Gender and sex with glkfan and euphony

euphony__
Its pretty clear you have nothing but a gish gallop of nonsensical terf talking points, but I will say this, bonus points for having such bizarre ones
13:53 zeee-away
that's not a gish gallo
euphony__
Lana Del Rey.... not the best singer, but love her songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLCPmF-uxb4

glkfan
euphony__ https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690
zeee-away
two sentences is actually the opposite of a gish gallop
euphony__
glkfan yah you posted that yesterday but you can do that for any sort of bigotry. I am sure some shlomo back in 1180 CE actually comitted host desecration too. I remember speaking to you a few months ago and it was very clear you don't have a problem with trans kids, you have a problem with trans people
euphony__
like your freak out over being called cisgender
euphony__
zeee-away this is not the first time I dealt with glkfan
dockside
euphony__: Do you think there are any issues with the term TERF?
glkfan
i don't have a problem with trans people, i have a problem with pseudoscience and gay conversion therapy
dockside
For example, a recent poll was done and almost no 'Latin/Hispanic' people refer to themselves or even heard of the term 'LatinX'.
euphony__
yes you do, remember your freak out yesterday about trans people forcing penis on lesbians?
glkfan
i don't think they all do that
glkfan
lol
dockside
Though, 'LatinX' is sort of the default academic/journalism term.
euphony__
dockside, fair point, but I don't respect transphobia enough to use their preferred labels
dockside
Which is kind of weird, right, because people not in a group are calling that group something different than the group calls themselves.
glkfan
that's only AGP creepos
glkfan
but a lot of unknowing people adopt their talking points
dockside
I've literally never heard a single person call themself a 'TERF'.
glkfan
yeah because the term is inaccurate
glkfan
feminists don't exclude trans people, they exclude males
euphony__
yah autogynophelia isn't a thing. can you show me the ntry in the DSM? I will wait
dockside
euphony__: That's an interesting point -- I agree that we have far less duties to groups who are doing objectionable behavior.
zeee-away
its a slur
glkfan
so female trans people are included
zeee-away
we try not to use slurs in this channel
fred__w to dock :  not interested  bye for now
glkfan
"AGP isn't real" omg
glkfan
sorry but that's demonstratably false
euphony__
glkfan honestly I don't feel like entertaining you
glkfan
i don't think they're a good representation of trans people, but it's undeniable that they're claiming the title........
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dockside
I think you guys are talking too fast and listening too little for this topic.
dockside
That's my quick assessment.
dockside
I think instead of 'TERF' I might prefer 'gender essentialist'.
euphony__
oh my god Lana can't sing.... she is a really good song writer tho
zeee-away
using terf is easier because its lazy and you can just refute someone by calling them a name
glkfan
dockside that's nonsensical, "TERFs" completely denounce the concept of gender
euphony__
She is like Sia in that sense
dockside
Gender essentialism is probably the status quo position, historically.
dockside
Therefore, I do not understand the inclusion of 'radical' to their position.
euphony__
It depends on where and when. Gender is a social construct so is varied like other aspects of society
dockside
They're quite keen on maintaining historical notions and structures.
glkfan
dockside, abolishing sex roles and stereotypes is hardly maintaining the status quo
euphony__
The history of gender and sexuality is really, really fascinating.
dockside
glkfan: I'm thinking about that.
dockside
euphony__: Most definitely; I'm not too educated on those topics.
dockside
I think the typical person doesn't appreciate how little they know on those topics.
glkfan
radical feminists acknowledge the biological reality of sex, and seek to abolish the roles and stereotypes associated with them
dockside
glkfan: I think it could be said that 'TERFs' deny gender, in that they would model human variation in that regard based off sex and personality, primarily.
euphony__
This year I did a really deep dive into queer history and it is really amazing how so much we take for granted about gender and sex is only about a hundred years old.
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dockside
glkfan: However, opposing schools do posit a term gender, and so I think a meta-analysis should include that term.
Bosnjak1988
What do you think about emotions and thoughts one does not want to have? What do you consider to be their origin?
glkfan
sex is a real physical trait with real consequences like any other physical trait
dockside
In that context, since they don't discuss gender, they consider it essential/fixed, which is equivalent to it not existing.
glkfan
a short person will have a different life from a tall person
dockside
euphony__: Can you give a couple of examples?
dockside
My sense is that you are correct.
euphony__
like the idea of separating us into separate biological categories of male and female, or saying there is a dinstinct male or female psychology came out of late nineteenth century eugenics
dockside
glkfan: I don't think I would say sex is a 'physical trait'.
glkfan
??
glkfan
how on earth not?
dockside
I would say sex is a biological mode, i.e. collection of traits.
glkfan
trait, collection of traits, whatever
glkfan
is hair color a collection of traits because you have more than one hair?
dockside
I think that distinction is pretty important.
euphony__
Dockside (laniakea?) good books on this are "The Invention of Heterosexuality" "A Queer History of the United States" and "Sexual Politics and Sexual identities"
14:03 glkfan
use the word phenotype if you want, doesn't make a difference to me
dockside
glkfan: I believe hair color is controlled by relatively few genes.
glkfan
still a real trait with real consequences
dockside
I believe 'sex' is controlled by hundreds of genes.
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euphony__
[17:03] <+dockside> I would say sex is a biological mode, i.e. collection of traits. <-- that idea excludes a lot of cases, like those who are intersex or gender nonconforming, and was a product of eugenics. Obviously the traits exist, but the boxes of "male" and "female" is what I mean
euphony__
it came into being for the same reaons and at the same time as scientific homophobia
glkfan
that's so insane i don't even know what to say lol
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glkfan
pretty sure humans 100,000 years ago at least knew what sex was
dockside
euphony__: I don't think I agree those cases are excluded.
dockside
They're in a different mode.
dockside
I didn't mention how many modes there are.
glkfan
and most individuals with an "intersex condition" are still pretty squarely one sex or the other, extraordinarily few cases have any real ambiguity
dockside
glkfan: As I have a degree in molecular biology, you don't need to convince me that biology is real.
glkfan
and those are developmental abnormalities, not other sexes/genders
glkfan
mammals have two sexes
dockside
glkfan: I think you misunderstand the terms of our differences in perspective.
euphony__
Dockside, I meant excluded at the time (I was referring to about 1880-1960)
glkfan
dockside do you think the concept of sex was invented by eugenecists in the 1800s?
dockside
glkfan: I disagree you can exclusively model the human experience by drawing on our shared evolution with non-humans.
glkfan
not a disagreement because i never claimed that
dockside
I think the complexity of the human mind coupled with the complexity of human culture means humans are having some experience never before seen on Earth.
dockside
And I think some of those experiences are in the sex/gender space.
glkfan
sure, there are still two sexes
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dockside
There are two sexes in non-humans -- that seems true.
glkfan
how is sex determination in humans different from any other mammal?
glkfan
in humans, putting on a dress makes you female?
euphony__
dockside there are some funny stories tho, the word heterosexual originally meant transgender and pansexual. The word Straight was a word co opted from the gay community, until about WW2 no one in america defined themselves as "I am someone attracted to the opposite gender" it was an invented category
dockside
glkfan: Contemporaneous sex determination, today, is probably primarily driven by genetic data, which is post-1970s.
glkfan
there was no such thing as "transsexual" or "transgender" until HRT and surgery was invented
dockside
Let me pause for three minutes and read what you two are saying.
glkfan
dockside, and how does it differ from that of other mammals?
euphony__
fwiw i have terfy mcterf on ignore
glkfan
being skeptical of giving teenagers hysterectomies makes me such a hateful meanie :'(((
euphony__
there used to be a poster here named Laniakea, i am an astronomy nerd so whenever i read about the super cluster I think of them
CountBasie
euphony__ good you wouldnt want to be triggred by wrong opinions you cant refute
dockside
glkfan: What are your referencing here: "do you think the concept of sex was invented by eugenecists in the 1800s?"
glkfan
[14:04] <+euphony__> [17:03] <+dockside> I would say sex is a biological mode, i.e. collection of traits. <-- that idea excludes a lot of cases, like those who are intersex or gender nonconforming, and was a product of eugenics. Obviously the traits exist, but the boxes of "male" and "female" is what I mean
euphony__
CountBasie am I supposed to care about your opinion?
CountBasie
of course not youre a true believer
euphony__
dockside if you want to learn more about the reasons behind the scientific creation of the gender binary "The Invention of Heterosexuality" and "Sexual Politics, Sexual Communities" are good sources. But I can give you more detail in chat if you like
dockside
euphony__: I didn't know that @ straight, but it makes sense. The dominant groups often don't label their variation is it's just 'The Way'. Dissident groups often create terms for the dominant groups.
dockside
glkfan: The history of 'sex', until the 1970s, would have been based off gross morphology, just like species identification.
dockside
That entire paradigm is largely extinct @ species identification.
euphony__
Dockside yah there was zero self consciousness in America of "I am someone who is attracted to the opposite gender" til WW2, at least, outside of the clinic, before that it was just ... normal life, you screw the opposite gender as naturally as you age or breathe
dockside
If you ask me the current biological definition, I guess it would be based off genomic analysis, which is very recent.
dockside
So we have to be cautious integration historical biological notions into our current framework on this topic.
euphony__
Do you want me to explain the eugenics connection Dockside or no? (also does anyone else have serious deja vu right now or just me?)
dockside
I am interested, yep.
glkfan
species differentiation and sex differentiation are completely different
glkfan
i study evolutionary biology and taxonomy, i know how clades work
glkfan
not possible to even compare that to sex differentiation
yorksbeststudent
i studied ancient rome and greece
glkfan
taxonomy is a family tree
dockside
glkfan: I think part of our core disagreement is that I perceive you to be underestimating the significance of the human mind in the human condition.
euphony__
Dockside, kk, my books are back home so I can't remember names and dates but the tl;dr is in the late 1800s there was a Purity Movement in America which was deeply concerned with the errrrm "problem of black and brown people outbreeding whites", these concerns were echoed in medicine as race theory took hold........
glkfan
how so?
dockside
Humans are pretty weird and novel compared to essentially all organisms that have come before (while also having a deeply shared nature in some other senses).
CountBasie
you study transphobic science terf! you need to read the books i have personally vetted with my non-expertise and written by social and gender studies academics because those fields are not notorious for poor scholarship riddled with hoax studies thatve passed their "peer review" for publication but let.
glkfan
because i don't think wearing makeup and a dress makes you female?
euphony__
suddenly anything that prevented sexual reproduction of the white race was not a personal sin (sodomy), but a medical problem, a disease affecting the whole race, "degeneracy". If men and women did not procreate whites would lose the race war, so medical science was determined to identify and destroy any sexual aberration........
dockside
glkfan: That comment does match the seriousness of our topic.
dockside
doesn't*
euphony__
It became concerned with male and female bodies as ultimately designed for reproduction, scientists started talking about
euphony__
...
euphony__
one second
glkfan
i don't see how one's consciousness has any effect on sex determination?
glkfan
what if i believe and feel *really hard* that my skin was supposed to be a different color?
euphony__
"Women have round lips to entice men, men have muscles to entice women" this was mirrored in psychology which began to stress how man and women are incomplete on their own, but need each other to form one self, to maintain the family unit
glkfan
and also i'm always serious
euphony__
Now whether there are certain biological traits, r neurological traits, between the sexes isnt really what I am addressing, just showing the division and definition of the sexes and genders was maintained by eugenicist concerns
euphony__
this led to "sexual psychopath" laws in the 40s and 50s which strictly and violently enfocrced gender roles
glkfan
you can get people to believe all kinds of things
glkfan
you can get them to believe that god created the earth 6000 years ago
euphony__
for example, in NYC it was illegal for a woman to wear a shirt, tie and pants, or a man to wear a skirt
glkfan
dockside, do you know why the "T" is part of "LGBT" in the first place?
euphony__
it was thought such would lead to the degradation of the white race
dockside
glkfan: To me, the topic is here is a question related to meaning.
euphony__
its why fascists are so intensely queerphobic, they see us as a threat to the race
glkfan
historically, "transsexuals" (as they called themselves) were gay men so traumatized by homophobia that they wanted to change their sex to be straight
euphony__
Dockside, does that help shed some light? i am sleep deprived and not 100% atm
Raven`X
Oh, I forgot that I was here.
glkfan
they were part of LGBT because they were G
euphony__
hi Raven
Raven`X
Hey euphony__.
glkfan
and if you look at any other form of sex change procedures around the world and throughout history, it's ALWAYS connected to "curing" gay people
CountBasie
the t stands for confused crybullies
Raven`X
How's it going?
dockside
euphony__: That is pretty fascinating. That's consistent with my understanding, but I didn't know some of those details.
glkfan
internalized homophobia gets gay people to try to "fix" themselves by changing their sex to become straight
glkfan
it's horrible
euphony__
It is also why there is such fear about "queering children", the idea is the sickness of degeneracy can spread, so our Most Vulnerable Must Be Protected, that being the same kind of fear mongering glkfan likes to indulge in
dockside
glkfan: Are you knowledgable on the status of race in the scientific community?
dockside
I think that my thoughts on sex/gender mirror that debate pretty closely.
euphony__
It is the same thinking that has been used to violently attack queer folks since the Lavender Scare of the early Cold War
glkfan
yes, and that makes no sense
glkfan
lol :|
glkfan
how on earth
glkfan
anyway, did you read that other stuff i said?
euphony__
like, glkfan's "ideas" do not exist in a vacuum, she is expressing the same kind of prejudices that drive antisemitism, hatred of blacks and others
zeee-away
i dont see glkfan fear mongering anything just you constantly making personal attacks to glkfan
dockside
glkfan: I'm concerned about your mental state in regards to this topic.
Raven`X
People believe the most ludicrous things don't they? euphony__
glkfan
how?
dockside
Responses like "that makes no sense" and "lol" are indicative of mental states that are closed to learning.
glkfan
you don't see how it's offensive to claim that because i don't conform to female stereotypes, it makes me less of a female?
euphony__
No, I am framing her prejudices in historical terms. Her unthinking and ignorant attacks on trans people are part of a historical lineage.
CountBasie
thats how euphony trolls. attack everyone that doesnt believe what they believe.... pretend to be a virtuous victim... and eventually rage quit
CountBasie
what a lolcow
dockside
I have not made that claim.
glkfan
yeah, thinking gay people should be allowed to be gay, so regressive and prejudiced
CountBasie
the dude isn't too bright
dockside
glkfan: Strawman fallacy.
euphony__
Every time I engage her she shows a jaw dopping ignorance of queer history
euphony__
but she peddles it anyway
CountBasie
JaW DroPpInG
glkfan
how are you concerned about my mental state?
CountBasie
LIterally ShaKing RN
dockside
glkfan: Are you interested in me detailing my connection between race and sex/gender?
glkfan
after you read the stuff i said before you asked that
dockside
glkfan: I am integrating it into my response.
glkfan
and explain how you're concerned about my mental state
zeee-away sigh
glkfan
ok
dockside
Responses like "that makes no sense" and "lol" are indicative of mental states that are closed to learning.
dockside
That is how I am concerned about your mental state.
glkfan
well i figured it was obvious, but ok
dockside
glkfan: There are clear physical differences in different human lineages that are geographical clustered, yes.
dockside
That is obvious.
dockside
So race is real, then, right?
dockside
No.
glkfan
i mean... just... that race and sex are obviously not the same thing or can possibly be determined in the same way
glkfan
yes i know
glkfan
there's no such thing as 'race', it's some artibrary collection of features, that people put labels on, etc etc
glkfan
but sex is obviously not that
glkfan
or there would be infinite sexes
glkfan
which some people try to claim, but that's pretty stupid and useless
dockside
I encourage you to pause and listen.
glkfan
there are clearly two phenotypes of anatomy related to sexual reproduction
glkfan
omg :| i was going to, but then you started giving me crap for not elaborating earlier
dockside
You're repeating your thesis in the middle of me explaining my understanding.
glkfan
can't do anything right
euphony__
If anyone wants to learn more about the Jewish New Year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkdPGmoeEOQ

euphony__
Rosh Hashana is a nice holiday :) got some apples and honey for the fam
euphony__
Yes Didache...... Be ware of the Arabs!!!! (history joke, not being racist)
glkfan
:|
euphony__
Now
Raven`X
When will that be exactly? The day of atonement.
euphony__
Yom Kippur this year is.... October? I think
euphony__
Didache yes. The days of the Arab States vs Israel are pretty much over
euphony__
The moment Egypt began taking American government money the war mongering came to an end imo
euphony__
Didache.... yah nowadays the issue is terrorism and paramilitaries
euphony__
Barabbas yah it is today and tomorrow
fred__w
dida  how do you see the peace thing wrt the big picture?
euphony__
My mom wants me to do some readings from CHabad.org. Generally a really informative site
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dockside
So, glkfan, there are clear physical differences in different geographical clusters of humans, and yet no races.
dockside
Part of the reason of that is what the meaning of race is.
euphony__
The synagogues here are all closed so I cant go for the high holy days :(
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euphony__
Yah it is 5780 now
euphony__
But tbh Chuck knows more about Judaism than I do lol
dockside
Race, historically, *hasn't* meant 'a collection of physical differences'. Race has been packed in which lots of pseudoscience and folk-biology/folk-sociology piggybacking on interest in *a very small subset of physical differences*.
glkfan
there are still useful, meaningful categories though......... certain ethnicities are more susceptible to or more likely to get certain diseases, for example
dockside
Race is an extremely anti-useful category that is highly non-scientific.
dockside
Race has nothing to do with clustered genomic differences, as I mentioned above.
glkfan
so i should ignore my increased risk for skin cancer
glkfan
ok
dockside
I put you on block for awhile after that comment, glkfan.
dockside
It's an intense strawman fallacy and you've simply expressed too many of those in too short a period of time for it to be correct to continue to engage you on a complex, nuanced topic.
yorksbeststudent
lots of Judaism here
euphony__
ChuckWagon if you want to learn more about Rosh Hashana you should take a look at Chabad.org
euphony__
Chuckwagon that is the one my mom listens to
dockside
glkfan: I will put the block period for two hours at this time.