a guest Apr 21st, 2012 1,202 Never
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  1. tl;dr Eve is Easy is now at and Garmon, Will and Duncan no longer have any affiliation with or any e-mails attached to it and it is owned by Abbadon21. Abbadon21 tried to force Garmon to pay him money that he held but did not yet own. When Garmon refused to pay Abbadon21 until the 1 month refund period had passed to protect the members Abbadon21 decided to shut down the website, smear the name of Eve is Easy and Garmon and lock the contributors out. Read below for details.
  3. When we launched the Eve is Easy subscription service it was not what we wanted. Abbadon21 had approached us to make videos as he did with his website and he told us he would handle all the marketing aspects and make the website for us. All we had to do was make videos and then he would launch a subscription service.
  5. We trusted him and we started making videos. Increasingly we started to take on responsibilities he said he would perform. We raised awareness for it ourselves and talked to the community about it through podcasts, eve news posts, the forums and in-game channels. He himself did little to none of this. We also found people to help Abbadon21 create the website he said he would make himself and those volunteers ended up doing more work to get the websites up and running than he did himself.
  7. This entire time we were trying to sort out everything ourselves and make more videos Abbadon21 decided to go on a vacation for a week before subscription launch without anything done for the website. It had to be pushed back a week because of this and when he came back he spent most of his time creating the sleazy marketing video ( ) and text you all saw instead of working on the actual website. We had to get a volunteer to come in and put something together in less than a week for our re-launched subscription service.
  9. We argued on the price with him saying it was too high, we told him we felt the marketing approach he was taking was too extreme and treated our viewers like idiots. He told us not to worry because he knew what he was doing and had 10 years of marketing experience where we had none. In the end Garmon was swayed by his arguments despite protests from Will and Duncan he asked them to bite their tongues for the sake of the team and to get the work of making the new website done.
  11. Launch day happened and the sum of Abbadon21's contributions to the project was there for everyone to see on the front page. With the response from the community Garmon realized the terrible mistake he'd made and tried to fix it asking Abbadon21 to take an advisory role from now on. Abbadon21 agreed and asked for his 25% share of all the money to be given to him. As busy as we were trying to improve the half built website, make videos, keep our current members happy and explain our change in direction Garmon made another mistake and promised to pay him in 1 week when things had calmed down.
  13. When Will and Duncan learned about this they explained to Garmon that he shouldn't have done this because the money was not owned by Eve is Easy and that they had to be able to honour any requests for refunds in addition to waiting to see what CCP's response would be before handling any money. Garmon knew this himself without being told but was somehow convinced to make a promise he couldn't keep. Abbadon21 did not care about any of this and simply wanted his share of the money and threatened action if he did not get it when it was promised to him even though no one else was receiving money.
  15. From this exchange it became clear to Garmon that the team could not continue to work with Abbadon21. A day before Abbadon21 was told he would receive the money, and the day the team planned to explain to him that he could not be given it until the end of the month; he removed access to the website from everyone but himself. Garmon then spoke to him and told him we would give him his 25% share of all the money we had received at the end of the month in exchange for the domain name and that we would both part ways afterwards. He refused this offer and decided that the best course of action would be to try to smear our names on the website he now controlled and that if he couldn't get his share that he would tell all members to get refunds so that we could not continue to provide this content.
  17. We are not quitting and we won't be bullied by someone whose only concern is to make money off of other people with no regard for anything else. We have created our own website which we fully control and it is we are currently working on migrating all the content over and improving it for the June 1st re-launch.
  19. We will be continuing to provide all the services we did before and we still plan to reduce the price and make it accessible to many more people, another idea Abaddon21 was vehemently against. Garmon, Will and Duncan are no longer affiliated with anything posted on If you have any questions, requests or concerns please mail us at we no longer have access or are affiliated with
  21. We'd like to apologize for any inconvenience caused during this time of transition but we would like to assure you that in the end our members are our top priority going forward and now that we are no longer spending our time on internal disputes with Abbadon21 we can focus on making Eve is Easy for all of you.
  23. As part of our promise to be more open to the community from now on we have included the chat log with Abbadon21 before he decided to go down this path.
  25.     [17/04/2012 15:58:05] Chad Zetrouer: Hey, can you go ahead and send the 25% of sales so far. Then we need to get the employee access setup soon too.
  26.     [17/04/2012 16:01:42] Chad Zetrouer: Also, I see the changes you guys are making... If we are going to do the 5 dollar deal, I need to know because it will take few days to set it up.
  27.     [17/04/2012 16:02:17] Chad Zetrouer: right now if you do it, you will mix the 5 dollar people with the 19 dollar people and have no way of distinguishing them
  28.     [17/04/2012 16:03:32] Chad Zetrouer: we also need to change the mailing list along the same lines and then create some new 4 new webpages
  29.     [17/04/2012 16:04:21] Chad Zetrouer: I know how you could do it so that about half the people who buy "choose" to pay $19
  30.     [17/04/2012 16:04:37] Chad Zetrouer: and half of those will choose to pay for a year up front
  31.     [17/04/2012 16:44:40] garmondafydd: i was just out riding my bike for an hour, you just missed me
  32.     [17/04/2012 16:45:31] garmondafydd: on the 25% thing, like I said, give me a week or so, CCP still hasn't said anything and I need to be 100% sure
  33.     [17/04/2012 16:45:43] garmondafydd: For everything else, we dont need to worry about that for now, the re-launch is going to happen on the june of first
  34.     [17/04/2012 16:46:46] Chad Zetrouer: CCP won't say anything... I would rather get the 25% right now because I don't agree with the things you guys are doing and it would make me feel a whole lot better
  35.     [17/04/2012 16:48:16] Chad Zetrouer: The way it stands now, I feel like I'm completely out of the loop with everything and it worries me
  36.     [17/04/2012 16:48:38] Chad Zetrouer: so once I get my 25% I will feel MUCH better
  37.     [17/04/2012 16:49:06] garmondafydd: I gave you my word, and when I told about how I cant give it to you immediately and it would be a week or so, you were content with that, and I'm holding onto that
  38.     [17/04/2012 16:49:21] Chad Zetrouer: I said a few days
  39.     [17/04/2012 16:49:27] Chad Zetrouer: you said in less than a week
  40.     [17/04/2012 16:49:41] garmondafydd: we had this discussion 2 days ago, and I said a week at most
  41.     [17/04/2012 16:50:19] garmondafydd: I'm not doing anything until CCP talks to us because we need to be responsible for the sake of our customers
  42.     [17/04/2012 16:50:54] Chad Zetrouer: it's been a few days and nothing has happened. CCP can't do anything.
  43.     [17/04/2012 16:51:15] Chad Zetrouer: the main risk is that if you guys drop price to 5 there will be a flood of refunds
  44.     [17/04/2012 16:51:29] Chad Zetrouer: Thats not my choice and I don't want to risk my money on it
  45.     [17/04/2012 16:51:47] garmondafydd: The price doesn't drop for a month and a half, and we have communicated with our customers and they are all very happy with our new approach, not sure if you read the mail we sent or not
  46.     [17/04/2012 16:52:04] Chad Zetrouer: no I haven't, but will
  47.     [17/04/2012 16:52:54] Chad Zetrouer: sending the money now or in 5 days makes no difference in the scheme of things but it makes me feel better.
  48.     [17/04/2012 16:53:46] garmondafydd: You'll get it when it's responsible to do so, it would be very stupid for me to do right now
  49.     [17/04/2012 16:53:49] garmondafydd: and I gave you my word
  50.     [17/04/2012 16:55:21] Chad Zetrouer: you are worrying too much about ccp
  51.     [17/04/2012 16:55:35] Chad Zetrouer: blizzard couldn't do anything about skill capped even though they didn't like it
  52.     [17/04/2012 16:55:37] Chad Zetrouer: same here
  53.     [17/04/2012 16:56:06] Chad Zetrouer: hopefully ccp will like it, but if they don't the most they can do is ban accounts
  54.     [17/04/2012 16:57:51] Chad Zetrouer: Anyway, I don't want to be unreasonable, but I also feel very uneasy about the things you guys are doing with the website right now
  55.     [17/04/2012 16:58:19] Chad Zetrouer: there are a lot of changes that have been made, which will MASSIVELY reduce sales
  56.     [17/04/2012 16:59:25] garmondafydd: There was 0 before anything we changed
  57.     [17/04/2012 16:59:45] Chad Zetrouer: there were about 100 before change... none after
  58.     [17/04/2012 16:59:58] garmondafydd: The change happened a few hours ago
  59.     [17/04/2012 17:01:06] Chad Zetrouer: I thought it was before that but I can still tell you from experience, that iw won't sell as well
  60.     [17/04/2012 17:02:00] garmondafydd: We intend for our business model to be very similar to that of skill-capped
  61.     [17/04/2012 17:07:41] Chad Zetrouer: I know and like I said before I can't force you guys to use my experience here, and I'm not going to try
  62.     [17/04/2012 17:08:08] Chad Zetrouer: but the fact that I have no control has me stressed, so I want the 25% now before any more changes are made
  63.     [17/04/2012 17:08:59] Chad Zetrouer: I see you making big mistakes that I've learned not to make in the past, that worries me
  64.     [17/04/2012 17:11:11] Chad Zetrouer: Not trying to be an ass or anything, but I have to look out for myself here
  65.     [17/04/2012 17:11:24] Chad Zetrouer: and that means I have to be firm
  66.     [17/04/2012 17:12:22] garmondafydd: and I need to look out for our customers... We don't know what CCP can do yet, things might be different between us and CCP compared to Blizzard and skill-capped, and frankly I'm not going to take that risk, infact it would be completely retarded, and irresponsible for me to take that risk
  67.     [17/04/2012 17:12:44] Chad Zetrouer: you wil never know what ccp can do
  68.     [17/04/2012 17:13:07] Chad Zetrouer: most likely if they do anything it will be in about 2 to 3 months after they have had lawyers mess with it
  69.     [17/04/2012 17:13:29] Chad Zetrouer: then should they want to spend the money to do it, it will only be a cease and desist order
  70.     [17/04/2012 17:13:42] Chad Zetrouer: a scary piece of paper that means nothing
  71.     [17/04/2012 17:14:31] Chad Zetrouer: then should try to take it to court they will have to do take a year or more to get through that and the end result would be a take down order
  72.     [17/04/2012 17:14:36] Chad Zetrouer: no big deal
  73.     [17/04/2012 17:14:43] Chad Zetrouer: because none of that will ever happen
  74.     [17/04/2012 17:15:30] Chad Zetrouer: because as soon as they do it, 5 other people will put up website like ours to soak up the customers and they will have to do it again
  75.     [17/04/2012 17:15:55] garmondafydd: How do you think we should handle the money with regards to having it available for refunds?
  76.     [17/04/2012 17:15:58] Chad Zetrouer: there's a demand and it will get filled no matter what
  77.     [17/04/2012 17:16:19] garmondafydd: I just dont want to rush into anything
  78.     [17/04/2012 17:16:21] Chad Zetrouer: Bad products usually get 10% refunds
  79.     [17/04/2012 17:16:24] garmondafydd: and I cant get convinced otherwise right now
  80.     [17/04/2012 17:16:39] Chad Zetrouer: good products are usually 1-5%
  81.     [17/04/2012 17:16:43] Chad Zetrouer: ours is a good product
  82.     [17/04/2012 17:16:50] Chad Zetrouer: I expect 5% or less
  83.     [17/04/2012 17:17:00] Chad Zetrouer: but, you will get orders fasterthan refunds
  84.     [17/04/2012 17:17:18] Chad Zetrouer: for example, on my other site I get probably 20-30 order per one refund
  85.     [17/04/2012 17:17:28] Chad Zetrouer: I'm never concerned about refunds
  86.     [17/04/2012 17:17:59] Chad Zetrouer: As long as I leave enough in paypal to refund 2 or 3, I feel very safe
  87.     [17/04/2012 17:18:22] garmondafydd: Then you have nothing to be worried about, we have been very very open with our customers, been flying with them, made them feel very appreciated, not one of them has raised any concerns with our new plans, and they were actually very excited about it
  88.     [17/04/2012 17:18:33] garmondafydd: But I cant change my mind on this matter
  89.     [17/04/2012 17:19:11] garmondafydd: And we sent that email ofcourse
  90.     [17/04/2012 17:19:12] Chad Zetrouer: You are saying it as a absolute, which makes me think in a few days it will be "we need to wait another week" then "let's give it a month"
  91.     [17/04/2012 17:19:18] garmondafydd: which you should read
  92.     [17/04/2012 17:20:02] garmondafydd: look at it from my perspective, I've tried looking at it from your perspective, I understand, but i'm going to hold on to what we originally agreed on
  93.     [17/04/2012 17:20:25] Chad Zetrouer: I agreed to a few days not to a week
  94.     [17/04/2012 17:22:06] Chad Zetrouer: I understand you are worried so I will wait 2 more days, but no more.
  95.     [17/04/2012 17:22:59] garmondafydd: is that an ultimatum?
  96.     [17/04/2012 17:23:14] Chad Zetrouer: no it's not meant like that
  97.     [17/04/2012 17:23:54] Chad Zetrouer: but at the same time I'm not going to be strung along... there's no reason not to pay now and it worries me
  98.     [17/04/2012 17:24:36] Chad Zetrouer: I told you I want it to work out too, but right now I'm not even in the loop with the whole website changes.
  99.     [17/04/2012 17:24:42] Chad Zetrouer: that's very very scary to me
  100.     [17/04/2012 17:27:01] garmondafydd: I've explained everythign to you, and there's every reason not to pay right now, you aren't going to convince me otherwise, and I'm holding on to what I originally said, I am being perfectly reasonable here and I did give you my word, and I'm going to hold on to it, that is my final decision, you will get your 25%, but just not right now, and I'll make my best effort to have it sorted within 5 days like I originally said 2 days ago (when I said a week) I understand your concerns but I cant make a compramise, I'm sorry that you dont trust me right now but I gave you my word, I've never betrayed any one in my life and I dont intend to now
  101.     [17/04/2012 17:29:54] Chad Zetrouer: I don't like it at all, but I also dont see any use in fighting about it. So I will wait the week and we will make a hard date of Saturday the 21st so there's no risk or it extending forever
  102.     [17/04/2012 17:30:30] Chad Zetrouer: That's a bad compromise for me, but I'm willing to do it to keep the peace
  103.     [17/04/2012 17:30:30] garmondafydd: Isn't sunday 5 days?
  104.     [17/04/2012 17:30:39] Chad Zetrouer: the meeting was sunday
  105.     [17/04/2012 17:30:42] garmondafydd: 17+5=22 and al
  106.     [17/04/2012 17:30:44] garmondafydd: all*
  107.     [17/04/2012 17:32:02] Chad Zetrouer: I am compomising from 2 days to 6 I think thats fair
  108.     [17/04/2012 17:32:31] Chad Zetrouer: not fair to me, but good enough to put this to rest
  109.     [17/04/2012 17:33:02] garmondafydd: thank you
  110.     [17/04/2012 17:33:21] Chad Zetrouer: so the 21st then?
  111.     [17/04/2012 17:34:38] garmondafydd: Sunday
  112.     [17/04/2012 17:34:39] Chad Zetrouer: and to be very clear 25% of sales up to then... no wiggling to say "here's $100" when 25% is $1900 or whatever
  113.     [17/04/2012 17:35:50] Chad Zetrouer: Saturday... I'm going from 2 days and I've compromised more than half, you have to give something here too
  114.     [17/04/2012 17:36:28] Chad Zetrouer: otherwise it's me doing all the work to make things happen and that's not right
  115.     [17/04/2012 17:36:39] garmondafydd: are you kidding me
  116.     [17/04/2012 17:39:23] garmondafydd: apart from the work on the last few days before launch, we've been the ones that's been completely overworking our selves, the main values you brought was the idea + (and thus having us compete with your already existing business), and providing us with some cool tools, but in terms of actual work, we've been working our asses off for a while now and for the most part all of yours stemmed from 1 week worth, i think it's completely offensive to dismiss the amount of work me + duncan + willl has done
  117.     [17/04/2012 17:39:50] garmondafydd: this hasn't been just a part time thing for us, we've been putting in everything into this
  118.     [17/04/2012 17:39:59] Chad Zetrouer: my comment about work to make things happen was in regard to working toward a compromise
  119.     [17/04/2012 17:40:09] garmondafydd: right
  120.     [17/04/2012 17:40:09] garmondafydd: sorry
  121.     [17/04/2012 17:40:19] garmondafydd: that was the teenager in me
  122.     [17/04/2012 17:40:57] Chad Zetrouer: but I put in a whole lot more than 1 week on this
  123.     [17/04/2012 17:41:02] Chad Zetrouer: it's been 2 years in the making
  124.     [17/04/2012 17:41:23] Chad Zetrouer: and I know you guys busted your asses too
  125.     [17/04/2012 17:41:43] Chad Zetrouer: which is why I want to make sure everyone gets their fair share
  126.     [17/04/2012 17:57:28] Chad Zetrouer: So let's put this to rest and agree right now:
  128.     25% of all sales up to the 21st, Paid on the 21st.
  130.     Agreed?
  131.     [17/04/2012 17:57:55] garmondafydd: I'd still prefer to have the absolute deadline to be 22st but I'm fine with that
  132.     [17/04/2012 17:58:54] Chad Zetrouer: ok good, now I will feel a little better about it
  133.     [21/04/2012 17:32:33] Chad Zetrouer: Hey, it's saturday, let's get that money sent and done with
  134.     [21/04/2012 18:27:45] Chad Zetrouer: I gotta run some errands. Go ahead and send the money when you see this and I'll be back in a hour or two
  135.     [21/04/2012 20:41:13] Chad Zetrouer: I'm back, are you there?
  136.     [21/04/2012 21:39:52] Chad Zetrouer: The agreement was to send the money today, I'm getting tired of this waiting. Make sure you send it before midnight your time.
  137.     [21/04/2012 23:23:33] garmondafydd: i just got back
  138.     [21/04/2012 23:23:37] garmondafydd: well a few mins ago
  139.     [21/04/2012 23:23:41] garmondafydd: didnt we agree on sunday?
  140.     [21/04/2012 23:23:51] garmondafydd: [17/04/2012 17:57:55] garmondafydd: I'd still prefer to have the absolute deadline to be 22st but I'm fine with that
  141.     [17/04/2012 17:58:54] Chad Zetrouer: ok good, now I will feel a little better about it
  142.     [21/04/2012 23:34:35] garmondafydd: what happened to the site?
  143.     [21/04/2012 23:35:38] Chad Zetrouer: no we agreed on saturday
  144.     [21/04/2012 23:35:56] Chad Zetrouer: Chad Zetrouer: So let's put this to rest and agree right now:
  146.     25% of all sales up to the 21st, Paid on the 21st.
  148.     Agreed?
  149.     [12:58:01 PM] garmondafydd: I'd still prefer to have the absolute deadline to be 22st but I'm fine with that
  150.     [21/04/2012 23:37:37] garmondafydd: 22st is tomorrow
  151.     [21/04/2012 23:37:54] Chad Zetrouer: you said you would prefer but your were fine with it
  152.     [21/04/2012 23:38:33] garmondafydd: midnight on the 21st is a bit ridicolous and i was expecting the convo tomorrow
  153.     [21/04/2012 23:38:38] Chad Zetrouer: doesn't matter, it's a small detail and I'm not waiting until tommorow, I'm tired of stressing out about it
  154.     [21/04/2012 23:38:48] garmondafydd: and i dont really have time to talk about this today
  155.     [21/04/2012 23:38:52] Chad Zetrouer: Tired of being jerked around
  156.     [21/04/2012 23:39:51] garmondafydd: and jason says he needs to do stuff with website, IE issues + 2 ppl that wants to subscribe
  157.     [21/04/2012 23:40:24] garmondafydd: u dont need to strong arm it, i have a lot of things to do, and jason needs to do stuff too, i didnt expect you to pull out a conversation now, i'll call you tomorrow
  158.     [21/04/2012 23:40:38] garmondafydd: and ur not being jerked around, all that money is still there, no one has touched it
  159.     [21/04/2012 23:40:41] Chad Zetrouer: I trusted you with the month because I thought you would stand by your work
  160.     [21/04/2012 23:41:10] Chad Zetrouer: at this point it looks like you have cut me out of the website and your putting me off trying not to pay my share
  161.     [21/04/2012 23:41:27] Chad Zetrouer: I've been very reasonable and understanding of your fear for refunds and ccp
  162.     [21/04/2012 23:41:35] garmondafydd: no you havent ol
  163.     [21/04/2012 23:41:38] Chad Zetrouer: so I gave you more time
  164.     [21/04/2012 23:42:14] Chad Zetrouer: but the time is up now, if you don't pay I don't want to do business with someone dishonest and I can't handle the stress of it either
  165.     [21/04/2012 23:43:01] Chad Zetrouer: I've waited 4 days, stressed out because I have no control over the month. I can't wait any longer and I shouldn't have to
  166.     [21/04/2012 23:44:11] garmondafydd: can we talk on comms
  167.     [21/04/2012 23:44:28] Chad Zetrouer: no because I'm too pissed to talk right now
  168.     [21/04/2012 23:44:44] garmondafydd: then we'll talk tomorrow
  169.     [21/04/2012 23:44:54] Chad Zetrouer: the website will be down by tomorow
  170.     [21/04/2012 23:45:01] garmondafydd: what?
  171.     [21/04/2012 23:45:09] Chad Zetrouer: I'm not waiting all night stressed out about it
  172.     [21/04/2012 23:45:38] Chad Zetrouer: like I said I'm not doing business with someone that doesn't keep agreements
  173.     [21/04/2012 23:45:41] garmondafydd: Can we please get on comms so we can actually discuss this
  174.     [21/04/2012 23:46:29] garmondafydd: and if you need 5 minutes to cool down then talk thats fine
  175.     [21/04/2012 23:46:36] Chad Zetrouer: I'm not getting on comms because I am too upset
  176.     [21/04/2012 23:47:21] Chad Zetrouer: All you have to do to solve everything is pay my share like you agreed
  177.     [21/04/2012 23:47:48] Chad Zetrouer: talking on comms won't help because I may lose my temper
  178.     [21/04/2012 23:48:58] Chad Zetrouer: I have been stressed all week over this, and for no reason.
  179.     [21/04/2012 23:49:21] Chad Zetrouer: Had I put the orders on my paypay they would have been paid the next day
  180.     [21/04/2012 23:49:27] Chad Zetrouer: because that's the right thing to do
  181.     [21/04/2012 23:49:45] garmondafydd: After our last conversation, you were completely overly aggressive, I do intend to pay you your share, but your tone gave me the impression that I need to prepare, prepare for if you decided to strong arm things and threaten me with your ownership over the website, I told duncan + jason + will about the conversation and they were annoyed at me, I was very naive + stupid in our conversation. That money isn't even ours yet, we've not spent anything at all, I've not even bought microphones yet because I want to do this proper
  182.     [21/04/2012 23:51:38] garmondafydd: Anyway, you were overly aggressive and it made me worry about our position, so we have a backup website on, I legally own it, I legally own the cloud hosted there and we have the videos hosted on there, we have backed up EVERYTHING on the current website, the only difference is the URL, BUT this is just an assurance I made incase you started threatening me, I dont intend to actually use it, only as a last resort
  183.     [21/04/2012 23:51:51] garmondafydd: We're completely fine with giving you the 25% of the money
  184.     [21/04/2012 23:51:57] garmondafydd: We're not fine with 25% of every single month in the future
  185.     [21/04/2012 23:52:12] garmondafydd: We're not happy with you being aggressive and putting me in a terrible position
  186.     [21/04/2012 23:52:23] Chad Zetrouer: I own 25% of it and deserve 25% forever
  187.     [21/04/2012 23:52:37] Chad Zetrouer: at this point I see two options
  188.     [21/04/2012 23:52:39] garmondafydd: Sorry, you dont
  189.     [21/04/2012 23:52:52] garmondafydd: You have two options, and I will be very clear about this
  190.     [21/04/2012 23:52:56] Chad Zetrouer: maybe 3... 1. you pay and we try to work this out and continue on
  191.     [21/04/2012 23:53:11] Chad Zetrouer: 2. you buy me out for 6,000 now and 1,000 a month for 6 months
  192.     [21/04/2012 23:53:43] Chad Zetrouer: 3. I shut down the website and put a page up that says "EIE has been shutdown, please ask paypal to refund your money ASAP"
  193.     [21/04/2012 23:54:31] Chad Zetrouer: your second website may work out, but you will lose most your current customers, and people will be less likely to trust you in the future
  194.     [21/04/2012 23:54:50] Chad Zetrouer: the first two options are far better for everyone
  195.     [21/04/2012 23:59:36] garmondafydd: 1. You pull down the website, we email every one about our new website, we out you for the person you are, all of these chatlogs go public, and it will be so big that EVERY ONE will know about the url for our own website.
  197.     - It will go viral because this is pretty hillarious drama
  198.     - We have 5k emails, emails of all customers, we have EVERYHING backed up
  199.     - We have FB + Twitter etc.
  200.     - The ONLY thing we dont have is the original domain
  201.     - You walk away with no money, be the centre of some hillarious drama
  202.     - We walk away unscathed apart from spending another 2 days of fixing PR stuff
  204.     ^ I dont want this to happen, simply because you deserve the 25% and that we want there to be no drama, and the same domain would be cool too, and remember that the only thing you have on us is the domain name, we have everything else
  206.     2. We wait until 3 weeks from now, when month is over so money is legally ours, we give you 60% of the 25%, then you give me the authentication code for the domain and I give you the last 40% of the 25%, so the domain name is legally mine and under my full control, and we walk away with no drama no nothing, It's not best if we keep working together. It's not going to work out, and realisticly this is the best thing we can do.
  207.     [21/04/2012 23:59:59] Chad Zetrouer: what ever I'm putting up page now then
  208.     [00:00:12] Chad Zetrouer: I'm not being jerked around
  209.     [00:00:18] Chad Zetrouer: you're stealing from me
  210.     [00:00:19] garmondafydd: Read what I said again
  211.     [00:00:37] garmondafydd: can we talk about this on comms
  212.     [00:01:18] Chad Zetrouer: if you said that to me on comms I would lose my temper
  213.     [00:01:43] Chad Zetrouer: I'm trying to defend the original agreement of splitting things 4 ways
  214.     [00:01:54] Chad Zetrouer: you are trying to force me out. I have no choice
  215.     [00:01:58] garmondafydd: I've given you the options, we can discuss why we think things should go that way if you want
  216.     [00:02:48] Chad Zetrouer: I've given you the options
  217.     [00:02:59] Chad Zetrouer: neither of the options you said is even close to acceptable
  218.     [00:03:23] garmondafydd: You need to think hard on what you're going to do next
  219.     [00:05:01] garmondafydd: You shouldn't rush it and I do intend to give you your money, but for us the only options available is the two I gave
  220.     [00:08:41] Chad Zetrouer: I have no choice... I can't believe this was all for nothing
  221.     [00:13:44] garmondafydd: There's two issues we have
  223.     1. The money isn't legally mine yet, if things goes south, I wouldn't be able to refund everyone, and putting our customers in that situation would be worst thing I can think of, I've not even bought a microphone yet, I want to be able to refund every one if things go south, being coerced into agreeing to giving you the money so soon was due to me being naive and rash, I dont intend to give any money until we're in the clear in this regard
  225.     2. Being coerced + forced into giving you 25% as a result of OUR work is NOT something I am ever going to succumb to, if that was the only option, I would honestly refund every one right now and cancel this project, and even if you did stay on the team, what work would you actually put in, have you any idea how much work we do to make these videos?
  226.     [00:14:39] Chad Zetrouer: I can't do business with someone dishonest and I can't trust anything in the future now
  227.     [00:15:08] Chad Zetrouer: I would understand keeping back 10% in case of refunds no more
  228.     [00:15:24] garmondafydd: We just took some precautions incase you decided to try to force me into giving you money
  229.     [00:15:37] garmondafydd: we can have a proper conversation about this if you want
  230.     [00:16:38] garmondafydd: but it's up to you, we either have some PR to deal with, and keep 1.75k usd, or we give you 1.75k usd and we move on
  231.     [00:18:39] garmondafydd: and I can easily justify my reasoning, but bottom line is, we had a fall out and I dont think it's fair to keep giving you 25% of everything
  232.     [00:19:24] Chad Zetrouer: I don't care, I won't do business with someone dishonest.
  233.     [00:19:41] Chad Zetrouer: Last chance is to buy me out, beyone that I don't want any part of this
  234.     [00:20:18] Chad Zetrouer: I have to look after the customers and I can't be a part of this if I think they may get scammed
  235.     [00:20:26] garmondafydd: Dont do anything rash, think about it, and talk about it tomorrow, it's not good to make a rushed decision when you're upset
  236.     [00:20:41] garmondafydd: [00:20] Chad Zetrouer:
  238.     <<< I have to look after the customers and I can't be a part of this if I think they may get scammed
  239.     [00:20:42] garmondafydd: is this for real?
  240.     [00:20:59] Chad Zetrouer: I'm done thinking... creating new mail and shut down page now
  241.     [00:21:24] garmondafydd: I think we need to continue this conversation tomorrow, I'm sorry that you're upset, but I don't think you should make any rash decisions yet
  242.     [00:21:51] Chad Zetrouer: Unless I hear something the mail and shut down page go up in then next 10 minutes
  243.     [00:22:16] Chad Zetrouer: I"m not strong arming you, I have to do this to protect my self
  244.     [00:22:36] Chad Zetrouer: if you will steal from busines partners you will steal from customers
  245.     [00:22:45] garmondafydd: Are you kidding me?
  246.     [00:22:56] garmondafydd: IF you stayed on the team, what would you actually do?
  247.     [00:23:27] Chad Zetrouer: doesn't matter at this point
  248.     [00:23:38] garmondafydd: We dont agree with eachother, it would be retarded to keep giving you thousands of dollars every month
  249.     [00:23:41] Chad Zetrouer: Can't believe it came to this
  250.     [00:23:47] garmondafydd: Especially if it's due to coercion
  251.     [00:23:57] garmondafydd: be happy that you made nearly 2k bucks, with nearly no work
  252.     [00:23:59] Chad Zetrouer: I shouldn't have trusted you
  253.     [00:24:06] Chad Zetrouer: I don't have 2k
  254.     [00:24:11] garmondafydd: I shouldn't have trusted you
  255.     [00:24:13] Chad Zetrouer: at this point it looks like I have zero chance to get 2k
  256.     [00:24:16] garmondafydd: I've given you the terms for that 2k
  257.     [00:24:45] Chad Zetrouer: if I don't get the 2k now I have protect my self and the cutomers
  258.     [00:24:54] garmondafydd: how are you protecting the customers exactly
  259.     [00:25:06] Chad Zetrouer: you are wanting to wait until they can't get refunds
  260.     [00:25:11] Chad Zetrouer: that's dishonest
  261.     [00:25:29] garmondafydd: What?
  262.     [00:25:33] garmondafydd: Are you kidding me?
  263.     [00:25:40] Chad Zetrouer: and you are wanting to force me out of a business I created
  264.     [00:26:02] garmondafydd: you created?
  265.     [00:26:02] Chad Zetrouer: The best option for everyone right now is a buy out
  266.     [00:27:38] garmondafydd: and how are we being dishonest to the customers by waiting till the money is legally ours, they can get a refund in the first 30 days, after that the life time members get a prorated refund and the subs dont get the first month once the full month is over, they know this and we were clear about it, that's why it's smart to only withdraw any cash after the first month is over
  267.     [00:27:54] garmondafydd: It's dishonest to not wait a month
  268.     [00:28:40] garmondafydd: you can try to force us to recover from whatever damage you think you can do in exchange for $1750 if you feel that this money is worth it for you to try to do that to us
  269.     or we can work this out so you get $1750 and we each go our own way
  270.     either way i would urge you not to make a rash decision you might regret later
  271.     especially since you are so upset right now
  272.     [00:30:13] Chad Zetrouer: the business is worth about 70,000 dollars now based on subs and likely future orders
  273.     [00:30:16] Chad Zetrouer: I will not sell it for 1800
  274.     [00:30:35] Chad Zetrouer: like I said before it would be 6,000 now and 1,000 per month for 6 months
  275.     [00:30:52] Chad Zetrouer: most businesses sell for 24 times monthly revenue
  276.     [00:31:37] garmondafydd: The business is TOTALLY dependant on if we make content or not, WE are the business, there's NOTHING else to it
  277.     [00:32:08] garmondafydd: You need to think about this over night
  278.     [00:32:12] garmondafydd: you have those two options I gave you
  279.     [00:32:20] Chad Zetrouer: not worth discussing any more I think... I'm shutting it down now
  280.     [00:32:23] garmondafydd: there's literally no chance in hell that we'll keep giving you 25% of everything or give you 12k
  281.     [00:32:42] Chad Zetrouer: you willl lose most the money from refunds anyway
  282.     [00:33:22] Chad Zetrouer: I have a proven record of honesty within EVE... Everyone knows you troll and scam people. This will only confirm their suspicions
  283.     [00:33:37] Chad Zetrouer: the sad thing is that I thought you wouldn't scam me
  284.     [00:33:43] garmondafydd: I haven't scammed you
  285.     [00:33:47] Chad Zetrouer: yes you have
  286.     [00:33:48] garmondafydd: I'm preventing you from scamming me
  287.     [00:34:02] Chad Zetrouer: I can't scam you, I can only defend my self at this point
  288.     [00:34:16] garmondafydd: You're not giving the threat of "give me x or i'm leaving", you're "give me x or i take everything down"
  289.     [00:34:18] Chad Zetrouer: if I was to attempt to run EIE without you, that would be dishonest
  290.     [00:34:37] Chad Zetrouer: but the right thing to do is shut it down and alert the customers
  291.     [00:35:07] Chad Zetrouer: I can live without the money I have other businesses. My first concern has to be the customers
  292.     [00:35:25] garmondafydd: you've done nothing for the customers
  293.     [00:36:30] garmondafydd: I've agreed to give you the 25% under my terms, terms that will end up with you not being able to threaten me to give you anymore money
  294.     [00:37:02] Chad Zetrouer: those terms guarantee I can't get any money and I lose all ownership to a business I own
  295.     [00:37:13] *** garmondafydd created a group conversation
  296.     Show group conversation ***
  297.     [00:37:47] Chad Zetrouer: this makes me sick but it's my only option
  298.     [00:38:02] garmondafydd: You dont own this business, I do, you said it your self.
  299.     [00:38:32] garmondafydd: And you will get your money, otherwise why did we even give you option2
  300.     [00:38:43] Chad Zetrouer: I never said you own it
  301.     [00:38:46] garmondafydd: since most of the money would come before the domain exchange
  302.     [00:39:14] Chad Zetrouer: I would never sell ownership of a 70k business for 1.8k
  303.     [00:39:22] garmondafydd: You dont own the business
  304.     [00:39:26] Chad Zetrouer: yes I do
  305.     [00:39:26] garmondafydd: the only thing you own is the domain name
  306.     [00:39:41] Chad Zetrouer: I own domain name, you may have claim to videos
  307.     [00:40:01] Chad Zetrouer: which I will not use anymore... That would be dishonest
  308.     [00:40:59] garmondafydd: The most two important factors is that the paypal + aweber account is under my control and that we can communicate with our audience very easily
  309.     [00:41:08] garmondafydd: the only difference will be the domain name
  310.     [00:41:31] garmondafydd: I dont want to scam you, but you've exaggerated your right to this business, it seems you want to have the most out of it for your self with no regards for anything else
  311.     [00:39:05] Duncan Tanner: hello
  312.     [00:39:19] Duncan Tanner: seems like things have come to a head
  313.     [00:40:02] Duncan Tanner: garmon has mentioned what's happened
  314.     [00:40:05] Duncan Tanner: and i dont think this is a good environment to make decisions in with people so upset
  315.     [00:40:31] Duncan Tanner: i personally think garmon is wrong when it came to making promises that he shouldn't have made
  316.     [00:40:39] Duncan Tanner: especially ones that he couldn't keep
  317.     [00:41:23] Duncan Tanner: and now that he has to break it really reflects poorly
  318.     [00:41:24] Chad Zetrouer: Duncan... I don't want to do this... I gave all of you the chance to get paid for playing a game you love by using my hard earned business experience
  319.     [00:41:40] Duncan Tanner: the fact is that none of us have gotten paid
  320.     [00:41:40] Chad Zetrouer: now I am being forced to give up everything
  321.     [00:42:03] Chad Zetrouer: but the options provided set the stage for me to lose everything and get nothing
  322.     [00:42:17] Duncan Tanner: i see
  323.     [00:42:18] Chad Zetrouer: I did something really great for you guys by showing you this stuff
  324.     [00:42:26] Duncan Tanner: and garmon wants to pay you for your efforts
  325.     [00:42:30] Duncan Tanner: but like you said
  326.     [00:42:35] Duncan Tanner: we are too far apart
  327.     [00:42:38] Chad Zetrouer: but he wants me to give up ownership
  328.     [00:42:42] Duncan Tanner: and can't really continue to work together
  329.     [00:42:55] garmondafydd: If you think you will not get the 1.75k, is there anything we can do to guarantee that you would get it under the proposed circumstances
  330.     [00:42:56] Chad Zetrouer: I know we can't work togethor, which is why I am willing to accept being bought out
  331.     [00:42:59] Duncan Tanner: if the issue is that you dont trust that we will honour our word and give you any money
  332.     [00:43:05] garmondafydd: Just dont rush into anything yet
  333.     [00:43:06] Duncan Tanner: then we can use a 3rd party
  334.     [00:43:10] Duncan Tanner: to handle the transaction
  335.     [00:43:43] Chad Zetrouer: that would be great but that comes back to the problem of amount
  336.     [00:43:56] Duncan Tanner: ok
  337.     [00:43:59] Chad Zetrouer: Online businesses sell for 24 times monthly revenue
  338.     [00:44:19] Chad Zetrouer: 1/4 of that is alot more than 1.8k
  339.     [00:44:25] garmondafydd: Yea I think the problem here is that you're not the business, and that figure is completely irrelevant here
  340.     [00:44:38] Duncan Tanner: there is no garuntee we will continue to make money
  341.     [00:44:51] Chad Zetrouer: that's fine but my idea and my past knowledge are what I put into my 25% ownership
  342.     [00:44:53] Duncan Tanner: we have no idea how many of our subs will stay
  343.     [00:45:05] Duncan Tanner: and all our predictions of what would happen when we started
  344.     [00:45:07] Chad Zetrouer: I own 25k of it whether it makes 10 million or 10 cents
  345.     [00:45:08] Duncan Tanner: have been compeltely wrong
  346.     [00:45:20] Chad Zetrouer: *25%
  347.     [00:45:24] Duncan Tanner: ok
  348.     [00:45:29] Duncan Tanner: and right now
  349.     [00:45:30] Duncan Tanner: 25%
  350.     [00:45:30] garmondafydd: Which we're not using anymore, Chad, I'm happy with giving you 25% for the first month (which btw is a big amount and I don't think we'll ever make that much in monthly subs, to be realistic)
  351.     [00:45:32] Duncan Tanner: is 1750
  352.     [00:45:37] Duncan Tanner: and we are offering that
  353.     [00:45:45] Duncan Tanner: since the future is completely uncertain
  354.     [00:46:02] Chad Zetrouer: even if you don't do anything more, that site will earn 2-3k profit a month
  355.     [00:46:21] Chad Zetrouer: 2k x 24 / 4 = 12k
  356.     [00:46:22] garmondafydd: We're not even at 2k/month, and people would just unsub if we did nothing
  357.     [00:46:23] Duncan Tanner: if we don't do anything more we refund 30 people 180 dollars
  358.     [00:46:30] Duncan Tanner: and we lose much more than what we paid you
  359.     [00:46:30] garmondafydd: that too
  360.     [00:46:44] Duncan Tanner: if we were to give 25% of what we MADE
  361.     [00:46:49] Duncan Tanner: it would be pro-rated
  362.     [00:46:59] Duncan Tanner: so 25% x our 80 subs paying $19
  363.     [00:47:04] Duncan Tanner: we are giving you much much more
  364.     [00:47:06] Jason Foy: Chad, I have a lot of experance with websites and online subs. Even if my sites were over a year ago. But the way the very small community is at EIE, they will not make 3k/mo
  365.     [00:47:09] Duncan Tanner: we are giving you our entire captial
  366.     [00:47:12] Duncan Tanner: 25%
  367.     [00:47:14] Duncan Tanner: of everything
  368.     [00:47:19] Duncan Tanner: and stuff we have to keep delivering on
  369.     [00:47:22] Duncan Tanner: even after you've gone
  370.     [00:47:38] Chad Zetrouer: there are already about 2k a month in subs... once the 5 dollar deal goes live that will grow by 1-3k
  371.     [00:47:57] Chad Zetrouer: I deserve 25k for what I"ve down so far
  372.     [00:48:00] Duncan Tanner: 25% of 2k for this 1 month is $500
  373.     [00:48:07] Duncan Tanner: we are offering more than 3xthat
  374.     [00:48:07] Chad Zetrouer: I need more to let go of all future revenues
  375.     [00:48:12] Chad Zetrouer: the more is 12k
  376.     [00:48:27] Chad Zetrouer: 6k now and 1k a month for 6 months
  377.     [00:48:42] Jason Foy: Chad, first of all, the website has made nothing so far. Second of all, until we have the first month completed and probably 2 or 3 after that, we will not know what our average is.
  378.     [00:48:58] Chad Zetrouer: For that you get a website that will most likley earn 70,000 dollars in the next 12 months
  379.     [00:49:01] Chad Zetrouer: best deal ever offered
  380.     [00:49:08] Duncan Tanner: you've given figures like this
  381.     [00:49:13] Duncan Tanner: you quoted 500 members on day 1
  382.     [00:49:22] Duncan Tanner: we got less than 15% of that
  383.     [00:49:34] Duncan Tanner: all our projections have been totally wrong
  384.     [00:50:02] Chad Zetrouer: that is true, but it doesn't change the fact that I own 25% of a business that will make 70k in the next 12 moonths
  385.     [00:50:13] Duncan Tanner: "will make 70k in the next 12 moonths"
  386.     [00:50:15] Duncan Tanner: you cannot say this
  387.     [00:50:26] Chad Zetrouer: ok if you get NO new subs... you will make 24k
  388.     [00:50:44] garmondafydd: the other 75% is actually doing work for the website and are on the same page + is contributing for the website
  389.     [00:51:22] Duncan Tanner: the entire week since launch
  390.     [00:51:29] Duncan Tanner: we have been building a relationship with our customers
  391.     [00:51:31] Duncan Tanner: roaming with them
  392.     [00:51:33] garmondafydd: it's basically a full time job for us while you can just sit back and do nothing.
  393.     [00:51:35] Duncan Tanner: talking to them on ts
  394.     [00:51:39] Duncan Tanner: being available to them
  395.     [00:51:44] Jason Foy: Fact is, that website has not earned a dime yet, until we have the first month done, we do not have anything. Until we have several months completed in subs, we will not know the average purchase/refund of our demographic. So estimating 70,000 in a year is hopeful thinking.
  396.     [00:51:59] Chad Zetrouer: I think the best way to end this is a buy out with a 3rd part company holding funds pending transfer
  397.     [00:52:05] Chad Zetrouer: now we must agree on amount
  398.     [00:52:15] Duncan Tanner: the buy out figure will not change from $1750
  399.     [00:52:17] Chad Zetrouer: there are escrow companies out there that do all that no worries
  400.     [00:52:22] Chad Zetrouer: I can't do that
  401.     [00:52:26] Chad Zetrouer: not even close
  402.     [00:52:38] garmondafydd: It's the best that you're going to get, it's what you deserve
  403.     [00:52:39] Chad Zetrouer: I would rather end the whole thing than do that
  404.     [00:52:41] Duncan Tanner: are you able to discuss this
  405.     [00:52:44] Duncan Tanner: on voice
  406.     [00:53:02] Chad Zetrouer: I will accept 6k now and 1k per month for 3 months... that's fair
  407.     [00:54:01] garmondafydd: You do realise that the only thing we'll have to deal with is some pr stuff and different domain name right, it's not actually a huge deal for us
  408.     [00:54:04] garmondafydd: and you dont own the business
  409.     [00:54:34] garmondafydd: 1.75k for what you actually did is a good amount
  410.     [00:54:39] Duncan Tanner: the business is the content created by us
  411.     [00:54:54] Duncan Tanner: you have advised us
  412.     [00:55:00] Duncan Tanner: and given us the ideas
  413.     [00:55:08] Duncan Tanner: and for that we are offering what we think is more than fair
  414.     [00:55:14] Duncan Tanner: but to be honest
  415.     [00:55:25] Duncan Tanner: we've put in most of the work
  416.     [00:55:27] Duncan Tanner: when we started
  417.     [00:55:34] Duncan Tanner: i was told we would only do videos and nothing else
  418.     [00:55:36] Duncan Tanner: but since then
  419.     [00:55:43] Duncan Tanner: we have brought people to help you make the website
  420.     [00:55:50] Duncan Tanner: we have done all the community outreach
  421.     [00:55:53] Duncan Tanner: we have been doing roams
  422.     [00:56:00] Duncan Tanner: we have been the correspondence to all of eve
  423.     [00:56:08] Duncan Tanner: and on top of it we have been doing the videos
  424.     [00:56:15] Duncan Tanner: that is not to say you have done nothing
  425.     [00:56:27] Duncan Tanner: but for what you've done what we are offering is more than fair
  426.     [00:57:15] Duncan Tanner: i think right now there are a lot of passionate feelings going around
  427.     [00:57:27] Duncan Tanner: what would be best is if we all calmed down and thought about this and slept on it
  428.     [00:57:37] Duncan Tanner: and discussed it first thing tomorrow
  429.     [01:00:01] Chad Zetrouer: I want this to end favorably so I'm willing to accept a big loss and take 7,000 for my share of the owneship
  430.     [01:00:19] Chad Zetrouer: we can hire the escrow company and finsih it in the next day
  431.     [01:00:31] Jason Foy: No.
  432.     [01:00:35] garmondafydd: We're not negotiating, I've given you the terms, sleep on it
  433.     [01:00:42] Chad Zetrouer: beyond that I will shut it down and send the email
  434.     [01:00:45] Jason Foy: We gave you our terms
  435.     [01:00:49] Jason Foy: That is no room for refunds
  436.     [01:00:49] Chad Zetrouer: ok I'm sending it now
  437.     [01:01:38] Chad Zetrouer:
  438.     [01:02:01] Duncan Tanner: ok
  439.     [01:02:10] Duncan Tanner: what's left for us now is to recover from this
  440.     [01:02:16] Duncan Tanner: and we will not be paying you
  441.     [01:02:16] Chad Zetrouer: last offer 5k now and I want send emails to everyone
  442.     [01:02:37] garmondafydd: I gave you our terms
  443.     [01:04:25] Chad Zetrouer: so dumb... 5,000 dollars for a 70,000 dollar business.. now you will be lucky to make 10k in 12 months
  444.     [01:04:47] Chad Zetrouer: all because you didn't keep your word
  445.     [01:06:30] garmondafydd: I think you over reacted, and I think you overestimate the impact this will have
  446.     [01:07:59] Chad Zetrouer: it's not done yet and we can still go back but it doesn't look like you are interested
  447.     [01:08:05] Chad Zetrouer: I gotta finish writing the email
  448.     [01:10:43] Chad Zetrouer: guess thats a no then... I will be seeking legal action as well
  449.     [01:11:01] Chad Zetrouer: to recoup the 1.8k owed me
  450.     [01:12:15] Jason Foy: You mean the money we offered and you turned down?
  451.     [01:12:28] Chad Zetrouer: the money owed to me as agreed
  452.     [01:33:40] Chad Zetrouer: email sent... this is bad for everyone because you were gredy and dishonest garmon.
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