Illithoid and New Celest: A Discussion

SO IT WAS A BRIGHT AND SUNNY FRIDAY MORNING and as I finished up my work for the week without having anything to do over the weekend, I wrote up a Star Council thingy to post. And then I logged in. And it turns out people were already discussing things! It was a meaningful conversation, I think, that happened on the New Celest city aethers between a ton of young and old citizens alike on a sensitive topic. I included part of my post regarding the matter for transparency as well!

~~~~~

CELEST NEWS #4731
Date: 8/27/2021 at 14:42
From: Witness Kennian, Light in Dark Times
To  : Everyone
Subj: Recent Applications

Citizens of the Light,

I am writing to invite discussion on a very serious topic. There have been recent applications received by the Council requesting citizenship. The applications have come from Ilisa d'Vangoff and Sutekh, adopted of n'Lochli.

Since the time of the application, I have attempted to stir conversations with the Council and with other members of the city about our stance on illithoid citizenship, given Ilisa's race. What I am encountering are several citizens that are in favor of allowing Ilisa to join the city. When attempting to approach the conversation with the Council and the Queen over the appropriate aethers, it does not seem to move forward. So I bring it to you, the citizens of the Light, as I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on the matter. I will give you mine as well.

I fully understand that illithoid have always been banned from the city. Those who come from the Portal are given time to make adjustments in order to lead a happy life in the Light. However, just because a thing has always been done one way does not mean it always should continue to be done that way. Before Illith, the soulless couldn't splinter. The fact that it happened leaves open the possibility that the soulless shards can, in fact, have a soul. If there's even the slightest possibility then it is our responsibility to make every attempt in saving those souls instead of abandoning them. We offer her the opportunity to change who she is by reincarnating, acknowledging that we know she can 'grow a soul' in this endeavour. Why is it so challenging to believe that through love and teaching and mercy the same thing can happen? What harm does it do to make the attempt?

As a follower of the Light, it is my duty to find those in need and assist them in the betterment of their lives. What honour is there in turning someone away strictly because of their race. Ilisa has made it clear in her application letter that she does not expect to be given the same opportunities as full citizens. She is willing to live under harsh restrictions just to be a part of our great nation. If that does not demonstrate dedication, then what does?

Are we not meant to take those who walk in darkness and bring them to a better place?

It is hard for me to believe that Ilisa's presence in the city poses any great threat but, if we take this chance and she somehow manages to cause chaos, I find it even harder to believe that the Light cannot triumph over one small illithoid. The only way we continue to improve the world around us, is by giving it the opportunity to improve and that is what we are faced with in this moment.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

Witness Kennian
Penned by my hand on the 12th of Roarkian, in the year 597 CE.

<-- THREE DAYS LATER (/s idk how many days, not long, I logged in just before the conversation started)

(Celest): Talkan says, "Kennian, are you proposing a change to the laws to allow Illithoids?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I'm proposing a conversation about it, yes."
(Celest): Aison says, "She can change race if she is serious in her application."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Some insight into what physical harm can come from it would be helpful I think."
(Celest): Talkan says, "What reasons do you think the law exists for, as it currently stands?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I have asked, actually, Father Talkan about the reasons for it and all I've been told is because "they're soulless"."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Which is why I opened the conversation. I really would love to understand it further than that."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Hrm, well a few things come to mind."

<-- I disappeared for 30 seconds to post to star council newsy
THE STAR COUNCIL NEWS #2866
Date: 8/27/2021 at 16:18
From: Herald Gurashi, The Heart's Friend
To  : Everyone
Subj: Recent Star Council Businesses

Dearest Star Councils,

Hello. It is me, Herald Gurashi! I realize it is sometimes difficult for most of us to meet at the same times and be awake to say hi to one another, but I know there are a few differently issues that have been raised lately that I would like to address, especially with the year 597 coming to a close.

Regarding Sutekh's application to Celest:
I am unfortunately unable to comment on Sutekh's applications, as I have chosen to not regard this person's existence. I leave the decisions in your capable hands.

Regarding Ilisa's application to Celest:
As for Ilisa's applications, I am very reluctant to allow it as it stands. New Celest was founded on the principles of opposing the Taint and the Soulless, and regardless of not the words she says or how she behaves, being an Illithoid is to proudly be a shard of Illith, the Leviathan, a Soulless Goddess. Our Covenant states that Illithoid and Viscanti who choose to moves to our wonderful home MUST reincarnate and will have four whole years to do so, and I am not comfortable changing a centuries old law based on the Precepts of Methrenton we are all required to learn from, to live by, and to follow. I know there are citizens who are in favor of giving Miss Ilisa this chance, but not everybody is in agreement, nor are they as vocal about it, for I have already received private oppositions following Minister Kennian's latest post. I do not have any kindnesses in my hearts for the shards of Illith, or any piece of any Soulless. IF she is willing to agree to terms expressed in our Covenant and reincarnate within the four year time limits, THEN I will gives my supports. Otherwise, I am opposed.

<bunch of other private Star Council things>

Stay goodly and kind, and go in Love and the Light in all things,
Gurashi
Penned by my hand on the 14th of Roarkian, in the year 597 CE.

<-- I wonder what I missed :')
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "First and foremost is that the Light is antithetical to the Taint and the Soulless. They are incompatible. The Light does not teach tolerance of either, and I believe that changing laws to allow either into our city as citizens is to go against the lessons of Lady Raziela, Lord Methrenton, and Lord Japhiel."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Yes, I've read as much. What I'm seeking is the 'why' versus the fact."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "The Illithoid are a very unique race in that they possess Shards of the Soulless. We combat the Soulless. We have lost gods to the Soulless. We do not, and never will, support those who embrace that part of themselves."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "To consider such, regardless of the content of their character, is blaspheme."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "We, in the Light, embrace the soul."
(Celest): Alarin (from the Aetherways) says, "Even if they, individually, have done no wrong themselves towards the Light or towards Creation?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I see. So the illithoid are simply hopeless cases then."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "Being Soulless is doing wrong to the Light. Their mere existence is an assault to us."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "A shame that we don't think the Light can have the power to reform the hopeless cases."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "In this situation, if the illithoid Ilsa wishes to repent, she may do so by reincarnation first."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "It is not unheard of for the city to the front credits as a means to help members come into the Light."
(Celest): Alarin (from the Aetherways) says, "So the only recourse is reincarnation."
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "Indeed."
(Celest): You say, "Reincarnation within four years, yes."
(Celest): Alarin (from the Aetherways) says, "Even though, in the past, we have allowed viscanti to live within the city, with restrictions placed upon them."
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "Along with a ritual ceremony, as Gurashi states."
(Celest): You say, "Baptisms!"
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "Viscanti are tainted, and not to the same caliber as Illithoid. There is yet hope for a viscanti."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Ah. That's where I was wrong then. I believed the Light sought to convert all cases, not just the easy or moderately easy ones."
(Celest): Alarin (from the Aetherways) says, "And... for some reason, this same cleansing ritual is not afforded to the illithoid? Trust when I say this, I am not attempting to be argumentative."
(Celest): You say, "A Viscanti may yet cleanse themselves of the Taints and return to the beings that was a-fore they were tainted. A Soulless shards cannot stop being a Soulless shards."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "Your hostility is interesting, Kennian."
(Celest): Alarin (from the Aetherways) says, "I just wish to understand where the thinking process is headed."
(Celest): Misericorde says, "The viscanti are not inherently Soulless as the illithoid are, Alarin. I believe that is where the discrepancy lies."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I'm not being hostile, actually. That was a true statement."
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "Have you seen Lady Raziela convert the tainted before, Kennian? I have, with my own eyes. It's quite violent."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I was mistaken in that belief."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "You obviously know I have not."
(Celest): You say, "I am sorry if this conversations is raising tempers. It is goodly to clarify the distinctions between the two... because there IS one, yes."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I'm glad you have."
(Celest): Alarin (from the Aetherways) says, "I too have witnessed that. I have also been on the other end of that fight and that is the main reason I turned towards the Light in the end."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "The way I see it, the 'easy way out' would be to let any illithoid or viscanti to join. The hard part is making them understand that New Celest is not a haven for just anyone, and we have laws and standards that we have built from the Supernals, the Tide Lords, our Gods, and even Queen Mumhatuti."
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "If a soulless is not willing to convert - FULLY convert - then they are not actually repentant or making the effort to become a citizen."
(Celest): You say, "And understanding helps bring us to the rightest decisions, ultimately, hopefully."
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "Well said, dear wife."
(Celest): Alarin (from the Aetherways) says, "I... see. Excuse me a moment."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "My youth and lack of experience is obvious. I'm sorry I've not seen the things you all have but that is not something I can help."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "I do not think I would want to be at the point of the Even Bladed should She see an illithoid roaming freely in Her city, though..."
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "In any case, I appreciate you bringing up the topic, Kennian. It's clearly something that has been forgotten in times of relative peace."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "We understand that, Kennian. Do not mistake our sharing of our history as a blight on you. We have missed much in the recent years that is natural for you."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "The phrasing I think is what makes it hostile. You don't have to ask if I was there when you know it didn't happen within the last three years."
(Celest): Alarin says, "New news post."

CELEST NEWS #4732
Date: 8/27/2021 at 16:27
From: Lord Marshal Alarin Ka'liati, Anointed of Argent Light
To  : Everyone
Subj: Ilisa and the Illithoids

Hail, Resurgence of the Light!

Before I say what has been on my mind, let me clarify a few things. No, I will not now nor will I ever side with the Soulless or the Taint which were the doing of one of the Heralds of Magnora. I have sided with the latter for a short time in my youth and I assure you... never again. Secondly, these are my opinions only and I have kept them quiet until now, after learning of a new development involving one who has applied to be a citizen here.

That being said...

I will admit, what I am hearing is troublesome to me and I will explain why. I am fully aware that illithoids have been banned from within New Celest's walls from long before most of us were even born. That is not my issue. My issue involves this: Could someone explain to me why the illithoids are still currently banned as citizens? Please do not insult my intelligence and say "Because they are a threat to the Light". The Heralds of Magnora are indeed a threat to all of Creation, not just the Light.

However...

We are talking about the splintered remains of one of the Heralds. Blazes, the half of that Herald that splintered. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but it's beginning to sound like guilt is already assumed based on the simple fact of one's race. Let's take away the fact that aye, they are splintered from one of the Soulless and look at them individually, shall we? Not at the race as a whole, but the person born of that race.

Can one of you tell me with sheer certainty why Ilisa would not be allowed part of New Celest as a citizen? Blast, history has shown that we have welcomed viscanti (a race that was directly borne through, and embraced by, the Taint) amidst our number, with certain stipulations and restrictions placed upon them. Why do we not allow those same rules to apply to one of the illithoid? Aside from whom they are the splintered remains of, is there really a legitimate reason to keep those of that particular race out still?

To drive the point home... kephera, an anathema to the City of Magnagora, were allowed into the city, restrictions and rules placed upon them that are far harsher than those we placed on the viscanti. In the past, the kephera were outright banned from the city until relatively recently. Do you have any idea what that says to me?

Magnagora is more lenient than we are at this point. Does that sound wrong to anyone else?

It should.

Lord Japhiel teaches us to seek wisdom and understanding when casting judgment on others while Lady Raziela teaches to act with compassion, especially to those who are seeking the Light. Aye, I have been wrong in the past and readily admit that I am far from perfect. However, I qm still of a mind that all who seek the Light should be allowed that one chance. That goes for those of any race as well, rules and restrictions placed considered of course.

May the Light forever guide your journey forward, Resurgence.

In service,
Alarin Ka'liati
Lor Marshal of the Rising Dawn
Anointed of Argent Light.
Penned by my hand on the 14th of Roarkian, in the year 597 CE.

(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "But thank you for reminding me of my place."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "I might recommend Events post 94... that's where most of it began."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "Some of it."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "And ignore Father Talkan, he's better with a weapon than his mouth, though he means well."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "It's hard to ignore figures you respect."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "But I will try."
(Celest): Alarin says, "...I have read the entire Events newsboard, post by post. I am still not understanding where illithoids as individuals are condemned before they even learn of the Light."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "Feeding Father Talkan's ego is only allowed between evening and midnight."
(Celest): Talkan (from the Aetherways) says, "To be clear, I have no way of knowing if you've seen Lady Raziela under attack since I've awoken. It wasn't a sarcastic question."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Of course it wasn't."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I understand now."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "Alarin, maybe you should venture to see the Hive Queen Neferti?"
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "She may be able to impart the wisdom you are seeking."
(Celest): Alarin says, "...Lady Raziela under attack is burned to my memory for all eternity, thank you."
(Celest): Alarin says, "I will seek her out. Thank you kindly."
(Celest): You say, "Sorry, belatedly, distractedly, but - do not think it is a badly thing to want to do something for kindnesses or betterments on another's behalf! It was a goodly discussions to have, an important distinctions to makes."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "There is one more figurehead I believe you could search for, though I can't remember. I think he was referred to as The White Flame - I do believe he resides in the hives as well."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "Well said, Gurashi."
~~~~~~~
like 5 minutes later
~~~~~~~
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "...Well, I apparently missed a bit of a discussion."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "So it would seem."
(Celest): Aison (from the Aetherways) says, "It was amicable."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "I'm not sure lecturing someone because of their age is amicable, but at least it wasn't out-right rude."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "I just want to say, I've been looking at both sides of this, as I've been keeping in mind the tenets of the Supernals and of a divine I quite adore. But I feel like we are not posing an answer to the question of what keeps someone like Ilisa trully out. Free will would show that they have been trying to change, and wish to come to us to learn more."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "I adore Ilisa immensely, to be honest. I'd want them to join us, and then, if its determined that she may want to change her shard, to be that of not ilithoid, it shouldn't be us that forces her...it should be us that guides her into the light. That's presuming there's somehting inherently wrong with that shard, which I'm not sold on either."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "That also leads me to a question I've had for ages at this point, what happens with a changeling's soul? If I become ilithoid, do I become evil?"
~~~~~~~
like 5-10 minutes later
~~~~~~~
(Celest): Faragan (from the Prime Material Plane) says, "Greetings people of the light."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Greetings!"
(Celest): Elysian says, "Welcome to the conversation maybe!"
(Celest): Faragan says, "And what conversation is that?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I raised a conversation trying to better understand the concept of illithoid citizenship in the city. It was met with some responses, as hoped."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "Then I killed the conversation I fear...or it was buried, I unburied it, then killed it."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "The latter, Elysian."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "Huh, need to work on my resurrection powers abit."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Aim for the chest.. that's my best guess."
(Celest): Faragan says, "Illithoid are splintered from a soulless thus your oaths to the light if you allow this your oaths to the light you didnt' understand we opose the taint and the soulless. That's what we do. our ansesters allowed it intothe world and thus we are tasked with working against it. to allow citizens of the viscanti or illithoid within celest would be a breaking of those oaths."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "We've let in Viscanti folks right?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Yes. While there are laws that regulate them, they are permitted to become citizens."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "So that conflicts already."
(Celest): Falaine says, "From my understanding, you can cleanse Taint in the Light... but not an illithoid. Not without nothing being left."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Again, I'm showing my novicehood here.. but has anyone tried?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "They are capable of thought and free will. Are we going to stand here, as the chosen of the Light, and condemn someone for manner of their birth?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Have we of the Light ever tried to convert an illithoid without making them change who they are?"
(Celest): You say, "They are uphelds to samely laws as the illithoids and are given four years to choose an acceptable shards to reincarnate into. They are also required to undergo a Baptisms to cleanse thems, yes yes."
(Celest): Falaine says, "So are the Soulless. Unless you think that they were automatons who hunted down and slaughtered us all those ages..."
(Celest): Tridemon says, "The law against Viscanti- Methrenton X- specifically references the possibility of viscanti becoming citizens. The law against Illithoids- Methrenton XI- specifically forbids ANY Illithoids to be citizened."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "You do realize that not only does Magnagora allow in the races they claim to hate, but are even now working to change their laws to curb such racism?"
(Celest): Aison says, "We are NOT Magnagora."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "So we, as the City of Light, are going to cling to archaic practices while the supposed City of Evil does not?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "Sometimes, leniency and complacency are their own evil. That's not a good parallel."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "From a morality standpoint, they are taking the higher ground when it comes to this."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "No we are not, we are supposed to stand for something better."
(Celest): You say, "Illithoid are shards of Illith, the Soulless. Viscanti are Tainted of other races. It is ..."
(Celest): Aison says, "They are tainted, and with it their brains and desires are twisted. They don't do things for the greater good, they do things for themselves."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Who let in the Soulless? Who spread the touch of Kethuru through the Basin?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Our Ancestors did!"
(Celest): Aison says, "That is not a high ground."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "And you are going to stand here on some high ground?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "We are supposed to fix things, not sweep them under the rug."
(Celest): You say, "And so we are here to clean up the messes our ancestors made, yes."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "If someone actively seeks the Light, you will deny them?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "That is your way of fixing things?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "The Light is here for some?"
(Celest): Tridemon says, "As the law is written, it is forbidden. Petition the Star Council to change the law if you wish, but until you do, That. Is. The. Law."
(Celest): Aison says, "If they truly mean to seek the light they will shed their tainted form. It is simple."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Oh dear... catching up on news, I see this is talking about Ilisa. Do they not already have other forms? I have seen them. What is the hangup on using one of those? It seems like another case of 'I was kicked out and Celest takes anyone', in truth."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "Aison, you do not know me really all that well, correct?"
(Celest): You say, "We are not sweeping anything under a rugs by making the reasonable requests to respect that accepting Illithoid is accepting ties to Illith, and New Celest is meant to be a goodly Beacons against the Soulless."
(Celest): Tridemon says, "It is very specific. There are no loopholes in the language. No shard of Soulless will be allowed citizenship in New Celest."
(Celest): Tridemon says, "There are provisions for Viscanti. No such provisions exist for Illithoid because they are completely and utterly forbidden."
(Celest): Faragan says, "Second class citizens magnagora as thus the reason for sutor being kicked out. You have an equil voice , rites and responsabilities in the light but because of what we fight v viscanti and illithoid are not a part of that. for obvious reasons. as gur said the viscanti have to reincarnate. I don't recall that any viscanti citizen spent much time in that body because of that if a citizen of the light. you all seem to want to tthrow away the light and be open to everyone. if you want that we should be gaudiguch with there one law. Are we the light are arent' we?"
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "Falaine, I can assure you, Ilisa's true form is ilithoid, not illusions, she wasn't kicked out from Magnagora, she left with Sutekh, and wishes to join Celest because of a wish to seek the light, not because "They take anyone"."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I don't know that anyone is arguing that it's not a law. The discussion is around whether or not it should continue to be one."
(Celest): Aison says, "Then she needs to reincarnate."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Who are you to say such a thing?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "But... if they wish to seek the Light.. why not abandon their tie to a Soulless?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "I am baffleld."
(Celest): Aison says, "You wish to ask who I am to say such a thing?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "I believe I did."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "Because, just like I have pride as a trill, they have pride as a ilithoid, You get demanded to change your form, and...well, you resist, especially if you feel that, that...racisim or speciesism is wrong, you dig down."
(Celest): Avaris says, "Then their conviction towards joining the Light is weak."
(Celest): Aison says, "I served as the Queen of New Celest longer than you've been alive. I served as the Ecclesiarch of the Celestines Guild for four times the amount of your life span. I was the Right Hand of the Exalted Lord. I was around when the Undervault was discovered and I saw first hand what the Illithoid did to the Kephera Hives. So, please, question my conviction and my understanding of the Light."
(Celest): You say, "If she is willing to reincarnate then I am willing to support her applications to the City. But I will not support the Soulless in any capacities, especially not in an age where reincarnation is wholly achievables."
(Celest): Alarin says, "According to whose judgment are they considered weak?"
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "One has to remember, there is a...soul, or a conscious being there. The thing is Gurashi, we make all the demands. I think if we trully wanted others to join, we would make provisions, at least akin to that of the viscantis."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "That is quite an impressive resume to be sure, and I am honestly impressed with such an amount of history. That being said, your actions are just that, the past. You who have been away from the Basin for as long as you have can not speak on current events. Nor can you judge the way the world is now based on what it was during your tenure as Queen."
(Celest): Faragan says, "Htey're splintered fro a soulless. THEY DO NOT HAVE A SOUL!"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Do not think for a moment that my convictions are any less strong or sincere because I am younger."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Soulless can not shard."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "That is a fact."
(Celest): Falaine says, "No less strong. But.. perhaps not as researched or learned."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "So then how do you -know- that Illithoid have no soul."
(Celest): Alarin says, "Then explain how Illith was able to."
(Celest): Elysian (from the Aetherways) says, "Faragan, we emerge from the portal as human before we find ourselves, what becomes of the soul then? Or if I were to shift forms to Ilthoid as I am a changeling myself. What happens to my soul then?"
(Celest): Tridemon says, "... are... are you denying that Illithoids are descended from Illith?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I think the argument is more that if Illith was truly soulless in the same way as the others they would not have been able to splinter."
(Celest): Aison says, "You question me, a Chosen One of the Light. It's disrespectful, when I am telling you, point blank, there is no acceptable way to measure an illithoid in the Light. They are shards of the Soulless. Seek out the Hive Queen if you truly cannot comprehend what that means. Perhaps pay a visit to your Supernals."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "I do question you, because I will not blindly follow anyone or anything. I have thoughts and free will, and I will stand for what I believe to be right, and question what I feel is not."
(Celest): Avaris says, "Are you questioning if Illith was a Soulless?"
(Celest): Aison says, "Then listen when I tell you that you need to understand what it is New Celest stands for."
(Celest): Aison says, "We are not nice, we are not tolerant."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Elysian. We -do not- just want anyone to join. We want followers and upholders of the Light, willing to use it to fight for justice and protect those who cannot."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Not just tenants."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Is that so? Then explain to me our alliance with GLomdoring?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "I've told you before that I'm against it."
(Celest): Falaine says, "And they are not in our city. You are diverting from the argument, again."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "That was directed towards Duchess Aison."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "We are not nice, we are not tolerant. Unless it suits us."
(Celest): Tridemon says, "Why do you keep deflecting into other subjects?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Or so it seems?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "I do hope our alliance with Glomdoring is examined, too, yes."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Because you apply your reasoning situationally."
(Celest): You say, "I-Illith did ... such terrible things .... even so recently, finding out what horrors She did to the Lady of Lagoons while She was in such a helpless position. The reveal of the Leviathan's Cradle .... I cannot understand why someone would want to be so proudly linked to such a Being in the first place."
(Celest): Aison says, "You should have been here when the treaty began. Had I been awake for the majority of it, New Celest would stand alone."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Huh, I joined the City because I wanted to heal, to get closer to the Lady Lantra, and to show light and warmth to others. Should I venture on?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Seems we're keeping an alliance the majority disagree with, then."
(Celest): Aison says, "But I digress. You must understand we cannot simply take Lady Raziela's compassion and apply it to every facet. Every blade needs an edge."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Gurashi, do you have a parent you are not fond of, that has commited some...atrocities in the past?" <-- DON'T THINK I DIDN'T SEE THIS BOI
(Celest): Elysian says, "Lady Aison, is the blade the first option?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "I do not understand why we are making our decisions about individuals based on actions they are not in control of. These are people seeking a path to serve the Light and we are rejecting them on fear rooted from elsewhere."
(Celest): Aison says, "I will not tolerate an illithoid roaming my city after all we have fought for. In that situation - the best option. End their misery."
(Celest): Tridemon says, "There is room for discussion on many things, and this is not one of them. The law as it is written forbids it. To allow it would require a change in the covenant. Get that done and you'll have room to make your argument."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Lilalue, wouldn't you agree that reincarnation is in one's control?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "That's not in keeping with my values. If we are to apply our blade's edge, then let it be to welcome them in and help support them against outside forces that would abuse and override will."
(Celest): Falaine says, "We are rejecting a piece of the Soulless. A piece who -willingly wishes to stay- so."
(Celest): Talkan says, "And, speaking for myself and many who wrote the original law, it was not created out of fear."
(Celest): Falaine says, "If they had no choice? Then maybe."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Well said, Falaine."
(Celest): Aison says, "Certainly not out of fear. Necessity."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "What harm has this individual done to us in seeking to come to and serve the Light?"
(Celest): Aison says, "They are anatheme in their very existence, that is the harm."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Again, we're not arguing that it's not a law now. The discussion is around whether or not it should be. You say to make a change to the covenant and then we'll talk but.. we're talking now. How else do we continue to examine the application of our beliefs to today's world and not the world of centuries past?"
(Celest): Elysian says, "And we are talking of centuries ago."
(Celest): Avaris says, "The law does not need to change. Illithoid are aberrations that should be purged from the face of the First World. That is the end of it."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "And an actual person, not a theoretical danger."
(Celest): Aison says, "Something happened centuries ago, so we should just forget about it?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "No, but you should temper your judgement on current circumstances."
(Celest): Aison says, "There is no tempering judgment on shards of the soulless, or the tainted."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Furthermore, there has been no change in the makeup of illithoids since their introduction to the basin. The law hasn't doesn't need to change because they have not changed."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Already. Already, they are causing strife and discord in the city, by not wishing to abide by its laws. Why should we accept someone who does not respect the laws of the place they wish to live?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "The Light hasn't grown in centuries? In strength or understanding or ability?"
(Celest): Elysian says, "Time flows ever onward does it not? Change is permanent, one needs tokeep this in mind. Falaine, they have no control in my feelings nor the others who support them."
(Celest): Talkan says, "The Supernals teachings have not changed."
(Celest): Falaine says, "And yet, they applied knowing our laws. And refuses a change."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "No, the discord is those of us who disagree with the assessment that an individual should be held to account for actions of others in perpetuity, despite a clear desire to strive for better."
(Celest): Aison says, "All right, let me pose this question."
(Celest): Aison says, "What exactly has this person done to atone, or demonstrate a strive for better?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "What would be a task suitable to convince those reluctant to accept them?"
(Celest): Talkan says, "Should we therefore change any law that a citizen - or even prospective citizen - does not wish to abide by in the future, because they demonstrate with their words that they desire to do better?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "That's a reasonable question but it is unfair to present without an attainable goal."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Cutting their tie to Illith."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Willingly left the city of Magnagora, remained homeless in an attempt to persue a better life here. Willingly discussed things over with such elders as Alarin."
(Celest): Faragan says, "Reincarnation."
(Celest): Aison says, "No, do not dodge my question. What has this person done?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "We should at least be willing to examine said laws when the opportunity arises, yes."
(Celest): Falaine says, "They left their city for a partner, not for a desire to follow the Light."
(Celest): Aison says, "Being homeless doesn't mean they have sacrificed anything. Does anyone openly hunt them? Have they had to face any trial besides losing the ability to speak on a city aether?"
(Celest): Elysian says, "Oh, Falaine, I've not seen you around Ilisa when I've been around her most of my waking the last few years."
(Celest): Falaine says, "What has that to do with anything except your bias?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "Whose bias?"
(Celest): Aison says, "My bias against... a soulless worm?"
(Celest): You say, "I assumed she was responding to Elysian."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Elysian's, in favor of Ilisa, yes."
(Celest): Tridemon says, "Reincarnation would indeed work perfectly as a sign of atonement and a desire to join with the Light, to follow the laws and teachings that have been in place for centuries."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "As opposed to your bias against an individual you do not know, whose motivations you have not directly inquired about?"
(Celest): Aison says, "Reincarnation would be a good step forward."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Speaking as someone who speaks with her, knows her, I believe I know more of them than many do."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Yes, as opposed to that. I am looking at facts, objectively."
(Celest): Aison says, "Have you considered the possibility that she seeks to deceive you, and to encourage dissent amongst our ranks?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "No, you are not."
(Celest): Aison says, "Quite a popular tactic, do you remember, Father Talkan?"

<--- THEN THIS DUMMY D/C'd

(Celest): Elysian says, "More the identity, than anything else, she doesn't see Ililith in herself, only her as "Ilisa"."
(Celest): Avaris says, "Then you need to reevaluate your morals, and how they align with the Light. The illithoid is unworthy of sympathy or compassion until she has a soul."
(Celest): Falaine says, "I have a moral objection to the friends and family of someone anathema to our very purpose trying to guilt the city into accepting them, truthfully."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Also. Not seeing a problem in yourself does not mean that problem is not present."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Realistically that statement could be made either way though."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "Who is guilting?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "Is that question rhetorical? Or should I give a list?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "I am hearing no arguments save for 'I like them, so they should be allowed to come'."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Asking us to examine our beliefs and how we apply our laws to them isn't 'guilting'.. it was a genuine concern about an issue."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "My argument had nothing to do with liking her."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "Indeed."
(Celest): Falaine says, "So you say. But when multitudinous reasons are given by people who have -lived- the cause for this ban... you ignore them, and deflect."
(Celest): Talkan says, "If I may, it seems to me that the only argument for allowing Illithoid or Viscanti into the city is because it'd be "nice" to do so, and that the law is very old."
(Celest): Talkan says, "And, frankly, that is no reason at all."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "One reason. It's not about niceness."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "That.. is not the crux of my argument no. Perhaps I should have made my post clearer."
(Celest): Elysian says, "It's about being the ones to open the door, to save someone from it through kindness, rather than to demand their death."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "The crux of my argument is that I believe the Light is strong enough to convert even the hopeless cases if given the chance."
(Celest): Talkan says, "But wouldn't you agree that we DO have a door open already, with wise, fair, and just rules for one to enter?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "And if we never take the chance to save people then why are we here?"
(Celest): Lilalue says, "That is the core of the disagreement, Talkan."
(Celest): Aison says, "We do not require only kindness to make changes. There are four other Supernals."
(Celest): Avaris says, "They have been presented with the opportunity to save themselves. Via reincarnation."
(Celest): Aison says, "Our job has never been to save anyone, Kennian. Our job has to be eradicate the Taint."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Yes. I understand we can ask her to change to make herself easier to save so that we don't have to try so hard. That's not what I'm talking about."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Or is the act of reincarnation to arduous for one who wishes to follow the Light to follow? And if so, if reincarnation alone is too burdensome, how would the same person actually bear the yoke of the Supernals teachings?"
(Celest): Aison says, "People can only save themselves, if they are dedicated and willing."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I'm talking about looking at the situation, as is, and saying -we- can fix it."
(Celest): Avaris says, "It is not a matter of easy. You cannot save a Soulless spawn."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "We're clearly not willing to try."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Demanding their death? Do you mean their temporary death? Just as deaths in conflict are temporary? It is a -small- sacrifice. If they are not willing to change their physical identitiy, their connection to a Being that -even now- seeks to consume the world... how are we to believe they will change their philosophical and spiritual identity?"
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Well at least we're starting to agree that their physical identity is separate from their philosophical and spiritual one!"
(Celest): Elysian says, "Mmm, I prefer crystal blue waters versus blood red ones. Every person is capable of evil, we saw that with those who tried to help the insane goddess destroy the seals...not all of them were ilithoids, or were their souls gone?"
(Celest): Talkan says, "Precisely, Falaine. I understand the desire to question our laws - that is a noble thing, when done with wisdom and a clear mind. But we *do* have a process for allowing Viscanti and Illithoid into this city, part of which requires their reincarnation, which is but ONE physical expression of their repentance."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "So if tomorrow the Supernals stated that Trill, or Merian, or Kephera were a tainted race. Would your fervor be as strong against them?"
(Celest): Falaine says, "That is a straw argument, and disingenuous."
(Celest): Aison says, "Saint Tresalyne is turning in their grave, my goodness."
(Celest): Tridemon says, "In that case I would consult with Lady Lantra to see if the Supernals had become seriously ill."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "No more so than what I have listened to thus far. You say that people only wish the law to change to be 'nice' or 'because it's old'. Yet all I hear fired back is, 'The law exists. If you don't like it change it.""
(Celest): Talkan says, "Interesting. I've heard many people cite *many* reasons for why the law exists."
(Celest): Talkan says, "But I've yet to hear anyone suggest a reason why, under the strictures of the Light, it should be removed other than it'd be the "nice" thing."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Yes. Reasons that existed centuries ago that have not been verified to even exist presently. I do not recall reading in any history books that the Illithoid surged across the Basin like a wave of destruction. Or that the Viscanti race by itself sought to usurp or destroy the Light."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I see.. I'm not sure how else I can point out that my argument has nothing to do with being nice."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "Attributions of an entire race capable of independent thought despite bondage to an evil not of their own doing, judgment of an individual based on actions they took no role in. Personal trauma unrelated to this individual."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I am sorry you keep taking it that way. I'm not sure how to be more clear when I state that I think the Light is stronger than we give it credit for."
(Celest): Aison says, "We do not simply IGNORE history, as Lord Japhiel teaches us. What happened centuries ago is that we PREVENTED the Illithoid from surging across the Basin like a wave of destruction."
(Celest): Elysian says, "I'm going to be quiet for a moment so Lady Kennian can voice her question and that it can receive a clear answer."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "My point is that, instead of asking them to reincarnate... to save themselves without our help, why we aren't willing to -try- to help save them as they are. If it doesn't work then we've lost nothing. If we aren't willing to try then we are failing our duty to the Light."
(Celest): Falaine says, "Reincarnation alone is not saving themself without help. It's taking the first step -toward- help."
(Celest): Avaris says, "The Light is strong enough to illuminate what is abhorrent. To allow an unrepentant shard of a Soulless to live freely among us would stand against everything the Light is. You appear to have an incorrect view of what your duty to the Light is."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "The proposal was never that she live freely."
(Celest): Avaris says, "To live at all within it, without intent to reincarnate, then."
(Celest): Aison says, "We accept an illithoid in our midsts, we have lost. We have become misguided and have decided that being nice, and tolerant, is more important than performing our duties to the basin. Eradicating the taint and putting those soulless bastachs into the ground once and for all."
The Mantle of Starlight flows gently against your form, twinkling stars shifting across its surface as the starry infinity continues its eternal motion.
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "And I'm wrong in understanding that my duty to the Light is to have faith in its power and use it to bring good to the world?"
(Celest): Aison says, "That is only part of it."
(Celest): Falaine says, "In a way? Yes."
(Celest): Talkan says, "I'd say that belief stems from a misunderstanding of the Light and the teachings of the Supernals. I can't *imagine* how Lady Terentia would react if a creature of Ketheru who slew Meridian was allowed to walk in the presence of one of her shrines."
(Celest): Avaris says, "Your warping of its message is wrong, yes."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I see. Then you all must be right. I obviously don't understand the Light."
(Celest): Avaris says, "That is clear."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Yes... as I just repeated. Thank you for reiterating."
(Celest): Avaris says, "You are most welcome."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Avaris, don't be an arse."
(Celest): Aison says, "Kennian, you are stronger than self-pitying. You must learn and seek guidance, as Lord Japhiel teaches us."
(Celest): Talkan says, "To be fair, the city's priesthood has been gutted in the last few centuries and there haven't been many sermons on the teachings of the Supernals, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't cast blame on anyone other than myself for that failing."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I am not self-pitying at all. It seems like my tone is generally misjudged over aethers. I do that as well when I hear others. I am being genuine, Duchess Aison."
(Celest): Aison says, "Protect your homeland, as Lady Shakiniel bids. Seek our your enemies and crush them as Lord Methrenton encourages. Love them for what they can be, as Lady Raziela devotes."
(Celest): You say, "Please remember to be goodly and kindly to one another, and to yourselves. This is a goodly learning opportunity and should remain a civil discussions ultimately. Aethers make tones easy to misjudge."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "I truthfully do misunderstand the Light if this it is as you all describe it."
(Celest): Talkan says, "I often forget that my centuries of studying at their feet has not been enjoyed by many others, and for that I must admit failure."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "I share your vision, Kennian."
(Celest): Elysian says, "As do I Kennian, I believe in the love, the hope of the light, versus the destruction."
(Celest): Talkan says, "The destruction of the Taint is a mercy."
(Celest): Talkan says, "It's the kindest thing we can do for the tainted who will not leave their tainted coil behind."
(Celest): You say, "The Light is Compassionate, but it is also Wise. And it is unwise to make exceptions for the Soulless."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Violence, is not the primary aspect, and should only be used when there's no other path."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "The destruction of a living and breathing person who has no idea why you are doing what you are doing is not a kind thing. It is not a mercy."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "Unfortunately wisdom is fairly subjective."
(Celest): Talkan says, "That is not the teachings of Lord Methrenton, who fights proactively against the Taint."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "That is a justification made by people who are doing as they wish."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "We all think our statements are wise. I don't think anyone here is arguing under the assumption we're wrong."
(Celest): Avaris says, "It is when their existence is an aberration against Life."
(Celest): Lilalue says, "Why, Gurashi, do you believe that to be so? Based on this person we are denying, not the histories. What potential do you fear?"
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "Avaris. Your bias is very visible."
(Celest): Elysian says, "But it is the teaching of Lady Raziela no? Destroy when you must, but love first."
(Celest): Avaris says, "As it should be."
(Celest): Aison says, "That bias is very justified."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Soterasiel, the moment after death is a temporary relief, so profound that it is a blessing."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Killing the Tainted is the embodiment of Lady Raziela's teachings."
(Celest): Elysian says, "As someone who dies a fair bit...it's not so great?"
<-- short tells conversation with Lilalue on the matter! <3
(Celest): Talkan says, "It is literally the physical act of love for the tainted."
(Celest): Talkan says, "Of course not, but your mortal form is not enveloped in taint."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Moreso than leading them down a pure path?"
(Celest): Talkan says, "Showing them an existence without being tied to the taint, even for a moment, is the first step in the journey of a pure path."
(Celest): Aison says, "We know it isn't great - that's how we use it as a tool to convince the tainted to release themselves of that form."
(Celest): Elysian says, "It's hard to listen and change your mind...when you have a dagger in your brain."
(Celest): Talkan says, "It allows them to understand that there are other options that they were not aware of. It shows them the power of the Light."
(Celest): Soterasiel says, "I'm sorry. I fail to see how killing someone who has no idea of what is going on will suddenly alert them to the presence of the Light and the 'kindness' we are bestowing upon them."
(Celest): Elysian says, "Seems to have them fear it, than adore it."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "It is very obvious that we are at an impasse."
(Celest): Talkan says, "It's nearly impossible for one who is not tainted or has not studied exclusively the word of Lady Raziela to understand how a temporary separation from the taint can be true kindness."
(Celest): You say, "As have stated ... ah, when the conversation began a few days ago, I question the sincerity of an individuals so willing to embrace being tied to the Leviathans, while requesting citizenships here, the City that is the bastions against Soulless and Tainted. Belatedly, my apologies, is in response to you, miss Lilalue. I am afraid I cannot comment any further on the subjects at this time, unfortunately."
(Celest): Talkan says, "For us, death is pain. But for the tainted, the moment after death - where their coil is free for just a moment - is bliss."
(Celest): You say, "Perhaps this is one of those things where it would be, ah, better use perhaps if it were something to be voted on, since many words are happening, yes..."
(Celest): Kennian (from the Astral Plane) says, "We can bicker back and forth until the end of time if we'd like but.. I will remove myself from the conversation for the moment."
(Celest): Talkan says, "This is the word of Lady Raziela, blessed be her name and her word."

<-- and then the conversation died long enough for me to clean this heckin log, thanks folks.