OBE and vegetative state

[20:01:52] <Pleeb> I'll ramble here then :p
[20:02:03] <SkyeWint> yaaaay
[20:02:08] <SkyeWint> Pleeb rambling
[20:02:10] <SkyeWint> I missed this
[20:02:10] * [J]Soleriol nods
[20:02:27] * Shireo gets comfy
[20:02:35] <Pleeb> It's not really magical psychology tulpa stuff, though I do have stuff on that subject if you want to hear it.
[20:02:43] <[J]Soleriol> I never heard it, but psh, details.
[20:03:06] <SkyeWint> I want to hear both
[20:03:08] <SkyeWint> <3
[20:03:09] <Pleeb> Right now I've just been compiling things all weekend- took my old server out, decided to update it, which hasn't been updated for about 320 days.
[20:03:10] <[J]Soleriol> Ramble on, young rambler.
[20:03:17] <SkyeWint> ooh neat
[20:03:46] <Pleeb> I also went to Chicago to visit my girlfriend the other week, and I was in the second highest tower in the city.
[20:03:52] <Pleeb> (the highest being the highest tower in the US)
[20:04:12] <Pleeb> That view was amazing...
[20:04:50] <Pleeb> Pics or it didn't happen? https://farm1.staticflickr.com/383/19434302569_63f21ebfa1_o.jpg
[20:05:09] <[J]Soleriol> [Oop, emergency happened. Bye!]
[20:05:14] <Pleeb> Be well!
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[20:05:45] <Pleeb> As for tulpas... I was talking about a bit of stuff with Kiah the other day, I'm trying to remember what I brought up.
[20:06:19] <Pleeb> Oh yeah, that seeing from an "OBE-perspective" is totally psychologically sound, and it can be explained how tulpas can do it (and how hosts, when fully switched into "tulpa mode")
[20:06:53] <Pleeb> Like, what you see through your eyes from your perspective is not what goes into your eyes.
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[20:07:20] <Shireo> oh?
[20:07:24] <Pleeb> People imagine the eyes as being like a lens on a camera, where a 1:1 image of the outside world gets projected to your brain, and that's what you see.
[20:07:30] <Pleeb> It's not actually like that at all.
[20:07:39] <Pleeb> The image that you perceive is much different than the one going in your eyes.
[20:07:58] <Chuck[Chrys]> you dont mean eyes then
[20:08:13] <Pleeb> On a truly cellular standpoint, the information hitting your retina is just shadows and light.
[20:08:14] <Chuck[Chrys]> the perception you get rather
[20:08:17] <Pleeb> And colors.
[20:08:34] <Pleeb> There's actually a disorder, I think it's called derealization disorder, you see everything from above your body.
[20:08:47] <Pleeb> And you can see your body and everything (at least what your brain believes is what your body looks like).
[20:08:54] <Pleeb> It's like you're "floating" above your body.
[20:09:11] <Pleeb> And that's because your awareness is set up there when normally, your awareness is set to the POV of your eyes, at your face.
[20:09:26] <Pleeb> Consider object processing,
[20:09:45] <Pleeb> What your brain actually does, when you see that pen on your desk,
[20:09:53] <Pleeb> Is actually put the pen on the desk, and label it in your mind as "pen."
[20:10:34] <Pleeb> If someone has the spacial ("location") area of the brain damaged,
[20:10:49] <Pleeb> They may end up seeing the pen on the other side of their desk.
[20:11:23] <Pleeb> And this has happened in one case study, there was a girl that had damage to her spacial system of the brain, the part of the brain that puts the objects in the 3d plane of your awareness.
[20:11:42] <Pleeb> It's pretty neat stuff.
[20:12:12] <Pleeb> The brain also takes shortcuts.
[20:12:28] <Pleeb> For instance, it only registers objects that it believes should be there; it does a lot of predicting.
[20:12:37] <Pleeb> But another example is your blind spot,
[20:12:51] <Pleeb> You have an area in your eye where in information is hitting.
[20:13:07] <Pleeb> But you don't see a big black spot in your field of vision; your brain fills in the details.
[20:13:35] <Pleeb> There was this one lady my professor talked about, she would be watching TV, then she moves her head, and the TV vanishes.
[20:13:48] <Pleeb> It looks like the table, with wallpaper in the background.  Like the TV turned invisible.
[20:13:54] <Pleeb> She tilts her head back, and the TV is back.
[20:14:17] <Pleeb> When she was driving, she'll see a car approaching, then the car will vanish; she could see what's behind the car and everything, it's like it became invisible, then it'd appear again when closer to her.
[20:14:43] <Pleeb> Found out that her blind spot was actually a few cells larger than normal.
[20:14:53] <Pleeb> And the brain was just filling in the information with what it believed was there.
[20:15:06] <Chuck[Chrys]> sounds like more than just a few cells?
[20:15:07] <Pleeb> Which, based on the surrounding area, was the wallpaper, landscape, etc.
[20:15:18] <Pleeb> A few cells can go a long way when we're talking about the eyes.
[20:15:33] <Pleeb> We're not talking "3", but more like "30-300"
[20:15:36] <Pleeb> But even then.
[20:15:53] <Pleeb> It's a very, very, small point in your eye where the image comes in.
[20:15:58] <Pleeb> Well, not even an image,
[20:16:23] <Pleeb> The information going in your eye is just shadows, light, colors.  Then it goes to your primary visual cortex, there's neurons that detect shadows and shapes, movements,
[20:16:29] <Pleeb> And they keep routing it up to higher and higher neurons.
[20:16:37] <Pleeb> Eventually there's neurons in your brain that detect "pen"
[20:16:47] <Pleeb> And those neurons get the information, and send "pen" higher up the line.
[20:17:01] <Pleeb> Then you have the other part of your brain in your visual system, the "where" part, it tells awareness where the pen is.
[20:17:02] <Chuck[Chrys]> aye aye abstractions
[20:17:13] <Pleeb> Then your brain creates the world around you, putting you in the center.
[20:17:24] <Chuck[Chrys]> and we already established that what enters your eye and what you perceive can be different
[20:17:27] <Pleeb> With derealization, it creates the world around you, and you're not in the center.
[20:17:31] <Pleeb> Oh yes.
[20:17:45] <Pleeb> The brain also takes a lot of shortcuts, for instance, let's see,
[20:18:25] <Pleeb> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/Red_triangle_with_thick_white_border.svg
[20:18:28] <Pleeb> Consider that image.
[20:19:08] <Pleeb> When you look at it, you see this red triangle.  But the actual information being sent to your brain is much different.  Matter of fact, every one of your cells in your eye that fall on the red center are actually turned off, not sending any information to your brain.
[20:19:19] <Pleeb> All the brain is getting is the white and red borders.
[20:19:32] <Pleeb> But when it's being processed, it just assumes that the middle is also red, and fills it in to your awareness.
[20:19:42] <Pleeb> So you "see" a red triangle.
[20:19:55] <Pleeb> When in actuality the information being sent to your brain is not just the red triangle.
[20:20:28] <Chuck[Chrys]> image compression? is tha what youre getting at?
[20:20:35] <Pleeb> That's kind of what it does, yes.
[20:20:42] <Chuck[Chrys]> ye i alrady knew that
[20:20:45] <Pleeb> The cells that are getting just red light from the middle,
[20:20:49] <Pleeb> They are just turned off.
[20:20:53] <Pleeb> They aren't sending anything to the brain.
[20:21:07] <Chuck[Chrys]> which cells tho
[20:21:13] <Pleeb> So the brain is really getting something like http://www.clker.com/cliparts/4/C/x/X/Y/a/red-triangle-md.png
[20:21:20] <Chuck[Chrys]> the detector cells cant be turned off really, im pretty sure
[20:21:31] <Pleeb> They get saturated.  Ping pong ball effect.
[20:21:38] <Pleeb> I forget the word,
[20:21:47] <Chuck[Chrys]> thats a bit different tho
[20:21:50] <Pleeb> But if they're flooded with the same light,
[20:21:55] <Pleeb> And the light around it is the same,
[20:21:58] <Pleeb> They just don't send information.
[20:22:18] <Pleeb> And only send the information from light that's got different intersects.
[20:22:26] <Pleeb> E.g. the red-white borders.
[20:22:57] <Chuck[Chrys]> or maybe youre looking at it wrong and the information theyre sending isnt actually what light they see, but only changes in it
[20:23:14] <Pleeb> The cells literally go inactive when introduced to the solid light, though.p
[20:23:17] <Pleeb> though.*
[20:23:24] <Pleeb> That is, they don't send anything.
[20:23:34] <Chuck[Chrys]> yup, no changes
[20:23:35] <Pleeb> Unless you meant something else
[20:23:56] <Pleeb> I should note, the information going to awareness could be wrong,
[20:24:00] <Pleeb> It's how optical illusions work.
[20:24:12] <Pleeb> Matter of fact, in my cogneuro class, we had this one image,
[20:24:19] <Pleeb> Of a triangle that the brain thought was solid red, but it wasn't,
[20:24:45] <Pleeb> But it was done in a way that it was so subtle, the brain didn't "notice", so you perceived it as one color.
[20:25:09] <Pleeb> And that's why optical illusions, too, are a thing.
[20:25:25] <Pleeb> But the majority of the time, you're getting the right information.  Unless you're going out of your way to skew it.
[20:25:48] <Pleeb> And for most things, esp perceptual, as long as you have two eyes, the illusions won't work.
[20:26:25] <Pleeb> But I digress.
[20:26:34] <Pleeb> For the tulpas listening,
[20:26:37] <Chuck[Chrys]> i have to say tho, this is all stuff that happend befory psychology comes into play
[20:26:45] <Chuck[Chrys]> happens*
[20:26:47] <Pleeb> Well,
[20:26:59] <Pleeb> When you start looking more into cognitive stuff,
[20:27:13] <Pleeb> A lot of it is more and more psychology becoming neurology stuff.
[20:27:18] <Pleeb> Like, it's becoming more and more married together.
[20:27:42] <Pleeb> Esp with fMRI and EEG.
[20:27:43] <Chuck[Chrys]> actually id consider this more physics and iformatics
[20:27:51] <Pleeb> Which is something else I wanted to talk about.
[20:28:13] <Pleeb> Consider object recognition itself, which is a lot to do with cognitive psychology,
[20:28:27] <Pleeb> At the end of the day, it's neural networks processing things and sending them up the line, further and further.
[20:28:44] <Pleeb> And then you can use that to figure out what objects cause certain patterns to light up in the brain,
[20:28:59] <Pleeb> And then use that to figure out what they're thinking, because if they think about that object, it'll also light up in the brain.
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[20:29:42] <Pleeb> Whoops.
[20:29:43] <Chuck[Chrys]> kek
[20:29:46] <Pleeb> (I think I just disconnected)
[20:29:51] <Pleeb> Anyways...
[20:30:31] <Pleeb> Where I was getting at, with this,
[20:30:40] <Chuck[Chrys]> it does make sense, but it doesnt explain why psychology would need to know how it all works
[20:31:33] <Pleeb> Psychology is becoming much less of a soft science than it used to be.  Tulpas, for instance; if you've read my lecture on neuroscience, I go into a good bit of support them through that,
[20:31:41] <Pleeb> Mental decay, for instance, related to the neural networks.
[20:32:12] <Pleeb> Have I mentioned about tulaps being picked up on EEG?
[20:32:21] <Chuck[Chrys]> eh... if thats the case im pretty sure the remnants of soft science will drag psychology down
[20:33:07] <Pleeb> We're getting much and much less of a soft science every year, more of a respected thing as we have the technology to start really understanding the brain more.
[20:33:21] <Pleeb> Before, it was just theories and case studies, now we can do a lot more.
[20:33:27] <Pleeb> See how thought works, at least in some way.
[20:33:55] <Pleeb> fMRI is very helpful in that regard, being able to watch the brain in real-time process information; even more with EEG.
[20:34:07] <Pleeb> Which reminds me of something really cool,
[20:34:27] <Pleeb> Finding awareness in the vegetative state.
[20:35:07] <Pleeb> Like, you know those people who are completely paralyzed and nonresponsive, denoted as being in a vegetative state?
[20:35:10] <Chuck[Chrys]> that does sound cool
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[20:35:25] <Pleeb> They did this experiment,
[20:35:33] <Chuck[Chrys]> even tho you cant be 100% sure
[20:36:08] <Pleeb> There was this person who was in an accident, was labeled as "brain dead",
[20:36:48] <Pleeb> They went to her, and said "We're going to put you in this machine, and if you can hear us, I'd like you to think about exploring your house when we give the signal."
[20:37:07] <Pleeb> So they put her in an fMRI, and asked her to think about her house.
[20:37:24] <Pleeb> And sure enough, the PPA (part of the brain that lights up when thinking about places) started lighting up.
[20:37:39] <Pleeb> They were like, "is she really able to perceive us?"
[20:38:02] <Pleeb> So they asked her this time to think about playing tennis (she was a tennis player before the accident)
[20:38:15] <Chuck[Chrys]> i was kinda expecting something a bit more sophisticated but alright
[20:38:21] <Pleeb> And the motor areas in the brain that normally light up when imagining yourself playing tennis was starting to light up.
[20:38:53] <Pleeb> So they started asking her questions, "Tennis for yes and house for no", a range of things, from her family to where she grew up, and she was answering them correctly.
[20:39:07] <Chuck[Chrys]> id be more curious for example whether memories still form or if some kind of problem solving is possible in that state
[20:39:13] <Pleeb> Eventually she recovered from this vegetative state,
[20:39:42] <Pleeb> And they asked her about those days when they did the tests, and she said that she remembers it all happening.
[20:40:28] <Pleeb> They've tried that with many other people, and they said a little over 50% of people in a vegetative state actually are fully conscious and aware.
[20:41:00] <Chuck[Chrys]> could laso be a problem with defining and recognizing vegetative state
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[20:42:18] <Pleeb> These people were determined as brain dead by the conventional definition- their body works, but they're totally unresponsive, they don't move, they don't blink, don't follow with eyes, etc.
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[20:42:54] <Pleeb> I'm actually looking for that study, I'll post it here when i get it (it's on one of my hard drives, but the first one was titled "Detecting awareness in the vegetative state" -- it started a series of studies)
[20:43:00] <Chuck[Chrys]> yeah, but what does it actually mean? could there be more than one possible cause?
[20:43:04] <Pleeb> Now, this was a few years ago.
[20:43:07] <Chuck[Chrys]> all sorts of things
[20:43:11] <Pleeb> What do you mean?
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[20:43:26] <Pleeb> All sorts of different types of brain damage can cause a vegetative state.
[20:43:39] <Pleeb> But not all brain damage is equal, and not all vegetative states are equal, of course.
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[20:43:41] <Chuck[Chrys]> im more interested in how it works
[20:43:51] <Pleeb> But the majority of the time, when someone is in a vegetative state, they usually "pull the plug"
[20:44:06] <Pleeb> The doctors say "They're dead already."
[20:44:14] <Pleeb> Or they're kept alive long enough for their organs to be harvested.
[20:44:55] <Pleeb> But I digress again...
[20:45:15] <Pleeb> Interested in how a vegetative state itself works?
[20:45:31] <Chuck[Chrys]> yes
[20:46:10] <Chuck[Chrys]> and im guessing nobody really knows
[20:48:53] <Pleeb> It can be a range of stuff; could be a stroke, could be psychological, could be brain injury or something else entirely.
[20:49:23] <Pleeb> You can read a bit about it here: http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/neurologic-disorders/coma-and-impaired-consciousness/vegetative-state-and-minimally-conscious-state
[20:49:42] <Pleeb> I should note, this person they did the study on was in a vegetative state, and it wasn't a case of Locked-in Syndrome (also discussed in here)
[20:50:41] <Pleeb> This study was a few years ago, technology, esp with EEG, has gotten better.
[20:51:11] <Chuck[Chrys]> i take that as a "yes, nobody knows"
[20:51:54] <Pleeb> There's one person at my university, her husband is in a vegetative state, but thanks to EEG, he can browse the internet, write letters, etc.
[20:52:04] <Pleeb> Have you ever heard of the Mind Mouse?
[20:52:21] <Pleeb> It works with EEG.
[20:52:27] <Chuck[Chrys]> doesnt ring a bell
[20:52:51] <Pleeb> It's based on the idea that when thinking a certain thought (such as "up"), the brain creates a unique signal that can be detected with EEG.
[20:53:13] <Pleeb> What this does, is ask the person to think "up", and becomes more and more sensitive to that "up" pattern among the rest of the noise in the brain.
[20:53:24] <Pleeb> So when the person thinks "up", the mouse cursor moves up.
[20:53:31] <Pleeb> And this technology is here, and has been around for a while.
[20:53:38] <Pleeb> It was certainly around when I started tulpa.info.
[20:53:49] <Chuck[Chrys]> i imagine that could be annoying
[20:54:03] <Chuck[Chrys]> thinking commands that is
[20:54:11] <Pleeb> For those who use it, it gets faster and easier the more they get used to it.
[20:54:33] <Pleeb> The same can be said about other tasks.  When you're learning something new, it requires conscious actions, such as typing.
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[20:54:39] <Pleeb> Eventually it becomes more automatic.
[20:55:43] <Chuck[Chrys]> funny thing, watching some videos, people using that thing usually move their head
[20:55:56] <Chuck[Chrys]> maybe that could be easier to detect than brainwaves
[20:56:10] <Pleeb> You've probably already watched this one then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EElJaltjn0
[20:56:31] <Pleeb> And yes, it's actually what Hawking uses- movements in his cheek.
[20:56:31] <Chuck[Chrys]> ye
[20:56:34] <Pleeb> Rather than his brainwaves.
[20:57:11] <Pleeb> Now, I bought my girlfriend one of these EEG cat ears last year,
[20:57:21] <Pleeb> http://www.necomimi.com/
[20:57:22] <Chuck[Chrys]> ive actually seen a pretty good TED talk thats at least semi related
[20:57:31] <Chuck[Chrys]> will try to find it
[20:57:34] <Pleeb> Alright.
[20:58:00] <Pleeb> These things are supposed to detect your state of mind and cause them to respond accordingly.
[20:58:18] <Pleeb> When she put them on, they just moved randomly, regardless.
[20:58:27] <Pleeb> When her brother put them on, they worked properly.
[20:58:41] <Pleeb> Well, her tulpa was active and thinking at that time she put them on; her brother doesn't have a tulpa.
[20:59:04] <Pleeb> And we found out that when her tulpa was sleeping/not being active, the headset was normal on her.
[20:59:26] <Chuck[Chrys]> http://www.ted.com/talks/greg_gage_how_to_control_someone_else_s_arm_with_your_brain
[21:00:05] <Pleeb> Ah yeah, I've seen that one.
[21:00:23] <Pleeb> Now, the cat ear stuff is nothing concrete.
[21:01:02] <Pleeb> But I've been thinking since back in 2012 that the tulpa thinking "up" would produce a different response in the brain than the host thinking "up".
[21:01:23] <Pleeb> Which means it might be possible for just the tulpa to train something similar to a mindmouse.
[21:01:34] <Pleeb> And it learns to just respond to the tulpa's thoughts.
[21:01:49] <Chuck[Chrys]> my question would be: does the host have to be aware of the tulpa thinking up?
[21:01:52] <Pleeb> Which can result in the tulpa being able to communicate and work through a computer system without the host's intervention whatsoever.
[21:02:22] <Pleeb> I wouldn't think so, given the tulpa is independent enough for parallel processing; that is, to be able to think about things without the host's direct attention.
[21:02:35] <Chuck[Chrys]> allegedly
[21:02:54] <Pleeb> This would be a pretty good way of testing that.
[21:03:20] <Chuck[Chrys]> if you could ensure that it wouldnt be biased
[21:03:39] <Maya> The problem with that for me, even though I have parallel processing I naturally don't have any walls against my host hearing my thoughts :p
[21:04:11] <Chuck[Chrys]> yes, thats exactly the kind of thing im talking about
[21:04:25] <Chuck[Chrys]> altough not the only possibility im sure
[21:04:28] <Pleeb> If the tulpa can think on their own, without the host, then the host could just do something else.
[21:04:37] <Pleeb> Play some solitare, or look aimlessly at something.
[21:04:47] <Maya> We've actually had this problem with a magic the gathering card where we don't know how to play it fairly
[21:05:01] <Pleeb> Tt's like the math experiments we used to do.
[21:05:03] <Pleeb> It's*
[21:05:33] <Maya> http://static.tappedout.net/mtg-cards-2/planeshift/goblin-game/goblin-game.jpg
[21:05:36] <Pleeb> Where the host would be presented with a math problem (e.g. algebra, which needs conscious thought to solve) and the host doesn't solve it.  He just looks at it for a moment, then thinks about something else.
[21:05:42] <Maya> Like we have no idea how to play this fairly
[21:05:50] <Pleeb> Then, he just waits for the tulpa to tell him the answer, since the tulpa would consciously solve it.
[21:06:29] <Chuck[Chrys]> yeah thats tricky Maya
[21:06:32] <Pleeb> It doesn't matter what the host is thinking, as long as they're not actively training and focusing on the same thing that the tulpa is doing.
[21:06:40] <Maya> The issue with that test for us is that neither of us can solve a math problem without being actively able to see the numbers, pleeb
[21:07:11] <Pleeb> Try to practice writing it out in your wonderland on a sketchpad, just you.
[21:07:23] <Maya> We don't have the persistence for such a thing :p
[21:07:25] <Pleeb> Something for you to focus on, the brain has a lot of resources.
[21:07:37] <Pleeb> practice on*
[21:07:55] <Pleeb> Everyone's got it, just some people have to work harder than others, but at the end of the day, it comes down to practice.
[21:08:08] <Maya> Right, hehe
[21:08:09] <Pleeb> A couple years ago, my visualization was as vivid as a lucid dream.
[21:08:24] <Pleeb> Even touch.
[21:08:30] <Pleeb> But that wasn't always the case, and it's not the case anymore.
[21:08:35] <Maya> We've always had the problem where our dreams aren't even that vivid :3
[21:08:53] <Pleeb> But it was because of those dang guides from FAQMan.
[21:09:01] <Pleeb> 2 hour long forcing sessions 3 times a day.
[21:09:04] <Pleeb> That'll certainly do it.
[21:09:08] <Pleeb> Even after a week.
[21:09:19] <Maya> We are far too add for that lol
[21:09:31] <Maya> I exist on passive stuff and 5 minute sessions
[21:09:40] <Pleeb> Believe it or not, meditation helps a lot with ADD/ADHD.
[21:10:03] <Pleeb> I've found people with ADD/ADHD to have alot of success with long term forcing, even if it's difficult initially.
[21:10:03] <Maya> And we do some of that!
[21:10:15] <Pleeb> Mindfulness is very helpful, if you meditate.
[21:12:53] <Maya> Elaborate :p
[21:15:31] <Pleeb> There's been quite a few studies on meditation and its cognitive benefits (primer http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/how-to-meditate )- give me just a moment to find an actual study with a nice table.
[21:16:21] <Pleeb> Here we are: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004979/
[21:16:41] <Pleeb> And here's even a study on which parts of your brain grow denser with different techniques http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3004979/table/T1/
[21:17:02] <Chuck[Chrys]> there was also one slightly worrying study
[21:17:08] <Chuck[Chrys]> http://www.nature.com/news/first-results-from-psychology-s-largest-reproducibility-test-1.17433
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[21:19:17] <Pleeb> Yeah, there's quite a bit of studies (including landmark studies!!!) that haven't had success in replication.
[21:19:52] <Pleeb> But like I said, we're becoming less soft, but we're not hard like chemistry.
[21:20:31] <Chuck[Chrys]> there are pills for that XD
[21:20:32] <Pleeb> Plus, sometimes the pool of users is 3 people who happen to be psych undergrads.
[21:20:44] <Pleeb> pool of users, I mean the sample population.p
[21:20:51] <Maya> Well the issue with pills is that they're not always on :p
[21:21:01] <Maya> Like add pills work for like 6 hours a day
[21:21:25] <Chuck[Chrys]> i think the kind of pills i meant works long enough
[21:21:58] <Chuck[Chrys]> and if it works more than... what 6 hours? you should seek a doctor
[21:22:19] <Chuck[Chrys]> or was it 8
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[21:23:51] <Pleeb> On an unrelated note, I want to go Norway https://imgur.com/gallery/hhSWR