1:16 PM - Dr. Alphys: headcanon: sans voiced by danny devito
1:17 PM - CrazyMLC: lol
1:17 PM - CrazyMLC: a lot of people headcanon his voice as critikal apparently
1:18 PM - Dr. Alphys: yeah it's all lowercase
1:37 PM - CrazyMLC is now playing Dungeon Defenders II. Click here to join.
1:48 PM - Dr. Alphys: i was going to suggest you should play dota with me sometime but it's not your thing is it
1:52 PM - CrazyMLC: i don't like it
1:52 PM - CrazyMLC: no problem with mobas in general
1:52 PM - CrazyMLC: but i don't like dota very much
1:52 PM - Dr. Alphys: hm
1:52 PM - Dr. Alphys: any particular reason?
1:53 PM - CrazyMLC: extremely snowbally
1:53 PM - CrazyMLC: some items are annoyingly strong
1:53 PM - CrazyMLC: items like blink dagger being required for many to function
1:55 PM - Dr. Alphys: eh, items being core on different heroes is nothing new. and it's slightly more prevalent in dota where items are much more impactful than in league
1:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: snowbally is really dubious
1:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: it very much depends on team comp
1:56 PM - Dr. Alphys: a team can be crshing it early and lose late-game because their comp was weighted toward early
1:57 PM - CrazyMLC: games i had were not positive experiences
1:57 PM - Dr. Alphys: fair, some of them aren't
1:59 PM - CrazyMLC: i particularly remember trying to farm to be relevant and some ranged assassin sneaking up on me using some invisibility item and two shotting me
1:59 PM - CrazyMLC: when i was a tank
1:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: hm
1:59 PM - Dr. Alphys: i'm not sure who that'd be
2:00 PM - CrazyMLC: that's not really my point
2:00 PM - CrazyMLC: but it was the green flying one
2:00 PM - Dr. Alphys: viper
2:00 PM - CrazyMLC: yea
2:00 PM - Dr. Alphys: what hero were you playing?
2:00 PM - CrazyMLC: big one with tentacles popping out of the ground knocking people up
2:00 PM - Dr. Alphys: tide
2:01 PM - CrazyMLC: yea
2:02 PM - Dr. Alphys: that's bizarre and sounds almost exclusively like something that'd happen when someone's far behind in levels because of disconnecting for 10 minutes or something? like that sounds like a bizarre situation
2:03 PM - CrazyMLC: they were ludicrously fed
2:03 PM - CrazyMLC: i hate the idea of an item that can make you turn invisible
2:03 PM - CrazyMLC: and i think dota's itemization options are stupid
2:03 PM - Dr. Alphys: not that i'm saying you d/c'd, i'm just saying that viper 100-0'ing tide would be rare outside of situations where viper is level 11 and tide is 1
2:04 PM - CrazyMLC: i also remember my entire team getting demolished by the logging hero
2:04 PM - Dr. Alphys: logging hero
2:04 PM - Dr. Alphys: timbersaw?
2:04 PM - CrazyMLC: yea
2:06 PM - Dr. Alphys: kills don't get you that far ahead in the long run, farming isn't necessarily faster but a lot of the time the main benefit of a kill in dota isn't getting bonus gold off it, it's that you're stopping the opponent from farming and getting them off the map
2:06 PM - CrazyMLC: death timers are long
2:06 PM - CrazyMLC: means you lose the game
2:06 PM - Dr. Alphys: they're very short in the early game
2:06 PM - Dr. Alphys: like 5 seconds long
2:07 PM - Dr. Alphys: if you die early
2:07 PM - CrazyMLC: travel time is long
2:07 PM - Dr. Alphys: tp scrolls are meant to be used at every point in the game
2:07 PM - CrazyMLC: i also hate those
2:07 PM - CrazyMLC: and the courier
2:08 PM - Dr. Alphys: oh?
2:10 PM - CrazyMLC: using them doesn't come naturally to me and i don't like dealing with them
2:12 PM - Dr. Alphys: hm
2:12 PM - Dr. Alphys: shrug
2:12 PM - Dr. Alphys: well let me know if you ever want to play together sometime, ok? matches are literally always better with friends
2:12 PM - CrazyMLC: i prefer league primarily because i already have gotten past the barrier of entry
2:12 PM - Dr. Alphys: yeah
2:12 PM - Dr. Alphys: that's honestly what it sounds like to me
2:13 PM - Dr. Alphys: not being used to a lot of dota's mechanics or knowing how to deal with things like invis
2:13 PM - Dr. Alphys: the prevalence of invis in dota seems fucking OP to newer players all the time but it USED to be the case with league as well
2:14 PM - Dr. Alphys: back when evelyn and twitch had long-term invisibility that allowed them to stick on top of people
2:14 PM - Dr. Alphys: without being seen
2:14 PM - Dr. Alphys: they were naturall newbie killers
2:14 PM - CrazyMLC: i don't mind it on individuals honestly
2:14 PM - CrazyMLC: i mind them being available to everyone
2:15 PM - Dr. Alphys: why does that bug you so much more than it being available on individuals? honest question
2:15 PM - Dr. Alphys: because i can see it's different but it's hard to see why it'd change one's opinion so strongly
2:15 PM - CrazyMLC: it's easier to balance indivduals around the mechanic
2:15 PM - CrazyMLC: than entire games
2:16 PM - Dr. Alphys: i think dota does a pretty decent job of both, there are both items and heroes who are huge counters to invis
2:16 PM - Dr. Alphys: as well as playstyle changes that help deal with invis, just like in any game with stealth
2:17 PM - CrazyMLC: ehhhhh
2:18 PM - Dr. Alphys: and i think you can make an argument for either one being easier to balance than the other
2:19 PM - Dr. Alphys: with an item being accessible to everyone, it's hard to say that mechanic is 'OP' when everyone has access to it, yeah? and the solutions to invisibility affect every hero who might even build one of those items, not just the heroes who have invis
2:19 PM - Dr. Alphys: though i do agree that if a hero or a couple heroes have exclusive access to one mechanci it means that the mechanic can be dealt with with balancing factors and the hero's design
2:24 PM - CrazyMLC: if an item makes you instakill on hit
2:24 PM - CrazyMLC: is it op? i mean everyone has access
2:24 PM - CrazyMLC: :U
2:26 PM - Dr. Alphys: the item's OP when compared to other items but it doesn't disrupt game balance between heroes or players, because all heroes and players can build it
2:26 PM - CrazyMLC: what if the only way to defend against it is just as hard to get
2:26 PM - CrazyMLC: first person with enoguh money to buy either gets the instakill item
2:26 PM - CrazyMLC: kills everyone
2:26 PM - CrazyMLC: wins the game
2:27 PM - CrazyMLC: it's a race to who gets the item first
2:27 PM - Dr. Alphys: you've portrayed an interesting system of absurdist game design that doesn't seem to parallel dota well at all
2:27 PM - Dr. Alphys: but i mean
2:28 PM - CrazyMLC: i'm taking it to the extreme
2:28 PM - Dr. Alphys: if you're talking about a game in exactly all ways
2:28 PM - CrazyMLC: to make it easier to discuss
2:28 PM - Dr. Alphys: like dota
2:28 PM - Dr. Alphys: except with the existence of these two items
2:29 PM - Dr. Alphys: then the meta would balance around protecting one hero who farms/gets kills quickly enough to get the item before the enemy team has access, while the enemy team does the same thing. while getting an early advantage and making the item quickly puts the game in your favor, it's possible to rack up the money to make that poweful item (or its counter) in safer spots on the map, for instance jungling or farming safe lanes
2:30 PM - CrazyMLC: just because the meta can adapt doesn't mean it's healthy for the game or fun
2:30 PM - CrazyMLC: it crowds out other item options
2:31 PM - Dr. Alphys: this is true, but again, your taking it to the extreme isn't helping the discussion in any way that's relevant to dota because it's not even remotely relevant to shadow blade
2:31 PM - CrazyMLC: and if you have an item to counteract the power of the instakill item and it's expected that you buy it to counter it
2:31 PM - Dr. Alphys: for instance, shadow blade is 2800 gold. sentry wards are... 200 gold. for two of them
2:31 PM - CrazyMLC: what's the point in having the instakill item so strong
2:31 PM - CrazyMLC: so that you need to counter it every game
2:32 PM - Dr. Alphys: shadow blade isn't even remotely as powerful as that analogy would make it seem regardless, since it's only core on a handful of heroes
2:33 PM - CrazyMLC: still, i think dota's items are pretty absurd
2:33 PM - Dr. Alphys: they're different from league's and it's hard to get used to for a lot of people who played league first
2:33 PM - Dr. Alphys: almost every item in the game changes the game in some way -- at least finished items. and almost all of them have some form of counterplay
2:34 PM - CrazyMLC: i may not play it ever again
2:34 PM - CrazyMLC: and it'd take some kind of grand realization to be able to stand playing it
2:35 PM - CrazyMLC: it annoys me that the items have counterplay that you have to purchase ahead of time, instead of having it inherent in their mechanics
2:35 PM - CrazyMLC: like you have to buy their coutnerplay
2:35 PM - Dr. Alphys: counterplay is usually responsive, i don't see people buying dust or sentries before the enemy has a glimmer cape or shadow blade
2:35 PM - Dr. Alphys: though i do see people buying sentries if they know they're going to lane against brood, but that's standard
2:35 PM - CrazyMLC: why doesn't shadow blade instead have a passive where it drains 200 gold from every enemy periodically
2:36 PM - CrazyMLC: it's have the same effect
2:36 PM - CrazyMLC: except noobies wouldn't get fucked
2:36 PM - CrazyMLC: :U
2:36 PM - Dr. Alphys: because on top of sentries and dust there is also gem and heroes that counter invis
2:37 PM - Dr. Alphys: gem being a permanent item that lets you see invis but drops on death, encouraging you to put it on a resilient hero and protect them
2:37 PM - CrazyMLC: that's a lot of game knowledge to need just to be able to not die to someone who can turn invisible
2:38 PM - Dr. Alphys: the same counters to invisibility that exist in league exist though, too. towers are still a thing, safe places to farm are usually a thing
2:38 PM - CrazyMLC: it just pisses me off
2:38 PM - CrazyMLC: i'm not saying the game is broken i'm saying they're overpowered in the scoep that i'm used to
2:39 PM - Dr. Alphys: yeah
2:39 PM - CrazyMLC: and that it doesn't make sense to me
2:39 PM - CrazyMLC: and that i can't make peace with it
2:39 PM - Dr. Alphys: i mean, when i played hots nova and zeratul were fucking obnoxious
2:39 PM - Dr. Alphys: but that's because i was playing at a lower level where people weren't good at dealing with them
2:39 PM - CrazyMLC: nova is weak imo
2:39 PM - CrazyMLC: but yeah zeratul is annoying
2:40 PM - Dr. Alphys: zeratul was hella annoying to play against and fun to play with
2:40 PM - CrazyMLC: i'm not complaining about invisibility as a mechanic
2:40 PM - CrazyMLC: there were lots of things about dota that bothered me
2:40 PM - CrazyMLC: that was just one example
2:40 PM - CrazyMLC: i'd have to play again to remember them all and i don't know if i really want to
2:40 PM - Dr. Alphys: what bothered me about hots is that their invisibility was so... pointless against high-level players? like it was basically a matter of being /used/ to seeing the invisibility and then the heroes were actually way, WAY worse
2:41 PM - Dr. Alphys: because invis heroes were always actually /visibile/, just not targetable and blended in with the background a bit
2:41 PM - CrazyMLC: it's like shaco it's easy to tell which is real if you pay attention
2:41 PM - CrazyMLC: i believe that while sometimes interesting those kinds of things are just
2:41 PM - Dr. Alphys: yeah, but at least shaco's has a point outside of fooling people -- the duplicate does damage and explodes for more damage
2:42 PM - CrazyMLC: hard to play against if you don't know what's going on
2:42 PM - CrazyMLC: and make the game less fun
2:42 PM - CrazyMLC: you might say i'm a filthy casual
2:42 PM - Dr. Alphys: yes, with hots what really frustrated me was that invis seemed like a noob killer because there was no counter outside of straight up picking tassadar (and since most people are playing unranked, good luck making that matchup work out)
2:42 PM - Dr. Alphys: like no 'item' you can build
2:42 PM - Dr. Alphys: and only one hero off the top of my head
2:43 PM - Dr. Alphys: and the invis mechanics were permanent
2:43 PM - CrazyMLC: the good thing is that the invisibility isn't actually that strong
2:43 PM - Dr. Alphys: yeah, but that's what get me -- the balancing factor is that the invis is near useless against higher level players
2:43 PM - Dr. Alphys: who will just see your shimmers
2:43 PM - Dr. Alphys: and know to back off
2:43 PM - CrazyMLC: well that's kind of how it is if you just have invis spotting wards everywhere right
2:43 PM - CrazyMLC: except noobs can maybe tell what's going on too if they pay attention
2:44 PM - CrazyMLC: it makes it more accessible
2:44 PM - CrazyMLC: like invisibility didn't mess with me much in hots
2:44 PM - Dr. Alphys: invis is always hard on newbies, the difference in dota is that it's still useful against higher-level players
2:44 PM - Dr. Alphys: at least imho
2:45 PM - CrazyMLC: but yeah the whole purpose of invisibility is sneaking up and surprising people without giving them a chance to react
2:45 PM - CrazyMLC: that's the inherent problem
2:45 PM - CrazyMLC: because if you don't have a chance to react or defend yourself
2:45 PM - CrazyMLC: then the game stops being fun
2:46 PM - CrazyMLC: and if you don't know what you're supposed to do against it then that's what happens
2:46 PM - Dr. Alphys: in dota it at least feels like counterplay to me, with hots it feels like bullshit "oh, well if i had squinted a bit harder i wouldn't have died"
2:46 PM - Dr. Alphys: i'm going to work, sorry to cut this short
2:46 PM - Dr. Alphys: talk to you later
2:46 PM - CrazyMLC: alright
2:46 PM - Dr. Alphys: and let me know if you ever want to give dota a shot, it's much more fun if you're playing with friends or someone who knows about its weird quirks
2:46 PM - CrazyMLC: i was
2:46 PM - CrazyMLC: it didn't make it mroe fun
2:46 PM - Dr. Alphys: fair, i guess. still, let me know
2:46 PM - CrazyMLC: it mostly felt bad