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  1. [11:57] <Jenova> have you guys read
  2. [11:57] <Jenova> your own thread
  3. [11:57] <Jenova> MiFU|Work
  4. [11:57] <Jenova> https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7212
  5. [11:57] <Jenova> lmao
  6. [11:57] <LinkBot> [ YAY DRAMA - New rules - Zandronum ]
  7. [11:57] <Jenova> i didnt even notice this
  8. [11:58] <Jenova> i need to catch up on this actually
  9. [11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> go 4 it
  10. [11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> that was kinda directed to leonard
  11. [11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> since it was decay vs leo
  12. [11:58] <08@MiFU|Work> had both of them banned after that
  13. [11:59] <Jenova> no
  14. [11:59] <Jenova> i meant
  15. [11:59] <Jenova> when was this posted, april
  16. [11:59] <Jenova> read your first post
  17. [11:59] <Jenova> you said you will take drama shit more seriously
  18. [12:00] <Jenova> read the posts
  19. [12:00] <Jenova> are you blind
  20. [12:00] <Jenova> in the topic
  21. [12:00] <Jenova> one_two, leonard, hypnotoad
  22. [12:00] <Jenova> and im only on page 2
  23. [12:01] <Jenova> and still you do nothing
  24. [12:01] <Jenova> how many people is it going to take
  25. [12:01] <Jenova> to tell you to ban these idiots
  26. [12:01] <Jenova> before you finally do it
  27. [12:02] <Jenova> dude
  28. [12:02] <Jenova> how many people have complained about me
  29. [12:02] <Jenova> on the forums
  30. [12:02] <Jenova> as an example
  31. [12:03] <Jenova> also this whole split between irc/forums is absolutely retarded imo
  32. [12:04] <Jenova> like, different bans for irc compared to forums
  33. [12:04] <Jenova> they both serve almost identical purposes
  34. [12:04] <08@MiFU|Work> so would you rather it also affect ingame aswell?
  35. [12:04] <Jenova> no because the game is for playing the game
  36. [12:04] <Jenova> the forums and irc are for talking to people
  37. [12:04] <Jenova> if you are a shitbag on irc, you are also most likely a shitbag on the forums
  38. [12:05] <Jenova> its not like people magically stop becoming fucking assholes on irc
  39. [12:05] <Jenova> compared to the forums
  40. [12:05] <08@MiFU|Work> fair call
  41. [12:05] <Jenova> if you are unlikeable on the forums then you will be unlikeable on irc too
  42. [12:05] <08@MiFU|Work> why it was split in the first place? im pretty sure someone complained about that ages ago
  43. [12:05] <Jenova> dude
  44. [12:05] <Jenova> the [people complaining are members who are banned from irc or the forums
  45. [12:06] <Jenova> and dont want to be impacted
  46. [12:06] <Jenova> do you think a good poster who doesnt annoy people gives a shit
  47. [12:06] <08@MiFU|Work> not in my time of me being admin though, but yea that needs to change
  48. [12:06] <Jenova> like
  49. [12:06] <Jenova> a person who follows the rules, they will not get banned from either
  50. [12:06] <Jenova> a person who posts shit on the forums will probably also get banned from tons of irc channels or even glined
  51. [12:06] <Jenova> there are countless examples
  52. [12:06] <Jenova> metalguy
  53. [12:06] <Jenova> mr cheater
  54. [12:06] <Jenova> mobius
  55. [12:07] <Jenova> decay
  56. [12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> yea i get the point.
  57. [12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> as i said a few lines up
  58. [12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> it needs to be changed
  59. [12:07] <08@MiFU|Work> i agree
  60. [12:07] <Jenova> im not sure why it was split
  61. [12:07] <Jenova> but this is something imo you should discuss
  62. [12:07] <Jenova> with the other staff members
  63. [12:07] <Jenova> because i may be wrong tbh
  64. [12:07] <Jenova> maybe there are a few good reasons
  65. [12:08] <08@MiFU|Work> yea, i will discuss that with infurnus when hes available next actually
  66. [12:08] <08@MiFU|Work> and the rest of staff
  67. [12:08] <08@MiFU|Work> thanks for bringing it up
  68. [12:08] <Jenova> "Hey, any posts continuing Leonard vs everyone will be split from here on out and possibly warned depending on context."
  69. [12:08] <Jenova> post by TTA in that topic
  70. [12:09] <Jenova> not sure why the admins can't handle a discussion about a very important topic imo
  71. [12:10] <08@MiFU|Work> oh yea Jenova
  72. [12:10] <08@MiFU|Work> is it ok if i split that thread up that you got and put  the bits about the staff in its on thread?
  73. [12:10] <08@MiFU|Work> or you dont mind it to be still attached to your be moderation changes?
  74. [12:11] <Jenova> you can do whatever you want
  75. [12:11] <Jenova> i dont care about topics or semantics
  76. [12:11] <Jenova> i just want a place to post my opinions
  77. [12:11] <08@MiFU|Work> aight, probs best if i do since the thread kinda does not relate to your be changes anymore, makes it more neat i guess
  78. [12:11] <Jenova> look at page 3 in that thread
  79. [12:12] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways im about to post in there since i finished work
  80. [12:12] <Jenova> no problem
  81. [12:12] <Jenova> imo ibm5155 does a good job of explaining the problem
  82. [12:13] <08@MiFU|Work> he pm'ed me about this actually
  83. [12:13] <08@MiFU|Work> as in your thread
  84. [12:13] <Jenova> what did he say
  85. [12:13] <Jenova> well
  86. [12:13] <Jenova> actually thats not my concern
  87. [12:13] <08@MiFU|Work> not gonna reveal the details though he did say keep it quiet but yea
  88. [12:14] <08@MiFU|Work> oh yea
  89. [12:14] <Jenova> off topic but
  90. [12:14] <Jenova> what was galactus' original ban length if you remember?
  91. [12:15] <Jenova> i think i tried to talk you guys down and reduce it but my memory is fuzzy
  92. [12:15] <Jenova> idk if you remember at all
  93. [12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> gave him 3 months
  94. [12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> you did actually
  95. [12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> watakid told us he knew about that exploit
  96. [12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> so we gave him a month instead like fatelord because of that
  97. [12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> then he went ahead and ban evaded
  98. [12:15] <08@MiFU|Work> he should of been unbanned now though as it expired
  99. [12:16] <Jenova> ah yes
  100. [12:16] <Jenova> now i remember
  101. [12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways what we got out of this is
  102. [12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> to me more strict which i promise that will happen
  103. [12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> may need to review rules and how we deal punishments now though
  104. [12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> to be*
  105. [12:17] <08@MiFU|Work> fffff
  106. [12:18] <Jenova> no
  107. [12:18] <Jenova> we didnt get anything
  108. [12:18] <Jenova> everyone hates your staff team
  109. [12:18] <Jenova> read the forums
  110. [12:18] <Jenova> you are plugging your ears
  111. [12:18] <Jenova> and going "la la la"
  112. [12:18] <Jenova> and letting shitty people clog up irc and the forums
  113. [12:18] <Jenova> and saying "dont worry everything is ok"
  114. [12:18] <Jenova> but its not ok
  115. [12:18] <Jenova> because you never do anything to stop it
  116. [12:18] <Jenova> you say that you will
  117. [12:18] <Jenova> but you never do
  118. [12:19] <Jenova> you want to avoid criticism
  119. [12:19] <Jenova> that was extremely clear in our conversation the other day
  120. [12:19] <Jenova> you are a weak administrator
  121. [12:19] <Jenova> you are weak minded and easily controlled
  122. [12:19] <Jenova> you cannot formulate your own opinions on topics
  123. [12:20] <Jenova> you look to others for help -- when those people you're looking to are the ones that are shitting up the forums
  124. 06[12:20] <04+HeavenWraith> I'd just like to point out, that there will be criticism either way. It's just the matter of who's criticism you will hear
  125. [12:20] <Jenova> i dont doubt you are a good person but imo from this entire experience its made me lose a tremendous amount of respect for you
  126. 13[12:20] <Jenova> of course kuchi
  127. [12:20] <Jenova> but can you seriously tell me from the various topics posted every few months
  128. [12:20] <Jenova> that its not the same few problem players causing these issues
  129. [12:21] <Jenova> i can literally summarize this drama
  130. 06[12:21] <04+HeavenWraith> you already asked me that yesterday
  131. 06[12:21] <04+HeavenWraith> or was it a day before
  132. [12:21] <Jenova> i don't know
  133. [12:21] <Jenova> there will be criticism
  134. [12:21] <08@MiFU|Work> i did say to you next thing they do and its a perm
  135. [12:21] <Jenova> and people will give you shit no matter what you do
  136. [12:21] <Jenova> of course
  137. [12:21] <Jenova> next time
  138. [12:21] <Jenova> mobius was ALREADY
  139. [12:21] <08@MiFU|Work> but im going to guess, you want em out now
  140. [12:21] <Jenova> PERM BANNED
  141. [12:21] <Jenova> BEFORE
  142. [12:21] <Jenova> he was literally
  143. [12:21] <Jenova> perm banned
  144. [12:21] <08@MiFU|Work> as in right now
  145. [12:21] <Jenova> then he ban evaded
  146. [12:21] <Jenova> TWICE
  147. [12:21] <Jenova> then his ban was lowered
  148. [12:21] <Jenova> because "perm ban is unfair"
  149. [12:21] <Jenova> THEN HE DID SHIT AGAIN
  150. [12:21] <Jenova> AND NOW UR FUCKING
  151. [12:21] <Jenova> SITTING HERE
  152. [12:22] <Jenova> AND TELLING ME
  153. [12:22] <Jenova> ITS OK
  154. [12:22] <Jenova> ???????????????????????
  155. [12:22] <Jenova> im fucking done dude
  156. [12:22] <Jenova> seriously
  157. [12:22] <Jenova> open your eyes
  158. [12:22] <Jenova> i dont know what to say
  159. [12:22] <Jenova> like
  160. [12:22] <Jenova> i dont know man
  161. [12:22] <Jenova> maybe im wrong
  162. [12:22] <Jenova> who the fuck knows
  163. [12:22] <Jenova> but from the support ive gotten from the community i seriously doubt it
  164. [12:22] <Jenova> and im sitting here and telling you this
  165. [12:23] <Jenova> as a player, who in the past, acted the exact same way they do now
  166. [12:23] <Jenova> and a player who has been playing here since 2005
  167. [12:23] <Jenova> since carnevil, skulltag online, metalhead
  168. 06[12:23] <04+HeavenWraith> you did convey your point, so instead or throwing a fit you could sit back for a while, wait the other party to organize his/her thoughts and come up with an answer to you
  169. [12:23] <Jenova> dujde
  170. [12:23] <Jenova> he told me his thought
  171. [12:23] <Jenova> he said them right here
  172. 06[12:23] <04+HeavenWraith> now you're just applying unnecessary pressure by posting walls of text
  173. [12:23] <Jenova> [05:21] <@MiFU|Work> i did say to you next thing they do and its a perm
  174. [12:23] <Jenova> this is his answer
  175. [12:23] <Jenova> to my topic
  176. [12:23] <Jenova> no
  177. [12:23] <Jenova> well yes
  178. [12:23] <Jenova> but the reason is because of the above
  179. [12:23] <Jenova> he already gave an answer
  180. [12:24] <Jenova> mobius has been given countless chances
  181. [12:24] <Jenova> nobody will dispute this
  182. [12:24] <Jenova> the thing is i've only gotten mifu's response to most of this anyways, everyone else seems to be doing their own thing (and that's fair -- people have lives)
  183. [12:25] <Jenova> but have you guys collectively decided that mobius should not be banned?
  184. [12:25] <Jenova> can i please have a log of the conversation?
  185. 06[12:25] <04+HeavenWraith> ok, fair enough, but the way you're behaving now the only message you're conveying is "I don't like your decision and I will make you rethink it"
  186. [12:25] <Jenova> to see what people thing
  187. 13[12:25] <Jenova> well kuchi thats exactly what i'm doing
  188. [12:25] <Jenova> i am voicing my discontent
  189. [12:25] <Jenova> what else am i supposed to do?
  190. 06[12:25] <04+HeavenWraith> alright, carry on then
  191. [12:25] <Jenova> i can leave and let mobius continue
  192. [12:25] <Jenova> i can also leave and believe that he will change
  193. [12:25] <Jenova> but he won't
  194. [12:28] <Jenova> in fact, Mifu hasn't even provided a single reason why mobius should not be banned (or why he should)
  195. [12:28] <Jenova> i just want to know _why_
  196. [12:28] <Jenova> if you want to permban him next time that's your decision
  197. [12:28] <Jenova> if you want to permban him now that's also your decision
  198. [12:29] <Jenova> but please explain why, like, for instance, maybe I overreacted about the whole strangle thing
  199. [12:29] <Jenova> maybe I am a shitty person not worth listening to
  200. [12:29] <Jenova> maybe mobius has done good for the community
  201. [12:29] <Jenova> maybe he has shown some type of reformation
  202. [12:29] <Jenova> maybe he hasn't been banned for a long time, so we should be more lenient
  203. [12:29] <Jenova> i just want some reasons why the staff is doing what they do
  204. [12:29] <Jenova> i will be happy whatever they do as long as they properly justify it
  205. [12:30] <08@MiFU|Work> well when we unbanned him from the forums, hes shown that he was civil (till recent events that is)
  206. [12:30] <08@MiFU|Work> you can ask TTA this also he brought it up one day
  207. [12:30] <Jenova> i dont doubt it
  208. [12:30] <Jenova> i dont think you would lie
  209. [12:30] <Jenova> and thats definitely something to consider
  210. [12:30] <Jenova> what I have provided are some other things to consider
  211. [12:31] <Jenova> so when you guys have a conversation and decide what you want to do (bonus point if you post this log so we can understand what each person thinks imo) you can justify it and logically conclude the "most correct" choice
  212. [12:31] <Jenova> there is no correct choice, this isn't like mathematics where there is a right answer
  213. [12:31] <Jenova> there is only the least bad answer
  214. 07[12:32] * Galactus (~Galactus@Galactus.users.zandronum.com) has joined #zastaff
  215. 03[12:32] * Galactus (~Galactus@Galactus.users.zandronum.com) has left #zastaff ("Leaving")
  216. [12:34] <Jenova> obviously you already know my opinion, and you know mobius' opinion
  217. [12:34] <Jenova> then you can look at the facts and seriously consider what is right and just
  218. 07[12:35] * Siferah (Metatron@Holy.Meow) has joined #zastaff
  219. [12:36] <08@MiFU|Work> yea ofc
  220. [12:36] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways my point personally
  221. [12:37] <Jenova> also I find it funny people are complaining about this whole BE change
  222. [12:37] <Jenova> people have left the community because they were chased off by these people
  223. [12:37] <Jenova> why can't I do the same thing?
  224. [12:37] <Jenova> if I don't like it I can pack up and leave too
  225. [12:37] <Jenova> stupid imo
  226. [12:37] <Jenova> you dont see people criticizing jwarrier when he left
  227. [12:37] <Jenova> and i applaud him for doing it imo, he stood his ground
  228. [12:38] <Jenova> didnt take this dumb shit, saw that he couldnt change anything
  229. [12:38] <Jenova> just because I run servers I have to keep running them?
  230. [12:38] <Jenova> this is stupid
  231. [12:38] <08@MiFU|Work> now, for me to just ban him based on the amount of infractions he had I feel it may be unfair because it would mean others who may have got banned multiple times
  232. [12:39] <Siferah> Note that Jwarrier does it wrong
  233. [12:39] <08@MiFU|Work> somone will pull that shit, i would know because we also used to do that
  234. [12:39] <Siferah> I've seen numerous examples of self-contained communities in this port, right now — #sot
  235. [12:39] <Siferah> And to be more on topic, you can't blame the community for Jwarrier's leave
  236. [12:40] <Siferah> He had EG. What's EG? EG was a separate community that had it's own traditions and such, they were basically friends
  237. [12:40] <Siferah> Yet Jwar preferred to go outside, get shittalked and mad
  238. [12:42] <Siferah> Try joining SoT's teamspeak and shittalk them on there, or A3's teamspeak and shittalk them on there, you'll just get banned and they will continue having fun with each other barely interacting with the general community
  239. [12:42] <Siferah> End of point :)
  240. [12:42] <Jenova> MiFU|Work
  241. [12:43] <Jenova> who else was banned more than mobius
  242. [12:43] <Jenova> for causing shit on the forums
  243. [12:43] <Jenova> besides decay obviously, lmao
  244. [12:43] <08@MiFU|Work> well you had capo for a while
  245. [12:44] <Siferah> I'm not sure but Nautilus maybe?
  246. [12:44] <Jenova> ok
  247. [12:44] <Jenova> so you're telling me
  248. [12:44] <Jenova> yes
  249. [12:44] <Jenova> nautilus
  250. [12:44] <Jenova> capo
  251. [12:44] <Siferah> I don't remember if he was getting banned for walking around and internet bullying
  252. [12:44] <Jenova> are all terrible human beings
  253. [12:44] <08@MiFU|Work> yea i think naut had it as well
  254. [12:44] <Jenova> the thing is
  255. [12:44] <Jenova> naut was not personal
  256. [12:44] <Jenova> naut was like
  257. [12:44] <Jenova> naut was a personality
  258. [12:44] <Jenova> ok its stupid and hard to explain but
  259. [12:44] <08@MiFU|Work> there are others, i cant recall right now
  260. [12:44] <Jenova> when mobius shits on you he will legitimately try to make you feel like a piece of shit
  261. [12:44] <Jenova> when naut shits on you it was to poke fun at you
  262. [12:45] <Jenova> he did it to me all the time
  263. [12:45] <Jenova> called me a slimey croat
  264. [12:45] <Jenova> etc etc
  265. [12:45] <Jenova> very different context imo
  266. [12:46] <Siferah> btw if you ban someone at the forums it'd be good to separate forums from IRC and not do like last Mobius ban
  267. [12:46] <Jenova> no
  268. [12:46] <Siferah> Where he got banned literally everywhere but the game itself
  269. [12:46] <Jenova> imo you should ban them from both
  270. [12:46] <Jenova> not the game, but forums and irc
  271. [12:46] <Siferah> For some random PM argument with Metal
  272. [12:46] <Siferah> Or whatever it was
  273. [12:46] <Jenova> metal made a lot of stupid bans imo
  274. [12:46] <Jenova> but mobius was not one of them
  275. [12:47] <Siferah> It's not like the only thing Mobius does is shittalking, at least not on IRC
  276. [12:47] <Siferah> Like I said before don't compare him to Decay
  277. [12:47] <Siferah> Decay is a miracle, he shouldve been banned years ago
  278. [12:48] <Jenova> Siferah: decay does it obviously imo
  279. [12:49] <Jenova> like decay is brutally honest and will shit on you
  280. [12:49] <Jenova> and decay is a smart dude
  281. [12:49] <Jenova> Mobius is like...
  282. [12:49] <Jenova> he will drag you down by photoshopping pics of you and spam them on irc
  283. [12:49] <Jenova> and will try to justify it because you called one of his clan members retarded
  284. [12:49] <Jenova> or w.e
  285. [12:50] <Siferah> Your pics aren't you
  286. [12:50] <Siferah> I don't understand why people take it so serious here
  287. [12:50] <Jenova> so you think thats ok?
  288. [12:50] <Jenova> i mean
  289. [12:50] <Siferah> JZ made a video full of random photos
  290. [12:50] <Siferah> And still not banned
  291. [12:50] <Jenova> yes
  292. [12:50] <Jenova> but nobody likes jz
  293. [12:50] <Jenova> and jz is retarded
  294. [12:50] <Siferah> For another reason generally
  295. [12:50] <Jenova> mobius is not retarded
  296. [12:50] <Jenova> and has a lot of friends who follow him
  297. [12:50] <Jenova> who do the same shit
  298. [12:50] <Siferah> Nobody likes JZ because he's generally stupid and aggressive shit
  299. [12:50] <Siferah> lol
  300. [12:50] <Siferah> Not because he made that video
  301. [12:50] <Siferah> Point is no one cares
  302. [12:50] <Jenova> and jz was banned also
  303. [12:50] <Jenova> for the same shit
  304. [12:50] <Siferah> mmm
  305. [12:51] <Jenova> look
  306. [12:51] <Siferah> Sorry then didn't know
  307. [12:51] <Siferah> <Jenova>  so you think thats ok?
  308. [12:51] <Siferah> Definitely NOT ok
  309. [12:51] <Siferah> But not worth a perm
  310. [12:51] <Siferah> Which is what Mobius was supposed to have until he got unbanned by a separate decision
  311. [12:53] <Siferah> I don't understand why instead of giving out separate punishments directly after an offense people prefer to wait few months until it accumulates and then outright give a perm
  312. [12:54] <Siferah> That's the case with most trolling-related offenses here
  313. [12:54] <Jenova> Siferah
  314. [12:54] <Siferah> hi
  315. [12:54] <Jenova> you are acting like mobius was never banned before
  316. [12:54] <Jenova> this isnt like
  317. [12:54] <Siferah> He was
  318. [12:54] <Jenova> i know he was
  319. [12:54] <Jenova> i am aware of that
  320. [12:54] <Siferah> But it's like
  321. [12:54] <Jenova> my point is that its like essentially a character reference
  322. [12:54] <Siferah> Wasn't it always for undefined amount of time
  323. [12:54] <Siferah> like
  324. [12:54] <Jenova> to the type of person he is
  325. [12:55] <Siferah> "he now be banned"
  326. [12:55] <Siferah> Next week "lets unban him"
  327. [12:55] <Jenova> idk tbh
  328. [12:55] <Jenova> i dont remember
  329. [12:55] <Jenova> i dont know how many times hes been banned
  330. [12:55] <Jenova> but i'd imagine its quit a lot
  331. [12:55] <Jenova> and idk how long either
  332. [12:55] <Jenova> i can prob ballpark but its not like i have any influence on him getting banned in the past
  333. [12:55] <Jenova> I'm not trying to say he should be banned because he was a shitty person in the past
  334. [12:56] <Jenova> I'm trying to say that BECAUSE he was a shitty person in the past, and he obviously has not changed since then
  335. [12:56] <Jenova> that maybe the staff should think about not just banning him from #zandronum
  336. [12:56] <Jenova> but perhaps maybe from irc or the forums
  337. [12:56] <Jenova> I believe that banning should do two things: 1. make you not do the same shit again, and 2. give a little bit of "justice" to the victim
  338. [12:57] <Jenova> obviously #1 has not worked
  339. [12:57] <Jenova> because he does the same thing over and over
  340. [12:57] <Jenova> and he will try to tell you he doesnt
  341. [12:57] <Jenova> or that "he is not Ral"
  342. [12:57] <Jenova> "i am not rustking"
  343. [12:57] <Jenova> "i am not strangle"
  344. [12:57] <Jenova> but being a part of their teamspeak
  345. [12:57] <Jenova> from back in 2010 or whatever
  346. [12:57] <Jenova> i can tell you that this is a group effort
  347. [13:04] <08@TerminusEst13> <Jenova> but have you guys collectively decided that mobius should not be banned?
  348. [13:05] <08@TerminusEst13> my suggestion was "boot everyone involved, get the he-said-she-said nonsense out of here, go scrap it out in teamspeak or something, this is stupid"
  349. [13:05] <08@TerminusEst13> we are probably not going with my suggestion
  350. 07[13:05] * TerminusEst13 is now known as TerminusEst13|Zzzz
  351. [13:13] <Jenova> ahaha
  352. [13:13] <Jenova> my only problem with that mentality is that imo it sort of "paves the way" to do stupid shit in the future
  353. [13:14] <Jenova> but nonetheless if you had told me this 4 years ago I would have told you that's the only obvious answer
  354. [13:15] <08@MiFU|Work> alright bout time i actually headed home
  355. [13:15] <08@MiFU|Work> for now, that decision about permaing them next time stands
  356. [13:16] <Jenova> that's fine
  357. [13:16] <Jenova> i expect you will have a conversation about this though?
  358. [13:16] <Jenova> would it be possible to provide a log if you do so
  359. [13:16] <Jenova> i just want to see what various staff members think
  360. [13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> yea we will talk it out more
  361. [13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> yea sure
  362. [13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> also
  363. [13:16] <08@MiFU|Work> im going to ask something real quick
  364. [13:16] <Jenova> sure
  365. [13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> during the day i noticed in the thread while catching up etc
  366. [13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> everyone seems to be bringing back old grudges
  367. [13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> like some of the spak vs a3 shit
  368. [13:17] <Jenova> before you continue
  369. [13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> etc
  370. [13:17] <Jenova> can you give me some examples
  371. [13:17] <Jenova> so i can see what you're talking about
  372. [13:17] <Jenova> in the topic I mean
  373. [13:17] <08@MiFU|Work> yea sure give me a min
  374. [13:17] <Jenova> just so I know what we're talking about
  375. [13:17] <Jenova> thanks
  376. [13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> well this when mobius breaks down your post and explains parts
  377. [13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> https://zandronum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=7484&start=20#p98629
  378. [13:20] <LinkBot> [ Major Best Ever moderation change - Zandronum ]
  379. [13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> alot of past and timeline stuff
  380. [13:20] <Jenova> of course
  381. [13:20] <Jenova> thats his argument technique
  382. [13:20] <08@MiFU|Work> is there an offical grudge i should know about?
  383. [13:20] <Jenova> deflect his problems and try to make me look bad
  384. [13:20] <Jenova> well its not mystery that me and mobius have been on and off lovers for quite a while
  385. [13:20] <Jenova> we've been cool, then hated each other, then been cool
  386. [13:21] <Jenova> i could tell you 50 things that he did in the past
  387. [13:21] <Jenova> including talking about fucking children on altdeath, raping babies and little girls
  388. [13:21] <Jenova> and talking about juicy 7 year old puffy anime girl pussy
  389. [13:21] <Jenova> but i dont post about that
  390. [13:21] <Jenova> because it has no relevence on the topic
  391. [13:22] <Jenova> im not going to sit here and tell you everything that he did in the past
  392. [13:22] <Jenova> because that doesnt matter for the most part
  393. [13:22] <Jenova> what matters is his mindset
  394. [13:22] <08@MiFU|Work> yea nah thats fine
  395. [13:22] <Jenova> its not the fact that he did these things 4 years ago
  396. [13:22] <Jenova> its that he did them 4 years ago and continues to do them to this day
  397. [13:22] <Jenova> despite being banned multiple times
  398. [13:22] <Jenova> thats the core of my argument
  399. [13:22] <Jenova> essentially
  400. [13:23] <08@MiFU|Work> ok i wanted to know, thats all
  401. [13:24] <Jenova> yes i dislike him
  402. [13:24] <Jenova> strongly
  403. [13:24] <08@MiFU|Work> either way we (the staff) know its going to end badly regardless anyways
  404. [13:24] <Jenova> but even in light of this, i think what i say is reasonable to people who have not talked to him
  405. [13:24] <Jenova> thats obviously up to them to decide but ya
  406. [13:26] <08@MiFU|Work> alrighty, im hoping it aint busy at work tomorrow so we can talk more about this
  407. [13:26] <08@MiFU|Work> with staff and you and whoever else
  408. [13:27] <08@MiFU|Work> i was gonna make a post but i think ima draft it and save it till tomorrow
  409. [13:27] <08@MiFU|Work> incase anything changes with the current plan
  410. [13:27] <Jenova> you already know what im going to say
  411. [13:27] <Jenova> keep me out of your convos
  412. [13:27] <Jenova> because i am just going to get angry and call you retarded
  413. [13:27] <08@MiFU|Work> aight
  414. [13:28] <08@MiFU|Work> oh yea last thing before i go, about people complaining about  your BE change
  415. [13:28] <08@MiFU|Work> you probs already know this but yea
  416. [13:29] <08@MiFU|Work> despite people complaining, if you think the change is gonna work, just stick with it
  417. [13:29] <08@MiFU|Work> your cash as you said
  418. [13:29] <Jenova> MiFU|Work we are adults here
  419. [13:29] <Jenova> im not stupid
  420. [13:29] <Jenova> i know its a terrible change
  421. [13:29] <Jenova> did you not read my long ass post
  422. [13:30] <Jenova> the entire reason I made that change was because I didn't want to moderate the community for admins who (in my opinion) don't properly moderate the community themselves
  423. [13:30] <Jenova> and as I said, it's extremely petty of me to do something like that
  424. [13:30] <Jenova> but i believe this is the only way to get people to listen and pay attention
  425. [13:30] <Jenova> if that thread about decay is anything to go off of
  426. [13:31] <Jenova> the only way to get shit done in this community is to threaten crap
  427. [13:31] <Jenova> and I'd like to think that I've contributed a bunch of this community
  428. [13:31] <Jenova> and I don't want it to look like an ultimatum of "its me or mobius" and I don't want you to think its like that
  429. [13:31] <Jenova> i was just generally voicing my dissatisafction with the only way I could tbh
  430. [13:32] <Jenova> i mean, i have already done my job to be honest
  431. [13:32] <Jenova> i have made a lot of players aware of how the staff (in my opinion) mishandles some bans
  432. [13:32] <Jenova> and you have already told me you will take these things more seriously
  433. [13:32] <Jenova> which even though it may seem like i don't, i do respect
  434. [13:33] <Jenova> because worst case scenario he just gets permbanned for causing shit
  435. [13:33] <Jenova> the next time
  436. [13:33] <Jenova> which is fine
  437. [13:33] <Jenova> but given the track record of "perm bans" and history of his bans... i don't know, i just don't believe it
  438. [13:33] <Jenova> maybe not now
  439. [13:33] <Jenova> but 6 months from now
  440. [13:33] <Jenova> someone will think.. "hey, maybe mobius should be given another chance"
  441. [13:33] <Jenova> and all of this repeats
  442. [13:33] <Jenova> like it has for the past 5 years
  443. [13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> im going to ensure you now that
  444. [13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> im not going to let it happen
  445. [13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> not anymore
  446. [13:34] <08@MiFU|Work> once we (staff) discuss it through again anyways and to see if we want to change things up
  447. [13:35] <08@MiFU|Work> we stopped doing perm bans because i do remember someone complained about a perm ban meaning well.. perm (might of been related to cheaters at the time as iirc we used to perm ban them)
  448. [13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> but anyways yea
  449. [13:36] <Jenova> who complained about this
  450. [13:36] <Jenova> when you say someone im assuming it was a staff member
  451. [13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> i cant recall who exactly but i can say it was ST era
  452. [13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> before we moved
  453. [13:36] <08@MiFU|Work> and it was not a staff member
  454. [13:37] <Jenova> tbh
  455. [13:37] <Jenova> i think permbans are also bad
  456. [13:37] <Jenova> and here are the reasons why
  457. [13:37] <Jenova> 1. permbans encourage people to ban evade because there is absolutely no chance for retribution
  458. [13:37] <Jenova> 2. permbans don't take into account changes in character in the future
  459. [13:38] <Jenova> but
  460. [13:38] <Jenova> on the contrary
  461. [13:38] <Jenova> i also think a ban from #zandronum is useless
  462. [13:38] <Jenova> because they will still shit up the network
  463. [13:38] <08@MiFU|Work> yea that was the same argument that was used
  464. [13:39] <08@MiFU|Work> still cant recall who said it and who agreed to it
  465. [13:39] <08@MiFU|Work> i was also irc op at the time
  466. [13:39] <08@MiFU|Work> so i mained irc mostly
  467. [13:39] <Jenova> i dont know why there are different ops for everything
  468. [13:40] <Jenova> ircop.. forum admin.. master server admin..
  469. [13:40] <Jenova> all stupid titles
  470. [13:40] <Jenova> staff should be equal imo
  471. [13:40] <Jenova> when i ask someone
  472. [13:40] <Jenova> "
  473. [13:40] <Jenova> "hey, why didnt you lock this/kick this guy/ban this user"
  474. [13:40] <Jenova> they say
  475. [13:40] <Jenova> "im not a forum admin"
  476. [13:40] <Jenova> but they are obviously good enough to be an irc admin?
  477. [13:40] <Jenova> whats the difference?
  478. [13:41] <Jenova> just a title
  479. [13:41] <Jenova> if someone is good enough to be a forum
  480. [13:41] <Jenova> admin
  481. [13:41] <Jenova> then they are good enough to be a master server admin
  482. [13:41] <Jenova> and an irc admin
  483. [13:41] <Jenova> or whatever
  484. [13:41] <Jenova> you pick admins based on the people, not based on what they can do
  485. [13:41] <Jenova> i think it makes sense for people like konar
  486. [13:41] <Jenova> or you mifu
  487. [13:41] <Jenova> because you actually run the master server
  488. [13:41] <Jenova> and konar runs irc
  489. [13:41] <Jenova> that makes sense
  490. [13:42] <Jenova> but we dont need to split the admins into groups of 3
  491. [13:42] <Jenova> like for instance, i dont even know what term is?
  492. [13:42] <Jenova> is he an irc admin? a forum admin? a master server admin?
  493. [13:42] <Jenova> i assume he is all 3
  494. [13:42] <Jenova> but i have no idea
  495. [13:42] <08@MiFU|Work> yea ive been trying to get all the roles merged
  496. [13:43] <Jenova> like what harm could giving master server access to a forum admin do?
  497. [13:43] <Jenova> do you not trust them or something?
  498. [13:43] <08@MiFU|Work> some people dont really want the extra responsibility of being a forum admin or w/e though. Im kinda tempted to be like, heres the permission nayways
  499. [13:43] <Jenova> imo if they dont want that responsibility they should not be a part of the staff
  500. [13:44] <Siferah> <Jenova>  i also think a ban from #zandronum is useless
  501. [13:44] <Siferah> <Jenova>  because they will still shit up the network
  502. [13:44] <Siferah> The purpose of ban from #zandronum is to not get newcomers straight into zandrama
  503. [13:44] <Siferah> Obviously
  504. [13:44] <08@MiFU|Work> yea i should actually just be like its part of the package and thus you will need to do this now
  505. [13:44] <Siferah> It's not to prevent the trolls from trolling
  506. [13:44] <Jenova> of course
  507. [13:44] <Jenova> and that makes sense, for #zandronum trolls
  508. [13:44] <Jenova> people like hobo filstyn
  509. [13:44] <Jenova> or metalguy (he is dumb sometimes)
  510. [13:45] <Jenova> but when these people get a groupf 5 and start joining other channels
  511. [13:45] <Jenova> to shit on you
  512. [13:45] <Jenova> maybe its time to draw the line?
  513. [13:45] <Jenova> they bully people
  514. [13:45] <Jenova> ok i know it sounds dumb but
  515. [13:45] <Jenova> for instance
  516. [13:45] <Siferah> Point is, #zandronum ban is important nevertheless, even though it often means nothing to the trolls
  517. [13:45] <Jenova> yes you're right
  518. [13:45] <Jenova> it is importnat
  519. [13:45] <Jenova> but in this case its about as important as the 15 minute ban rustking gave ral for votekick abuse
  520. [13:45] <Jenova> maybe important to people who talk in zandronum but.. mobius?
  521. [13:46] <Siferah> As for the network shitting
  522. [13:46] <Jenova> do you think he cares?
  523. [13:46] <Siferah> well dude
  524. [13:46] <Siferah> I have capo banned at #vgl
  525. [13:46] <Siferah> He has never evaded
  526. [13:46] <Siferah> And if he did
  527. [13:46] <Siferah> He'd quickly get rebanned
  528. [13:46] <Jenova> yes
  529. [13:46] <Siferah> Same with A3 if I wanted to
  530. [13:46] <Siferah> What's the problem
  531. [13:46] <Jenova> now listen to this
  532. [13:46] <Jenova> ok
  533. [13:46] <Jenova> thats my point
  534. [13:46] <Jenova> you understand
  535. [13:46] <Jenova> i understand
  536. [13:46] <Jenova> i would do the exact same thing
  537. [13:46] <Jenova> but lots of people dont because they are scared of being harassed
  538. [13:46] <Jenova> by these smae people
  539. [13:46] <Jenova> like
  540. [13:46] <Jenova> if mobius joins a random channel where i am not an op
  541. [13:46] <Jenova> and he is not an op
  542. [13:47] <Jenova> and starts trash talking me
  543. [13:47] <Jenova> it is up to the channel op to ban
  544. [13:47] <Jenova> i agree with you 100%
  545. [13:47] <Jenova> but at the same time, if they ban mobius, then mobius will start shitting on them too
  546. [13:47] <Jenova> and so will rustking
  547. [13:47] <Jenova> and strangle
  548. [13:47] <Jenova> and ivan
  549. [13:47] <Jenova> and decay
  550. [13:47] <Jenova> etc etc
  551. [13:47] <Jenova> i think you need to draw the line at one point
  552. [13:47] <Jenova> do you think
  553. [13:47] <Jenova> people will ban me?
  554. [13:48] <Jenova> ao maybe you will ban me
  555. [13:48] <Siferah> lol
  556. [13:48] <Jenova> but i guarantee i can say mostly anything
  557. [13:48] <Jenova> in any channel
  558. [13:48] <Jenova> and i will not be banned
  559. [13:48] <Siferah> Like I've mentioned at #grandvoid
  560. [13:48] <Jenova> no matter how bad it is
  561. [13:48] <Jenova> i could be racist as fuck
  562. [13:48] <Jenova> and say the stupidest shit
  563. [13:48] <Siferah> No one really voices that you should be banned
  564. [13:48] <Siferah> Even A3 is too scared
  565. [13:48] <Jenova> and i would most likely not be banned
  566. [13:48] <Siferah> To write it directly
  567. [13:48] <Jenova> exactly
  568. [13:48] <Jenova> thats my point
  569. [13:48] <Jenova> and its the same thing with a3
  570. [13:48] <Jenova> to a lesser extent
  571. [13:48] <Jenova> what are they going to do
  572. [13:48] <Jenova> i could be petty and ban them from BE
  573. [13:48] <Jenova> or NJ
  574. [13:48] <Jenova> or wahtever
  575. [13:49] <Jenova> im not going to do that
  576. [13:49] <Jenova> obviously
  577. [13:49] <Jenova> but theres an option
  578. [13:49] <Jenova> and if you ban people like mobius you cut yourself off from a part of that community
  579. [13:49] <Jenova> no matter how shitty it is
  580. [13:49] <Jenova> ok anyways i need to go to sleep
  581. [13:49] <Jenova> ill b on tomorrow
  582. [13:49] <Jenova> good night
  583. [13:49] <08@MiFU|Work> gnight
  584. [13:49] <08@MiFU|Work> and i need to head home, so ill cya guys later
  585. [13:50] <Siferah> <Jenova>  and if you ban people like mobius you cut yourself off from a part of that community
  586. [13:50] <Siferah> You also cut that community off zan
  587. [13:50] <Siferah> And it's not always a good thing
  588. [13:50] <Siferah> Because like I said, Decay is unique
  589. [13:50] <Siferah> Most people also do something good and are overall nice to talk with when they aren't trolling
  590. [13:51] <Siferah> So well
  591. [13:51] <Siferah> This is going nowhere
  592. [13:51] <Siferah> Because on one side Mobius should be banned, on the other if he gets banned everything will get boring again
  593. [13:51] <Siferah> Or not much, depends
  594. [13:52] <Siferah> I'd say just ban mobius and forget about it if it makes everyone happy
  595. [13:52] <08@MiFU|Work> something for staff to discuss tomorrow
  596. [13:52] <08@MiFU|Work> as i said
  597. [13:52] <08@MiFU|Work> we already know, no matter what we do
  598. [13:53] <08@MiFU|Work> its going to end badly for someone or people
  599. [13:53] <08@MiFU|Work> cant keep everyone happy btw Siferah
  600. [13:53] <Siferah> Mobius was banned already
  601. [13:53] <Siferah> And there was evidence
  602. [13:54] <Siferah> That this doesn't change much community wise
  603. [13:54] <Siferah> That's why.
  604. [13:54] <08@MiFU|Work> that is true, it dident really affect much apart from as you mentioned it, bordorm
  605. [13:55] <Siferah> So I'd just be like "unbanning him was a mistake, sorry guys"
  606. [13:55] <Siferah> And return it to what it was
  607. [13:55] <Siferah> :P
  608. [13:55] <Siferah> Well here is an argument against it
  609. [13:55] <Siferah> Jenova went to sleep but I'll quote him from #grandvoid since u arent there
  610. [13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>  if they sat down and talked about why mobius should not be banned
  611. [13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>  and they came up with good reasons
  612. [13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>  and they GENUINELY thought the reasons were good
  613. [13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>  then i would be upset
  614. [13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>  but I would say "ok"
  615. [13:56] <Siferah> <Jenova>  because its their decision and not mine
  616. [13:57] <Siferah> So here is the chance to both have Jen stop raising the shit and keep A3 unbanned
  617. [13:57] <Siferah> @ MiFU|Work
  618. [13:58] <08@MiFU|Work> aight, cheers
  619. [13:58] <08@MiFU|Work> anyways im heading out now
  620. [13:58] <08@MiFU|Work> i'll cya later
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