:49 AM]:
  1215. that is a completely separate investment
  1216.  
  1217. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:58:15 AM]:
  1218. doesn't matter. You still made profit on the site and so it's not like you are down overall of the whole $ invested
  1219.  
  1220. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 9:58:49 AM]:
  1221. Let’s say you don’t have anything in the bankroll. How does the debt balance get paid down?
  1222.  
  1223. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:59:16 AM]:
  1224. a % of bankroll commission gets distibuted to debt balances
  1225.  
  1226. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 9:59:40 AM]:
  1227. but if people have lost anything investing in btc bankroll are you going to add to their debt?
  1228.  
  1229. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:59:48 AM]:
  1230. no
  1231.  
  1232. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:00:08 AM]:
  1233. So you're penalizing one side of the EV equation
  1234.  
  1235. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:00:16 AM]:
  1236. nope
  1237.  
  1238. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:00:42 AM]:
  1239. And I think there’s a hole there. It then becomes more worthwhile to have my balances invested elsewhere and let the commission slot pay down the debt balance
  1240.  
  1241. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:00:52 AM]:
  1242. also who's lost in bankroll investing? the sites had no volume for a year and half so no winners and the bankroll has more profit than ev right now so i'm sure anyone invested must be in profit
  1243.  
  1244. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:01:22 AM]:
  1245. What is the purpose of the debt balance?
  1246.  
  1247. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:01:38 AM]:
  1248. yeah. You can do that. But then you might not see return of initial investment as fast and I'm sure that's the goal here
  1249.  
  1250.  
  1251. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:02:09 AM]:
  1252. True. My balance is invested here rather than at Yolo for a reason
  1253.  
  1254. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:02:33 AM]:
  1255. you said yourself you were trying to make the initial investment back by investing in the bankroll
  1256.  
  1257. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:02:50 AM]:
  1258. And I think it's also a bit more fair to me too
  1259.  
  1260. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:02:58 AM]:
  1261. Yes, and to help. But that is a hole in the plan
  1262.  
  1263. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:03:17 AM]:
  1264. I’m not saying I’m going to do it, but others will
  1265.  
  1266. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:03:43 AM]:
  1267. If we are not going to close and just eat the loss then I would rather that I wasn't working for 100 years to make everyone whole again :)
  1268.  
  1269. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:04:20 AM]:
  1270. so i think it's fair that if you invested 10k but have made 3k since that its alright to have 7k to try and make back now
  1271.  
  1272. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:04:21 AM]:
  1273. I do appreciate the efforts
  1274.  
  1275. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:04:35 AM]:
  1276. no matter who it all happened
  1277.  
  1278. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:04:37 AM]:
  1279. what happens when you make back the 7k?
  1280.  
  1281. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:05:01 AM]:
  1282. Is that the end of your share of profit from betking commissions?
  1283.  
  1284. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:05:01 AM]:
  1285. then you don't receieve any funds from the commission, but you can still invest in bankroll
  1286.  
  1287. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:05:17 AM]:
  1288. How can you think that's fair?
  1289.  
  1290. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:05:25 AM]:
  1291. how is it not?
  1292.  
  1293. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:05:44 AM]:
  1294. All this does is cap the returns possible for investors
  1295.  
  1296. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:05:54 AM]:
  1297. Everyone would be paid off in whole at the same time most likely, because it would be distrbuted by how much you have in balance
  1298.  
  1299. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:06:07 AM]:
  1300. we are not looking for returns. We are looking to recover loss
  1301.  
  1302. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:06:32 AM]:
  1303. whats happening with the Bkt I bought and bet mined for?
  1304.  
  1305. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:06:33 AM]:
  1306. We're looking to make returns
  1307.  
  1308. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:06:57 AM]:
  1309. How does this do anything except take away from the amount investors can make in the case of success?
  1310.  
  1311. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:07:30 AM]:
  1312. what success? if it's successful then we get the original funds back. I don't seeing it being a success where we can get 2x initial funds
  1313.  
  1314. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:07:40 AM]:
  1315. and the moment everyone is made whole again I would close the site
  1316.  
  1317. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:07:50 AM]:
  1318. so i wouldn't benefit from it
  1319.  
  1320. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:07:56 AM]:
  1321. It's improbable, but that is where investors make all profit
  1322.  
  1323. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:08:15 AM]:
  1324. it's not like i'm trying to remove investors so i profit. I'm looking to make it so everyone gets made whole asap and then we can move on
  1325.  
  1326. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:09:02 AM]:
  1327. well none of this is decided on yet. This is me putting out an idea
  1328.  
  1329. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:09:13 AM]:
  1330. That doesn't change the math
  1331.  
  1332. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:12:47 AM]:
  1333. I’m not sure how that would work. no one would sell as it’s not the price they want
  1334.  
  1335. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:17 AM]:
  1336. they currently buying and selling now
  1337.  
  1338. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:20 AM]:
  1339. preserve everyone's stake in profits without capping them arbitrarily and remove token price issues
  1340.  
  1341. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:48 AM]:
  1342. Only Dean is buying, bettors are selling, not investors
  1343.  
  1344. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:13:54 AM]:
  1345. there's also still the fact that there is bet mining and promos, and bkt on external exchanges etc. It's easy to block the airdrop tokens but we'd need to sort something out with exchanges
  1346.  
  1347. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:13:58 AM]:
  1348. I bought some
  1349.  
  1350. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:14:01 AM]:
  1351. just lock in everyone's share of commission based on tokens held and distribute commission directly
  1352.  
  1353. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:14:22 AM]:
  1354. Then I take back what I said
  1355.  
  1356. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:15:37 AM]:
  1357. yes but you are buying at 1 to 2 sats knowing that i am buying at 5,6 or 7 sats and more in future. It's not really like people are buying and selling continuously at a reasonable price. Especially keeping in mind that most people here won't sell below 20 sats or whatever the price needs to be. SO it's just site profit being wasted imo
  1358.  
  1359. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:16:11 AM]:
  1360. that's why i've not even really been doing buybacsks the past week. I think it's a waste right now
  1361.  
  1362. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:16:19 AM]:
  1363. I bought some at 5 sat and 4 sats and also bought some essentially mining when I would not have done if there was no incentive
  1364.  
  1365. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:17:07 AM]:
  1366. and if we make the changes i proposed then the profit you made from that would be taken into account to set your debt balance so it's not a waste
  1367.  
  1368. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:10 AM]:
  1369. how does buying bkt count toward debt balance and profiting from btc bankroll count against it?
  1370.  
  1371. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:14 AM]:
  1372. This makes no sense to me
  1373.  
  1374. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:43 AM]:
  1375. bankroll investment was more risk on top of the risk they already had
  1376.  
  1377. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:18:52 AM]:
  1378. exactly
  1379.  
  1380. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:18:58 AM]:
  1381. any profit you have made on the platform in any way whatsover (except betting obv) would count as some return. So that means you have made something since initial investment. so not as much to recover
  1382.  
  1383. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:19:09 AM]:
  1384. it's irrelevant though.
  1385.  
  1386. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:19:25 AM]:
  1387. but it wasnt profit from initial investment it was profit from another investment
  1388.  
  1389. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:19:27 AM]:
  1390. For what reason is it irrelevant?
  1391.  
  1392. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:19:30 AM]:
  1393. I mean it's best to keep the site open right?
  1394.  
  1395. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:19:51 AM]:
  1396. We're only getting our back if the site is sustainable and profitable
  1397.  
  1398. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:08 AM]:
  1399. * investment back
  1400.  
  1401. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:16 AM]:
  1402. so you're talking about subsidizing the site using profits from btc bankroll investors
  1403.  
  1404. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:20 AM]:
  1405. let's just be clear
  1406.  
  1407. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:33 AM]:
  1408. In which case their is profit in the site to share in an ongoing basis
  1409.  
  1410. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:20:50 AM]:
  1411. no
  1412.  
  1413. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:20:52 AM]:
  1414. how does this add to profit?
  1415.  
  1416. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:21:04 AM]:
  1417. The profit that bankroll investors made was not profit from initial investment it was profit from intirely another investment they made
  1418.  
  1419. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:21:14 AM]:
  1420. Michael is correct
  1421.  
  1422. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:21:16 AM]:
  1423. It was on the site though
  1424.  
  1425. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:21:41 AM]:
  1426. Why does that matter?
  1427.  
  1428. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:06 AM]:
  1429. I would never have invested in the br if I knew you would even consider doing this.
  1430.  
  1431. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:19 AM]:
  1432. We risked losing our entire investment and even according to you it was considered risky to have 25x when a few max bets could wipe people out
  1433.  
  1434. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:29 AM]:
  1435. This idea kills the site imo
  1436.  
  1437. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:22:42 AM]:
  1438. but you didn't lose
  1439.  
  1440. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:44 AM]:
  1441. no mitigation of risk in case of loss, and you're now taking from profit after we've won
  1442.  
  1443. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:54 AM]:
  1444. thats irrelivant
  1445.  
  1446. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:22:56 AM]:
  1447. if we had lost, you wouldn't have reimbursed us
  1448.  
  1449. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:23:13 AM]:
  1450. i'm taking nothing. my god is this for real? Is no one actually listening or am I typing in a different language?
  1451.  
  1452. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:23:45 AM]:
  1453. obviously I don't mean from your personal account Dean
  1454.  
  1455. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:24:02 AM]:
  1456. If we had lost, we would not have been reimbursed by betking
  1457.  
  1458. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:24:18 AM]:
  1459. Because we've already spoke and realised that there's a very real option that the site closes with no one making anything back. In the pdf it says december as that date.
  1460. So if we are going to go to the effort of trying to save it, then making sure that we recover the initial funds NO MATTER HOW, seems very fair and reasonable to me
  1461.  
  1462. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:24:36 AM]:
  1463. you are thinking about this totally wrong
  1464.  
  1465. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:24:45 AM]:
  1466. I don't understand why this needs to be an inequitable adjustment
  1467.  
  1468. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:25:24 AM]:
  1469. I don't see how
  1470.  
  1471. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:25:46 AM]:
  1472. Don't believe that's true, you can't just elimate extra risk we took because we didn't lose it's ridiculous. That profit was not from our initial investment it was from another investment.
  1473.  
  1474. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:25:49 AM]:
  1475. If a change needs to be made, that's what needs to happen
  1476.  
  1477. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:25:50 AM]:
  1478. ok so you think I should do everything to try and recover ~$2mm from a failed business, which might be impossible btw, but while doing that it's ok for everyone else to make another few hundred k on top but I still need to get you 2mm?
  1479.  
  1480. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:25 AM]:
  1481. no your thinking about the site wrong
  1482.  
  1483. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:26:27 AM]:
  1484. because if that's the case then you make it really unmotivating for me to put another second in to this
  1485.  
  1486. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:32 AM]:
  1487. The only way we make our investment back is if there is a sustainable profitable site. If that is not a goal then we are going to achieve nothing. If there is no commitment to that aim then I don't see how this works.
  1488.  
  1489. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:37 AM]:
  1490. but it doesn't need to be a change that favors certain investors over others based on how successful they have been investing in br
  1491.  
  1492. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:48 AM]:
  1493. making investors hole should not be the goal running a profitable gambling site is the goal
  1494.  
  1495. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:26:54 AM]:
  1496. This
  1497.  
  1498. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:27:07 AM]:
  1499. i beg to differ, here's why....
  1500.  
  1501. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:11 AM]:
  1502. Everyone needs to win in a business. You need to win and us too
  1503.  
  1504. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:12 AM]:
  1505. But that is probably unlikely
  1506.  
  1507. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:14 AM]:
  1508. this
  1509.  
  1510. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:27:19 AM]:
  1511. the site could be profitable and make $20k a year, happy with that?
  1512.  
  1513. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:29 AM]:
  1514. I don’t agree
  1515.  
  1516. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:34 AM]:
  1517. I feel like we go round in this circle so many times
  1518.  
  1519. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:50 AM]:
  1520. It's a waste of time
  1521.  
  1522. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:27:57 AM]:
  1523. No one is talking about 20k a year
  1524.  
  1525. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:02 AM]:
  1526. Dean can you explain to me how the debt balance idea makes profit more likely?
  1527.  
  1528. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:12 AM]:
  1529. what does it add?
  1530.  
  1531. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:12 AM]:
  1532. Sometimes it’s best to acknowledge it isn’t going to work and move on, Dean is doing us a favour here by trying to make us whole before he moves on
  1533.  
  1534. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:30 AM]:
  1535. And that only happens if the site becomes really profitable
  1536.  
  1537. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:38 AM]:
  1538. At which point there is money for us all to make
  1539.  
  1540. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:28:58 AM]:
  1541. We're not making 2m on scraps
  1542.  
  1543. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:29:12 AM]:
  1544. If the point is make the 2m and close a profitable site then it's a waste of time
  1545.  
  1546. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:29:17 AM]:
  1547. That mentality is broken
  1548.  
  1549. Darren G, [29/05/2019 at 10:29:25 AM]:
  1550. Those are good points
  1551.  
  1552. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:30:10 AM]:
  1553. exactly this
  1554.  
  1555. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:30:10 AM]:
  1556. I feel like everyone is well aware that the site failed and was on its last legs, My only goal was to make sure investors didn't lose money investing in me. Then it's started to turn around but no guarantee that it will remain like that (hence why everyone was brought here to discuss) and i still think the goal should be to make people get as much as the original investment back as possible, preferably all. I don't see any real way we make more than that given the current outlook
  1557.  
  1558. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:30:46 AM]:
  1559. To me the goal is make a profitable site
  1560.  
  1561. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:30:56 AM]:
  1562. But how does the debt balance increase revenue?
  1563.  
  1564. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:31:05 AM]:
  1565. I explained above
  1566.  
  1567. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:31:19 AM]:
  1568. about 10-15 mins ago maybe
  1569.  
  1570. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:31:46 AM]:
  1571. You explained that you thought it would give investors more consistent payouts
  1572.  
  1573. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:31:49 AM]:
  1574. is it a waste of time? What if it takes 2-4 years to make 2mm, you want to leave it open 8 years?
  1575.  
  1576. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:01 AM]:
  1577. To make 2mm more?
  1578.  
  1579. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:04 AM]:
  1580. Yeah totally
  1581.  
  1582. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:07 AM]:
  1583. That's a lot of money
  1584.  
  1585. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:38 AM]:
  1586. To make 4mm more? Yeah absolutely
  1587.  
  1588. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:32:49 AM]:
  1589. You're saying that any reorganization would be to prevent failure of betking or get back to reasonable profit level
  1590.  
  1591. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:32:52 AM]:
  1592. well maybe i'll be in a better frame of mind about the whole thing if that is looking likely but right now I don't see me running the site 8 years from now. It's been 6
  1593.  
  1594. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:33:32 AM]:
  1595. u cant auto pilot?
  1596.  
  1597. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:33:59 AM]:
  1598. I feel like that's an issue to address at that time based on results and options that we may not have now
  1599.  
  1600. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:34:04 AM]:
  1601. like selling the site
  1602.  
  1603. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:34:06 AM]:
  1604. etc
  1605.  
  1606. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:34:09 AM]:
  1607. no, that was all part of the other proposals, you know the stuff players care for, features, games etc, all ideas in the pdf. This that I am discussing now is only about making BKB investors get their return faster and that happens if they get a bigger share of the profit that the site is currently making or will make.
  1608. As said, how much of the 170k we made in past few months have you seen?
  1609.  
  1610. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:34:28 AM]:
  1611. None that's true
  1612.  
  1613. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:35:08 AM]:
  1614. Which is because of depressed token price right?
  1615.  
  1616. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:35:17 AM]:
  1617. no
  1618.  
  1619. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:35:27 AM]:
  1620. ?
  1621.  
  1622. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:35:58 AM]:
  1623. token price was the intended means for investors to make the extra profit on commission wasn't it?
  1624.  
  1625. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:36:17 AM]:
  1626. players can mine new tokens with +ev betting and new tokens are being mined faster than we can burn them, it will take a long time before bkb investors start seeing any of the profit with that, then add th fact all the tokens in airdrop and other promos
  1627.  
  1628. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:36:32 AM]:
  1629. exactly
  1630.  
  1631. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:36:37 AM]:
  1632. But it's hard to get incentivised about trying to help here if the aim is to just close something that is built profitblably We're all trying a long shot, and some of the incentive has to be success. If the point is if we succeed and everuonr gets paid out you want out then I'm sure we can get people to run it. Shit I will take it off your hands.
  1633.  
  1634. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:37:24 AM]:
  1635. true
  1636.  
  1637. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:37:32 AM]:
  1638. yeah so direct buybacks make more sense
  1639.  
  1640. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:37:36 AM]:
  1641. I'll definitely agree to that
  1642.  
  1643. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:02 AM]:
  1644. but that's a separate issue from a limit on the profit investors can make right?
  1645.  
  1646. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:38:11 AM]:
  1647. but as said the goal for me is to get people their money back, that is the only thought of mine right now and that requires a profitable business. We're not making 2mm on profits of 3k a week or whatever. And that 2mm could take a long long time
  1648.  
  1649. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:34 AM]:
  1650. Wouldn't it be simpler just to make it a profit share based on who is still invested. That way everyone gets $$$ including Dean
  1651.  
  1652. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:38:35 AM]:
  1653. maybe i wouldn't close, sell could be an option, but regardless the main convern is getting the initial funds asap
  1654.  
  1655. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:55 AM]:
  1656. And that helps move away from this bet mining thing
  1657.  
  1658. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:38:56 AM]:
  1659. I suggested this about 5 min ago
  1660.  
  1661. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:39:21 AM]:
  1662. what way do you mean?
  1663.  
  1664. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:39:54 AM]:
  1665. So if the point is to pay everyone back then if it's profit share at split of investment everyone gets paid back the same % as we go. Including you
  1666.  
  1667. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:10 AM]:
  1668. It's just simple
  1669.  
  1670. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:12 AM]:
  1671. It's direct
  1672.  
  1673. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:40:27 AM]:
  1674. that's what i said though
  1675.  
  1676. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:43 AM]:
  1677. without a cap on potential returns
  1678.  
  1679. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:40:47 AM]:
  1680. that's the difference
  1681.  
  1682. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:40:59 AM]:
  1683. if someone loses 1 btc it is split say 65, 25, 10 between bankroll investors, bkb investors, site
  1684.  
  1685. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:41:42 AM]:
  1686. Without the cap on returns it helps keep the incentive for everyone to pitch in. It covers both the situation if we make little or we make a lot
  1687.  
  1688. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:41:51 AM]:
  1689. It also gets you some money
  1690.  
  1691. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:41:55 AM]:
  1692. So you're not working for free
  1693.  
  1694. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:42:12 AM]:
  1695. and more direct and consistent returns for investors
  1696.  
  1697. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:42:22 AM]:
  1698. " it helps keep the incentive for everyone to pitch in. " for some reason i imagined everyone already had plenty incentive to pitch in
  1699.  
  1700. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:42:51 AM]:
  1701. https://t.me/c/1185068964/551
  1702.  
  1703. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:42:56 AM]:
  1704. That's my thoughts on that
  1705.  
  1706. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:43:02 AM]:
  1707. It would be difficult to quantify the difference if there's a cap or not
  1708.  
  1709. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:43:08 AM]:
  1710. but it's more the principal of the change
  1711.  
  1712. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:43:22 AM]:
  1713. there's doesn't need to be a cap
  1714.  
  1715. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:43:48 AM]:
  1716. I just assumed most people would want to just get the return and move on anyway since it probably still takes a long time.
  1717.  
  1718. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:00 AM]:
  1719. If that's what happens the. That's what happens
  1720.  
  1721. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:07 AM]:
  1722. But I'm still a believer we can make it big
  1723.  
  1724. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:12 AM]:
  1725. Maybe I'm a dreamer
  1726.  
  1727. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:14 AM]:
  1728. It's a good site
  1729.  
  1730. Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:15 AM]:
  1731. How about instead of a debt balance, get rid of bkt and put most of the profits if not all into other highly speculative crypto tokens, one may pay off 100x - we entered a speculative investment with betking, how about we all double down?
  1732.  
  1733. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:44:17 AM]:
  1734. and even if there is no cap I think the debt balance is the best way to do it until that is cleared
  1735.  
  1736. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:17 AM]:
  1737. It works wel
  1738.  
  1739. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:38 AM]:
  1740. No Graham lol
  1741.  
  1742. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:44:49 AM]:
  1743. That seems like unnecessary risk in a domain that we probably know nothing about
  1744.  
  1745. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:45:01 AM]:
  1746. agree, I'd lose more money doing that lol
  1747.  
  1748. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:45:07 AM]:
  1749. agree with patrick^
  1750.  
  1751. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:31 AM]:
  1752. also
  1753.  
  1754. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:33 AM]:
  1755. You can keep a debt balance check running if you want. But it would be ideal to set a structure where we all win or lose together
  1756.  
  1757. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:34 AM]:
  1758. double down with what lol
  1759.  
  1760. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:45:47 AM]:
  1761. And that's what the lack of a cap does even if we never reach it
  1762.  
  1763. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:46:14 AM]:
  1764. yeah maybe debt balance is just a superficial counter for investors' benefit
  1765.  
  1766. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:46:22 AM]:
  1767. but idk why that would be necessary
  1768.  
  1769. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:46:33 AM]:
  1770. I think we all know how much we're down lol
  1771.  
  1772. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:47:35 AM]:
  1773. you would be surprised lol
  1774.  
  1775. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:48:15 AM]:
  1776. I appreciate you all being capable of rational debate even when we're all kinda frustrated and disagree
  1777.  
  1778. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:48:27 AM]:
  1779. I think this is helpful for everyone
  1780.  
  1781. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:48:47 AM]:
  1782. not sure I am lol
  1783.  
  1784. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:49:00 AM]:
  1785. I think we can all agree that something needs to change though
  1786.  
  1787. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:49:14 AM]:
  1788. and it's not as simple as just saying "add blackjack" or whatever
  1789.  
  1790. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:49:18 AM]:
  1791. This is my line of thinking. If the point that Dean wants to leave is everyone is paid back - that I can understand. But at that point a caretaker running the site, making us all a bit of money every year - if it is profitable - seems sensible to me.
  1792.  
  1793. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:49:42 AM]:
  1794. I'd be happy to sell or pass on in that case I think
  1795.  
  1796. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:49:46 AM]:
  1797. With a profit share - even if we never meet the debt cap we're all still winning
  1798.  
  1799. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:00 AM]:
  1800. agree 100%
  1801.  
  1802. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:07 AM]:
  1803. if in 2 years its - its stuck on 200k a year, hiring someone on 60k to keep it going means money in all our pockets
  1804.  
  1805. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:50:14 AM]:
  1806. but then you need buyer to agree to keep those terms and that makes it extremely unlikely to sell
  1807.  
  1808. Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:29 AM]:
  1809. Agree with ccn
  1810.  
  1811. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:32 AM]:
  1812. ill run it for less than 60k
  1813.  
  1814. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:50:50 AM]:
  1815. Selling it is hard - hiring caretakers probably less so
  1816.  
  1817. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:00 AM]:
  1818. It's not a 0 risk move, but its better than nothing
  1819.  
  1820. Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:16 AM]:
  1821. We could do shift work lol
  1822.  
  1823. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:18 AM]:
  1824. but to me that's the end goal, build something that is worthwhile
  1825.  
  1826. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:51:40 AM]:
  1827. if we get it to a place where its not all on dean, cause we can hire 1 - 2 staff then everyone wins
  1828.  
  1829. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:51:50 AM]:
  1830. I think we need to seriously consider removing the tokens though or making some big changes to it. Open to all ideas
  1831.  
  1832. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:51:50 AM]:
  1833. I think we need to seriously consider removing the tokens though or making some big changes to it. Open to all ideas
  1834.  
  1835. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:02 AM]:
  1836. Dean keeps paying back investors including himself, and we all make some money back
  1837.  
  1838. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:05 AM]:
  1839. Yes agree
  1840.  
  1841. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:09 AM]:
  1842. the +ev bet mining hurts
  1843.  
  1844. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:36 AM]:
  1845. If the profit structure was changes so more of the profit went to the ICO investors, instead of the bet miners I could live with that
  1846.  
  1847. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:52 AM]:
  1848. I like the "share" idea. We should be able to buy or sell our shares. Seems simple.
  1849.  
  1850. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:52:52 AM]:
  1851. If we keep profit sharing, I think it's pretty essential to have some way of selling shares
  1852.  
  1853. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:12 AM]:
  1854. I wouldn't go that formal, in buying'selling shares
  1855.  
  1856. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:17 AM]:
  1857. it gets complicated..
  1858.  
  1859. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:26 AM]:
  1860. Lol same thought.
  1861.  
  1862. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:30 AM]:
  1863. give 48 hour notice to investors that offsite bkt will be elimated, lock the exchange, then find out everyones share including the bkt seems fair
  1864.  
  1865. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:40 AM]:
  1866. That's what tokens are for basically, and we already have basic exchange functionality
  1867.  
  1868. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:53:54 AM]:
  1869. this makes sense
  1870.  
  1871. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:01 AM]:
  1872. maybe more than 48, but yeah
  1873.  
  1874. Graham, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:03 AM]:
  1875. Dean, you want to remove token and convert to a debt balance, if that mean keeping the site open do it, things can continually be adjusted, they have been so far. I don't think it should be zero sum though
  1876.  
  1877. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:54:15 AM]:
  1878. it would be better if it was just something behind scenese where your account gets marked as x% based on bkb or whatever, but get rid of the tokens and exchange.
  1879. That way players and new investors dont need to care or know about it and also any weird legal grey areas get removed
  1880.  
  1881. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:30 AM]:
  1882. this makes sense
  1883.  
  1884. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:54:45 AM]:
  1885. ok so lock all the bkt and come up the share everyone has, and u can remove the bkt
  1886.  
  1887. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:04 AM]:
  1888. then just do the buy backs dirently to share
  1889.  
  1890. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:11 AM]:
  1891. in the background
  1892.  
  1893. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:40 AM]:
  1894. And no way to exit. All or nothing. Like a private co.
  1895.  
  1896. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:40 AM]:
  1897. That seems fair and definitely a good first step
  1898.  
  1899. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:47 AM]:
  1900. It just seems inflexible
  1901.  
  1902. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:58 AM]:
  1903. but yeah
  1904.  
  1905. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:55:59 AM]:
  1906. we can always introduce a token that is a profit share later
  1907.  
  1908. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:56:00 AM]:
  1909. what do you mean no way to exit?
  1910.  
  1911. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:02 AM]:
  1912. but for now BKT is an issue
  1913.  
  1914. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:08 AM]:
  1915. so removing it is positive
  1916.  
  1917. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:11 AM]:
  1918. no way to sell shares
  1919.  
  1920. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:56:16 AM]:
  1921. also people who have not swapped to bkt are an issue
  1922.  
  1923. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:50 AM]:
  1924. force swap them, and make them a account that funds go to
  1925.  
  1926. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:56:59 AM]:
  1927. Can't sell shares. But... can sell your betking account i guess.
  1928.  
  1929. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:57:07 AM]:
  1930. ah right, i mean technically you could sell account or get in touch for me to do whatever changes but yeah it would be best if there was no real buy/sell going on
  1931.  
  1932. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:20 AM]:
  1933. maybe force swap and still burn if nobody claims them at the date you previously specified for swap?
  1934.  
  1935. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:24 AM]:
  1936. i think for a while no buying/selling makes sense
  1937.  
  1938. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:33 AM]:
  1939. we need to rebuild betking before anything else
  1940.  
  1941. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 10:57:55 AM]:
  1942. Yeah no marketplace. That's ok w/ me. Private deals only.
  1943.  
  1944. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:58:22 AM]:
  1945. also one benefit of no token and a "private share" setup would be in future it could be much easier to sell and we woul be able to distribute some of that profit to people inistead of me keeping it all lol
  1946.  
  1947. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:00:10 AM]:
  1948. Yeah there would be alot to figure out with a sale, but it seems like it would be simpler this way
  1949.  
  1950. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:01:51 AM]:
  1951. so i'm all for that
  1952.  
  1953. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:01:57 AM]:
  1954. we need to think about the PR of any changes though and how to get the word out to a) not look toally stupid, b) not have people call another scam c) preferably as many investors as possible showing support publically that it's not a scam?
  1955.  
  1956. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:08 AM]:
  1957. i also agree with the suggestion to pseudo swap the BKB hold outs and let them claim later
  1958.  
  1959. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:22 AM]:
  1960. if we start drafting a bitcointalk thread
  1961.  
  1962. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:24 AM]:
  1963. and proof it here
  1964.  
  1965. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:31 AM]:
  1966. we can all be ready to support it when its launched
  1967.  
  1968. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:02:35 AM]:
  1969. cool
  1970.  
  1971. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:02:41 AM]:
  1972. yep
  1973.  
  1974. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:00 AM]:
  1975. Some people will want to sell out of BKT, so may be worth having some really low bids in
  1976.  
  1977. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:16 AM]:
  1978. whats happening with the bkt tho did we come to a solution?
  1979.  
  1980. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:03:16 AM]:
  1981. well, I need to go to bed. Feel free to continue discussion and leaving ideas if any. Will catch up tomorrow
  1982.  
  1983. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:19 AM]:
  1984. night night
  1985.  
  1986. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:21 AM]:
  1987. peace
  1988.  
  1989. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:32 AM]:
  1990. Get rid of it I think. From the sounds of it most people are
  1991.  
  1992. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:03:40 AM]:
  1993. who own BKT are investors here
  1994.  
  1995. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:04:01 AM]:
  1996. so moving form BKT to private shares has little material effect from a token sidde
  1997.  
  1998. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:05:04 AM]:
  1999. Yeah But get rid of it as in the bkt count toward share even if mined or bought
  2000.  
  2001. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:05:36 AM]:
  2002. I agree needs to be thought carefully
  2003.  
  2004. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:05:57 AM]:
  2005. I would probably do the profit share for the ICO investors - in the share they were ICo investors. & Everything else gets bought out at market price now
  2006.  
  2007. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:06:25 AM]:
  2008. i have more BKT than when i started, but i think share in how much is owed to ICo investors has to be the base
  2009.  
  2010. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:06:46 AM]:
  2011. unless someone here put a material amoutn of money into buying BKT - in which case that needs to be sorted
  2012.  
  2013. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:07:24 AM]:
  2014. but i think we need to understand who exactly has the BKT tokens outside of us - and if its material
  2015.  
  2016. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:07:30 AM]:
  2017. there are smaller players who played for just bkt
  2018.  
  2019. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:08:01 AM]:
  2020. I also bought millions and mined millions and I believe VG and others did the same
  2021.  
  2022. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:08:45 AM (29/05/19, 11:09:36 AM)]:
  2023. I think a structure was floated above, something to the extent BankRoll Investors/ICo Holders/Outstanding BKT holders - each paid a share
  2024.  
  2025. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:09:00 AM]:
  2026. and we get rid of the BKT mining going forward
  2027.  
  2028. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:08 AM]:
  2029. I believe the plan was split based on current bkt holdings
  2030.  
  2031. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:16 AM]:
  2032. isn't that the only thing that makes sense?
  2033.  
  2034. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:20 AM]:
  2035. not really
  2036.  
  2037. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:30 AM]:
  2038. if the aim is to pay back ICO holders
  2039.  
  2040. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:38 AM]:
  2041. then people who bought it for nothing, get paid back the same
  2042.  
  2043. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:10:42 AM]:
  2044. doesn't work
  2045.  
  2046. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:00 AM]:
  2047. The people that took on additional risk
  2048.  
  2049. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:25 AM]:
  2050. otherwise you're talking about wiping mistakes made by investors that sold
  2051.  
  2052. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:34 AM]:
  2053. wiping mistakes?
  2054.  
  2055. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:11:46 AM]:
  2056. i'm thinking about the extra BKT that got airdropped and dumped on exchange
  2057.  
  2058. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:12:17 AM]:
  2059. Locking offsite bkt giving 48 hour notice and finding out everyone % seems most fair, and we get rid of all the airdrop people
  2060.  
  2061. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:12:30 AM]:
  2062. I think it would be very bad pr to exclude token holders that didn't invest in ico
  2063.  
  2064. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:12:42 AM]:
  2065. yeah agree with michael
  2066.  
  2067. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:13:22 AM]:
  2068. if the profit share is substantively distorted by those who bought on site rather than in ICO
  2069.  
  2070. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:13:32 AM]:
  2071. whats the point
  2072.  
  2073. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:13:58 AM]:
  2074. there has to be a balance point
  2075.  
  2076. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:14:19 AM]:
  2077. people that bought or mined bkt took risk of future profits, just excluding them would not fly well imo
  2078.  
  2079. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:14:33 AM]:
  2080. The point is those who hold tokens are the investors
  2081.  
  2082. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:14:50 AM]:
  2083. the fact that they got a better deal because betking wasn't doing well isn't relevant
  2084.  
  2085. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:07 AM]:
  2086. the aim is first and foremost to pay back ICO holders
  2087.  
  2088. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:11 AM]:
  2089. that's why Dean is keeping this going
  2090.  
  2091. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:15 AM]:
  2092. anyone that sold thought the money was worth more than their stake in the company
  2093.  
  2094. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:51 AM]:
  2095. That seems very arbitrary
  2096.  
  2097. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:15:51 AM]:
  2098. and I still think we have a issue with elimtating the previous profit investors made, believe it is unfair ro take it back, since had we lost we had not been paid back and it was more investment that generated that profit
  2099.  
  2100. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:16:02 AM]:
  2101. i agree with that
  2102.  
  2103. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:16:07 AM]:
  2104. bankroll profit =/= any other profit
  2105.  
  2106. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:17:37 AM]:
  2107. Profit Share = 50% Bankroll/35% Remaining BKB ICo Investors my %/15% Buyback outstanding BKT
  2108.  
  2109. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:17:58 AM]:
  2110. that's my suggestion
  2111.  
  2112. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:27 AM]:
  2113. The BKT people keep getting what they've been promised to date
  2114.  
  2115. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:33 AM]:
  2116. BKB people start getting paid back
  2117.  
  2118. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:39 AM]:
  2119. Bankroll people keep getting their $$$
  2120.  
  2121. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:18:53 AM]:
  2122. All btk holders should be treated the same and in proportion to their holdings. If we even have 99% treated the same there will be a shitstorm from the 1% - even if they were airdroppers or bounty hunters. I think there should be an announcement made, then allow people to buy and sell on the exchange their bkt - it will stabilize based on transparent info provided, and then make the move back to % share based on bkt holdings. Formula for profit share needs to be agreed on.
  2123.  
  2124. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:07 AM]:
  2125. i've no itnerest in helping BKT investors who bout for 1/10000 of what i put in
  2126.  
  2127. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:14 AM]:
  2128. they can come in here and make this succesfful instead
  2129.  
  2130. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:21 AM]:
  2131. this
  2132.  
  2133. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:54 AM]:
  2134. it's not about whether we want them to profit
  2135.  
  2136. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:19:55 AM]:
  2137. You realise you're talking about a site that should for all intents and purposs be shut down?
  2138.  
  2139. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:10 AM]:
  2140. and the onlyu reason its not is that Dean wants to pay back BKB ICO investors
  2141.  
  2142. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:21 AM]:
  2143. it's about betking paying it's debts and avoiding more scam allegations
  2144.  
  2145. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:27 AM]:
  2146. if we're just going ot enrich those who chanced on BKT, only, then shut it down
  2147.  
  2148. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:38 AM]:
  2149. i'm not here for them
  2150.  
  2151. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:40 AM]:
  2152. it's a pr issue
  2153.  
  2154. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:45 AM]:
  2155. yeah but you can try and payback ico investors while screw over the other people who thought they were investing as well
  2156.  
  2157. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:46 AM]:
  2158. not about the money
  2159.  
  2160. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:54 AM]:
  2161. then don't screw anyone
  2162.  
  2163. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:20:59 AM]:
  2164. without +ev betting BKT value will rise
  2165.  
  2166. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:02 AM]:
  2167. it can still be bought back
  2168.  
  2169. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:13 AM]:
  2170. BKB people can gt some of the debt paid back directly, quicker
  2171.  
  2172. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:44 AM]:
  2173. seems more complicated, but may actually be better for pr
  2174.  
  2175. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:49 AM (29/05/19, 11:22:16 AM)]:
  2176. if the only solution we have to offer is, pay out all the BKT people, then we are never seeing a cent
  2177.  
  2178. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:21:57 AM]:
  2179. and that sucks for all of us
  2180.  
  2181. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:22:40 AM]:
  2182. if you guys think its unworkable then i'm out of ideas tbqh
  2183.  
  2184. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:22:47 AM]:
  2185. I'm just saying it's essentially just clawing back equity
  2186.  
  2187. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:22:59 AM]:
  2188. i think you are right
  2189.  
  2190. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:03 AM]:
  2191. we need to buy back the outstanding BKT
  2192.  
  2193. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:13 AM]:
  2194. There are no such people as "bkb" people and "bkt" people. It's a continuum. Let's look at the numbers: what % bkt held by people who never invested in bkb? Is it 5% or 85% or what?
  2195.  
  2196. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:24 AM]:
  2197. ok lets ge tthat number
  2198.  
  2199. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:32 AM]:
  2200. we need to understand the distortion
  2201.  
  2202. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:23:38 AM]:
  2203. if its small who cares
  2204.  
  2205. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:24:28 AM]:
  2206. ...right. except they need to still feel they are being treated fairly so that we don't get the bad pr.
  2207.  
  2208. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:24:35 AM]:
  2209. as in if its small
  2210.  
  2211. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:24:37 AM]:
  2212. give them the %
  2213.  
  2214. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:08 AM]:
  2215. do the straight conversion, as you're suggesting
  2216.  
  2217. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:22 AM]:
  2218. conversion of what?
  2219.  
  2220. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:25 AM]:
  2221. to profit share
  2222.  
  2223. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:36 AM]:
  2224. but if the number is bigger, it's more of an issue not to pay out bkt holders
  2225.  
  2226. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:38 AM]:
  2227. the 50/35/15?
  2228.  
  2229. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:25:59 AM]:
  2230. so the initial suggestion you guys are for - is to convert all bkt to profit share in propostion
  2231.  
  2232. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:29 AM]:
  2233. if the distortion is small, from bkb to bkt, to new investors. Then just doing that for ease of process works
  2234.  
  2235. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:36 AM]:
  2236. right?
  2237.  
  2238. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:48 AM]:
  2239. or is this not what you propose?
  2240.  
  2241. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:26:52 AM]:
  2242. but if the difference is big, it's more of a pr issue right
  2243.  
  2244. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:07 AM]:
  2245. if its big, i reccomend the 50/35/15 approach
  2246.  
  2247. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:11 AM]:
  2248. maybe people won't pay attention
  2249.  
  2250. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:16 AM]:
  2251. without the +ev bet mining
  2252.  
  2253. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:20 AM]:
  2254. it'll get boought up quick
  2255.  
  2256. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:32 AM]:
  2257. maybe we can meet in middle and dilute them by half and keep it 50/50 bankroll investors/investors
  2258.  
  2259. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:44 AM]:
  2260. could do
  2261.  
  2262. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:48 AM]:
  2263. like i got extra BKT as well
  2264.  
  2265. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:27:50 AM]:
  2266. liek you guys
  2267.  
  2268. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:02 AM]:
  2269. but i'm trying to see if we can make it work from PR angle
  2270.  
  2271. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:08 AM]:
  2272. while getting to the aim
  2273.  
  2274. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:37 AM]:
  2275. Paying out bkt holders instead of bkb holders would definitely not be in my interest
  2276.  
  2277. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:28:46 AM]:
  2278. I just don't see how anything else makes sense
  2279.  
  2280. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:30 AM]:
  2281. so looking at the site
  2282.  
  2283. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:38 AM]:
  2284. excluding the airrop (675m tokens)
  2285.  
  2286. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:43 AM]:
  2287. Let's get the objective numbers from Dean and then make a plan that makes sense so it's as fair as possible and turns everyone into supporters. Even some non-ico airdrop dumpers who forgot to sell.
  2288.  
  2289. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:48 AM]:
  2290. Dilute them by half it should seem fair since they were accumulated early before we got many halvings in so it shoudnt hurt pr much
  2291.  
  2292. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:29:50 AM]:
  2293. there are approx 260m tokens, out there
  2294.  
  2295. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:02 AM]:
  2296. while 450m BKB token holders to BKT
  2297.  
  2298. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:21 AM]:
  2299. so the dilution at minimum for BKB holders would be 33% - and more depending on airdrop
  2300.  
  2301. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:23 AM]:
  2302. there probably only about 500million bkt on site
  2303.  
  2304.  
  2305. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:41 AM]:
  2306. https://betking.io/token
  2307.  
  2308. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:30:47 AM]:
  2309. just looking here, for the figures
  2310.  
  2311. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:31:49 AM]:
  2312. 33% dilution is livable i think
  2313.  
  2314. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:32:33 AM]:
  2315. Lol that's a lot
  2316.  
  2317. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:32:37 AM]:
  2318. if we use the 50% suggestion 17.5% is better?
  2319.  
  2320. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:33:22 AM]:
  2321. or continue to buy them out, as we do now, on the market
  2322.  
  2323. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:33:35 AM]:
  2324. I think it's very unlikely that very many airdropped bkt would make it back to the site in time for conversion to private shares though
  2325.  
  2326. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:33:52 AM]:
  2327. i'm just looking at the bet mined outstanding
  2328.  
  2329. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:00 AM]:
  2330. 432m betmined
  2331.  
  2332. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:03 AM]:
  2333. 233 bought back
  2334.  
  2335. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:06 AM]:
  2336. oh jesus
  2337.  
  2338. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:08 AM]:
  2339. that's 200 there - all earned on site
  2340.  
  2341. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:30 AM]:
  2342. some were sold offsite that were onsite
  2343.  
  2344. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:39 AM]:
  2345. probably more than came from offsite to onsite
  2346.  
  2347. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:34:58 AM]:
  2348. peoople who actually bought the tokens
  2349.  
  2350. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:05 AM]:
  2351. are gonna be the most enraged
  2352.  
  2353. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:14 AM]:
  2354. if they get squeezed out by a short window
  2355.  
  2356. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:22 AM]:
  2357. agree
  2358.  
  2359. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:35 AM]:
  2360. I don't have any better suggestions right now, so i'll summarise where we got to then sleep :)
  2361.  
  2362. Patrick, [29/05/2019 at 11:35:36 AM]:
  2363. I would be enraged
  2364.  
  2365. Michael m, [29/05/2019 at 11:36:11 AM]:
  2366. its probably only a few people and we can give notice, as someone said I doubt many airdropped tokens will get wind
  2367.  
  2368. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:36:46 AM (29/05/19, 11:38:08 AM)]:
  2369. Option 1) Stop distributing BKT , buy back with 15% of profit, 35% to BKB holdouts, 50% to Bankroll
  2370. Option 2) Short window (2 days - 1 week) for on site transfer - dilute BKT holdings by 1/2 for profit share token
  2371. Option 3)???
  2372.  
  2373. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:37:01 AM]:
  2374. i'll let others hopefully get further than me
  2375.  
  2376. Peter, [29/05/2019 at 11:38:24 AM]:
  2377. Not so much if we turn it into an opportunity to join in the profit sharing. Like I said, make an anouncement and let the dumpers meet the buyers.
  2378.  
  2379. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:38:33 AM]:
  2380. true
  2381.  
  2382. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 11:38:39 AM]:
  2383. good night folks catch you soon
  2384.  
  2385. Redx, [29/05/2019 at 5:29:54 PM]:
  2386. Are we going to allow bkb holders who swaped to bkt to swap back?
  2387.  
  2388. CCN CCN, [29/05/2019 at 6:15:29 PM]:
  2389. Yeah
  2390.  
  2391. Graham, [29/05/2019 at 7:57:09 PM]:
  2392. Well I must have it muddled, but I spent btc for more bkt
  2393.  
  2394. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 7:57:21 PM]:
  2395. ok
  2396.  
  2397. David, [29/05/2019 at 8:21:20 PM]:
  2398. Can someone explain to me what bet mining is?
  2399.  
  2400. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:22:40 PM]:
  2401. 30% of all BKT is locked. It is released when players bet using btc, eth, ltc, eos.
  2402. For every $ you bet you were getting 100 BKT. The reward halves every 150,000,000 released.
  2403. So currently the reward is 25 bkt per $1 bet
  2404.  
  2405. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:22:58 PM]:
  2406. it was to encourage betting with "real" money
  2407.  
  2408. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:24:13 PM]:
  2409. which it has done but there seems to be two types of player. Those playing with btc etc to win btc and don't care for the bkt.
  2410. Those who specifically bet to "mine" bkt because they can sell it for more than they lose.
  2411. e.g. maybe you lose $100 betting to the house edge but you can sell BKT for $110. This is a waste imo
  2412.  
  2413. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:26:30 PM]:
  2414. if you look at the betking exchange right now, there's 6mm being sold for 6 sats, 7 sats and 8 sats. At each price level there is a BKB investor who is selling 5mm BKT at each level. They got this BKT by bet mining. They wouldn't be making a loss on their bets after selling that but also essentially get more of the buyback pool from "legit" players losing and keeps us constantly buying up mined tokens at a low price
  2415.  
  2416. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:27:15 PM]:
  2417. most of the order book is actually made up of BKB holders who have gained more by bet mining or in promos like the daily leaderboard. It's not full of normal players who deposit btc to play
  2418.  
  2419. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:29:19 PM]:
  2420. also for people saying about "they risked x to get bkt or btc from investing" it still doesn't matter imo. It's in the past and you never lost.
  2421.  
  2422. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:34:16 PM]:
  2423. will get complete stats by end of the day for
  2424. 1) how much bkt is on site by non bkb holders
  2425. 2) how much bkt was earned by each person from bet mining or promos, what it cost them and if they are net +ve or not
  2426. 3) how much was bought on exchange (can also track buys on newdex) and how much was sold and what net profit is
  2427. 4) how much bkt is in airdropped accounts that still hasn't moved
  2428. 5) how much is on external exchanges
  2429. 6) how much profit bkb holders have made by investing in the bankroll
  2430. 7) How much BKB has not been swapped and how much is on site vs off
  2431. 8) price of each crypto on 4th september after ico and bkb price then
  2432.  
  2433. Any others? Think this would give us enough info on what route to go
  2434.  
  2435. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:36:39 PM]:
  2436. We could probably do things in steps
  2437. 1) alert the external exchanges that we are decommissioning the token in x days and they should stop deposits and remove it
  2438. 2) warn that we are stopping deposits of it
  2439. 3) stop deposits of bkt
  2440. 4) remove bet mining (maybe do this first)
  2441. 5) remove the daily leaderboard
  2442. 6) warn that we are removing the buyback pools (as we will change to splitting commission to bankrollers, bkb/bkt holders, site
  2443.  
  2444. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:38:41 PM]:
  2445. this was the price of crypto on 4th september when we finalised at end of ico
  2446.  
  2447. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 8:39:11 PM]:
  2448. btc: 4596.8, eth: 351.21, ltc:78.51
  2449.  
  2450. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:25:05 PM]:
  2451. Should we just announce now that we will stop bet mining on say Friday?
  2452.  
  2453. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 9:27:01 PM (29/05/19, 9:27:07 PM)]:
  2454. remove both bet mining and the daily leaderboard (lb could be replaced with a non bkt one in future)
  2455.  
  2456. Nicola, [29/05/2019 at 9:57:55 PM]:
  2457. Can you recap the main points of what'll done?
  2458.  
  2459. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:28:28 PM]:
  2460. There's 670 accounts (not individuals as some are owned by same person) who have BKT balance on BetKing that don't have a BKB balance and didn't swap BKB.
  2461. This totals 69.5 million BKT
  2462.  
  2463. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:37:24 PM]:
  2464. from breif check it looks like at least 5% of that is owned by bkb investors who have bkb offsite.
  2465. the rest have either recieved in bet mining + leaderboard, affiliate earnings or airdrop
  2466.  
  2467. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:39:11 PM]:
  2468. quite weird to see someone with a buy order of 69 million too lol, that is not me
  2469.  
  2470. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:41:11 PM]:
  2471. 537mm BKT on site held by people who have bkb or swapped bkb for bkt
  2472.  
  2473. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 10:53:02 PM]:
  2474. while checking here there's only been 470 accounts that have bet on site since feb, a lot will be multiaccounts too, pretty small number of players
  2475.  
  2476. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:34:19 PM]:
  2477. ok can everyone vote over the next 24 hours on first step to stop bet mining?
  2478. we can do either
  2479. 1) bet mining will stop on x date
  2480. 2) bet mining will stop when x tokens mined, next logical one would be 450mm as that would have been next halving of the reward.
  2481. we can say that all those tokens reserved for mining will be burned on that date too.
  2482.  
  2483. this seems the least disasterous changed from a pr standpoint and we could give it a week or two to see how volume is after mining stops?
  2484.  
  2485. Graham, [29/05/2019 at 11:37:45 PM]:
  2486. 🗳2
  2487.  
  2488. John Deer, [29/05/2019 at 11:39:36 PM]:
  2489. #2
  2490.  
  2491. Dean (BetKing Admin), [29/05/2019 at 11:40:22 PM]:
  2492. there was also an option of not removong bet miing that i forgot to list
  2493.  
  2494. Graham, [29/05/2019 at 11:43:19 PM]:
  2495. Still #2
  2496.  
  2497. CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 12:06:41 AM]:
  2498. 1
  2499.  
  2500. KingGD, [30/05/2019 at 1:30:25 AM]:
  2501. I want to vote#1 actually as soon as possible, however #2 looks more reasonable to users.
  2502.  
  2503. David, [30/05/2019 at 1:51:10 AM]:
  2504. 1
  2505.  
  2506. Peter, [30/05/2019 at 2:15:48 AM]:
  2507. 1 with an explanation that shows benefits of the decision. No casino gives such a +ev game. It's a free atm for anyone smart enough to automate and rapidly cash out, driving price down to minimum.
  2508.  
  2509. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:25:33 AM]:
  2510. ok so, 2 vote to cancel on next halving, 4 vote for cancel on a date, i assume asap.No one against removing bet mining.
  2511. I'd vote for removing it aap too.
  2512. anyone else? i think we can do it as early as friday or sat
  2513.  
  2514. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:35:52 AM]:
  2515. just got a message from the guys at Chintai exchange looking to claim BKT for their users from the airdrop.
  2516. looking at the accounts there's some people who have 50,000 to 100k eos and one account that has 300,000 eos.
  2517. we were doing 3.2 BKT per eos in the accounts (up to a max of 250,000 eos).
  2518.  
  2519. be alright i them getting the tokens meant they would play on site with their eos but probably unlikely
  2520.  
  2521. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:38:45 AM]:
  2522. 1699283 eos in total in their accounts so about 5.6mm BKT that would be distributed.
  2523. doesn't sound too much, worth a try?
  2524.  
  2525. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:42:13 AM]:
  2526. risking 5.4mm extra bkt tokens that we can buy back cheap to make up to $11mm in eos? 😂
  2527.  
  2528. CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 3:43:07 AM]:
  2529. I'd just say we don't give tokens to exchange accounts
  2530.  
  2531. CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 3:43:31 AM]:
  2532. If other eos people didn't play
  2533.  
  2534. CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 3:43:36 AM]:
  2535. Not sure why these guys would
  2536.  
  2537. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:47:16 AM]:
  2538. i had contacted them initially, back in feb. It's been a hassle for them to try and work out the amount in accounts apparently and just got back with amounts today. But I did say we probbaly can't. but if we drop and it brings noting and we remove the token then no real harm anyway? At worse we could buy them back for 1 satoshi each or less maybe, 0.054 btc
  2539.  
  2540. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 3:53:07 AM]:
  2541. and these guys would get more of a notification as they would get told by exchange too
  2542.  
  2543. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 4:07:57 AM (30/05/19, 4:46:29 AM)]:
  2544. even the guy at the exchange thinks it's best to not give out the tokens 🤨
  2545.  
  2546. Peter, [30/05/2019 at 6:00:16 AM]:
  2547. You announced it with no reason why or benefit. So far no big reaction in tg group. Even 1 guy interested in investing lol. Surprising.
  2548.  
  2549. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 6:02:43 AM]:
  2550. there was a small sell on our exchange and on newdex
  2551.  
  2552. Peter, [30/05/2019 at 6:09:40 AM]:
  2553. ...and the one guy in the tg chat wondering how we make money when people lose their bets. Unreal. We need more players like that.
  2554.  
  2555. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 8:27:53 PM]:
  2556. So first step done then. Bet mining will be removed on Sturday.
  2557. Do we wait a week or more before deciding anything else to do with token to see how bet volume is after removing it or do we still move to removing tokens totally as discussed?
  2558.  
  2559. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 8:29:11 PM]:
  2560. As a side note, there's still a few people who haven't swapped their BKB yet. I gave a deadling of august 19th. Should I try contacting them all again or wait until we decide what's next? I made it clear that no one will be able to deposit or swap BKB for BKT after august, they will lose initial investment if they don't
  2561.  
  2562. CCN CCN, [30/05/2019 at 8:43:44 PM]:
  2563. The main issue is resolved imo. Happy to wait and see what happens with bet volume first
  2564.  
  2565. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 9:34:23 PM]:
  2566. well there's still the profit distribution issue.
  2567.  
  2568. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 9:34:53 PM]:
  2569. If we are going to burn the tokens reserved for bet mining and now not distributing to exchanged (just turned down chintai) should we just burn the airdrop reserves too this weekend?
  2570.  
  2571. Dean (BetKing Admin), [30/05/2019 at 9:35:39 PM]:
  2572. that would burn 48% of all tokens
  2573.  
  2574. Graham, [30/05/2019 at 9:39:09 PM]:
  2575. Yes, may as well.
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