Solo Therion Route v2.1 (Lone Traveler)

Lone Therion Route Notes

Last Updated: Feb 22, 2022
Contact: AnimeGamer#1297 on Discord if you'd like to reach me
Status: Complete with sample run. Improvements section at end of this route guide, denoting potential timesaves, but this route is complete and should match the sample run video linked just below.

Sample Run: https://youtu.be/VGg-50tTaIg (or https://youtu.be/DHgUSeW4jEE for the commentated version with explanations)

This is a route for a Therion Lone Traveler Speedrun, if doing the challenge run or achievement for Octopath Traveler (alternate route with Inferno gives a much freer Darius while Fire Amulet route removes all 3% except the story-based one in C4 in exchange for a very sizeable timeloss).

The goal of this run is to defeat Darius and complete Therion's story without recruiting other travelers. The cap for this route is probably around a 1h5-7m run or so, but that would take a lot of grinding with just about everything going in the runner's favor. 1h10m-1h15m is more reasonable for a Cait time, though Caitless would probably lose about 10-15 minutes.

Changes compared to the old solo Therion route include routing out Grandport, Goldshore, Victor's Hollow, Stonegard, all Nourishing M nuts, Fire/Inferno Amulets, and some other aspects in exchange for a now-mandatory 3% Empowering Necklace steal and other changes, like doing Kit's quest and such. Menus and battles are also simplified. If you do not like doing the 3% EN steal, you can opt for the old route and use its Fire Amulet which does not need any extra 3%s, but the mandatory C4 steal of course remains 3% in all routes. Another huge difference is using the AI Loop Glitch in this route to defeat Darius, saving resources and making his second half much more consistent/freer (though the first half is harder in exchange).

This run does NOT require a Cait, but it is routed around one. If you want to try this Caitless, simply follow the Non-Cait variant section in the beginning. If you do want to grind a Cait, there should be a higher than 20% chance across all the encounters to the Scholar Shrine, so it isn't actually too bad compared to some other traveler's Cait grinds.

Notation:
TP = Teleport
C = Chapter
x2,x3,x4 = boost with 1 BP, 2 BP, or the max 3 BP respectively. x1 is not used but would be 0 BP and a normal move.
S+Q = Save and Quit and reenter the game to reset/reload the encounter rate
Reload/Reset = usually exit and reenter a screen to reset the encounter rate
Buffer Glitch = use the Buffer Glitch to gain access to an item or area - see https://youtu.be/0XlAM3mTu0Q [NS/PC/XB]

Settings/Technical Things (recommended, but you can play how you want):
- Japanese Audio
- Message Speed Quick
- Revert to Original (Battle Cursor Position)
- Preload Before a Run (Start a new game with any character and exit to the menu, since the first load is slowest)
- Note that loading games directly from console is usually faster than loading from an SD/memory card
- Always Hold B to Skip Cutscenes, unless the textbox/scene is so short that it's faster to mash (Ex: usually 1-2 textbox scenes)
- Prepare Buffer glitch beforehand if you need setup/practice (again, see https://youtu.be/0XlAM3mTu0Q if you need explanation/instructions).

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Non-Cait Changes to Remember (tested to work, slower by a few minutes at least, though not too much slower)
You should still reference the notes way below but just keep in mind these differences:

Here's a noncait reference video: https://youtu.be/gbO__7QSiyo (rough run but a decent enough reference, 1h39m26s approximately)

This is based on Doid#5819's ideas for Non-Cait Therion (credit to them).
- Do the below route as normal, but after Derelict, TP to Bolderfall and run towards Wellspring instead of the Scholar Shrine.
- Use Wind L to defeat the encounter in the map outside Wellspring [may need to walk a bit depending on how soon you get the encounter] and save at the save point outside, in case of a wipe.
- Tag Wellspring, get Fire L in the south of Wellspring in the Therion 3 area
- TP Bolderfall, run to Scholar shrine and use Fire L to defeat the Scholar shrine encounter. Those 2 static encounters together will put you over 130 JP, which is all you need for Evasive Manuevers
- Follow the below route, doing Oasis Hat steal outside Noblecourt, tagging Noblecourt, and Forest of Purgation as usual
- TP Wellspring and run outside and down a map to grab the Thunder L in the left center of the map. TP Wellspring. Use this Thunder L in place of the Fire L later in this route.
- Go to Northreach still and get Empower Necklace steal for the Tomb of Kings grind (get 30k in Maw of Ice Dragon before going to HHB x2 + L Stone on Lizards still, then tag Northreach and do Empower Necklace steal).
- Optionally delay your steals in C2 until after you do Tomb of Kings for the levels and higher % chance.
- When you do Tomb of Kings later, grind a bit extra to hit the thresholds required: [Level 20, EXP 202/535, JP 1,473]
- Otherwise, see the below route and follow it for the most part.
[Alternatives to this early Wellspring start are to grind on the way to Atlasdam area, do Whistlewood, and/or do Derelict (for the Fire Elemental encounter which falls to the Wind L) for the 130+ JP, and then try to Flee or walk to skip the Scholar Shrine encounter. You always need to grind a bit extra in Tomb of Kings later though.]

Extra notes for Noncait (recs/guidelines), assuming you did the Wellspring Wind L/Fire L strat for EM:
- Steal Grape M's and Plum M's in early Bolderfall right before the Nourish Nut, for safety
- Get and equip Tempest Amulet from Marsalim Palace for early ToK (may optionally buy a few extra Grape M/Plum M's)
- Do Tomb of Kings early (Bolderfall->Wellspring->Scholar/Noblecourt/FoP->Wellspring/Marsalim->Wellspring/Merchant->Wellspring/Everhold Tunnels [get Light L outside]->Bolderfall into Northreach->Wellspring/Tomb of King grind for near level 20)
- in early Tomb of King, use either Merchant early and do HHM->M Stone for Sentinels OR use Scholar and LB's and also use L Stones more willingly and use all if needed, get Endless Items with Hired Help+Sidestep asap and put it on, and when you run out of L Stones, switch to Merchant and use HHMx2 to break sentinels and nuke with M Stones (M stones will not defeat the Sentinels with Scholar setup).
- Steal L Stone from Gravekeeper at level 20 if possible but level 17+ if needed (no rep resets needed, infinite tries in here), maintain at least 1 Light L for C4
- assuming you learned Blizzard, Lightning Blast, Hired Help, and Sidestep, you need to leave with 1480 JP (with this much JP, after we get JP from C2+C3+C4 pre-Darius battles, we'll have enough for all the Support Skills we need) and level 20 + 202 EXP
- tl;dr leave ToK with [Lvl 20, 202 exp, 1480 JP]
- after ToK, go to Runeblade (get 8k pouch outside) to S+Q for 50k + Rev Jam, then Noblecourt to do most of C2
- in Noblecourt, optionally steal Empowering Ring for Gareth (can help sometimes), and should steal at least 1 Pom M from Gravekeeper if not both
- for later Reptalios and other random encounters, Flee/Break+Flee
- for C3 pre-boss battle, Job Scholar+Knowledge Staff then LB-> LB x3 and Merchant before Gareth
- for C4 pre-boss battle, Job Scholar+Knowledge Staff then LBx2-> LB-> Light L (I am unsure if LB -> LB x3 -> Light L would overdamage too early) and Merchant before Darius
- MAKE SURE to always recheck your equips properly i.e. always equip Knowledge Staff when jobbing to Scholar
- and don't toss Fire L or Shad stones while you have Forbidden Dagger equipped
- get Hang Tough before Gareth and if possible, before Orlick is helpful too
- equip Enchanted Circlet, Conscious Stone, Empowering Necklace, and Forbidden Dagger (so all is like usual) for Darius, AI Loop him and backup Collect 30k or steal Red Apple if needed/desired

The rest of the run should be mostly the same/normal.)

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Do Therion 1
Grab Iron Helm next to mansion before triggering cutscene
Steal 4 Small Stones

Buy Arcane Knife, "No" to equipping
Equip + Optimize (this puts on Helm at same time)
Flee/Break encounters (dagger/sword to break before Fleeing or Flee if double)
I like to walk the manse a bit to try and skip the third encounter

Heathcote:
T1-4: Small SoulStone
T5: Wildfire x4
T6: Wildfire
T7: Wildfire x4 (rare range to miss but can dagger to finish; note you can wipe to bad turn RNG/attacks FYI)

Before leaving:
Steal Nourishing Nut

Do Kit quest

Run to Quarrycrest mine area toward Derelict Mine.
In map beforehand, run halfway across bridge then walk to and Save at Save Point
Run into encounter and try to Flee

Go into Quarrycrest Mine.
ONLY WALK - get Wind L and purple chest (Conscious Stone)
Save on the way after Wind L
Walk tight and efficiently (medium chance of encounter)
TP Bolderfall.

Run to Scholar Shrine/Noblecourt
Along the way, use Nourishing Nut (Item, tab down to provisions) and Healing Grape if damaged enough
Get Cait and KO with Wind L
Should be level 14 with 5 exp and 165-180 JP (depends if you got 1TKO bonus and not caught by surprise)

Go to Scholar shrine (walk the map before to avoid encounter or Flee if you get it)
Job Scholar + Blizzard + Lightning Blast
Evasive Maneuvers ON

Steal Oasis Hat from tent guy

Tag Noblecourt, start Therion 2, leave
Grab Light M, go straight left then up.

Go to Forest of Purgation
Grab Light L
Grab Forbidden Dagger
Grab 20k chest
[tiny chance for encounter, move efficiently]

TP Bolderfall
Exit toward Wellspring area

Get Dancer Shrine
Exit and reset downward

Tag Wellspring
Go to southern map and get Fire L

TP Wellspring
Exit and go toward West Stonegard Pass

S+Q/Flee at Moonstruck Coast
Get Merchant Shrine

Job Merchant + Hired Help

TP Bolderfall
Go past East Victors Hollow and Western Snowstill screens

Go to Maw of the Ice Dragon
Get 30k, exit

HH Bandits x 2 + Fire L on Reptalios

Job Merchant + Sidestep + Endless Items ON

Tag Northreach
Steal Empowering Necklace (3%)
Rep reset as needed for 1k each [I recommend counting aloud 1->5 tries each time; also get Master's Longbow]
If you fail 10k+, reload screen

TP Noblecourt
Go to top left (triggers cutscene)
Go to tavern (triggers cutscene again)

Reenter tavern and steal Shadow M (use this in ToK grind later)

Exit and go to Aspiring Actor down the steps
Steal Chakra Band (100%, Elem. Atk +38)

TP Wellspring
Go toward East Marsalim Sands
Get 20k + Thunder L
Enter Marsalim Catacombs

Get Rev Jam
Get Master's Spear (via buffer glitch)
Boss reset on left side
Get Viper Dagger
Exit

Tag Marsalim
Buy
- 21 Grape M
- 11 Plum

Get 3 palace chests (25k + Enchanted Cirlet + High House Armor)

TP Wellspring
Go toward Everhold area

Use Light L on encounter

Enter West Everhold area

Get Silver-Filled Pouch (straight down, can optionally save on way to Tunnels due to low encounter chance)

Enter Everhold Tunnels
Get Pom L + boss reset
Get 35k + boss reset
Get Knowledge Staff + boss
Get Death Cleaver

TP Noblecourt

Job Scholar
Equip + Optimize
- Empowering Necklace on
- Conscious Stone on
- Chakra Band over Oasis Hat
- Viper Dagger over Forbidden Dagger

Heal HP + SP

Exit Noblecourt
Go straight left (up a little then down a little)
Enter Hollow Throne

If bird + sheep encounter: Light M -> LB x2 (Light M first increases chance it grooms)

In Hollow Throne:
Get Pom L
Get Rev Jam

TP Wellspring
Right before entering Tomb of Kings, menu:
- Evasive Maneuvers OFF
- Heal HP + SP [1750+ HP and 44+ SP at all times]

Enter Tomb of Kings (ToK) and grind encounters for
- Level 20
- EXP 202/535
- JP 1,473

At level 15:
- 2 Light Guardians and 2 Light Sentinels: LB -> Defend -> LB x4
- 5 Light Sentinels: LB -> Defend -> LB x4
- 2 Wind Guardians and 2 Wind Sentinels: LB -> LB x3
- 2 Wind Guardians and 1 Wind Remnant -> LB -> LB x3. If Wind Remnant still alive, can Steal M Stone before Sword->Dagger to defeat
- 5 Wind Sentinels: LB x2 -> Fireball
- Thief I: Defend -> LB x3
- Thief II: Defend -> LB x3
- Cait/Cultured Cait: easily defeat both at L15 with T1 LB x2 then depends on other enemies
[check EXP/JP at battle end screen's bar constantly]
- want to leave with 1 Fire L and 1 Thunder L at minimum, rest can be used freely

Heal to
- 1750+ HP
- 44+ SP
after battles if you do not level up. (Average damage is about 230 from magic and about 130 from normal hits.)

Loot in this order:
- Fire L
- Curious Antique
- 9400
Optional Loot:
- Bright Stone (sells for 1800)
- Hasty Helm (sells for 1500)
[If you get enough EXP/JP from early Caits, you can opt to leave early + skip optionals as it is 3k per Cait/Cultured Cait too]
[Grind near entrance if you looted everything already, until you hit the numbers needed (Level 20, 202 EXP, 1473 JP).]

Reasoning for these Goals (skip this mini-section if you do not care why we are doing this ToK grind):
- Total JP Needed in Whole Run: (1630 JP Hang Tough, 630 JP Eye for Eye, 130 JP Steal SP+Armor Corrosive, 130 JP Evasive Manuevers)
- Total JP Needed in Whole Run: 2520 JP
- Total EXP Needed for Level 23 steals by C4 Lorn: 5,070 EXP
Mandatory Battles JP:
- Mandatory Battles JP: (Orlick + C3pre-boss w/ Domination + Gareth + C4 pre-boss)
- Mandatory Battles JP: 60 + (74 + 7) + 500 + 146 JP
- Mandatory Battles JP: 787 JP
- We also already have 130 JP used on EM and 130 JP used on EI
- So we have/will get: 787 + 130 + 130
- So we have/will get: 1047
Mandatory Battles EXP:
- Mandatory Battles EXP: (Orlick w/ break + C3pre-boss + Gareth w/ break + C4 pre-boss)
- Mandatory Battles EXP: (110 + 11) + 110 + (750 + 75) + 475 EXP
- Mandatory Battles EXP: 1531 EXP
Thus we need:
- JP Needed: 2520 JP - 1047 JP
- JP Needed: 1473 JP
- EXP Needed: (5,070 total EXP to hit level 23) - (1542)
- EXP Needed: 5,070 - 1531
- EXP Needed: 3539
- [With 3337 EXP, you level up past level 19 into level 20, and 3539 - 3337 = 202 EXP]
- Thus, we need equivalent to level 20 + 202 EXP + 1473 JP

After you hit these numbers, you are done: [I've thoroughly tested these numbers to be accurate and exact based on later battles.]
- Level 20
- EXP 202/535
- JP 1,473

Put Evasive Maneuvers back on

Exit toward West Everhold Pass
Get Light L

Enter Runeblade Shrine
S+Q on right side of Save Point
Get 50k + Rev Jam

TP Noblecourt [Rep resets are 2.5k, can afford twice or reload save]

Go to bottom right house (triggers cutscene)
Steal Oasis Water (80% at level 20) in center square

Talk to Barham to turn in 1st item (triggers cutscene)
Go to right screen and then to top-right
Steal Wyvern Scale (80% at level 20)

Talk to Barham to turn in 2nd item (triggers cutscene)
Steal Crystal Ore (65% at level 20, 80% at level 21)
Talk to Barham again to turn in 3rd item

Steal Heavy Blade from Left Guard after Orlick's Manse cutscene [skip it if fail and lose all rep]

When you go through first loading room, menu this and then go back and reload save:

Job Thief:
- Steal SP

Job Merchant

Equip + Optimize
Viper Dagger over Forbidden Dagger
Heal HP + SP

Reload Save in second screen to avoid encounter, then go rightward and down steps to Orlick boss.

Orlick:

His normal attack does 355 under Augmentation and Magic Missile does 843, so max damage he can do is about 1200 in back to back turns.

T1: Pom M
T2: Vets x4
T3: SP Steal/Grape M
T4: SP Steal/Grape M (do the pposite of previous turn, use grape m depending on when you get to med-low HP)
T5: SP Steal
T6: Defend
T7: Dagger x3
T8: Vets x4

TP Wellspring, Therion C3

Run into Tavern and steal Bottle of Wine
Mash A to give to Pauper

Run into Tavern
Run down to Southern Wellspring Sands and do cutscene

TP Wellspring
Go to tavern and steal from Barkeeper

Enter Black Market, go left (do NOT have Forbidden Dagger on for this next fight)

2x Darius's Lackey + 1x Darius's Henchman:
T1: Fire L

Job Merchant and put on Hang Tough:
- Rest
- Trade Tempest
Hang Tough ON

Heal HP
Save before Gareth

Gareth:
T1: HH Mercs
T2: Vets x3
T3: Rev Jam [if you go last this round and first next round, you can Pom L instead]
T4: Vets x4
T5: Vets x3

TP Northreach, Therion C4

Enter Tavern to steal Pom L from left NPC (55%) and get Master's Longbow if you are level 23, otherwise delay after battle

Heal HP, save (very small chance you wipe due to crits that can hit 980 each from 3 enemies)

2x Darius's Subordinate + 1x Darius's Underling:
T1: Light L
T2: Thunder L

Get Refreshing Jam [reenter house]
Go up and do Lorn cutscene
Get Ice M

TP Marsalim
Steal from NPC near Weapon Store (55% steals, skip if Rep fails and just hope for EI procs later if needed):
- Pom L
- Pom L

Job:
- Thief + Armor Corrosive
- Dancer + 3 skills to learn Eye for an Eye
- Merchant + skills until you learn Hang Tough, if you haven't already
Support Skills:
- Evasive Maneuvers
- Endless Items
- Hang Tough
- Eye for an Eye
Weapon Shop:
Equipment:
- Unequip Sword, Spear, Bow
- Forbidden Dagger on over Viper Dagger
- Enchanted Circlect on over Oasis Hat
Sell all equipment/items greater than or equal to 1k (keep Poms/Jams)

TP Northreach

Steal 2 Pom M (80%) from leftmost NPC
If you do not have > 160k, steal and sell Fool's Gold Ore from person next to them too (100%) to sell

Trigger Thief cutscene
Steal Thief's 55% Pom L

Steal his 3% and keep rep resetting as needed.

We want 150k going into Lorn, though 151-152k is nice for HHB option so always stay above that. If you get below it, you can steal and sell 65-100% stuff around the city like Ice Amulet. You can also just Collect Darius toward the end of the fight.
[For reference, my sample video was around 155k+]

After getting 3% Steal, enter Lorn and go to Darius
In second screen:
- get Pom L and exit and reenter

Heal HP + SP
Save before Darius

Darius Boss (98,923 HP, weak to Spear/Dagger/Axe/Ice/Wind, 4 -> 6 -> 8 shields)

Most of this fight depends on turn order and Eye for an Eye RNG, so it's not possible to make a full script. I will detail the general strategy.

The goal is to do the AI Loop Glitch on Darius:
- in a round, Therion goes last or second last and for next round, goes in-between Darius's 2 actions (and Darius is around 48-54% Steal/Collect ish and low shields)
- for his earlier action, Therion damages Darius to 55% Steal/Collect or more
- for his in-between action next round, Therion breaks Darius
This loops Darius into a shield shift and sweep every turn, so you can freely use Sidesteps slowly to build up BP and dodge.

Easiest way to do this with reliability IMO is to set up a lot of Sidesteps for a buffer, wait until he Item Steals to break him, and do two sets of broken Vets as well plus chip him to 47% Steal/Collect, get his shields to 1-3, tab to Sword so Eye for an Eye does not break accidentally early, get 4-5 BP maintained, watch for the right "go last/second last action, go inbetween action next round" then Vets x3/4 to do 5-8% Steal/Collect on his unbroken self, let him take his action, then tab to Dagger and boosted normal attacks to break and trigger loop.

After looping him, you'll want to setup and do an Armor Corrosive'd Vets x4
Then Collect him for 30k if needed.
Then do another Armor Corrosive'd Vets x4 to finish him.

The first half from 5% Steal/Collect up to 54% Steal/Collect is the hard part.
You will want to use Pom L aggressively to setup Sidestep x4 and Sidestep x3 back to back.
Use Grape M after each of his fire attacks.
If you are out of BP, you can use Rev Jam to get BP and heal at the same time for efficiency.

Standard start of battle is hoping for an Eye for an Eye hit from his first two attacks on Therion.
(You can adapt the opening by using Sidestep x2/Sidestep x1 instead to stall for Eye for an Eye breaks or redo fight as needed.)
Then:

T1: Defend/Sidestep
T2: Dagger x3 to break
T3: Rev Jam/Pom L
T4: Sidestep x4
T5: Grape M/Sidestep if undamaged
T6: Sidestep x4
T7: Sidestep/Grape M (Darius does Fire as one of his 2 actions so Grape M if you are damaged)

And then adapt from there.
You will want to break him asap after he uses "Steal Items" to lock you out of your items. Do not be afraid to use Dagger x4 if needed.
However, it is better to wait for him to "Steal Items" before breaking him, as that maximizes the time until he "Steals Items" again.

You will want to break him twice and do:
- Vets x4 or x3
- Vets x4 or x3
Depends on how damage, check Steal or Collect %
One of these should be "Armor Corrosive'd" beforehand.
If you cannot, it is fine, just use Wind L or other L/M Stones to bring him closer to 55% Steal/Collect

Vets x4 is about 17% Steal/Collect when broken
Vets x3 is about 15% Steal/Collect when broken
AC is just 1.5x the above numbers
2700 non weakness L Stone is about 3% Steal/Collect
Reminder your Forbidden Dagger cuts Fire and Shadow L in half to 1350 btw (more reliable than Viper poison)
Reduce BP as needed to not overdamage him.

Try to have a lot of Sidesteps setup before getting close to 55%, preferably 7-9.

We have one set up of 30k to use as a single Vets x1, which does 4600 ish and is worth about 4.5% Steal/Collect.
Use this when he's at 51% ish to bring him to 55% when turn conditions match up with the above instructions.

Use Sidestep x1 to stall and have some BP ready to break him.
If his shields get low and he's close to 55%, then tab to Sword so your Eye for an Eye does not break him.

Through the battle early on, you can use Steal SP or regular Dagger as needed as well as Stones for chip damage or for breaking.

After he is looped and you do one AC'd Vets x4, you can boost to Collect 30k
Keep in mind he only does 1 attack at a time after being looped, but it is better to just get a bulk of Sidesteps up via Pom L/M/Rev.

In the first half, use Pom L aggressively, and do not hesitate on Rev Jam too.

Be wary of his fire; he can do will o wisp and hellfire in back to back rounds IIRC, so you should heal after each.
Do no be afraid of using boosted Sidestep x2 or x3 as needed too. Efficiency is good but survival and aggression is more important.

Vets x4 unbroken is 2kx4 which is about 8k and a bit higher than 8%, so it is a way to bring him from 47% Collect/Steal to 55% in a single hit while having extra leeway in damage before reaching 55%. (Can stall with 1 Sidestep at a time, hoping for good turn order.)

Also note you can Spear or Bandit, depending on break, to reduce your DPS if you don't want to over damage him to 55%.

Level 23 Therion has 2553 HP here, so Hang Tough triggers at 766 HP.

We have enough to afford 1-3 HH Bandits if his shields don't correlate well in the second half - use those as/if needed.
Also, if you can situate yourself to have him break himself via Eye for an Eye, you can get 2T of break to setup AC if needed.

This battle may take a few attempts as it is turn order reliant, but be patient and keep at it.

Time is when last cutscene skip bar fills up before credits. GG.

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Improvements Section (notes section for myself/other routers, ignore this if you aren't interested in improving the route):

- Consider: use extra Vets x1/x2 if needed for extra Darius chip damage before 50% if needed and then just Collect him (so of the 150k we have entering him, use 120k to trigger AI Loop then use 30k for Armor Corrosive'd damage before Collecting another 30k and finishing him with that), consider Thunder L in east then south of Wellspring in middle of map for Moonstruck Pirates or C2 encounter (or use EI'd Stone for C2 encounter), consider Fire L in Wellspring after discovering Bandit's hideout (saw this as an idea for a diff Therion route and makes sense imo), consider using Arcane Knife or Makeshift Dagger on Darius so you can sell Forbidden Dagger for extra money, don't need HH Bandit money going to Darius and only using Dagger/Spear is possible though it's useful for breaking one of the random encounters so 150.8k is probably the minimum we want entering Lorn instead, and lastly test if Vets x3 would finish Orlick. Also means aside from Fire L in C2 and Light+Thunder L in C3, we can use all stones on our grind as needed, including M stones. Merchant can be used for grind too since HHM->M Stone breaks/defeats sentinel group but it doesn't work as well on Thief, but it's an idea to consider.