Just Political Violence

14 Jun 2017	Alexandria, Virginia	1	5	TER-left	shooting attack targeting Republican lawmakers at a baseball field; 5 injured including U.S. Representative Steve Scalise and 1 police officer; attacker was fatally shot
Monfd
drholiday: I have some questions for you.
fierygt
yep.  so you have 1 shooting you can point to, to blame on a 'lefty'.
drholiday
so
Monfd
At which point is it justified to use violence against political leaders?
drholiday
you have one on a righyt
drholiday
there are only 5 or 6 terror attacks yearly
Monfd
drholiday: 71% of political violence in the last 15 years has been from the Right.
Monfd
26% from Islamists.
Monfd
3% from the Left.
fierygt
you can have that one.  meanwhile, just last week, 2 black people were killed for being black and 11 jewish people were killed for being jewish and 11 pipebombs were sent for being 'enemies of trump'.
drholiday
https://www.livetradingnews.com/harrisburg-pennsylvania-islamic-terrorist-attack-67409.html
Buzzard
~ Harrisburg, Pennsylvania was an Islamic Terrorist Attack - Live Trading News
drholiday
11 pipebombs that didnt work
drholiday
confirmed by a bomb expert
horncell has changed mode: +v Monfd
fierygt
that they didn't WORK is not relevant.
Monfd
drholiday: I have some questions for you.
drholiday
ofcourse it is
drholiday
nobody dies if you send fake bombs
fierygt
they were still SENT.
Monfd
At which point is it justified to use violence against political leaders?
drholiday
i could send you a bullet letter with a warning
drholiday
doesnt kill you
drholiday
never
Monfd
drholiday: 71% of political violence in the last 15 years has been from the Right.
Monfd
26% from Islamists.
Monfd
3% from the Left.
drholiday
lies
drholiday
1/3 has been from the right
fierygt
chris wray said they were NOT hoax devices.  meaning they could have caused damage at any point.
Monfd
https://qz.com/1182778/the-far-right-was-responsible-for-the-majority-of-extremist-killings-in-2017/
Buzzard
~ The far-right was responsible for the majority of extremist killings in 2017 — Quartz
Monfd
You are incorrect @ 1/3.
Monfd
Citation requested for your 1/3 claim.
Monfd
drholiday: If you send a bullet with a warning, you will be charged with serious felonies.
Monfd
Depending on the message, one of those charges could be terrorism.
drholiday
Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists are the second deadliest group by ideology, as they account for 6.6% of all terrorist murders during this time. The 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the second deadliest terrorist attack in U.S. history, killed 168 people and accounted for 77% of all the murders committed by Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists. The chance of being murdered in a Nationalist or Right Wing terrorist attack was about 1 in
drholiday
33 million per year.
drholiday
https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/08/21/which-ideology-has-inspired-the-most-murders-in-terrorist-attacks-on-u-s-soil/#68b7c5941e74
Buzzard
~ Which Ideology Has Inspired The Most Murders In Terrorist Attacks On U.S. Soil?
drholiday
i rather go with forbes
fierygt
Wray says each of the pipe bombs contained materials that could react and cause a potential explosion.
drholiday
than someone who uses a headlight right wingers didi it Monfd
19:36 drholiday
6.6 ^%
drholiday
Terrorists inspired by Nationalist and Right Wing ideology have killed about 10 times as many people as Left Wing terrorists since 1992. Terrorists with unknown or other motivations were the least deadly. Islamists swamped them all.
drholiday
ilsammers are number one
drholiday
Left Wing terrorists killed only 23 people in terrorist attacks during this time, about 0.7% of the total number of murders, but 13 since the beginning of 2016. Nationalist and Right Wing terrorists have only killed five since then, including Charlottesville. Regardless, the annual chance of being murdered by a Left Wing terrorist was about 1 in 330 million per year.
drholiday
left number 3
Monfd
drholiday: The numbers change over different time periods.
drholiday
1 islamers 2 right winger 3 lefties
drholiday
so
drholiday
try again
Monfd
For example, Left violence has been increasing in the las few years.
fierygt
just because you fuck up, and get caught in the middle of robbing a bank, doesn't mean you ain't committing a crime.  and just because you failed to murder people with pipebombs, don't mean you didn't TRY.
Monfd
Your time period, from the article, extends to 1992.
drholiday
i dont care for your wishy washy
drholiday
77%
Monfd
drholiday: I put you on ignore.
Monfd
Reason: You announced you're not interested in debate.
Monfd
fierygt: The 12 target that were sent bombs last week would count for terrorism attacks, but not fatalities due to terrorism.
Monfd
This is how a serious person would nuance the facts, unlike drholiday.
Monfd
Who mentioned the possibility of doing a felony by sending a bullet.
Monfd
You'd want to keep track of terrorism events, and fatalities that derive from terrorist events.
Monfd
Terrorist events from the Right tend to be more fatal than those from the Left.
fierygt
you won't answer.  you can't give a count or specifics on any 'leftwing' terrorist attacks IN america.
Monfd
From drholiday's own citation, in the 1992 period, the Right did 9.4x more terrorism than the Left.
Monfd
From 1974-Present, it's about 30 to 1.
Monfd
In recent years, it's been closing.
Monfd
Also, notably, the Left doing violence right now is more justified than the Right.
Monfd
Why?
Monfd
The SCOTUS is GOP.
Monfd
The POTUS is GOP.
Monfd
The Senate is GOP.
Monfd
The House is GOP.
Monfd
A majority of governorships are GOP.
Monfd
A majority of state legislatures are GOP.
fierygt
i already did answer that stupid shit.  i don't want mobs.  which is why i am voting against the 'lock her up' crowd.
Monfd
However, the GOP is a minority faction who got these wins through anti-democratic means, e.g. gerrymandering and voter suppression.
Monfd
Further, Trump is fascist and the Congress under the GOP is not holding him accountable.
Monfd
According to the Declaration of Independence, at some point, you can use violence against your leaders.
Monfd
(See 2nd paragraph)
fierygt
unemployment was under 5% when obama left.  so i voted for jobs just fine.
Monfd
I haven't thought violence was justified yet, before the 2018 election, personally -- that is, I am against the shooting of the GOP members at the baseball field.
Monfd
I do, however, think violence is quickly becoming justified given the GOP's behavior.
Monfd
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transien
Monfd
t causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
Monfd
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The
Monfd
history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
Monfd
The GOP is very close to this standard, in my view.
Monfd
One more stolen election will push them past the line, in my view.
Monfd
For some, that was after the 2016 stolen elections.
Monfd
And I can understand that.
Monfd
This is why it's important to have non-factional government.
pyn has left IRC (Read error: Operation timed out)
Monfd
When it is non-factional, we can condemn all acts of violence against our political leaders.
Monfd
When it is factional, different people will start to do violence against the government.
Monfd
One final point: The shooting of the GOP members is categorically different than other acts of terrorism, as those people were IN government.
Monfd
Going after people who you're annoyed with that aren't in government, such as the targets of the assassination attempts last week, will be much harder to justify.
fierygt
i seem to recall trump bragging about a 'job surplus'.  meaning we actually need more qualified people to FILL jobs.  but don't let that inconsistency get in the way of your dogma.
Monfd
You'll have to leverage their being criminals without a chance to get non-violent justice.
Monfd
(They're not criminals; they're just targets in GOP conspiracy theories)
Monfd
Again, to be CLEAR, the current GOP is traitorous.
Monfd
They've conspired with Russian enemies to attack the American democracy.
Monfd
This includes senior leadership of the GOP including Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and Donald Trump.
fierygt
there have been a couple of businesses that have actually closed around nashville.  because they had demand...but no employees.  it's counterintutive, but job surplus does not fix all.
Monfd
Shooting at some people is much, much easier to justify than sending a bomb to Hillary Clinton, who is not in power.
Monfd
Again, we are instructed to do violence against our leaders -- at some point -- by the American ideal of democracy.
Monfd
It is insufficient to show that a person intended violence against a political leader to show their actions wrong.
Monfd
For example, shooting at Nazis in 1943 at Birkenau is justified.
Monfd
It is not justified in 1946.
Monfd
In 1946, non-Nazis were in power and there was a mechanism in place to non-violently manage their crimes.
Monfd
In 1943, no such system is in place and so the power resorts back to the people as was the case pre-government.
Monfd
This is all consistent with the political ideology underpinning American democracy.
Monfd
Here's the real deal for people interested in philosophy, unless they're pacifists: You should do political violence sometimes.
Monfd
It's hard to know when that is, it's easy to get it wrong, and even doing it justly may induce mental states that cause future actions to be unjustified.
Monfd
Our civilization -- understandably -- wants to minimize political violence. And, so, when each of us were children in American schools we were taught to never do political violence.
Monfd
But that teaching was wrong.
Monfd
The actual teaching we should have received is 'Never do political violence when your government is just'.
Monfd
But our government is no longer just.
Monfd
Here's another real deal for philosophers: You can't write everything down.
Monfd
What's the point of guiding documents like constitutions? To be a roadmap for a broad range of game states the society can find itself in.
Monfd
But it's never going to be able to account for every situation with sufficient nuance.
Monfd
This is especially true if you subscribe to a fractal model of ethics and the law, which I personally find quite compelling.
Monfd
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2157804
Buzzard
~ The Law is a Fractal: The Attempt to Anticipate Everything by Andrew Stumpff Morrison :: SSRN
Monfd
What does this mean?
Monfd
It means none of our guiding documents have accounted for every circumstances that comes up with our government.
Monfd
Should you ever kill the president? Generally, no.
Monfd
And what if the president conspires with Russians?
Monfd
Generally, no.
Monfd
What if there is no special counsel investigation, or the special counsel is bombed by Russians agents?
Monfd
It's hard to know, right.
Monfd
It depends on just how serious that president's crimes are, odds of future harm, etc.
Monfd
But here's the real deal: Of course you kill the president in some cases, right.
Monfd
For example, Adolf Hitler.
Monfd
You can certainly kill Adolf Hitler in 1943.
Monfd
And you can probably kill him 1935.
Monfd
But can you kill him in 1932?
Monfd
I don't know.
Monfd
I don't know the earliest you can kill Adolf Hitler, but it happens at some point.
Monfd
And if you have seriously thought about how to justly do political violence against your leaders, fascists, despots, etc., you're just gonna be shocked by it.
Monfd
But that doesn't mean you have the right view.
Monfd
if you haven't*
Monfd
The truth is that the average person is probably not smart enough to figure out when to justly do violence.
Monfd
The average human mind is way too factional to try and do meta-violence to sustain a republic, as opposed to partisan violence to empower their group.