V classes dialogue

No. I'm telling you; you add in ult meter carry over, you break the game.
[5:03 PM]
Not sure on weaknesses exactly. Probably when the more important stuff like LMS and team compatibility is done.
[5:03 PM]
We're probably going to make it so getting hit with your weakness gives a bit of ult meter to add some actual depth to the mechanic.

Shmeckie
No. I'm telling you; you add in ult meter carry over, you break the game.

[Campaign Manager] Neon — 05/01/2021
This is probably the first time I've heard someone other than fr3ak say something like that

Shmeckie — 05/01/2021
It also discourages blind counterpicking since you might just end up feeding ult to your opponent if they're good. You can't just pick their weakness and use it as a crutch.

Ehibika — 05/01/2021
What is the fundamental difference between blind counterpicking and thoughtful counterpicking? And why is it bad to counterpick against a good player?

If that's your concern, then weaknesses should not be a consideration whatsoever.

Shmeckie — 05/01/2021
Blind counterpicking is just "me pick Bubble Man cause you use Heat Man Heat Man weak to Bubble Man"
[5:18 PM]
Thoughtful counterpicking would be "This guy is beating me with Dark Man 2, let me pick a class that's good at keeping a distance, or can even fly, to stay out of his reach"
[5:19 PM]
Basically if you're just defaulting to the MM weakness chain to do more damage you gotta factor in that doing so will boost the opponent's ult gain

Ehibika — 05/01/2021
So then again, why even have weaknesses in the first place? This example is pretty much saying that picking a class because he has a damage advantage is bad, and that picking a class because they have advantage for technical reasons is the only appropriate way to counterpick.

It seems like there's no real reason to even have weaknesses if you're going under that attitude, at that point all they really are is a trap for players that are still attempting to use game knowledge to acquire an advantage in gameplay.

Ze Robotico — 05/01/2021
Isn't weaknesses gonna be copywep only?(edited)

Fr3ak — 05/01/2021
It's a fun nod to the source games that the three other major class mods have
[5:53 PM]
Also gives a feeling of satisfaction for players who know their Mega Man history

Ehibika — 05/01/2021
Okay but we're also punishing them by giving their opponent a resource advantage, and we basically just said that choosing a character because they hit a weakness is bad play, it's blind counterpicking,  and it should be something players shouldn't be doing.

It's a seriously mixed message, you want to reward people with mega Man knowledge but we also want to punish them because they are using mega Man knowledge instead knowledge of the opponents kit shortcomings. Also they're stupid for playing that way apparently.(edited)

Fr3ak — 05/01/2021
It's a double edged sword. You hit your opponent harder but on the other hand you're giving your opponent easier access to a powerful attack
[6:02 PM]
If you think you can kill your opponent before he gets the chance to unleash said attack, go for it

Ehibika — 05/01/2021
It's still something we ultimately don't want players to be doing.
[6:13 PM]
Remember, he said this is to discourage players from playing this way. He does not want this to be how people approach playing the game at all.

Shmeckie — 05/01/2021
You are grossly overthinking it
[6:20 PM]
Or have it in your head the ult gain is gonna be this massive chunk
[6:21 PM]
Fr3ak has it right, it's a side effect you have to take into account if you're going to pull out an opponent's weakness to try and take them down
[6:21 PM]
Okay, yeah, you'll do more damage, but you better be able to capitalize on that because you're also getting them their ultimate attack sooner.
[6:22 PM]
It makes the weakness chain an actual risk/reward scenario rather than "fuck you, counterpick"

Ehibika — 05/01/2021
Okay but that's not how you framed it when you first mentioned it. Until I pressed on the matter you pretty much just described the act of going for weakness damage as a crutch, I'm just questioning why even have the crutch in the first place if it's something you don't want players doing.

Shmeckie — 05/01/2021
Because, again, you are overthinking it. And we've already discussed it multiple times before.

---

On break from work, and you didn't really answer my question.

Regardless if you think I'm overthinking it, it's still begs the question of why do you want a the mechanic that you don't really want to have? "We've discussed it" doesn't really tell me anything because I wasn't present in those discussions.

Besides, weaknesses are a largely unpopular mechanic, no version of CBM is ever hosted with them unless by accident. so why add a problematic mechanic and then try to suppress it with a penalty when we can just not add it in the first place since the game works fine without it?

Shmeckie — 05/02/2021
Trying to discern my motivations goes to prove my point that you're overthinking this. This is a Mega Man mod, the very core concept the entire franchise was built on was the rock-paper-scissors mechanic, of course we're going to include it. That is literally the idea that gave birth to this franchise. CBM servers never hosted with it because it was a blind "do more damage" mechanic. This way there's actually a strategy behind it. A tangible risk and reward function. Much like the class movesets themselves, it's adapting something from the Mega Man series into an actual competitive FPS framework.
[12:46 AM]
Either way weaknesses will still be a toggleable function, but now there's an incentive to actually play with it on, as it adds additional strategy to the game.

Ehibika — 05/02/2021
First off, no it doesn't, and what measure is "overthinking" anyways?

Second, just because it was in the franchise doesn't necessarily mean it should be included. Especially when we're dealing with a fundamentally different genre. Even as it is, core does a lot of different stuff with copy weapons that deviate from Canon. heck, an example of where staying true to Cannon creates a worse experience can be seen in a lot of single player campaigns, where due to the way enemies behave in the side scrollers being replicated here, it results in a lot of enemies that are a little more than stop gaps that slow the pace of the game down compared to other pve experiences in a shooter.

I also have my doubts that it would really work all that well, I'll spare you my reasons why because I don't think you care to hear it. Plus it would be toggle able anyways.(edited)

Shmeckie — 05/02/2021
So we don't include the basis of the entire Mega Man franchise because other people were bad it it, then? And yes, you are overthinking it. You're engaging in extensive Theory Fighter while also trying to discern what I'm thinking and what my motivations are.

Ehibika — 05/02/2021
More like we don't include it because it doesn't seem like a meaningful addition to the game, especially if we're making it optional anyways.

And yeah, I do like to engage in extensive design theory, that's kind of a worthwhile thing to do in most creative Fields these days. Inquire on the what and why rather than just settling on "just because"

And breaks over, be back later.

Shmeckie — 05/02/2021
The only two options are not excessive theory crafting or "just because". Theory Fighter is often useless if you try to take it to a certain degree. You need hands-on experience. Otherwise you're just dressing up "maybe"s that don't reflect reality.(edited)