(12:58:29 PM) timeshifter: start game > pause, skim the map, decide if it's workable
(12:58:42 PM) timeshifter: while paused, position UI elements, because they don't remember where they were, and that kinda bugs me
(12:59:14 PM) timeshifter: while paused, put down 6 wooden houses, a woodcutter, a gatherer, and a hunter
(12:59:23 PM) sideup66: lol
(12:59:25 PM) timeshifter: the gatherer and hunter should be next to each other, but have no other buildings in their range
(12:59:29 PM) sideup66: oh well gotta get done
(12:59:34 PM) sideup66: ill talk to you peeps later
(12:59:43 PM) sideup66 left the room (quit: Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
(12:59:51 PM) timeshifter: set half your laborers to builders, then clear out just enough resources to build everything
(1:00:35 PM) timeshifter: then a blacksmith, a tailor, and a schoolhouse
(1:00:56 PM) timeshifter: 6 more houses, a few farms, and then you just wait
(1:01:31 PM) timeshifter: the waiting is so you can start to gain an educated workforce
(1:01:37 PM) timeshifter: which are much more efficient than non-educated
(1:01:59 PM) timeshifter: woodcutter will require logs, so a forester is a good idea
(1:02:20 PM) timeshifter: blacksmith will need logs and iron, which you'll be able to harvest from the map for quite a while
(1:02:40 PM) timeshifter: everything else is self-sustaining for low populations
(1:02:56 PM) timeshifter: then it's just a matter of balanced building
(1:03:51 PM) dogetime: Hmm
(1:04:00 PM) timeshifter: http://www.twitch.tv/timeshifter08/b/542996212
(1:04:00 PM) dogetime: Yeah I didn't do that
(1:04:01 PM) rapidbot: Title: timeshifter08 - The Urban Challenge - Twitch (at www.twitch.tv)
(1:04:26 PM) dogetime: Thanks though, I'll give it a shot and start a new town
(1:04:41 PM) timeshifter: i started this town in much the same way
(1:05:05 PM) timeshifter: the main difference being, after i had that baseline economy going, i went all-out towards trade
(1:05:30 PM) dogetime: I run out of resources really fast
(1:05:38 PM) timeshifter: that's why you gotta collect more
(1:05:54 PM) timeshifter: i mean, you start with a map literally covered in logs, iron, and stone
(1:05:55 PM) timeshifter: lol
(1:06:14 PM) dogetime: lol
(1:06:25 PM) dogetime: Takes my people ages to collect them it seems
(1:06:38 PM) timeshifter: educated people work faster, people with tools work faster
(1:06:58 PM) timeshifter: at least your initial group of adults are all educated
(1:07:01 PM) timeshifter: and have tools
(1:07:03 PM) dogetime: I don't have educated people in my towns
(1:07:08 PM) dogetime: I have a blacksmith though
(1:07:19 PM) timeshifter: well, that's what you need a schoolhouse for
(1:07:28 PM) dogetime: Noted
(1:07:31 PM) timeshifter: but like i said, the starting group you get *are* educated
(1:07:57 PM) dogetime: Everyone kept starving, I fixed that but then ended up with 6500 food for 20 people lol
(1:07:58 PM) timeshifter: and you probably want to low-pop stabilize before building a schoolhouse, as it effectively adds 7 years to a child being a child
(1:08:12 PM) timeshifter: better to have too much food
(1:08:13 PM) timeshifter: lol
(1:08:26 PM) timeshifter: i have no idea how much food my town of 850 eats in a year
(1:08:36 PM) timeshifter: but i'm not comfortable with a stockpile of only 40k
(1:08:40 PM) dogetime: I guess, I was going to sell it but the merchants don't come often and they bring useless things anyway
(1:08:47 PM) timeshifter: orders
(1:09:13 PM) timeshifter: custom ordering from a merchant will get him to come more often, and always carry at least one thing that you ordered
(1:09:22 PM) timeshifter: i don't have any trading posts with more than 2 items ordered
(1:09:30 PM) timeshifter: but every trading post has ordered logs from the resource merchang
(1:09:32 PM) timeshifter: merchant
(1:09:40 PM) dogetime: They are limited though? Like it will give me the choice to buy different fruit seeds
(1:09:52 PM) timeshifter: you can only buy what a trader brings
(1:09:57 PM) timeshifter: but you can place an order for them to bring something next time
(1:10:07 PM) timeshifter: that's the only reason trade empires can even function
(1:10:15 PM) dogetime: I need a better variety of traders
(1:10:24 PM) timeshifter: not a year goes by that i don't get at least three shipments of logs
(1:10:44 PM) timeshifter: and they're usually in batches of 1k-4k at a time with my current pop
(1:10:50 PM) dogetime: In 10 years I bought a cow
(1:11:11 PM) timeshifter: the main issue with trade empires is that you need to have something to trade, too
(1:11:22 PM) timeshifter: which is why most trade-based maps have ridiculous firewood production
(1:11:23 PM) dogetime: Wood seems a good one
(1:11:36 PM) timeshifter: an educated worker makes 4 firewood out of 1 log
(1:11:42 PM) timeshifter: log costs 2, firewood costs 4
(1:11:46 PM) timeshifter: 2 equals 16
(1:12:13 PM) timeshifter: fruit and veggies each cost 1
(1:12:22 PM) timeshifter: all of my trading posts can stock 2k firewood at a time
(1:12:27 PM) timeshifter: yeah, my log turnover is *that* fast
(1:12:27 PM) timeshifter: lol
(1:12:45 PM) dogetime: So education and trading are what was lacking in my town hence why they all die lol
(1:12:46 PM) timeshifter: but that means best case, each trading post gets me 8k food per year
(1:12:54 PM) timeshifter: no, trading isn't essential
(1:13:11 PM) timeshifter: there's an achievement for reaching a certain population level and holding it without building any trading posts
(1:13:30 PM) timeshifter: trading becomes extremely helpful, and if you want to add more home-grown variety, yes, you will need them
(1:13:36 PM) timeshifter: as they're the only way to acquire livestock and seeds
(1:14:05 PM) timeshifter: but it's absolutely possible to build a thriving, mostly self-sufficient town
(1:14:22 PM) timeshifter: quarries will take up a big chunk of space, and the resulting pit can't be removed, so you're stuck with that
(1:14:33 PM) dogetime: I built one of those
(1:14:35 PM) dogetime: and a mine
(1:14:36 PM) timeshifter: mines don't use *much* buildable space
(1:14:46 PM) timeshifter: but both are probably the most dangerous occupations in the game
(1:14:49 PM) timeshifter: people will die
(1:14:55 PM) dogetime: They don't seem to produce much
(1:14:59 PM) dogetime: Well for me
(1:14:59 PM) timeshifter: and that
(1:15:08 PM) timeshifter: they're low-producing unless you can fully staff them
(1:15:18 PM) timeshifter: and even then, they still don't produce a whole ton
(1:15:27 PM) dogetime: With a population of 20 they're 1 each
(1:15:30 PM) timeshifter: but iron will be the only issue for "self sustaining"
(1:15:33 PM) dogetime: I tried to expand it too fast
(1:15:38 PM) timeshifter: stone, you stop needing once you've "finished" building
(1:15:46 PM) timeshifter: although stone roads > dirt roads, so keep that in mind
(1:16:00 PM) timeshifter: at one point last night, i started a MASSIVE road upgrade
(1:16:04 PM) timeshifter: repaved literally everything
(1:16:17 PM) dogetime: I just use stone for everything
(1:16:27 PM) dogetime: Probably why I run out lol
(1:16:29 PM) timeshifter: there are two reasons to not do that
(1:16:36 PM) timeshifter: 1) you need stone for other, important buildings
(1:16:40 PM) timeshifter: such as, all of them
(1:16:52 PM) timeshifter: 2) to build a stone road, somebody has to go actually collect that stone first
(1:17:02 PM) timeshifter: which means it's a lot slower building
(1:17:21 PM) timeshifter: when i started my repavement, i had like 150+ laborers
(1:17:22 PM) timeshifter: lol
(1:17:33 PM) timeshifter: it was just this huge "alright, everyone go build roads now" thing
(1:17:38 PM) dogetime: Education, trading and not stone roads
(1:17:44 PM) dogetime: Taking notes
(1:18:18 PM) timeshifter: woodcutter, gatherer, hunter, blacksmith, schoolhouse, forester, tailor
(1:18:24 PM) timeshifter: i think would be the right order
(1:18:31 PM) timeshifter: actually
(1:18:35 PM) timeshifter: woodcutter goes 3rd
(1:18:57 PM) timeshifter: oh yeah, and herbalist
(1:19:02 PM) timeshifter: but that can go last
(1:19:15 PM) dogetime: I had all of those except the schoolhouse
(1:19:26 PM) timeshifter: well yeah, that's pretty much everything essential
(1:19:26 PM) timeshifter: lol
(1:19:29 PM) timeshifter: it's the order and timing
(1:20:00 PM) dogetime: I'm still getting the hang of that
(1:20:07 PM) dogetime: I've not played it for that long
(1:20:12 PM) timeshifter: building a schoolhouse right away isn't the smartest idea, because that's an extra 7 person-years you have to wait before you get laborers
(1:20:17 PM) timeshifter: which is 1.5-2 game years
(1:20:39 PM) timeshifter: so you let the first wave of kids become uneducated laborers, just to *have* laborers
(1:22:19 PM) dogetime: That 8 hour stream, that's non stop?
(1:22:24 PM) timeshifter: yyyyep
(1:22:28 PM) dogetime: Dedication
(1:22:33 PM) timeshifter: i had nothing else to do yesterday
(1:22:34 PM) timeshifter: lol
(1:22:58 PM) dogetime: Fair enough
(1:23:03 PM) earlz: 13 hours away from FRAC halvening
(1:23:57 PM) timeshifter: you can see how obsessive i tend to be about trading posts, lol
(1:24:09 PM) timeshifter: 5 different merchants can visit each post
(1:24:18 PM) timeshifter: and as far as i can tell, they're entirely unique
(1:24:37 PM) timeshifter: so, for maximum firewood output, i need to catch the resource merchant at *every* single post
(1:25:37 PM) timeshifter: looks like the major population boom starts about halfway through
(1:26:00 PM) dogetime: More trading posts seems to be beneficial then, noted
(1:26:19 PM) timeshifter: in general, i'd say yes, but there are things to keep in mind
(1:26:36 PM) timeshifter: every trading post needs to actually be manned in order to move materials around
(1:26:49 PM) timeshifter: and goods that are in trading posts don't get used by the town
(1:27:14 PM) timeshifter: so if you're at stage 1 trading, and you've set your post to stockpile 500 firewood
(1:27:23 PM) timeshifter: that's about 500 firewood that will get sniped from your citizens
(1:28:47 PM) timeshifter: the reason i'm able to roll with 35 trading posts, 7 of which take 3k firewood and the rest take 2k
(1:29:09 PM) timeshifter: is because they're all buying logs first whenever they see them, and i have like 100 woodcutters
(1:29:25 PM) timeshifter: so i'm at the 20k production limit more often than not
(1:30:29 PM) timeshifter: just for building materials purposes, i might even lean in the direction of growing fruit and making ale to sell
(1:30:49 PM) timeshifter: having maybe 3 trading posts, each with orders for stone and iron placed with the resource and general goods merchants
(1:31:18 PM) timeshifter: that way, each post has a 2/5 chance of providing *something* you want every year
(1:32:01 PM) dogetime: Become self sufficient then add more then
(1:32:12 PM) timeshifter: gotta have something to start with
(1:32:33 PM) timeshifter: you're not going to succeed if you go trade-first, all-out
(1:33:04 PM) timeshifter: it takes too much material to build, and then too long to get the first trader to show up, much less one carrying what you need
(1:33:48 PM) timeshifter: if memory serves, once i achieved a <50 pop stability, i quickly built 3 posts, 2 for resources and 1 for food
(1:34:07 PM) timeshifter: sat on that for a while, just to let traders come and go, so i could get the orders i needed placed
(1:34:28 PM) timeshifter: a bit of balancing that with my firewood production, and building escalated
(1:34:51 PM) timeshifter: little growth spurts when i see that i have the food to sustain it
(1:35:23 PM) timeshifter: i just really hope i haven't over-stretched this town
(1:35:36 PM) timeshifter: running out of food right now would be reeeeeally bad
(1:35:57 PM) timeshifter: or maybe not that bad, because i've got a huge fuel reserve and 28 trading posts buying food
(1:36:16 PM) timeshifter: also, you might have noticed my occasional specifying of which merchants which posts buy from
(1:36:31 PM) dogetime: 28 trading posts....
(1:36:39 PM) timeshifter: general goods merchants can bring *anything*, resource merchants only bring material stuffs
(1:36:53 PM) timeshifter: so the 7 posts i have buying just resources have custom orders with the general goods merchants too
(1:37:01 PM) timeshifter: twice as likely to be able to make a purchase each year
(1:37:09 PM) timeshifter: the 28 food posts, however, only place orders with the resource merchant
(1:37:17 PM) timeshifter: because the general goods merchant *will* bring food
(1:37:33 PM) timeshifter: hence, i double their chances of buying food
(1:37:51 PM) timeshifter: and there's still a 1 in 5 chance that they get a resource merchant, buy logs, and help keep the whole thing moving
(1:38:13 PM) timeshifter: so 7 posts have a 2/5 chance of buying each year, 28 posts have a 3/5 chance
(1:38:18 PM) timeshifter: maximum efficiency
(1:38:46 PM) timeshifter: i would add food to the resource merchants too, but they deal in larger quantities, which occasionally can get out of hand
(1:39:01 PM) timeshifter: so my resource posts buy *only* resources
(1:39:08 PM) timeshifter: food posts buy food and logs only